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b4nny doesn't support iseries
31
#31
55 Frags +

b4nny doesn't support pugchamp because he gets trolled on it for his alien behaviour

b4nny doesn't support pugchamp because he gets trolled on it for his alien behaviour
32
#32
11 Frags +

b4nny has also made it abundantly clear in the past that all he cares about in order to have fun is whether he wins or not, something his team would probably keep doing regardless of how retarded the rules and class limits are.

And all the other people at other levels who don't enjoy a zero restrictions meme format can go fuck themselves.

Let's put it to the test though: https://www.strawpoll.me/18841258

b4nny has also made it abundantly clear in the past that all he cares about in order to have fun is whether he wins or not, something his team would probably keep doing regardless of how retarded the rules and class limits are.

And all the other people at other levels who don't enjoy a zero restrictions meme format can go fuck themselves.

Let's put it to the test though: https://www.strawpoll.me/18841258
33
#33
51 Frags +

cant be the best team in the world if you dont play vs the rest of the world

cant be the best team in the world if you dont play vs the rest of the world
34
#34
83 Frags +

That's fine, he can keep promoting his successful FaceIT service while everyone else has fun in the shitty stagnating pugchamp.

I guess pubbing for 5 hours a day every single day does indeed lead to brain damage.

That's fine, he can keep promoting his successful FaceIT service while everyone else has fun in the shitty stagnating pugchamp.

I guess pubbing for 5 hours a day every single day does indeed lead to brain damage.
35
#35
53 Frags +

I don't understand, why should I care about what banny supports?

I don't understand, why should I care about what banny supports?
36
#36
48 Frags +

b4nny's twitch echo chamber vs tftv echo chamber = pointless discussion

b4nny's twitch echo chamber vs tftv echo chamber = pointless discussion
37
#37
15 Frags +

he should have no problem committing full time to rgl nr6s then no?

he should have no problem committing full time to rgl nr6s then no?
38
#38
14 Frags +
JWBb4nny doesnt support pugchamp because its made to "stagnate" but then his own pugging platform (TF2PL) is the same format of 6s with restrictions? hmm

the difference being people actually play pugchamp

[quote=JWB]b4nny doesnt support pugchamp because its made to "stagnate" but then his own pugging platform (TF2PL) is the same format of 6s with restrictions? hmm[/quote]

the difference being people actually play pugchamp
39
#39
6 Frags +

In an ideal world a no restriction, no class limit based format would certainly create lots of innovation and new strategies and make competitive play more appealing to beginners.
However, in the state the game is currently at (and will realistically stay in for probably eternity because Valve lol), it's not really feasible.
Unless MAYOR weapon and class rebalancing takes place, you can't really convince me that a game where people can run 5 heavies versus 5 engis is more fun to watch or play for anyone nor that it would be less "stagnant" or "slow paced".
I do think that the fact we essentially only play 5CP does exacerbate this, and that other gamemodes might very well develop completely different flows, but it seems there aren't enough maps (being made) to really support this. Naturally, it has also pretty much become consensus that 5CP is, on average, probably still the most fast paced, maybe tied with KOTH, depending on the map.
It honestly just boils down to both how willing people are to stray from what has been established for over a decade, because, if you think about it, there's definitely a reason as to WHY something stays a certain way for a long time.
The same ideas that would bring us some great strats that people could experiment with would in turn immediately develop their own metagame.
People (especially outside of competitive) like to call the current meta "stale", yet do not understand that if there were absolutely no restrictions the meta would simply shift to something most people wouldn't consider any better (Vacc meds, several heavies, 5 scouts, who knows).
Again, ideally, ANY strategy would have a working counter strategy, but as is the nature of class-based games, achieving such balance is nigh impossible.

