sigafoo
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Signed Up September 7, 2012
Last Posted February 15, 2019 at 4:37 PM
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#105 RGL 6s league in TF2 General Discussion

Howdy Everyone!

RGL is very excited to share that http://marketplace.tf is sponsoring our sixes league!

With that, RGL is announcing stretch goals for our Invite division to increase the prize pool. The current prize pool is $600.

Stretch Goal #1: If Invite has 6 ESEA-I/RGL-I caliber teams, the prize pool will double to $1,200.
Stretch Goal #2: If Invite has 8 ESEA-I/RGL-I caliber teams, the prize pool will expand to $1,500.

Read more about it in our latest article.

We've already had 37 48 teams sign-up in the first 7 days! Hope all of you can join us.

15 days left to register!

- Register @ http://MM.RGL.gg
- Original article with more details about the pilot league.

posted 1 day ago
#72 RGL 6s league in TF2 General Discussion
hamahamNursayevery comp player that has visited valve has always came back saying we need to run no class limits and no whitelist

do whatever u want with this information....
elaborate on what it'll do for us?
I personally can with confidence say I like the current 6s meta and the lobbies where our pocket manages to go demo (2 scouts, 1 solly, 2 demos, 1 med) have only been aids, will no rules give us support, a more fun comp game or a more aids inclusive (ironically people would be shit on more by demos and scouts making it more exclusive than anything) meta?
you've failed to elaborate on what the gain is before, both you and b4nny have evaded the question what you were promised in return for compromising our current 6s ruleset and meta

No one's evaded any question, the answer to this question has been given in the front page news article as well as in our reddit post and probably in this thread as well.

Again, I'll state this. This league is not to prove that MM is the greatest thing in the world and we've all been missing out. The goal isn't to prove that no class restrictions will help class diversity, I agree with you. I'm guessing it'll get worst.

The goal is very clearly stated directly in the article on the front page is to gain information from this league that we can give to Valve as well as the Comp Community and hopefully both can try to get closer to a unification point. As we'll have evidence from every level of comp tf2 skill sets to show why this format does or does not work. Or what aspect of it works or does not work.

Payload has been very effective in Prolander and seems to work well in MM. Can this tournament help show us if it works when you have two proper teams? Or most teams strongly dislike it?

Sixes still has a large whitelist compared to other leagues, can this league help show that at least /some/ of those weapons could be unbanned? Or will this clearly back the players who are holding the line in the global whitelist talks?

Does having no class restrictions allow class diversity to happen? Or does it make class diversity worst due to the balance of the classes?

etc...

Many people have theory crafted about these ideas, but we've never really truly investigated this. Sure there's been those half-hearted events where two teams play a couple maps with nothing on the line, but that never really seemed to prove much. Now with this cup, we will have multiple weeks of data, from every skill level and detailed survey feedback from all of these levels.

Valve has shown themselves to work with the comp community through adding a comp matchmaking into the game. Changing the system to have placement matches and most importantly balancing weapons seemingly with the focus of Comp in mind. They've made strides to help out the comp community, but we as a community haven't done anything but dismiss them.

Again, this isn't to say what they're doing is right, but regardless of whether or not this format is successful. We will come away from this situation with something positive.

posted 5 days ago
#16 RGL 6s league in TF2 General Discussion
catman1900I don't know why people are upset, either this will definitively prove that no whitelist/ no class limit tf2 isn't fun or it'll prove that it works fine.

Either way, free check

I think you summed it up perfectly.

GrapeJuiceIIIFuck it I’m willing to play just for the feedback. I think this league should fizzle out after a bit but it would be nice to play with these items with MONEY on the line so that they get tested in a serious environment.

I don't expect us to continue the league, unless the format is well liked. And if it is, then we might consider retiring Prolander in place of this. This pilot league/event, first and foremost is to promote experimentation with money on the line and get feedback for the community and Valve. If we actually learn the format is actually good, then that's a bonus and we might pursue it more, depending on what other leagues do.

posted 6 days ago
#9 RGL 6s league in TF2 General Discussion
Cyanici just cannot see any instance where this is actually fun to play seriously

Well the goal of this, is not to prove that this format is amazingly fun. The goal of this is to get as much real feedback as possible to give to Valve to help bring the comp community and Valve closer together.

