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6vs6 Meta in official matchmaking
1
#1
0 Frags +

Hi everyone, your boy Olgha for another theorycraft thread...

Recently Sigafoo has launched an incredible cave of datas, that is to say 6's no restriction. This league is really interesting : it's almolst as if a new game tf2 was born, and every one is trying to get which composition is the best. I'ven't played the early tf2 but this stage of the game must have been one of the most interesting, as people were trying to figure out strategies that involves 9 classes, which was really new at the time. From this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition
I personaly watched "cat noises" a lot, as it is, in my opinion, the most interesting team to watch, not only because they bet Froyotech on upward week 2, but also because they're really into trying new things, which lacks like a LOT, as i already mentionned in my other threads about pyro/heavy where people would not easily be likely to play against something unique. From what i've seen so far, here's my meta composition :

1- Medic "original style" : This medic fits in the traditional 6's medic, as he has to play safe, make sure everyone get buffs.. He'll run either medigun or quick fix as the positionning remain the same for these medigun.

2- Agressive Medic : (do not even imagine a medic running at people with the Übersaw) it is a medic that runs a very different style : Vaccinator, which implies the medic to be way more agro and going deep to find 2v1 situations, which results usually in a 100% sucess rate as the vaccinator can easily nullifies a character for the time of an Ubercharge.

3- Demoman : Not much to say, it is and remains the king of dpm, king of sentry destruction, king of zoning... he seems to be mendatory in every game as he's the destructive force in each single team fight.

Now we have to go a bit further in my analysis as it is not that simple for the rest of the composition, it heavily depends on two factors : The player's skill on the class, and the situation. as obviously someone who is dog shit as sniper will not go sniper even if the situation is better for sniper.

so
4- Combo Flex : This player has to deal with medigun ubers and protecting the medic, i've seen plenty of options for this one: Pyro, Heavy, soldier with banner, scout, even an another demo... it has to be player having a strong dm, and good capacities to lead the team/ubercharges

5- Objective flank player : This is kinda of the bad role, as it the player dealing with the objectives, taking engineer if needed, pushing cart, dealing with flank and player behind, this player has to be really aware and have a reallly good knowledge of the game overall.

6- Pick entry player : for all of you spy and sniper mains, you have your place in this meta, and especially sniper as any open space of a map can be used well for a competent sniper, he's the threat in long distance, and keep the other team outside of sight lines. i don't have a map in mind where sniper is useless, especially with jarate, but if it were, he could go spy, or any other class he feels confident on to make an entry for his team.

I'm truly excited to see your replies on this, and also give your own composition, what it could be...

Hi everyone, your boy Olgha for another theorycraft thread...

Recently Sigafoo has launched an incredible cave of datas, that is to say 6's no restriction. This league is really interesting : it's almolst as if a new game tf2 was born, and every one is trying to get which composition is the best. I'ven't played the early tf2 but this stage of the game must have been one of the most interesting, as people were trying to figure out strategies that involves 9 classes, which was really new at the time. From this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
[b]It is not the best composition[/b]
I personaly watched "cat noises" a lot, as it is, in my opinion, the most interesting team to watch, not only because they bet Froyotech on upward week 2, but also because they're really into trying new things, which lacks like a [b]LOT[/b], as i already mentionned in my other threads about pyro/heavy where people would not easily be likely to play against something unique. From what i've seen so far, here's my meta composition :

1- Medic "original style" : This medic fits in the traditional 6's medic, as he has to play safe, make sure everyone get buffs.. He'll run either medigun or quick fix as the positionning remain the same for these medigun.

2- Agressive Medic : (do not even imagine a medic running at people with the Übersaw) it is a medic that runs a very different style : Vaccinator, which implies the medic to be way more agro and going deep to find 2v1 situations, which results usually in a 100% sucess rate as the vaccinator can easily nullifies a character for the time of an Ubercharge.

3- Demoman : Not much to say, it is and remains the king of dpm, king of sentry destruction, king of zoning... he seems to be mendatory in every game as he's the destructive force in each single team fight.

Now we have to go a bit further in my analysis as it is not that simple for the rest of the composition, it heavily depends on two factors : The player's skill on the class, and the situation. as obviously someone who is dog shit as sniper will not go sniper even if the situation is better for sniper.

so
4- Combo Flex : This player has to deal with medigun ubers and protecting the medic, i've seen plenty of options for this one: Pyro, Heavy, soldier with banner, scout, even an another demo... it has to be player having a strong dm, and good capacities to lead the team/ubercharges

5- Objective flank player : This is kinda of the bad role, as it the player dealing with the objectives, taking engineer if needed, pushing cart, dealing with flank and player behind, this player has to be really aware and have a reallly good knowledge of the game overall.

