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The flaws of 6's
1
#1
0 Frags +

rewatching sideshow's old video on the subject at hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDM5ThcDRiQ
I was thinking about the flaws of 6's in general:

Is 5cp still flawed as it was back then 5 years ago?
How come we don't experiment with attack/defence anymore?
What other flaws exist currently in today's meta and do you have any solutions to them?

rewatching sideshow's old video on the subject at hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDM5ThcDRiQ
I was thinking about the flaws of 6's in general:

Is 5cp still flawed as it was back then 5 years ago?
How come we don't experiment with attack/defence anymore?
What other flaws exist currently in today's meta and do you have any solutions to them?
2
#2
-3 Frags +

Ther arnt any

Ther arnt any
3
#3
26 Frags +

gravelpit was the best map we ever played in comp and we threw it all away.

gravelpit was the best map we ever played in comp and we threw it all away.
4
#4
15 Frags +

the flaws are still there but teams dont really abuse them at the moment (this video was made in old se7en timeline) so no one really cares

the flaws are still there but teams dont really abuse them at the moment (this video was made in old se7en timeline) so no one really cares
5
#5
71 Frags +

5cp kinda sucks but whatever
stopwatch is kinda lame and no one knows how to make an a/d map and making maps is extremely underappreciated and people would just complain if someone tried to make a map that wasn't blatantly process again for the 40th time

5cp kinda sucks but whatever
stopwatch is kinda lame and no one knows how to make an a/d map and making maps is extremely underappreciated and people would just complain if someone tried to make a map that wasn't blatantly process again for the 40th time
6
#6
newbie.tf
1 Frags +
RahmedIs 5cp still flawed as it was back then 5 years ago?

imo not really

RahmedHow come we don't experiment with attack/defence anymore?

stopwatch is super fun but makes a game more chance-oriented imo. one lucky situation can snowball into a whole half win rather than a couple cps or, at best, a round

RahmedWhat other flaws exist currently in today's meta and do you have any solutions to them?

i think the biggest thing rn to worry about is teams that are really good and really slow. that sideshow vid was made when se7en was dominant (i think), and that's probably what he's talking about. the 6s format can be abused. most people just don't because it's boring as hell and the stakes are so low

[quote=Rahmed]Is 5cp still flawed as it was back then 5 years ago?[/quote]
imo not really

[quote=Rahmed]How come we don't experiment with attack/defence anymore?[/quote]
stopwatch is super fun but makes a game more chance-oriented imo. one lucky situation can snowball into a whole half win rather than a couple cps or, at best, a round

[quote=Rahmed]What other flaws exist currently in today's meta and do you have any solutions to them?[/quote]
i think the biggest thing rn to worry about is teams that are really good and really slow. that sideshow vid was made when se7en was dominant (i think), and that's probably what he's talking about. the 6s format [i]can[/i] be abused. most people just don't because it's boring as hell and the stakes are so low
7
#7
32 Frags +

5cp sucks to spectate but it fuckin owns to play. a little bit of downtime here and there is really nice honestly and if you're having too much of it then you're not playing properly.

At this point most people play this game because of the way it's "supposed" to be played, the community's too small IMO to really sink investment into massive shakeup experiments (see 4s, Arena Respawn, Prolander, NR 6s). People have played with the flaws for years now and it hasn't really gotten more noticeable, so why try to fix them when almost every idea people (at least people with influence) have had for change has been bad?

I have a theory that highlander-brained type people cant stand 6s because they need something to be happening constantly, every single second, even if its meaningless. When there's a bit of a lull in the "action"—maybe even ubers, just took mid, both teams waiting for respawns—they can't just sit and assess the situation, poke the flank, talk through next moves, or just take a sip of water.

Feels sort of like how people used to big modern blockbusters can't stand to watch slower or older movies, where there's not constant action, music, snarky dialogue, fat guys farting, whatever

5cp sucks to spectate but it fuckin owns to play. a little bit of downtime here and there is really nice honestly and if you're having too much of it then you're not playing properly.

At this point most people play this game because of the way it's "supposed" to be played, the community's too small IMO to really sink investment into massive shakeup experiments (see 4s, Arena Respawn, Prolander, NR 6s). People have played with the flaws for years now and it hasn't really gotten more noticeable, so why try to fix them when almost every idea people (at least people with influence) have had for change has been bad?