Whether that's finding out, this is an amazing format or finding out it has issues that need to be resolved and here's the evidence to prove it.

I think all parties are going to be able to take away something positive from this event.

posted 6 days ago
#4 RGL 6s league in TF2 General Discussion

I'm ready for the 2 heavies, 2 engies, 2 medics final defense, only to lose to six invis spies decloaking on the final point.

posted 6 days ago
#5 Update Pause plugin from RGL.gg in TF2 General Discussion
twiikuuCould we get source code to go with it ? Thanks

Source code

posted 3 months ago
#1 Update Pause plugin from RGL.gg in TF2 General Discussion

Howdy!

Currently, in TF2 there is a bug that during pauses medics will still continue to build uber if they are healing a player. One of our staff members at RGL was able to slightly modify the existing pause plugin by F2 to fix this and prevent medics from building uber during pauses.

We installed this on our servers earlier this week and are ready to release it to the public.

Original pause plugin post

Download the new pause plugin (1.4) (source code)

You can go to the original plugin post for details on how to install it. This replaces the original pause plugin, not a new separate one.

Original/Base plugin author: F2
1.4 Version updated by: Aad

If you have any questions/issues, let us know!

posted 3 months ago
#214 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
Tino_sigafooIt wasn't a big deal,
The essay you just posted suggests otherwise.

The situation wasn't a big deal, just calling out someone who's trying to twist the facts to attack me. Explaining why someone is lying often takes longer to explain than the lie itself.

crabfwhats even happening in this thread anymore

Good question.

posted 4 months ago
#211 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
TurySpeaking about sigafoo not liking stacked teams, he one time tried to get me and some other people banned from TF2center because of a stacked HL lobby.

https://forums.tf2center.com/topic/4282-honesty-steam-0152914633/#entry17742

I think the mod's response to his post sums up this whole thing pretty well
"you cant ban people for wanting to play with friends."

If you're going to attack me over something so inane, at least have your facts right. This was clearly not me reporting you for stacking, that happens. Whether you do it purposefully or not, rolls are going to happen. Dragging out a lobby that should have been done in under 10 minutes to take over 23 minutes. That's lame.

But let's just quote from the report, because it's pretty straightforward about what I was talking about.

"One of the problems that can happen with lobbies is stacking. Sometimes it's malicious, other times it's accidental. When it's malicious it's only truly bad when you purposely draw out the game and it creates an unfun environment.

Purposefully drawing out a game which is clearly one sided for your own benefit is rude and exploiting what the purpose of lobby is. [...]

Just looking at the logs from the game: http://logs.tf/724124

They out damaged us by over 50,000. They have over 200 kills more than us. Every person on our team has a negative K/D. Yet some how we were able to cap all four points? Just looking at the stats, that doesn't make any sense.
[...]
Also to really just show how much they went out of their way to prolong the game on purpose.

The cart is so far back on the third point that they let overtime go on for 45 seconds. None of the 9 players on the defensive side even attempts to contest the cart. And if wasn't clear enough that they did nothing on purpose (to let us cap). As soon as the third point is capture (@ 1:48) the whole defense combo attacks the cart... "

gemmin eu when a hl lobby rolls most people let them cap so everyone gets more of a game and most people on the losing team are fine with that. it's not trying to roll people it's just trying to play more than 5 mins for a game that takes 30 to start

I agree that extending the game is not wrong if the game is even remotely close. Who doesn't want to play a good game? When they purposefully drag it out like this, it's more akin to a team who doesn't capture the point on koth and opts just to forward camp you to drag out the game for their fun. This wasn't just a little roll, the final score was 271 frags to 81. We didn't even break 100 kills after 24 minutes, whereas they almost broke 300.

I'd rather end the game, and move on to the next one than have to stay and play out such a terrible match.

---

But either way, this thing is what? Over three years old. It wasn't a big deal, I brought up something I thought was not healthy for the lobby site. They said they're fine with this behavior on their site and the world moved on.

posted 4 months ago
#4 game randomly alt-tabs in Q/A Help

Is it just tf2 in steam or is it all games?