6- Pick entry player : for all of you spy and sniper mains, you have your place in this meta, and especially sniper as any open space of a map can be used well for a competent sniper, he's the threat in long distance, and keep the other team outside of sight lines. i don't have a map in mind where sniper is useless, especially with jarate, but if it were, he could go spy, or any other class he feels confident on to make an entry for his team.

I'm truly excited to see your replies on this, and also give your own composition, what it could be...
2
#2
42 Frags +

https://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/223612/4

OlghaFrom this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition

Nobody important has ever claimed that cookie cutter was the most efficient.
6s is shaped the way it is because 10 years of gameplay allowed the players express which parts of the game were interesting and fun and which weren't.

[img]https://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/223612/4[/img]

[quote=Olgha]From this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition[/quote]

Nobody important has ever claimed that cookie cutter was the most efficient.
6s is shaped the way it is because 10 years of gameplay allowed the players express which parts of the game were interesting and fun and which weren't.
3
#3
-9 Frags +
twiikuuhttps://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/223612/4
OlghaFrom this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition

Nobody important has ever claimed that cookie cutter was the most efficient.
6s is shaped the way it is because 10 years of gameplay allowed the players express which parts of the game were interesting and fun and which weren't.

oh you don't believe how much players i encountered telling me it IS the most efficient composition

[quote=twiikuu][img]https://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/223612/4[/img]

[quote=Olgha]From this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition[/quote]

Nobody important has ever claimed that cookie cutter was the most efficient.
6s is shaped the way it is because 10 years of gameplay allowed the players express which parts of the game were interesting and fun and which weren't.[/quote]

oh you don't believe how much players i encountered telling me it IS the most efficient composition
4
#4
0 Frags +

--

--
5
#5
46 Frags +
OlghaI'ven't
[quote=Olgha]I'ven't[/quote]
6
#6
64 Frags +
VisOlghaI'ven't

a shortcut innovation

[quote=Vis][quote=Olgha]I'ven't[/quote][/quote]
a shortcut innovation
7
#7
4 Frags +

olgha singlehandedly saving esports

olgha singlehandedly saving esports
8
#8
-7 Frags +

U got my + frag

U got my + frag
9
#9
4 Frags +
OlghaI personaly watched "cat noises" a lot, as it is, in my opinion, the most interesting team to watch, not only because they bet Froyotech on upward week 2, but also because they're really into trying new things, which lacks like a LOT, as i already mentionned in my other threads about pyro/heavy where people would not easily be likely to play against something unique.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from trying to establish something unique in traditional 6s. The only problem is that there is a high chance that it won't be viable but still annoying to play against. Also, there is only so much shit you can make available before a match of 6s turns into an unorganized, convoluted shitfest. I don't think you'd consider Overwatch a good game to watch, but that is pretty much what TF2 would be with all that no restriction stuff and I don't think we can afford to make 6s even more complicated if spectators that do not play it can't wrap their head around the whole Ubercharge business. Apart from that I'm pretty sure even in Overwatch they form a composition that is just inherently superior to any other.

[quote=Olgha]
I personaly watched "cat noises" a lot, as it is, in my opinion, the most interesting team to watch, not only because they bet Froyotech on upward week 2, but also because they're really into trying new things, which lacks like a [b]LOT[/b], as i already mentionned in my other threads about pyro/heavy where people would not easily be likely to play against something unique. [/quote]

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from trying to establish something unique in traditional 6s. The only problem is that there is a high chance that it won't be viable but still annoying to play against. Also, there is only so much shit you can make available before a match of 6s turns into an unorganized, convoluted shitfest. I don't think you'd consider Overwatch a good game to watch, but that is pretty much what TF2 would be with all that no restriction stuff and I don't think we can afford to make 6s even more complicated if spectators that do not play it can't wrap their head around the whole Ubercharge business. Apart from that I'm pretty sure even in Overwatch they form a composition that is just inherently superior to any other.
10
#10
2 Frags +

anything other than 6 snipers is a disadvantage cause you can match up against 6 snipers

anything other than 6 snipers is a disadvantage cause you can match up against 6 snipers
11
#11
Essentials.tf
11 Frags +

I can't speak for anyone else and this is entirely my own opinion, but, the Meta that has been formed has never aimed to be the best composition. If we aimed for what the competitive community deemed 'best' then that could be similar to what Cat Noises has run. The meta has evolved to demonstrate and reward the highest tier of play possible, allowing classes that reward individuals mechanics and deathmatching in tandem with efficient team play in a state where both individual and team play are balanced to be 'fun' to play and spectate. Whilst NR6s does allow more dynamic off-classing and weapon usage, the main thing to take away is whether or not the gameplay becomes unbalanced in one way or another.

