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rgl anti sandbagging rules
1
#1
0 Frags +

rgl sandbagging rules are at the best inconsistent and at worst completely arbitrary and completely up to the whims of admins. from following discussion threads and talking to people, the noticeable anomalies are (bolded are egregious examples):

division 1:

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monsta is banned from everything except medic despite, to my knowledge, never playing on anything except scout in invite.
umlpst is banned from soldier despite having never played soldier in invite
ambroon is banned from demo. has not played invite in the last 5 seasons
alan is banned from soldier despite having never played soldier in invite and never having won this division.
ether is banned from soldier despite never having made playoffs invite.
exile is banned from scout but not other classes.
(it should be noted that both exile and ether have not made invite playoffs, which may have gone into decision making, but i guess we will never know)
MIRRORMAN BANNED FROM EVERYTHING EXCEPT PYRO IN D1 IS AN ACTUAL OMEGALUL
donovin is banned from soldier despite having never made invite

division 2:

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last season, shining star mainclassed a division lower when she is a playoff div 1 scout.
yumyum is banned from playing in the division they played in last season.
penny is not banned from their main class in div-2 this season despite being banned last season
pennys teammate, ult, is banned from their main in div-2.
don dorito is allowed to play div-2 despite the fact that his team should have won div-2 before his team got banned for tanking
ktb has multiple seasons of invite (s27-s31) and is allowed to mainclass in low advance

main:

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parsuh is banned from scout in main having made 2nd in main.
contrast this to deadlyseed having made 3rd in main is still allowed to play in main.
rgl s2, mono72 was denied as a ringer despite having played in main the season prior on halo on9. the match he was asked to ring for was against sword art on9, which had players from halo on9 on it (his teammates could play in main, but he couldn't)

im:

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last season, blanket was banned from scout 2 weeks (!!!) into the season. the reasoning given was 'we thought it was a different blanket.' (bro what does that mean. if this doesnt show that the admin team of rgl is so incompetent that they cant fucking click on someones profile to find out who they are idk what does)
wackyfire is banned from scout for both: 1 being playoffs main (despite never having made playoffs in main), and 2 playing two seasons of main despite only having played one season of main.
meanwhile, last season, ally, despite having actually made playoffs in main, was allowed to mainclass in im.
also of note is that fantaaddiction is not banned from demoman despite having played a seasons of main.
lecrum is playing scout in im despite having two seasons in main, played esea im in s30
jas has won open in rgl and im in rgl, and is playing im again

to be clear, i am not saying that everybody in this list needs to be banned or unbanned. I am pointing out the inconsistencies and the seemingly arbitrary rulings made by the admins.
in my opinion, it should not be based on 'x playing y in division z makes their team a likely candidate for winning the division.'
the point of anti sandbagging rules should be to stop:
a) repeated offenders which are intentionally not moving up across the course of several seasons
b) playoffs players of one division dropping down a full division

tldr:
rgl is not transparent and consistent about their bans. admins seem to be able to decide whatever they want, whenever they want, and its kind of bs.

rgl sandbagging rules are at the best inconsistent and at worst completely arbitrary and completely up to the whims of admins. from following discussion threads and talking to people, the noticeable anomalies are (bolded are egregious examples):

division 1:
[spoiler]
[b]monsta is banned from everything except medic despite, to my knowledge, never playing on anything except scout in invite.[/b]
[b]umlpst is banned from soldier despite having never played soldier in invite[/b]
ambroon is banned from demo. has not played invite in the last 5 seasons
[b]alan is banned from soldier despite having never played soldier in invite and never having won this division.[/b]
ether is banned from soldier despite never having made playoffs invite.
exile is banned from scout but not other classes.
(it should be noted that both exile and ether have not made invite playoffs, which may have gone into decision making, but i guess we will never know)
MIRRORMAN BANNED FROM EVERYTHING EXCEPT PYRO IN D1 IS AN ACTUAL OMEGALUL
donovin is banned from soldier despite having never made invite
[/spoiler]

division 2:
[spoiler]
last season, shining star mainclassed a division lower when she is a playoff div 1 scout.
[b]yumyum is banned from playing in the division they played in last season.[/b]
penny is not banned from their main class in div-2 this season despite being banned last season
pennys teammate, ult, is banned from their main in div-2.
don dorito is allowed to play div-2 despite the fact that his team should have won div-2 before his team got banned for tanking
[b]ktb has multiple seasons of invite (s27-s31) and is allowed to mainclass in low advance[/b]
[/spoiler]