I had an issue with the new steam interface, where the friends list would take focus and "alt tab" from what game I was playing.

I resolved the issue by launching steam with the old interface. I created a shortcut with the target as:

"C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\Steam.exe" -nofriendsui

Haven't had any issues since then.

posted 4 months ago
#189 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
DrHappinessIf RGL wants productive feedback, then perhaps individuals shouldn't isolate the exact audience that RGL needs to cater towards.

Again if we did this, Proland wouldn't exist. RGL wouldn't exist. Listening to others opinions outside of your own circle is important, but when those voices are very skewed, and you know that. You take it with a grain of salt. There are a few voices that stand out on the forums who are actually well reasoned and we listen to those moreso.

DrHappiness The decision to separate players from playing in one team because they are dominant in recent history is the antithesis of what a competitive league should stand for. One thing I should point out is that RGL is completely within their right to do this as it is their league, but that does not mean we just have to accept it and go along with the decision. Earlier in the thread, Sigafoo debunked dominant teams not separating players in professional sports, pointing out the fact that they were under the effect of a Salary Cap.

What they have apparently failed to realize in avoiding to enforce an actual Salary Cap is the actual intention of what a salary cap is supposed to do. In the current method of roster changes and a player worth in the TF2 scene, no player has an attached value and players are free to transfer between teams in regards of their localized league's rules to prevent hijacking. Because players do not have a monetary value attached to them, the idea of a salary cap does not work with the rule that RGL have put forward. The rule's goal is similar to a salary cap, which is the prevention of a dominant team to encourage more competition but fails to realize that the method put forward prevents any team from establishing themselves.

Fair.

DrHappinessI understand that froyotech is a unique case because of their strength and dominance over the past 3 or so years if not more, with Se7en being the only team that can really challenge them. But I don't see that as an issue that requires breaking apart an established team because of that. RGL have shot themselves in the foot and have created a problem that, if they are not careful, will cause them more harm then good in the future. There are so many clauses and loopholes that would have to be addressed without the rule being seen as nothing more than an artificial handicap towards the other teams in the League.

Having hard rules is how you create loop holes. Having guidelines that you judge by allows context to weigh into decisions.

DrHappiness What defines someone as the best player in their respective class? Who determines that?

I don't think you could define that and have it always apply 100% of the time.

DrHappiness What about roster changes mid-season? What would happen if you don't have enough teams without more than one froyo member on each team?

Roster changes would have to abide by our rules and a majority of teams won't have froyotech players this season.

DrHappinessWhat would label a team in RGL only as a Super Team? Is this rule only for froyotech or is it for any team that establishes themselves as dominant? If Cat Noises win the next few seasons, would they be broken up as well?

Again, it's about context, not just winning. Winning != super team, it's about how much, how to dominate and what are they doing in the market. Are they poaching the best players or are they building off of their own. How is good is the next teams to them, etc... As I've stated before, having a rule that just states "winning 3 times in a row causes a breakup" would not be a good rule.

DrHappinessWhat you believe is 'more interesting' should not be a determining factor when making decisions for your League, but rather an objective view as to whether or not the decision would be a benefit to your league, both in viewership and participation.

I believe that having a healthy competitive ecosystem is a benefit to viewership and participation. If a healthy portion of teams in the top level of play, regardless of format, feel they can contest the top team(s), that leads to better participation and viewership.

DrHappinessYou have established this rule only to say you will never use it again most likely, making it seem like the rule is only being made since you don't like froyotech being as strong as they are, almost like reverse favoritism.

I also listed a bunch of data showing how strong they are and how my goal is to create a healthy competitive ecosystem. It's not like I picked them out of the blue because they won a game one time.

DrHappinessYou use the latest ESEA season as an example, but forget that the teams distributed themselves naturally and through choice, not the League forcing them to do so.

See the first point. "I believe that having a healthy competitive ecosystem is a benefit to viewership and participation. If a healthy portion of teams in the top level of play, regardless of format, feel they can contest the top team(s), that leads to better participation and viewership."