It would not be a 'fun' way to play competitive 6s if:

  • One player can carry the entire match through the mechanical ability
  • Individual's plays are negated or not important
  • Team dynamics are irrelevant

Current 6s has achieved this balance by careful and gradual changes of rulesets to find a method of play that rewards individuals and teamwork equally (or in a balanced way). The community isn't especially resistant to new playstyles or tactics, it's just that those tactics do not compliment the method of play that we have decided to play. Whether or not that is the right method of play, remains to be debated.

I can't speak for anyone else and this is entirely my own opinion, but, the Meta that has been formed has never aimed to be the best composition. If we aimed for what the competitive community deemed 'best' then that could be similar to what Cat Noises has run. The meta has evolved to demonstrate and reward the highest tier of play possible, allowing classes that reward individuals mechanics and deathmatching in tandem with efficient team play in a state where both individual and team play are balanced to be 'fun' to play and spectate. Whilst NR6s does allow more dynamic off-classing and weapon usage, the main thing to take away is whether or not the gameplay becomes unbalanced in one way or another.

It would not be a 'fun' way to play competitive 6s if:
[list]
[*] One player can carry the entire match through the mechanical ability
[*] Individual's plays are negated or not important
[*] Team dynamics are irrelevant
[/list]

Current 6s has achieved this balance by careful and gradual changes of rulesets to find a method of play that rewards individuals and teamwork equally (or in a balanced way). The community isn't especially resistant to new playstyles or tactics, it's just that those tactics do not compliment the method of play that we have decided to play. Whether or not that is the right method of play, remains to be debated.
12
#12
10 Frags +
twiikuuhttps://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/223612/4
OlghaFrom this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition

Nobody important has ever claimed that cookie cutter was the most efficient.
6s is shaped the way it is because 10 years of gameplay allowed the players express which parts of the game were interesting and fun and which weren't.

This is just absolutely false lol

How do you think white lists started? How do you think the ruleset became what it is today? When I started playing comp tf2 11 years ago we played 8v8 with no limits, the current ruleset didn’t just appear or of thin air and has been played for all of time.

The current ruleset was created and molded by 6v6 players to present and play the most “competitive” format by their standards. Leagues have never been the ones to outright say hey this is the ruleset or new ruleset and this is what you’re playing. The rules of the fight have always been defined by the upper echelon players and continues to be to this day, there isn’t an argument that supports the latter. There isn’t a league out here right now that could completely change their ruleset and the players be okay with it, that has how TF2 has always been and probably always will be. I have no doubt in my mind that esea or etf2l would run something even marginally close to a no restrict ruleset unless RGL somehow starts stealing their player base.

[quote=twiikuu][img]https://cdn.frankerfacez.com/emoticon/223612/4[/img]

[quote=Olgha]From this period, we've built a meta composition supposingly better than the others, nowadays, what we can get from this league is :
It is not the best composition[/quote]

Nobody important has ever claimed that cookie cutter was the most efficient.
6s is shaped the way it is because 10 years of gameplay allowed the players express which parts of the game were interesting and fun and which weren't.[/quote]

This is just absolutely false lol

How do you think white lists started? How do you think the ruleset became what it is today? When I started playing comp tf2 11 years ago we played 8v8 with no limits, the current ruleset didn’t just appear or of thin air and has been played for all of time.

The current ruleset was created and molded by 6v6 [b]players[/b] to present and play the most “competitive” format by their standards. Leagues have never been the ones to outright say hey this is the ruleset or new ruleset and this is what you’re playing. The rules of the fight have always been defined by the upper echelon players and continues to be to this day, there isn’t an argument that supports the latter. There isn’t a league out here right now that could completely change their ruleset and the players be okay with it, that has how TF2 has always been and probably always will be. I have no doubt in my mind that esea or etf2l would run something even marginally close to a no restrict ruleset unless RGL somehow starts stealing their player base.
13
#13
7 Frags +
lucrativeThis is just absolutely false lol

How do you think white lists started? How do you think the ruleset became what it is today? When I started playing comp tf2 11 years ago we played 8v8 with no limits, the current ruleset didn’t just appear or of thin air and has been played for all of time.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood your point or if you've misread mine. I never implied rules came out of thin air..?
From my understanding, the general process was along the lines of:
- Players play for a while
- Players find something they don't like
- League admins consider solutions for said thing
- League admins apply solutions
- Repeat
I haven't been verbose about it because I thought it was implied and obvious.
Feel free to let me know what I got wrong