In an ideal world a no restriction, no class limit based format would certainly create lots of innovation and new strategies and make competitive play more appealing to beginners.
However, in the state the game is currently at (and will realistically stay in for probably eternity because Valve lol), it's not really feasible.
Unless MAYOR weapon and class rebalancing takes place, you can't really convince me that a game where people can run 5 heavies versus 5 engis is more fun to watch or play for anyone nor that it would be less "stagnant" or "slow paced".
I do think that the fact we essentially only play 5CP does exacerbate this, and that other gamemodes might very well develop completely different flows, but it seems there aren't enough maps (being made) to really support this. Naturally, it has also pretty much become consensus that 5CP is, on average, probably still the most fast paced, maybe tied with KOTH, depending on the map.
It honestly just boils down to both how willing people are to stray from what has been established for over a decade, because, if you think about it, there's definitely a reason as to WHY something stays a certain way for a long time.
The same ideas that would bring us some great strats that people could experiment with would in turn immediately develop their own metagame.
People (especially outside of competitive) like to call the current meta "stale", yet do not understand that if there were absolutely no restrictions the meta would simply shift to something most people wouldn't consider any better (Vacc meds, several heavies, 5 scouts, who knows).
Again, ideally, ANY strategy would have a working counter strategy, but as is the nature of class-based games, achieving such balance is nigh impossible.
40
#40
-4 Frags +

Lol

Lol
41
#41
15 Frags +

what even is "moving toward valve's competitive format"? they dont support shit so it is entirely unclear what that means or why it is worth pursuing

what even is "moving toward valve's competitive format"? they dont support shit so it is entirely unclear what that means or why it is worth pursuing
42
#42
Essentials.tf
61 Frags +

I'm disappointed to hear b4nny's thoughts on iSeries. Having worked on i65, which I feel was a decent event, I believe that a lot of what he described and in turn his perception of what the game should look like are infeasible for both events and the esport as a whole.

He is a major critic of the ruleset of iSeries and other LANs like CPG and such, which typically follows this:

  • Timelimit 30
  • Winlimit 5
  • 10 Minute Golden Cap

Having a finite time may encourage parking the bus and one of the key consequences of that is garbage time, but the benefits of it FAR outweigh its drawbacks from an organisational perspectives. If I cast your minds back to i63, you may remember that we had a massive delay for our Grand Finals due to the LoL finals (which have a unlimited timepool) overran its expected runtime by a significant margin. To my understanding, we have almost never overrun on stage finals as we can give a strong estimate for how long a match will take. In a BYOC LAN setting, with multiple matches in a single day, we can confidently say that (technical issues permitting) a BO1 match will be completed within an hour. This makes scheduling when matches happen over a weekend whilst not overworking Staff or Players is actually possible with a massive pool of players, that is if people don't go on constant smoking breaks. ;)

b4nny's perspective on the notion that major international events should be the platform to experiment or something similar is a flawed belief, in my view. Tournaments like iSeries or CPG should be representative of how the esport plays currently, and has remained this way. Whilst I do agree with him that the community does sometimes use LANs as an excuse to not push changes, there are so many more factors that effect rulemaking that perhaps someone in his position may have overlooked. When I worked with ETF2L on changing the Global Whitelist/Experimental Maps, a lot of our decisions were based more on statistics than qualitative feedback, those polls have a bigger influence than random nerd essays on the internet. By taking on statistics, you can draw a more objective conclusion which, reinforced by the admins subjective perspective on rulemaking, creates a decently strong (but not perfect) environment for implementing change. LAN is not the environment to play newly accepted maps that have only been in rotation briefly, and when I worked on i63 the map pool and rulesets were dictated a lot by in depth discussions with admins and feedback from players. I didn't choose the final map pool because "we've always done it that way", I chose it because the players agreed that it would be optimal.

An esport is more than just the game, you have the productions, the leagues, the matchmaking platforms, and more importantly you have the community as a whole. Decisions made should be based on the community perspective, filtered through the people that run the organisations, not made by a select few people who play the game well and have their own uncompromising perspective. That sort of perspective is what I believe was TF2PL's major downfall, as both the people in charge and the organisation on the whole were not particularly willing to push the changes that the community wanted.