My point is that in ESEA when you had the top team choose to disband partially, that created a better competitive ecosystem and that's why people are excited over this season. Obviously, there's a difference in the way it's being accomplished, but the end goals are arguably a benefit to the league and viewership.

DrHappinessYou acknowledge that your rule is harsh but apparently made no effort to find a rule that would encourage (not force) a competitive atmosphere or be at all compromising to the players that it would affect the most.

Of the rules that we've played around with if we did make a more general rule. Which is our goal for the next season (depending on how this season goes,) though all teams would be affected. It still would have hit froyotech the hardest due the caliber of players they have on their team and how they've picked up players from other teams over the seasons. The end result would be very similar.

posted 5 months ago
#187 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
JarateKingOr even just a retroactively applied "if a group of players wins 3 or so seasons together, they can't play on the same team" ruling that effectively does the exact same as you currently have.

Because I don't think that's a good rule. If you have a healthy competitive ecosystem, but one team has been clinical in playoffs, is different than one team has a large gap from 1st to 2nd place for multiple seasons in a row and it's not being overcome. Very different situations and a blanket rule wouldn't be nuanced enough to sort that out.

JarateKingAnd why wait until the future to do better? A lot of people have complaints with the core concept, but you already have direct advice and constructive feedback you can work with right now, that as far as I can see you've completely ignored. You don't need to get the ideal solution right off the bat, but even just setting a precedent for "these guys are too good, so seemingly on a whim here's a rule that only applies to them" is problematic.

That's fair, mostly waiting because I want to do it more effectively and more thought out. We could try to do a quicker solution, but my worry is that if we do something like a true salary cap this moment. If we didn't do it correctly, it wouldn't be effective enough to do what we're trying to do. I have ideas on how I'd like to implement it, but I kind of want to see how this season plays out before we do that.

JarateKingIt's one thing to list off reasons why you don't listen to the community at all (even if I think it's missing the entire point of the "ban pred & degu" thread to bring it up here), but you can't complain about how you just run into arguments here when you yourself are only willing to argue. I want to say it's good that you recognize your decisions need improvement, but as it stands your posts are coming off more like "I'm going to go through with this no matter what, but I also don't want to hear any criticism of this rule that I admit is bad" rather than genuinely trying to discuss the best course of action.

Because most of the discussion isn't a discussion. A major of it is just people using hyperbole and hypotheticals that don't apply or are poorly thought out. There is a handful like the ones that you listed and we think about those, but again it goes to. Will this accomplish our goal? And I know the rule I have, more than likely will, but it's not a sustainable rule. And that's where the evolution comes in but to your points. We could try to do better now.

posted 5 months ago
#176 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
gibussigafooThe only reason we consider this option is due to the fact that almost all the players are doing this for fun on the side. If you're talking about paid athletics, doing this for a full-time job, this decision would be awful.maybe you should just remove the prize pool altogether, then you would really get people who are playing for fun

That's the majority of our player base. About 83% of players playing Prolander in our leagues right now are playing in divisions with no prize pool.

posted 5 months ago
#169 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
directstar1With FROYOtech (11teams)
https://i.imgur.com/z0FQJGH.png

Without FROYOtech (5teams)
https://i.imgur.com/IuHcIxn.png

LOOOOOL
https://i.imgur.com/yBMeEFs.png
Now giiving yearly paychecks to b4nny wouldnt seem like a bad idea right sigafoo?

From earlier on this page

sigafooLast season we didn't have a div-1, we decided to merge the Div-1 into Invite. So we had 8 teams in Invite [last season]. [We also paid out to 6 places in Invite, rather than 2 or 3 as we are this season.]

Currently, we have 4 invite teams and 8 Div-1 teams, so a total of 12 overall. So that'd be more than last season.

Overall between NA and EU, we're expecting to grow about 30-50% from our last seasons depending on how many of the teams fill out. And in Australia our league, we have more teams in our first season than UGC had in HL teams.

---

YeeHawYou just admitted that most players do not agree with this decision, so don’t be so combative when you receive massive backlash, especially when it affects very well known and popular community figureheads.

Also, you constantly saying ‘I could be wrong’, ‘this rule goes too far’ etc. and then not amending the rule is at best laughably idiotic (I definitely had a good laugh when I read that) or at worst you seemingly not changing the rule out of spite towards the community.