[quote=lucrative]This is just absolutely false lol

How do you think white lists started? How do you think the ruleset became what it is today? When I started playing comp tf2 11 years ago we played 8v8 with no limits, the current ruleset didn’t just appear or of thin air and has been played for all of time.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I misunderstood your point or if you've misread mine. I never implied rules came out of thin air..?
From my understanding, the general process was along the lines of:
- Players play for a while
- Players find something they don't like
- League admins consider solutions for said thing
- League admins apply solutions
- Repeat
I haven't been verbose about it because I thought it was implied and obvious.
Feel free to let me know what I got wrong
14
#14
21 Frags +

holy shit medic now makes up 1/3 of all teams

in other news, it looks like there are a grand total of 5 teams now

holy shit medic now makes up 1/3 of all teams

in other news, it looks like there are a grand total of 5 teams now
15
#15
19 Frags +

does anyone actually think pyro heavy or engineer are fun to play against

does anyone actually think pyro heavy or engineer are fun to play against
16
#16
6 Frags +
twiikuuI haven't been verbose about it because I thought it was implied and obvious.
Feel free to let me know what I got wrong

I actually quite like the way you described it - over time, the players and community were able to sculpt game rules and conditions around what made the game as fun as possible to play, and to watch, with minimal shitty parts.

[quote=twiikuu]
I haven't been verbose about it because I thought it was implied and obvious.
Feel free to let me know what I got wrong[/quote]

I actually quite like the way you described it - over time, the players and community were able to sculpt game rules and conditions around what made the game as fun as possible to play, and to watch, with minimal shitty parts.
17
#17
26 Frags +

imgaine trying to run pugs and needing to cuck 4 people onto med

imgaine trying to run pugs and needing to cuck 4 people onto med
18
#18
-5 Frags +

no one is talking about the core of the article :'(

no one is talking about the core of the article :'(
19
#19
23 Frags +
I personaly watched "cat noises" a lot, as it is, in my opinion, the most interesting team to watch

I know what you mean, after buying the adult only 18+ dlc for Nekopara I literally can't stop masturbating. I'm beginning to develop an addiction to catgirl hentai and now that I am unemployed (again) I have been spending hours masturbating to degenerate anime porn. Apparently "sex addiction" is a real thing and you CAN get help for it Olgha.

Remember you are not alone

[quote]I personaly watched "cat noises" a lot, as it is, in my opinion, the most interesting team to watch[/quote]

I know what you mean, after buying the adult only 18+ dlc for Nekopara I literally can't stop masturbating. I'm beginning to develop an addiction to catgirl hentai and now that I am unemployed (again) I have been spending hours masturbating to degenerate anime porn. Apparently "sex addiction" is a real thing and you CAN get help for it Olgha.

Remember you are not alone
20
#20
20 Frags +

I'm pretty sure this is a shitpost but I'll take the bait and post anyways-

If you remove restrictions from the competitive ruleset the game stops looking anything like traditional competitive formats. Double medic in a game of 6v6 decreases your damage output by 20% in return for double heals, more ubers, and the ability to have 225 HP medics with scout speed. It boggles my mind that froyo didn't look at double med and instantly want to use it, but whatever. Its great, you just have to change some fundemental assumptions about the game. Everyone's life instantly becomes much more important and it turns the game into a numbers game instead of ubers game. Losing one combat class can put your team into a 3v5 in terms of damage potential if the other team isnt mirroring your composition, which can be further exacerbated if you have a class poorly suited to fighting as well (spy, sniper, baby enginner if his buildings die). Ubers stop mattering as much because tracking gets more complicated for a variety of reasons, and you can kinda outheal the damage while kiting if you do it right. Feeding on a combat class generally starts mattering a lot more, and 2019 style soldiers die for their scouts to win tf2 doesn't work (as well, at the very least). Deathball is meta.

On the topic of medics, I also wanna say that the vaccinator is a broken weapon when you have multiple medics. It's not gamebreaking in community competitive formats with just a single medic and is only really useful holding last in that context, but increase the medic count and it snowballs extremely fast into aids territory because it's so easy to always have like 10-20 seconds of 75% damage resistance between your medics to apply however they want in a team fight. People might not realize it rn, but that weapon is potentially the single most broken item in this game if used well.

For the most part the specifics of what you want to run on your team vary based on the map and gametype. A demo is always gonna be a thing, and you want medics as well. Snipers on stopwatch (and maybe koth) are a requirement, but in 5cp you really want scouts for point capping. A second demo is really good in something like gully bc there are only two doors between mid and 2nd. Engineers can abuse the wrangler really well on stopwatch defense. Soldier banners charge at full rate against vaccinator bubbles so it's really easy to farm their charges to combo with ubers (conch + quick fix is devastating bc of the speed boost coupled with knockback negation). Pyros gain an actual niche as a combat class by adding a third damage type against the vaccinator, spy is good for killing snipers because running the razorback in this gamemode is pretty stupid if you can sit with a Darwin's and bullet resist bubbles and be invincible. Double crossbow tanking heavies is a joke and that's actually how my team pushed a couple points on upward scrimming kings crew, we just never did it in our match.