Perhaps leagues could do more to encourage more consistent and regular feedback, particularly statistical feedback through polls, etc. But not supporting events, which take a fuck ton of time and effort from so many people, because you feel that the rules don't fit your agenda is pretty poor reasoning.

TL;DR

  • The LAN ruleset isn't just about the game itself, but the event as a whole.
  • Timelimits save Tournament Organisers a lot of headaches.
  • LAN isn't the place to try untested rules and maps
  • Statistical Feedback from a large pool of players is far better than the opinions of a few good players
  • Rulemaking isn't done arbitrarily, lots of thought goes into them
  • An esport is bigger than the game that you play
I'm disappointed to hear b4nny's thoughts on iSeries. Having worked on i65, which I feel was a decent event, I believe that a lot of what he described and in turn his perception of what the game should look like are infeasible for both events and the esport as a whole.

He is a major critic of the ruleset of iSeries and other LANs like CPG and such, which typically follows this:
[list]
[*] Timelimit 30
[*] Winlimit 5
[*] 10 Minute Golden Cap
[/list]
Having a finite time may encourage parking the bus and one of the key consequences of that is garbage time, but the benefits of it FAR outweigh its drawbacks from an organisational perspectives. If I cast your minds back to i63, you may remember that we had a massive delay for our Grand Finals due to the LoL finals (which have a unlimited timepool) overran its expected runtime by a significant margin. To my understanding, we have almost never overrun on stage finals as we can give a strong estimate for how long a match will take. In a BYOC LAN setting, with multiple matches in a single day, we can confidently say that (technical issues permitting) a BO1 match will be completed within an hour. This makes scheduling when matches happen over a weekend whilst not overworking Staff or Players is actually possible with a massive pool of players, that is if people don't go on constant smoking breaks. ;)

b4nny's perspective on the notion that major international events should be the platform to experiment or something similar is a flawed belief, in my view. Tournaments like iSeries or CPG should be representative of how the esport plays currently, and has remained this way. Whilst I do agree with him that the community does sometimes use LANs as an excuse to not push changes, there are so many more factors that effect rulemaking that perhaps someone in his position may have overlooked. When I worked with ETF2L on changing the Global Whitelist/Experimental Maps, a lot of our decisions were based more on statistics than qualitative feedback, those polls have a bigger influence than random nerd essays on the internet. By taking on statistics, you can draw a more objective conclusion which, reinforced by the admins subjective perspective on rulemaking, creates a decently strong (but not perfect) environment for implementing change. LAN is not the environment to play newly accepted maps that have only been in rotation briefly, and when I worked on i63 the map pool and rulesets were dictated a lot by in depth discussions with admins and feedback from players. I didn't choose the final map pool because "we've always done it that way", I chose it because the players agreed that it would be optimal.

An esport is more than just the game, you have the productions, the leagues, the matchmaking platforms, and more importantly you have the community as a whole. Decisions made should be based on the community perspective, filtered through the people that run the organisations, not made by a select few people who play the game well and have their own uncompromising perspective. That sort of perspective is what I believe was TF2PL's major downfall, as both the people in charge and the organisation on the whole were not particularly willing to push the changes that the community wanted.

Perhaps leagues could do more to encourage more consistent and regular feedback, particularly statistical feedback through polls, etc. But not supporting events, which take a fuck ton of time and effort from so many people, because you feel that the rules don't fit your agenda is pretty poor reasoning.