I have a theory that highlander-brained type people cant stand 6s because they need [i]something[/i] to be happening constantly, every single second, even if its meaningless. When there's a bit of a lull in the "action"—maybe even ubers, just took mid, both teams waiting for respawns—they can't just sit and assess the situation, poke the flank, talk through next moves, or just take a sip of water.

Feels sort of like how people used to big modern blockbusters can't stand to watch slower or older movies, where there's not constant action, music, snarky dialogue, fat guys farting, whatever
8
#8
20 Frags +
KevinIsPwnpeople just don't because it's boring as hell and the stakes are so low

also something i've always thought—people play this game for fun, so why ruin your opponents fun + your own just to win an excruciating $20 or something

Rahmedrewatching sideshow's old video on the subject at hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDM5ThcDRiQ

Feels like Sideshow is showing early signs of Overwatch Brain in that, favoring strategies that are intricate mostly due to the number of major varying factors (mentioning class composition here is the big one), vs due to micro-level positioning/target selection decisions (best exemplified in games like Quake or Halo).

Of course I'm not saying such a preference is invalid (it's a shame things like Overwatch or Prolander never quite delivered on those conceptual promises), but I don't think most people in the community would really agree with it, or find playing the game based on it enjoyable.

[quote=KevinIsPwn]people just don't because it's boring as hell and the stakes are so low[/quote]
also something i've always thought—people play this game for fun, so why ruin your opponents fun + your own just to win an excruciating $20 or something

[quote=Rahmed]rewatching sideshow's old video on the subject at hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDM5ThcDRiQ[/quote]
Feels like Sideshow is showing early signs of Overwatch Brain in that, favoring strategies that are intricate mostly due to the number of major varying factors (mentioning class composition here is the big one), vs due to micro-level positioning/target selection decisions (best exemplified in games like Quake or Halo).

Of course I'm not saying such a preference is invalid (it's a shame things like Overwatch or Prolander never quite delivered on those conceptual promises), but I don't think most people in the community would really agree with it, or find playing the game based on it enjoyable.
9
#9
newbie.tf
4 Frags +
zx37KevinIsPwnpeople just don't because it's boring as hell and the stakes are so lowalso something i've always thought—people play this game for fun, so why ruin your opponents fun + your own just to win an excruciating $20 or something

this was my biggest problem when coaching an amateur team a few seasons back. because low teams just sit there and do NOTHING for FOREVER, i just told them to start pushing out of gullywash last off tiny advantages (1 player, slight uber, etc.) even if it was gonna be like 20% success rate. fuck waiting 8 minutes for something to happen

but yeah i don't think it's as much a problem main+ currently, though there are def outliers.

[quote=zx37][quote=KevinIsPwn]people just don't because it's boring as hell and the stakes are so low[/quote]
also something i've always thought—people play this game for fun, so why ruin your opponents fun + your own just to win an excruciating $20 or something[/quote]
this was my biggest problem when coaching an amateur team a few seasons back. because low teams just sit there and do NOTHING for FOREVER, i just told them to start pushing out of gullywash last off tiny advantages (1 player, slight uber, etc.) even if it was gonna be like 20% success rate. fuck waiting 8 minutes for something to happen

but yeah i don't think it's as much a problem main+ currently, though there are def outliers.
10
#10
16 Frags +

i think the 5cp maps desperately need some variation. i miss granary not because it was all that fun but because it was different, so you had to think a little more while playing it

i think the 5cp maps desperately need some variation. i miss granary not because it was all that fun but because it was different, so you had to think a little more while playing it
11
#11
EssentialsTF
9 Frags +

5CP best allows the style of play that we've decided upon for competitive play. There is a heavy emphasis on deathmatch and mobility, where one player can turn the tide of a fight yet cannot do so without the support of their team. 5CP simply gives 6s teams more freedom in terms of mobility and what teamfights to take etc. By all accounts, we can run other gamemodes in 6s (Payload and Attack/Defend tends to be the ones brought up most), but it becomes a question of whether or not we should. Does having more gamemodes create the sort of competitive game that we want? Are what makes comp tf2 good promoted in these modes?

That isn't to say that 5CP is flawless. Unlimited rounds with a round timer reset per cap means that stalemating is an option that doesn't have any significant downsides whereas stopwatch necessitates constant action. In order to create the 6s meta we wanted, we've had to cut out certain classes from being generally usable to prevent 5CP from being absolute torture to play which can be seen in HL or even Casual matches on these maps. Fixed match limit creates potentially 4-5 minutes of garbage time which is unfun for players and spectators alike. But we put up with these flaws because we've determined that the alternatives are worse.