main:
[spoiler]
parsuh is banned from scout in main having made 2nd in main.
contrast this to deadlyseed having made 3rd in main is still allowed to play in main.
rgl s2, mono72 was denied as a ringer despite having played in main the season prior on halo on9. the match he was asked to ring for was against sword art on9, which had players from halo on9 on it (his teammates could play in main, but he couldn't)
[/spoiler]

im:
[spoiler]
last season, [b]blanket was banned from scout 2 weeks (!!!) into the season[/b]. the reasoning given was 'we thought it was a different blanket.' (bro what does that mean. if this doesnt show that the admin team of rgl is so incompetent that they cant fucking click on someones profile to find out who they are idk what does)
wackyfire is banned from scout for both: 1 being playoffs main (despite never having made playoffs in main), and 2 playing two seasons of main despite only having played one season of main.
meanwhile, last season, ally, despite having actually made playoffs in main, was allowed to mainclass in im.
also of note is that fantaaddiction is not banned from demoman despite having played a seasons of main.
lecrum is playing scout in im despite having two seasons in main, played esea im in s30
jas has won open in rgl and im in rgl, and is playing im again
[/spoiler]

to be clear, i am not saying that everybody in this list needs to be banned or unbanned. I am pointing out the inconsistencies and the seemingly arbitrary rulings made by the admins.
in my opinion, it should not be based on 'x playing y in division z makes their team a likely candidate for winning the division.'
the point of anti sandbagging rules should be to stop:
a) repeated offenders which are intentionally not moving up across the course of several seasons
b) playoffs players of one division dropping down a full division

tldr:
rgl is not transparent and consistent about their bans. admins seem to be able to decide whatever they want, whenever they want, and its kind of bs.
2
#2
39 Frags +

damn reako you aint have expose em like that

damn reako you aint have expose em like that
3
#3
54 Frags +

this just in: rgl admins are retarded

this just in: rgl admins are retarded
4
#4
5 Frags +

I don't disagree with some people being class restricted in lower divs, but it would be nice to see the guidelines or thought process behind the decisions. Surely there must be a standard decision making procedure that the admins follow?

I don't disagree with some people being class restricted in lower divs, but it would be nice to see the guidelines or thought process behind the decisions. Surely there must be a standard decision making procedure that the admins follow?
5
#5
14 Frags +

Even though a lot of people dont know me, or would care.
After Season 1 I was banned from playing open except on med, or at least was told by someone who talked with sigafoo, even though my team only made it to only the second week of playoffs. That season I played soldier for the first 3-4 weeks and then scout for the rest of the season, and during that time my scout dm was mediocre at best even for open. During S2 I was going to make a team and play demo, but sigafoo said something along the lines of "My 6s team has determined that seven1 and (Another player) cannot play anything but med in open sorry". I literally had no other comp experience with demo other than in pugs. The reason the other player was denied from playing in open is because they played in ESEA Open, even though I had played during the last season of Open as soldier and was on a Low Mid team.

It just makes no sense of the bans that they make, even below the IM level. I feel like having a ruleset given to players for something like this seems like it would be something that would have been provided in S1 6s if not before than with HL or PL. Hopefully they can make a ruleset for this because it would help a lot with making a team in the lower divs with either people who have played in ugc/roster rode or older players who havent played in a while.

Even though a lot of people dont know me, or would care.
After Season 1 I was banned from playing open except on med, or at least was told by someone who talked with sigafoo, even though my team only made it to only the second week of playoffs. That season I played soldier for the first 3-4 weeks and then scout for the rest of the season, and during that time my scout dm was mediocre at best even for open. During S2 I was going to make a team and play demo, but sigafoo said something along the lines of "My 6s team has determined that seven1 and (Another player) cannot play anything but med in open sorry". I literally had no other comp experience with demo other than in pugs. The reason the other player was denied from playing in open is because they played in ESEA Open, even though I had played during the last season of Open as soldier and was on a Low Mid team.

It just makes no sense of the bans that they make, even below the IM level. I feel like having a ruleset given to players for something like this seems like it would be something that would have been provided in S1 6s if not before than with HL or PL. Hopefully they can make a ruleset for this because it would help a lot with making a team in the lower divs with either people who have played in ugc/roster rode or older players who havent played in a while.
6
#6
-22 Frags +

u should only be banned from a div on a class if u win it twice or place second 3 times

u should only be banned from a div on a class if u win it twice or place second 3 times
7
#7
57 Frags +

Why are all these players banned from div1 lmao ether soldier is the only one that makes sense. Shouldn't the div below invite allow up and coming players/teams to practice together and improve versus forcing players to form these hodgepodges of offclassers? Alanny is good but if he can't get picked up on an invite team this basically just prevents him from playing his main (and presumably favorite) class at all which is super lame (same for um and everyone else who was in div1)

Hell it's even possible that the team that wins the div1 dies and some of the individual players don't end up finding invite teams, don't you want them to be able to join or form teams in div1 that can improve together and have another shot at playing invite? Otherwise these players are effectively removed from the system just by virtue of winning and getting unlucky. Invite this season only has 6 teams so it is even more selective for div1 players to get picked up, it seems very unreasonable to just block them from playing imo. If your anti-sandbagging rules are forcing people to offclass or potentially switch their main (if they are permanently banned from the class in the future) that's probably not a good thing...