[b]TL;DR[/b]
[list]
[*] The LAN ruleset isn't just about the game itself, but the event as a whole.
[*] Timelimits save Tournament Organisers a lot of headaches.
[*] LAN isn't the place to try untested rules and maps
[*] Statistical Feedback from a large pool of players is far better than the opinions of a few good players
[*] Rulemaking isn't done arbitrarily, lots of thought goes into them
[*] An esport is bigger than the game that you play
[/list]
43
#43
26 Frags +
DrHappinessTL;DR
  • The LAN ruleset isn't just about the game itself, but the event as a whole.
  • Timelimits save Tournament Organisers a lot of headaches.
  • LAN isn't the place to try untested rules and maps
  • Statistical Feedback from a large pool of players is far better than the opinions of a few good players
  • Rulemaking isn't done arbitrarily, lots of thought goes into them
  • An esport is bigger than the game that you play

God speed, sir.

[quote=DrHappiness]
[b]TL;DR[/b]
[list]
[*] The LAN ruleset isn't just about the game itself, but the event as a whole.
[*] Timelimits save Tournament Organisers a lot of headaches.
[*] LAN isn't the place to try untested rules and maps
[*] Statistical Feedback from a large pool of players is far better than the opinions of a few good players
[*] Rulemaking isn't done arbitrarily, lots of thought goes into them
[*] An esport is bigger than the game that you play
[/list][/quote]
God speed, sir.
44
#44
-11 Frags +

I think this is the best version (or nearly the best version) of 6s we could get. There are so many items and class combinations to try but ultimately what's going to happen is certain combinations are going to be a MUST HAVE (i think jarate + mad milk + vac is the must-have setup). i cant imagine a map where that wouldnt completely nuke a team going thru a choke without uber or a pyro (but then again its against a scout and sniper that are anti pyro). most ppl have their scouts offclass on last to heavy, engie or pyro for a reason and that is to DEFEND last (cause a stalemate). unbanning these problem unlocks wouldnt make this game enjoyable (or even winnable at that point). scouts speed up the game for the better so why would we unban strategies that will slow the game down (or restrict teams to only having one scout that will need to basically never die like demo or med for utility). we should be developing maps (or changing current ones) that will fix the stalemate parts of the game (easier soldier bombs for example) or be more willing to take risks. if we change our mindsets of how to break a stalemate instead of how to make the game worse, like idk running a heavy for a post uber after you take an exchange, or even TAKING AN EXCHANGE, would be a good start.

I think this is the best version (or nearly the best version) of 6s we could get. There are so many items and class combinations to try but ultimately what's going to happen is certain combinations are going to be a MUST HAVE (i think jarate + mad milk + vac is the must-have setup). i cant imagine a map where that wouldnt completely nuke a team going thru a choke without uber or a pyro (but then again its against a scout and sniper that are anti pyro). most ppl have their scouts offclass on last to heavy, engie or pyro for a reason and that is to DEFEND last (cause a stalemate). unbanning these problem unlocks wouldnt make this game enjoyable (or even winnable at that point). scouts speed up the game for the better so why would we unban strategies that will slow the game down (or restrict teams to only having one scout that will need to basically never die like demo or med for utility). we should be developing maps (or changing current ones) that will fix the stalemate parts of the game (easier soldier bombs for example) or be more willing to take risks. if we change our mindsets of how to break a stalemate instead of how to make the game worse, like idk running a heavy for a post uber after you take an exchange, or even TAKING AN EXCHANGE, would be a good start.
45
#45
eXtelevision
-10 Frags +

I feel like MM 6s is gtg with a Vaccinator ban. It pains me to say it but that seems to be the most troublesome thing in the format atm that Valve needs to address. Personally I am down to see the game devolve into whatever craziness is most powerful even if that is Vaccinator, but I realize some people have serious issues with the weapon and it does seem oppressively powerful due to its current balance and mechanics.

I really enjoy the MM 6s format overall and appreciate playing Payload on it. I think it's the evolution of Highlander -> Prolander -> ? and could unite the two halves of the competitive community.

B4nny I think shares some of these thoughts, I was ribbing him because I want to see more MM 6s stuff. If he really believes in it then he could help kick start it instead of kicking insomnia. I need to be better myself about trying to organize MM 6s stuff.