I definitely think the majority of players on tf.tv don't agree with me. I've received several messages through DM's (not on tftv) of people expressing gratitude for me making the decision as well.

To be frank, I don't tend to listen to tf.tv opinions anymore, they've been historically very wrong on everything I've done. From claiming that Prolander would never work as a format, for many reasons, including that it'd be too slow. It's not. From claiming that if I just put my money in sixes it would help/fix sixes. It wouldn't (see essentials cup.) That my format is tearing the community apart. It's not. That my league will never take off. It did and is now on three continents. That RGLHL will tear the HL community apart, it didn't. We about 70% of the HL community in the RGL league and HL should actually sustain or slightly grow overall this season. Which is pretty fantastic for this late in TF2, compared to the previous season where sixes and HL both lost about 15% of their players.

When it comes to controversial decisions, this forums seems to consistently be on the wrong side of history.

And then, historically, when I don't change my mind to be more in line with sixes players on tftv who have no interest in a competitive format with all classes being viable. I get labeled as doing things out of "spite," because I don't carry their same perspective and am not afraid to follow through on my actions.

I listen to the Prolander community very much. I'm a very hands-on admin and like to interact with my community fairly often. Their opinions carry much more weight with me, then opinions on here, as they should. Which is why I rarely start threads here, since you guys are not my target audience. Still, this forum often likes to speak hyperbole about me. So I occasionally come back to correct the ignorant statements being made about me, my format or my league. And by doing that, I get label as spiteful, refusing to listen, etc...

And so when I say things like "I could be wrong," but still follow through. It's because we still believe that leagues stepping in to help balance out an unhealthy competitive ecosystem is the right step. We could be wrong on that, but we're going to follow through to find out. Many of you are firm in that leagues should never step in ever and we're curious what happens if a league does. From our own community, we've seen a much more balanced response than here. If our community was fully against this, then we'd almost certainly not have gone through with it.

So then the question is how do we do this? Which is why I'm open that I don't think our implementation is correct. To target one team and why I've called this a temporary measure, as it's not sustainable nor should it be repeated. And once this season is done, we can talk about whether or not it was the correct decision, did it help as intended. etc... And adapt, grow or abandon it based on the results.

posted 5 months ago
#158 froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL in TF2 General Discussion
SpaceCadetLiterally everyone, including myself, trying to argue with someone who is convinced he is right under all circumstances.
His replies/ arguments seem logical but its just mincing words. I can see through that crap and given up even trying to continue. I suggest the same to the rest of you.

I don't think I'm right under all circumstances. If you read through the few posts on here. I've admitted multiple times, that we may be wrong. I've spoken openly about how the rule is not implemented well and literally, the end of the article has an entire section with the header "We could be wrong." Because at RGL, we're not afraid to take chances and be wrong (but learn something along the way.) Even in that article, there are a couple rule changes from mistakes we made in the past that we openly talk about.

I'm not sure what you're huffing about. All I did is took your hyperbole of hypotheticals and looked up the actual facts behind it. That's not me "convinced I'm right all time." That's me pointing out how your hypotheticals are not only misguided, but they don't even apply and to some degree even go against your own argument when you actually look up when rules were implemented.

You can paint me as many things and this forum does, and more, but if you're going to try to paint me as someone who doesn't listen and is convinced their right. I'm pretty sure that's just you. I've shown the ability to listen, adapt and change opinions, but you're still spouting the same ignorant viewpoints about me because I shot down a poor argument by you.

The thing is, most people on here are starting at a different place. They're okay with Froyotech's overwhelming dominance and the gap from 1st to 2nd place. They don't see any major issue with that. Which is a fine and valid way to look at the game. Obviously, everyone prefers a competitive and healthy ecosystem, but the question is... should leagues ever step in to help correct it. That's where the difference really comes in and virtually all professional NA sports leagues have stepped in to correct it. We're trying to figure out if we can, how do we do it, does it work and if so did it make the league better?

That's not me convinced I'm right all the time. That's me unsure and wanting to try out something new and then learn from the experience to make better decisions in the future.

posted 5 months ago
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