If you actually want my estimation on what a 'best' meta is for this gamemode it's probably something like this-

2 meds (stock + vacc, 2 vacc, 2 quick fix, depending on map)
1 demo
1 sniper (who should switch on scout in 5cp instead)
2 flex

Where the flex players should be primarily focusing on scout, soldier, and demo based on map. Engineer and Heavy become staples in stopwatch defense rounds or last holds. Pyro becomes much more useful and really abuseable if your players are smart (You can capture points under vaccinator bubbles. A pyro with a bullet bubble clears your sticks with scorch shot and walks on cap reflecting projectiles, wdyd? Also, upward cliff)

The most aids strategy to come out of playing this format has easily been playing upward, putting a vaccinator med on our sniper, with a stock medic playing normally. The sniper and vacc med literally just stand wherever the fuck they want, kill everything and lower the total amount of fun for the enemy team to 0. Fallen Lord is a sniper main who has never played a single season of esea 6v6 in his life and rolled froyotech + a YouTuber doing this. It is really easy to see that TF2 (outside of the bubble that is esea 6s) has a huge balancing issue in regards to sniper. Take from that what you will.

List of measurably dumb things in this game:
Wrangler shield
Short circuit
Vaccinators
Sniper
Airblast
Sticky det bug
Ubers building in pauses
The flamethrower has a negative aim requirement making it stupid with actual damage potential (think jungle inferno pyro)
Engineer is a glorified attachment to his sentry gun

Thanks for listening to my Ted talk

This gamemode is very stupid but it's a nice change of pace and I'm having fun with it.

I'm pretty sure this is a shitpost but I'll take the bait and post anyways-

If you remove restrictions from the competitive ruleset the game stops looking anything like traditional competitive formats. Double medic in a game of 6v6 decreases your damage output by 20% in return for double heals, more ubers, and the ability to have 225 HP medics with scout speed. It boggles my mind that froyo didn't look at double med and instantly want to use it, but whatever. Its great, you just have to change some fundemental assumptions about the game. Everyone's life instantly becomes much more important and it turns the game into a numbers game instead of ubers game. Losing one combat class can put your team into a 3v5 in terms of damage potential if the other team isnt mirroring your composition, which can be further exacerbated if you have a class poorly suited to fighting as well (spy, sniper, baby enginner if his buildings die). Ubers stop mattering as much because tracking gets more complicated for a variety of reasons, and you can kinda outheal the damage while kiting if you do it right. Feeding on a combat class generally starts mattering a lot more, and 2019 style soldiers die for their scouts to win tf2 doesn't work (as well, at the very least). Deathball is meta.

On the topic of medics, I also wanna say that the vaccinator is a broken weapon when you have multiple medics. It's not gamebreaking in community competitive formats with just a single medic and is only really useful holding last in that context, but increase the medic count and it snowballs extremely fast into aids territory because it's so easy to always have like 10-20 seconds of 75% damage resistance between your medics to apply however they want in a team fight. People might not realize it rn, but that weapon is potentially the single most broken item in this game if used well.

For the most part the specifics of what you want to run on your team vary based on the map and gametype. A demo is always gonna be a thing, and you want medics as well. Snipers on stopwatch (and maybe koth) are a requirement, but in 5cp you really want scouts for point capping. A second demo is really good in something like gully bc there are only two doors between mid and 2nd. Engineers can abuse the wrangler really well on stopwatch defense. Soldier banners charge at full rate against vaccinator bubbles so it's really easy to farm their charges to combo with ubers (conch + quick fix is devastating bc of the speed boost coupled with knockback negation). Pyros gain an actual niche as a combat class by adding a third damage type against the vaccinator, spy is good for killing snipers because running the razorback in this gamemode is pretty stupid if you can sit with a Darwin's and bullet resist bubbles and be invincible. Double crossbow tanking heavies is a joke and that's actually how my team pushed a couple points on upward scrimming kings crew, we just never did it in our match.

If you actually want my estimation on what a 'best' meta is for this gamemode it's probably something like this-

2 meds (stock + vacc, 2 vacc, 2 quick fix, depending on map)
1 demo
1 sniper (who should switch on scout in 5cp instead)
2 flex

Where the flex players should be primarily focusing on scout, soldier, and demo based on map. Engineer and Heavy become staples in stopwatch defense rounds or last holds. Pyro becomes much more useful and really abuseable if your players are smart (You can capture points under vaccinator bubbles. A pyro with a bullet bubble clears your sticks with scorch shot and walks on cap reflecting projectiles, wdyd? Also, upward cliff)

The most aids strategy to come out of playing this format has easily been playing upward, putting a vaccinator med on our sniper, with a stock medic playing normally. The sniper and vacc med literally just stand wherever the fuck they want, kill everything and lower the total amount of fun for the enemy team to 0. Fallen Lord is a sniper main who has never played a single season of esea 6v6 in his life and rolled froyotech + a YouTuber doing this. It is really easy to see that TF2 (outside of the bubble that is esea 6s) has a huge balancing issue in regards to sniper. Take from that what you will.