And again, 6s has its issues. However the community decided that 6s promotes the best of what TF2 has to offer and the meta we run is just one consequence of that. Sideshow made such a point in that video, in that the meta isn't what is 'best' but the one that is the most fun or conducive to our preferred playstyle. The one flaw I think should be addressed is encouraging a bit more flexibility in classes/weapons outside of just last holds, but the challenge is how to do that without breaking what we already have. Without external incentives, there's little reason to shake things up for the hell of it.

5CP best allows the style of play that we've decided upon for competitive play. There is a heavy emphasis on deathmatch and mobility, where one player can turn the tide of a fight yet cannot do so without the support of their team. 5CP simply gives 6s teams more freedom in terms of mobility and what teamfights to take etc. By all accounts, we [b]can[/b] run other gamemodes in 6s (Payload and Attack/Defend tends to be the ones brought up most), but it becomes a question of whether or not we [b]should[/b]. Does having more gamemodes create the sort of competitive game that we want? Are what makes comp tf2 good promoted in these modes?

That isn't to say that 5CP is flawless. Unlimited rounds with a round timer reset per cap means that stalemating is an option that doesn't have any significant downsides whereas stopwatch necessitates constant action. In order to create the 6s meta we wanted, we've had to cut out certain classes from being generally usable to prevent 5CP from being absolute torture to play which can be seen in HL or even Casual matches on these maps. Fixed match limit creates potentially 4-5 minutes of garbage time which is unfun for players and spectators alike. But we put up with these flaws because we've determined that the alternatives are worse.

And again, 6s has its issues. However the community decided that 6s promotes the best of what TF2 has to offer and the meta we run is just one consequence of that. Sideshow made such a point in that video, in that the meta isn't what is 'best' but the one that is the most fun or conducive to our preferred playstyle. The one flaw I think should be addressed is encouraging a bit more flexibility in classes/weapons outside of just last holds, but the challenge is how to do that without breaking what we already have. Without external incentives, there's little reason to shake things up for the hell of it.
12
#12
14 Frags +

normalize walking back to spawn to go sniper/spy

normalize walking back to spawn to go sniper/spy
13
#13
2 Frags +

payload race

payload race
14
#14
1 Frags +

6v6 koth arena please

6v6 koth arena please
15
#15
-5 Frags +

The flaw never was the 6's playstyle. It was / is the only option available and there is sadly no better way to play this version of Team Fortress.

The flaw is the way TF2 was designed from the beginning. Team Fortress was always a CTF dominated play style that was proven to work on all levels. Every class had their roles to play and CTF always offered the proper flow for match environments.

By comparison, 6's is a terribly slow style and helped to breed the "stalemate" gameplay you see in every 6's match. Sacrifice plays, leap frog tactics and parking the bus are all a result of slow gameplay.

It also didn't help that no valid CTF maps were created for match / league play in the beginning of TF2.

The flaw never was the 6's playstyle. It was / is the only option available and there is sadly no better way to play this version of Team Fortress.

The flaw is the way TF2 was designed from the beginning. Team Fortress was always a CTF dominated play style that was proven to work on all levels. Every class had their roles to play and CTF always offered the proper flow for match environments.

By comparison, 6's is a terribly slow style and helped to breed the "stalemate" gameplay you see in every 6's match. Sacrifice plays, leap frog tactics and parking the bus are all a result of slow gameplay.

It also didn't help that no valid CTF maps were created for match / league play in the beginning of TF2.
16
#16
-6 Frags +

how much has competitive CTF been tried, have people tried making specific comp CTF maps? you can avoid some of the more superficial flaws of pub CTF pretty easily with weapon and class restrictions, a lower player count, etc. at the very least.

how much has competitive CTF been tried, have people tried making specific comp CTF maps? you can avoid some of the more superficial flaws of pub CTF pretty easily with weapon and class restrictions, a lower player count, etc. at the very least.
17
#17
11 Frags +
toads_tfhow much has competitive CTF been tried, have people tried making specific comp CTF maps? you can avoid some of the more superficial flaws of pub CTF pretty easily with weapon and class restrictions, a lower player count, etc. at the very least.

All I really remember is turbine_pro, nobody actually spent time making a ctf m,ap from the ground up for 6s. I played turbine in a couple of seasons and honestly it was just a shit DM fest where you would DM until someone was down enough that you could cap. Either that, or 5 would fight on mid and 1 would go for the flag over and over.