Gravel Pit anyone?

I feel like MM 6s is gtg with a Vaccinator ban. It pains me to say it but that seems to be the most troublesome thing in the format atm that Valve needs to address. Personally I am down to see the game devolve into whatever craziness is most powerful even if that is Vaccinator, but I realize some people have serious issues with the weapon and it does seem oppressively powerful due to its current balance and mechanics.

I really enjoy the MM 6s format overall and appreciate playing Payload on it. I think it's the evolution of Highlander -> Prolander -> ? and could unite the two halves of the competitive community.

B4nny I think shares some of these thoughts, I was ribbing him because I want to see more MM 6s stuff. If he really believes in it then he could help kick start it instead of kicking insomnia. I need to be better myself about trying to organize MM 6s stuff.

Gravel Pit anyone?
46
#46
54 Frags +

the very last post ever made on this forum is going to be someone wondering how to make this game an esport

the very last post ever made on this forum is going to be someone wondering how to make this game an esport
47
#47
14 Frags +

mad becuz his PC rentals werent paid for him this year

mad becuz his PC rentals werent paid for him this year
48
#48
107 Frags +

this isn't even worth a conversation. it's a 12 year old (albeit fun and addictive) game. it's never, ever going to be a legitimate esport. if valve wants to make a class based shooter esport, they're going to just make a new game. they will not go "hey, lets dust off that game from 2007 and pit it against apex legends, fortnite, csgo, etc." because they'd look like fucking idiots, it would fail miserably, and it makes 0 sense. just enjoy the time the game has left.

also realize banny is the only person out there making a living off of tf2. he will do whatever he thinks can benefit him the most financially, which makes sense. but for the 99.99% of people just wanting to compete in a game for fun, the concern is with keeping the game enjoyable.

this isn't even worth a conversation. it's a 12 year old (albeit fun and addictive) game. it's never, ever going to be a legitimate esport. if valve wants to make a class based shooter esport, they're going to just make a new game. they will not go "hey, lets dust off that game from 2007 and pit it against apex legends, fortnite, csgo, etc." because they'd look like fucking idiots, it would fail miserably, and it makes 0 sense. just enjoy the time the game has left.

also realize banny is the only person out there making a living off of tf2. he will do whatever he thinks can benefit him the most financially, which makes sense. but for the 99.99% of people just wanting to compete in a game for fun, the concern is with keeping the game enjoyable.
49
#49
9 Frags +

id be happy if our scene was what it was in 2013 the whole time

id be happy if our scene was what it was in 2013 the whole time
50
#50
18 Frags +

burger logic nomnom

burger logic nomnom
51
#51
6 Frags +

dont show up to copenhagen @b4nny

dont show up to copenhagen @b4nny
52
#52
-4 Frags +

b4nny has always had retarded ideas
mechanically and in game he's very good, but that doesn't mean your ideas are good
he also only does things that benefit him because after all it's how he makes money
remember faceit? lol

b4nny has always had retarded ideas
mechanically and in game he's very good, but that doesn't mean your ideas are good
he also only does things that benefit him because after all it's how he makes money
remember faceit? lol
53
#53
25 Frags +

I just don't understand how not showing up to the biggest TF2 LAN tournaments we have would help the game grow. If anything showing up at the biggest tournaments and help them get more exposure would help the game way more. Just my 2 cents.

I just don't understand how [u]not[/u] showing up to the biggest TF2 LAN tournaments we have would help the game grow. If anything showing up at the biggest tournaments and help them get more exposure would help the game way more. Just my 2 cents.
54
#54
RGB LAN
57 Frags +
marmadukeGRYLLSthis isn't even worth a conversation. it's a 12 year old (albeit fun and addictive) game. it's never, ever going to be a legitimate esport. if valve wants to make a class based shooter esport, they're going to just make a new game. they will not go "hey, lets dust off that game from 2007 and pit it against apex legends, fortnite, csgo, etc." because they'd look like fucking idiots, it would fail miserably, and it makes 0 sense. just enjoy the time the game has left.

also realize banny is the only person out there making a living off of tf2. he will do whatever he thinks can benefit him the most financially, which makes sense. but for the 99.99% of people just wanting to compete in a game for fun, the concern is with keeping the game enjoyable.