List of measurably dumb things in this game:
Wrangler shield
Short circuit
Vaccinators
Sniper
Airblast
Sticky det bug
Ubers building in pauses
The flamethrower has a negative aim requirement making it stupid with actual damage potential (think jungle inferno pyro)
Engineer is a glorified attachment to his sentry gun

Thanks for listening to my Ted talk

This gamemode is very stupid but it's a nice change of pace and I'm having fun with it.
21
#21
-7 Frags +
GetawhaletwiikuuI haven't been verbose about it because I thought it was implied and obvious.
Feel free to let me know what I got wrong

I actually quite like the way you described it - over time, the players and community were able to sculpt game rules and conditions around what made the game as fun as possible to play, and to watch, with minimal shitty parts.

I'd love to get some history behind this, as I've learned a bit about competitive in NA.

To my understanding, sixes was not sculpted over time, but was created almost in full about 9-10 years ago and then was slowly detailed as the years went on.

For instance, back in Season 13 of ozfortress, they had almost every single weapon banned. Which is only 4 years ago.

Or ESEA, in season 14, had about 50% of weapons banned.

More importantly, the class limits and map types were set a long time ago. Looking back at the start of ESEA, in the first season, it was almost exclusively 5cp maps. And clicking through several seasons, it's basically the same. One koth map gets added in. Didn't see any payload being played.

In class limits, it was CL2, except for medic in 2008 in EU and already by later in the year in fall in 2008 demo was restricted to 1. Effectively given us our current class limits.

The only "sculpting" I can tell that happened is:

- The number of weapon bans has been reduced, though it doesn't matter much. As the handful of weapons that could help make flex classes more impactful are not allowed.

- Class restrictions became more restrictive, despite the class meta being fairly static over time

- Maps types being played, stuck with 5cp from the start and is almost exclusively the only map type being played now.

Two of the major things that make up the format, is the class limits, weapons and maps (as these can shape the meta.) And from what I can tell, basically from the start, nothing really changed. No real sculpting has been done. Basically what the last 10 years as done is just polished the already complete work of art that is restrictive sixes.

Which is fine, this isn't a knock at sixes over other formats. Highlander is basically in the same boat. The inner meta of the format has changed. The whitelist continues to be very open, as it always was and the class diversity is the same as it always was... existing. But no one would say highlander has been "sculpted" over the last 10 years, because like sixes, it's essentially the same game it was at the start. With only minor changes to the maps and weapons banned.

Maybe I'm missing something, and feel free to illuminate where sixes has drastically changed in terms of format (outside of the first year or two of existence.) Because from what I can tell, it's basically the same as it ever was. Very strict class meta 2-2-1-1, and 5cp maps. And anytime a meta was shaping that wasn't 2-2-1-1, either weapons were banned or restrictions were taken down to CL1, to keep the meta to continue as 2-2-1-1.

[quote=Getawhale][quote=twiikuu]
I haven't been verbose about it because I thought it was implied and obvious.
Feel free to let me know what I got wrong[/quote]

I actually quite like the way you described it - over time, the players and community were able to sculpt game rules and conditions around what made the game as fun as possible to play, and to watch, with minimal shitty parts.[/quote]

I'd love to get some history behind this, as I've learned a bit about competitive in NA.

To my understanding, sixes was not sculpted over time, but was created almost in full about 9-10 years ago and then was slowly detailed as the years went on.

For instance, back in [url=https://whitelist.tf/ozfortress_6v6_s13]Season 13 of ozfortress[/url], they had almost every single weapon banned. Which is only [url=https://liquipedia.net/teamfortress/Ozfortress/Season_13/Premier]4 years ago[/url].

Or ESEA, in [url=https://whitelist.tf/esea_6v6_s14]season 14[/url], had about 50% of weapons banned.

More importantly, the class limits and map types were set a long time ago. Looking back at the start of ESEA, in the [url=http://tinyurl.com/y4muebez]first season[/url], it was almost exclusively 5cp maps. And clicking through several seasons, it's basically the same. One koth map gets added in. Didn't see any payload being played.

In class limits, it was [url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080227104951/http://etf2l.org/about/rules/]CL2, except for medic in 2008 in EU[/url] and already by [url=https://web.archive.org/web/20080913050124/http://etf2l.org/about/rules/]later in the year in fall in 2008[/url] demo was restricted to 1. Effectively given us our current class limits.