[quote=toads_tf]how much has competitive CTF been tried, have people tried making specific comp CTF maps? you can avoid some of the more superficial flaws of pub CTF pretty easily with weapon and class restrictions, a lower player count, etc. at the very least.[/quote]

All I really remember is turbine_pro, nobody actually spent time making a ctf m,ap from the ground up for 6s. I played turbine in a couple of seasons and honestly it was just a shit DM fest where you would DM until someone was down enough that you could cap. Either that, or 5 would fight on mid and 1 would go for the flag over and over.
18
#18
-3 Frags +

Make it so that you can enter forward spawn from the outside(without someone opening it after dying) and everything is fixed

Make it so that you can enter forward spawn from the outside(without someone opening it after dying) and everything is fixed
19
#19
4 Frags +
Spe0Make it so that you can enter forward spawn from the outside(without someone opening it after dying) and everything is fixed

the only issue is medics running into spawn when they get bombed

[quote=Spe0]Make it so that you can enter forward spawn from the outside(without someone opening it after dying) and everything is fixed[/quote]

the only issue is medics running into spawn when they get bombed
20
#20
10 Frags +

5cp is a good gamemode in 6s. Similar to botmode's comment, the community will never allow for new 5cp maps to be made so the maps we play now are just overplayed and stale, no one ever gives new maps a chance that are remotely different from current meta and thus the game will pretty much always be at a standstill.

5cp is a good gamemode in 6s. Similar to botmode's comment, the community will never allow for new 5cp maps to be made so the maps we play now are just overplayed and stale, no one ever gives new maps a chance that are remotely different from current meta and thus the game will pretty much always be at a standstill.
21
#21
18 Frags +
lucrative5cp is a good gamemode in 6s. Similar to botmode's comment, the community will never allow for new 5cp maps to be made so the maps we play now are just overplayed and stale, no one ever gives new maps a chance that are remotely different from current meta and thus the game will pretty much always be at a standstill.

this is why we should bring back blands and gran :D
they're both very different from Processcore maps but people are also used to them

[quote=lucrative]5cp is a good gamemode in 6s. Similar to botmode's comment, the community will never allow for new 5cp maps to be made so the maps we play now are just overplayed and stale, no one ever gives new maps a chance that are remotely different from current meta and thus the game will pretty much always be at a standstill.[/quote]
this is why we should bring back blands and gran :D
they're both very different from Processcore maps but people are also used to them
22
#22
0 Frags +

bring back reckoner

bring back reckoner
23
#23
9 Frags +

the core problem of 6s has always been stalemating, but it doesn't have anything to do with map or game mode design.

you can make 5cp maps bigger with wider chokes so teams can push into points without using early, except it would make sniper overpowered and projectile classes worse.

you can make attacker spawns closer to capture points or defender spawns farther away so there is less penalty playing aggressively, but now the game snowballs hard and heavily favors the team that wins mid.

you can add a shot clock and enforce it so teams are pressured to push more without addressing WHY the game stalemates, so you'll just frustrate players by forcing them to take uber exchanges they don't want.

the real issue is that the only consistent way to break stalemates is ubercharge. the only real tool you have in this game. setting up sniper/spy or sac plays to break a last hold take way too long and are easy to counter. when those plays don't work the defending team still doesn't have enough of an advantage to push out of last too. that's not going to change because we're past the point of Valve adding new abilities or reworking and rebalancing classes for that.

one problem with ubercharge is that the team that pops first (assuming equal ubers) is already at a disadvantage. who usually has to pop uber first? the aggressive team that ubers through a choke trying to break the stalemate. so stock medigun is responsible for giving defensive teams enough of an advantage to slow the game down when there are equal ubers.

compare that to kritzkrieg on both teams where the team that uses first usually has the upper hand, promoting aggressive play. playing against kritz also might not be as oppressive as playing against stock when your team has uber disadvantage so there could be more room for counterplay. it also charges faster.