This is easily the most important post in this thread.

[quote=marmadukeGRYLLS]this isn't even worth a conversation. it's a 12 year old (albeit fun and addictive) game. it's never, ever going to be a legitimate esport. if valve wants to make a class based shooter esport, they're going to just make a new game. they will not go "hey, lets dust off that game from 2007 and pit it against apex legends, fortnite, csgo, etc." because they'd look like fucking idiots, it would fail miserably, and it makes 0 sense. just enjoy the time the game has left.

also realize banny is the only person out there making a living off of tf2. he will do whatever he thinks can benefit him the most financially, which makes sense. but for the 99.99% of people just wanting to compete in a game for fun, the concern is with keeping the game enjoyable.[/quote]

This is easily the most important post in this thread.
55
#55
-16 Frags +

this is getting tiring why dont we look at the bigger picture and just come together as a collective and develop our own game. Like for real how much does it cost to run a video game design company? someone has to take the initiative. @b4nny @enigma @whoever is interested add me on steam and let's discuss funding and future plans

this is getting tiring why dont we look at the bigger picture and just come together as a collective and develop our own game. Like for real how much does it cost to run a video game design company? someone has to take the initiative. @b4nny @enigma @whoever is interested add me on steam and let's discuss funding and future plans
56
#56
24 Frags +

Anyone who is interested in developing a modern Team fortress 3 with HTML5 and Cascading STyle sheets add me. We will have to use servers and code for the backend.

Anyone who is interested in developing a modern Team fortress 3 with HTML5 and Cascading STyle sheets add me. We will have to use servers and code for the backend.
57
#57
13 Frags +

i'll make the spire in matlab and openfoam

i'll make the spire in matlab and openfoam
58
#58
3 Frags +

tf2 pro mod when

tf2 pro mod when
59
#59
-24 Frags +

Not a bad take by him, let's remember that he is more than willing to risk the current, small competitive scene for the prospect of growth. Iseries represents the center of competitive TF2 and has been decreasing in viewership (and prize pool) since it's first iteration back in 2007, he wants an international LAN that supports a format that can lead to growth rather than stagnation, stagnation being the fact that the lan has happened dozens of times and lead to no growth worth nothing, an event with a more accesible or open format could showcase the diversity a competitive TF2 scene could promote, he's done supporting a format he doesn't believe in any longer, props to him.

Not a bad take by him, let's remember that he is more than willing to risk the current, small competitive scene for the prospect of growth. Iseries represents the center of competitive TF2 and has been decreasing in viewership (and prize pool) since it's first iteration back in 2007, he wants an international LAN that supports a format that can lead to growth rather than stagnation, stagnation being the fact that the lan has happened dozens of times and lead to no growth worth nothing, an event with a more accesible or open format could showcase the diversity a competitive TF2 scene could promote, he's done supporting a format he doesn't believe in any longer, props to him.
60
#60
23 Frags +
MisterDannyhe wants an international LAN that supports a format that can lead to growth rather than stagnation,

BTS will be standard rules/whitelist but he's still gonna show up.

MisterDannyhe's done supporting a format he doesn't believe in any longer, props to him.

He's playing traditional 6s in RGL.

B4nny's logic only applies if it's convenient for him

[quote=MisterDanny]he wants an international LAN that supports a format that can lead to growth rather than stagnation,[/quote]
BTS will be standard rules/whitelist but he's still gonna show up.

[quote=MisterDanny]he's done supporting a format he doesn't believe in any longer, props to him.[/quote]
He's playing traditional 6s in RGL.

B4nny's logic only applies if it's convenient for him
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