The only "sculpting" I can tell that happened is:

- The number of weapon bans has been reduced, though it doesn't matter much. As the handful of weapons that could help make flex classes more impactful are not allowed.

- Class restrictions became more restrictive, despite the class meta being fairly static over time

- Maps types being played, stuck with 5cp from the start and is almost exclusively the only map type being played now.


Two of the major things that make up the format, is the class limits, weapons and maps (as these can shape the meta.) And from what I can tell, basically from the start, nothing really changed. No real sculpting has been done. Basically what the last 10 years as done is just polished the already complete work of art that is restrictive sixes.

Which is fine, this isn't a knock at sixes over other formats. Highlander is basically in the same boat. The inner meta of the format has changed. The whitelist continues to be very open, as it always was and the class diversity is the same as it always was... existing. But no one would say highlander has been "sculpted" over the last 10 years, because like sixes, it's essentially the same game it was at the start. With only minor changes to the maps and weapons banned.

Maybe I'm missing something, and feel free to illuminate where sixes has drastically changed in terms of format (outside of the first year or two of existence.) Because from what I can tell, it's basically the same as it ever was. Very strict class meta 2-2-1-1, and 5cp maps. And anytime a meta was shaping that wasn't 2-2-1-1, either weapons were banned or restrictions were taken down to CL1, to keep the meta to continue as 2-2-1-1.
22
#22
-1 Frags +

why would you think i'm the kind of person who shitpost ?

why would you think i'm the kind of person who shitpost ?
23
#23
8 Frags +

sigafoo you're so passive aggressive omg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLRhmad9Jq4

sigafoo you're so passive aggressive omg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLRhmad9Jq4
24
#24
-4 Frags +
Rebitesigafoo you're so passive aggressive omg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLRhmad9Jq4

So from this, it sounds like, many things were tried back in 2007 and by 2008/2009 the base idea is pretty well established.

Which is my point, the base format essentially started at 2-2-1-1, on 5cp maps with heavy weapon restrictions.

It's correct to say that the inner-meta of sixes has evolved, clearly it has. Just as it has in any format over the course of 10 years. It's confusing to me to say something was "sculpted" over 10 years, when really it was decided 10 years ago and this past 10 years has been mostly just trying to keep the format as it always has been, 2-2-1-1, basically 5cp only, with a decent amount of weapons banned.

Again not bad or good. If something is good, why change it.

[quote=Rebite]sigafoo you're so passive aggressive omg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLRhmad9Jq4[/quote]

So from this, it sounds like, many things were tried back in 2007 and by 2008/2009 the base idea is pretty well established.

Which is my point, the base format essentially started at 2-2-1-1, on 5cp maps with heavy weapon restrictions.

It's correct to say that the inner-meta of sixes has evolved, clearly it has. Just as it has in any format over the course of 10 years. It's confusing to me to say something was "sculpted" over 10 years, when really it was decided 10 years ago and this past 10 years has been mostly just trying to keep the format as it always has been, 2-2-1-1, basically 5cp only, with a decent amount of weapons banned.

Again not bad or good. If something is good, why change it.
25
#25
9 Frags +

i think we should just go to sigafoos house and beat him up and take his computer

i think we should just go to sigafoos house and beat him up and take his computer
26
#26
Essentials.tf
4 Frags +
sigafooIt's confusing to me to say something was "sculpted" over 10 years, when really it was decided 10 years ago and this past 10 years has been mostly just trying to keep the format as it always has been, 2-2-1-1, basically 5cp only, with a decent amount of weapons banned.

Perhaps "sculpted" may have been a poor choice of words, but there has historically been a notable shift in behavior and mentality to the way we have approached the 6s format. Whilst I will agree that the class lineup has remained generally the same (which I believe is more a consequence of the way the classes have been designed), the maps and especially the mentality when approaching the Whitelist has very much changed over time. Notably, ETF2L Season 9 to like 17-18 is a great example of a gradual flip in approaching weapon bans.