I am totally guessing but experimenting with different medigun metas and banning stock medigun could improve 6s or lead to new problems. kritzkrieg only for example. I remember people liked how quick-fix meta made the game faster a long time ago until invite teams ran full-time heavy, so it might have worked out if heavy was completely banned.

the core problem of 6s has always been stalemating, but it doesn't have anything to do with map or game mode design.

you can make 5cp maps bigger with wider chokes so teams can push into points without using early, except it would make sniper overpowered and projectile classes worse.

you can make attacker spawns closer to capture points or defender spawns farther away so there is less penalty playing aggressively, but now the game snowballs hard and heavily favors the team that wins mid.

you can add a shot clock and enforce it so teams are pressured to push more without addressing WHY the game stalemates, so you'll just frustrate players by forcing them to take uber exchanges they don't want.

the real issue is that the only consistent way to break stalemates is ubercharge. the only real tool you have in this game. setting up sniper/spy or sac plays to break a last hold take way too long and are easy to counter. when those plays don't work the defending team still doesn't have enough of an advantage to push out of last too. that's not going to change because we're past the point of Valve adding new abilities or reworking and rebalancing classes for that.

one problem with ubercharge is that the team that pops first (assuming equal ubers) is already at a disadvantage. who usually has to pop uber first? the aggressive team that ubers through a choke trying to break the stalemate. so stock medigun is responsible for giving defensive teams enough of an advantage to slow the game down when there are equal ubers.

compare that to kritzkrieg on both teams where the team that uses first usually has the upper hand, promoting aggressive play. playing against kritz also might not be as oppressive as playing against stock when your team has uber disadvantage so there could be more room for counterplay. it also charges faster.

I am totally guessing but experimenting with different medigun metas and banning stock medigun could improve 6s or lead to new problems. kritzkrieg only for example. I remember people liked how quick-fix meta made the game faster a long time ago until invite teams ran full-time heavy, so it might have worked out if heavy was completely banned.
24
#24
33 Frags +

Stalemates are a result of neither team having a reason to be the aggressor in an equal situation. I personally would be hesitant to call stalemates and slow gameplay a flaw because having the time to set up plays is some of the more interesting tactical decisions you get to make in this game. Koth doesn't have this problem as one team is always pressured but tf2 doesn't have a depth of tactical choices like csgo to make this actually interesting which leaves koth to be the most shallow type of map in the pool.

I think regardless of what other game mode you try that has a clear attack and defending side you will see a similar outcome. This is all forgetting that this game is purely played for fun and I don't think most people got in to 6v6 to play heavy all game.

Stalemates are a result of neither team having a reason to be the aggressor in an equal situation. I personally would be hesitant to call stalemates and slow gameplay a flaw because having the time to set up plays is some of the more interesting tactical decisions you get to make in this game. Koth doesn't have this problem as one team is always pressured but tf2 doesn't have a depth of tactical choices like csgo to make this actually interesting which leaves koth to be the most shallow type of map in the pool.

I think regardless of what other game mode you try that has a clear attack and defending side you will see a similar outcome. This is all forgetting that this game is purely played for fun and I don't think most people got in to 6v6 to play heavy all game.
25
#25
32 Frags +

make a custom medigun that charges uber 10% faster and allows the charge bar to go to 120%

if you get to 120% uber, you die

make a custom medigun that charges uber 10% faster and allows the charge bar to go to 120%

if you get to 120% uber, you die
26
#26
0 Frags +
DanceNumbergravelpit was the best map we ever played in comp and we threw it all away.

#bringbackgpit

[quote=DanceNumber]gravelpit was the best map we ever played in comp and we threw it all away.[/quote]

#bringbackgpit
27
#27
10 Frags +
SpaceCadetIt also didn't help that no valid CTF maps were created for match / league play in the beginning of TF2.

the problem isn't the maps, it's that TF2 CTF is unplayable due to not being able to return flags

[quote=SpaceCadet]
It also didn't help that no valid CTF maps were created for match / league play in the beginning of TF2.[/quote]

the problem isn't the maps, it's that TF2 CTF is unplayable due to not being able to return flags
28
#28
21 Frags +
scrambledmake a custom medigun that charges uber 10% faster and allows the charge bar to go to 120%

if you get to 120% uber, you die

unironically based idea

[quote=scrambled]make a custom medigun that charges uber 10% faster and allows the charge bar to go to 120%

if you get to 120% uber, you die[/quote]
unironically based idea
29
#29
-1 Frags +

i want to try kritz only tf2 can we run pugs with it or something

i want to try kritz only tf2 can we run pugs with it or something
30
#30
7 Frags +
jetzi want to try kritz only tf2 can we run pugs with it or something

permaengi meta lets goooooo

[quote=jetz]i want to try kritz only tf2 can we run pugs with it or something[/quote]
permaengi meta lets goooooo
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