[quote=sigafoo]It's confusing to me to say something was "sculpted" over 10 years, when really it was decided 10 years ago and this past 10 years has been mostly just trying to keep the format as it always has been, 2-2-1-1, basically 5cp only, with a decent amount of weapons banned.[/quote]

Perhaps "sculpted" may have been a poor choice of words, but there has historically been a notable shift in behavior and mentality to the way we have approached the 6s format. Whilst I will agree that the class lineup has remained generally the same (which I believe is more a consequence of the way the classes have been designed), the maps and especially the mentality when approaching the Whitelist has very much changed over time. Notably, ETF2L Season 9 to like 17-18 is a great example of a gradual flip in approaching weapon bans.
27
#27
-10 Frags +
DrHappinesssigafooIt's confusing to me to say something was "sculpted" over 10 years, when really it was decided 10 years ago and this past 10 years has been mostly just trying to keep the format as it always has been, 2-2-1-1, basically 5cp only, with a decent amount of weapons banned.
Perhaps "sculpted" may have been a poor choice of words, but there has historically been a notable shift in behavior and mentality to the way we have approached the 6s format. Whilst I will agree that the class lineup has remained generally the same (which I believe is more a consequence of the way the classes have been designed), the maps and especially the mentality when approaching the Whitelist has very much changed over time. Notably, ETF2L Season 9 to like 17-18 is a great example of a gradual flip in approaching weapon bans.

I wholeheartedly agree that there have been shifts in roles of the classes, the inner-meta of the sixes game. The strategy of the game is very different than it was 10 years ago, even if the actual format is very almost identical with very little changes to it.

[quote=DrHappiness][quote=sigafoo]It's confusing to me to say something was "sculpted" over 10 years, when really it was decided 10 years ago and this past 10 years has been mostly just trying to keep the format as it always has been, 2-2-1-1, basically 5cp only, with a decent amount of weapons banned.[/quote]

Perhaps "sculpted" may have been a poor choice of words, but there has historically been a notable shift in behavior and mentality to the way we have approached the 6s format. Whilst I will agree that the class lineup has remained generally the same (which I believe is more a consequence of the way the classes have been designed), the maps and especially the mentality when approaching the Whitelist has very much changed over time. Notably, ETF2L Season 9 to like 17-18 is a great example of a gradual flip in approaching weapon bans.[/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree that there have been shifts in roles of the classes, the inner-meta of the sixes game. The strategy of the game is very different than it was 10 years ago, even if the actual format is very almost identical with very little changes to it.
28
#28
16 Frags +

Not sure how you watched a hour and 20 min long video in 10 min, but ok.

Also you need to define "sculpted" because the game is drastically different than it was 10 years ago, hell its drastically different than it was like 2 years ago. Sure the map pool and the classes might not have changed but the meta and the way the game is played has changed a lot over time.

Not sure how you watched a hour and 20 min long video in 10 min, but ok.

Also you need to define "sculpted" because the game is drastically different than it was 10 years ago, hell its drastically different than it was like 2 years ago. Sure the map pool and the classes might not have changed but the meta and the way the game is played has changed a lot over time.
29
#29
-11 Frags +
Tino_Not sure how you watched a hour and 20 min long video in 10 min, but ok.

Also you need to define "sculpted" because the game is drastically different than it was 10 years ago, hell its drastically different than it was like 2 years ago. Sure the map pool and the classes might not have changed but the meta and the way the game is played has changed a lot over time.

Because I didn't, I listen to a bit of the start. And skimmed to see if there were any format changes in the slides. As I've been playing comp since 2011, so I was really just focusing on the years before me.

And again, the point I'm raising isn't a question of did the inner-meta of the format shift over time. As I acknowledge in basically every post above that it did. It'd be idiotic to try and claim that sixes meta now = sixes meta 10 years ago. Fortunately, that's not my question.

My question is, what about the format (Class restrictions, weapon bans, map types) has changed in the last ten years. And I list my findings above, which you're not really refuting you're just talking about something else entirely. And I'm not trying to say I know everything, I don't. So I'm wondering if I'm wrong on this and if so where. So I can be better informed.

[quote=Tino_]Not sure how you watched a hour and 20 min long video in 10 min, but ok.

Also you need to define "sculpted" because the game is drastically different than it was 10 years ago, hell its drastically different than it was like 2 years ago. Sure the map pool and the classes might not have changed but the meta and the way the game is played has changed a lot over time.[/quote]

Because I didn't, I listen to a bit of the start. And skimmed to see if there were any format changes in the slides. As I've been playing comp since 2011, so I was really just focusing on the years before me.

And again, the point I'm raising isn't a question of did the inner-meta of the format shift over time. As I acknowledge in basically every post above that it did. It'd be idiotic to try and claim that sixes meta now = sixes meta 10 years ago. Fortunately, that's not my question.

My question is, what about the [b]format (Class restrictions, weapon bans, map types)[/b] has changed in the last ten years. And I list my findings above, which you're not really refuting you're just talking about something else entirely. And I'm not trying to say I know everything, I don't. So I'm wondering if I'm wrong on this and if so where. So I can be better informed.
30
#30
31 Frags +

everytime sigfaoo posts i read it as a RGL announcement or advertisement because of the way he speaks

everytime sigfaoo posts i read it as a RGL announcement or advertisement because of the way he speaks
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