Also, I would argue that it is better to risk having "stacked" div1 teams with people who did well in playoffs because that allows more teams to move up to invite. ESEA was way too lenient (and shouldn't have let 8k and johnmilter sandbag as much), but at least there were always teams alive at a high IM level that could be moved up to invite when it needed teams. Having 9 teams in invite every season definitely felt more healthy than such a small division as 6 teams where one team dying can drastically change the dynamics of the season and playoffs. But if RGL is fine with 6 team invite and wants to be more restrictive that's their prerogative obviously.

Why are all these players banned from div1 lmao ether soldier is the only one that makes sense. Shouldn't the div below invite allow up and coming players/teams to practice together and improve versus forcing players to form these hodgepodges of offclassers? Alanny is good but if he can't get picked up on an invite team this basically just prevents him from playing his main (and presumably favorite) class at all which is super lame (same for um and everyone else who was in div1)

Hell it's even possible that the team that wins the div1 dies and some of the individual players don't end up finding invite teams, don't you want them to be able to join or form teams in div1 that can improve together and have another shot at playing invite? Otherwise these players are effectively removed from the system just by virtue of winning and getting unlucky. Invite this season only has 6 teams so it is even more selective for div1 players to get picked up, it seems very unreasonable to just block them from playing imo. If your anti-sandbagging rules are forcing people to offclass or potentially switch their main (if they are permanently banned from the class in the future) that's probably not a good thing...

Also, I would argue that it is better to risk having "stacked" div1 teams with people who did well in playoffs because that allows more teams to move up to invite. ESEA was way too lenient (and shouldn't have let 8k and johnmilter sandbag as much), but at least there were always teams alive at a high IM level that could be moved up to invite when it needed teams. Having 9 teams in invite every season definitely felt more healthy than such a small division as 6 teams where one team dying can drastically change the dynamics of the season and playoffs. But if RGL is fine with 6 team invite and wants to be more restrictive that's their prerogative obviously.
8
#8
69 Frags +
batemanu should only be banned from a div on a class if u win it twice or place second 3 times

https://puu.sh/GvZ4c/41fc04c7de.png

[quote=bateman]u should only be banned from a div on a class if u win it twice or place second 3 times[/quote]
[img]https://puu.sh/GvZ4c/41fc04c7de.png[/img]
9
#9
9 Frags +

Admittedly things weren't handled great by all parties, but last season we spent literal weeks getting "maybe idk ask X" answers on what the class restrictions were for two of my players. That should not be a multi week process.

Admittedly things weren't handled great by all parties, but last season we spent literal weeks getting "maybe idk ask X" answers on what the class restrictions were for two of my players. That should not be a multi week process.
10
#10
17 Frags +

just let people play the classes they want to play. outside of egregious examples (such as 8k in im, jm,) people should be allowed to play the class they want to play in div 1/2.

just let people play the classes they want to play. outside of egregious examples (such as 8k in im, jm,) people should be allowed to play the class they want to play in div 1/2.
11
#11
-2 Frags +
knsumebatemanu should only be banned from a div on a class if u win it twice or place second 3 times https://puu.sh/GvZ4c/41fc04c7de.png

oh fuck!

[quote=knsume][quote=bateman]u should only be banned from a div on a class if u win it twice or place second 3 times[/quote] https://puu.sh/GvZ4c/41fc04c7de.png[/quote]
oh fuck!
12
#12
28 Frags +

I think we should try to shoot for 9 team invites again like in ESEA. Still not quite sure why invite’s goal is 7 week DRR with 8 teams. The more invite teams the better imo. This raises the concern of actually needing 9 invite teams, but I think that’s currently an issue of low invite culture, not the amount of low invite players, which in my opinion, are actually pretty abundant?

I think RGL could introduce some sort of new inventive to get people to play invite that hasn’t been done before. This idea might be dogshit but I came up with it while writing this post:

Cut the league fees for first-time Invite players by some %. Maybe make it cost the same as Div-1. At the very least this will incentivize a new rotation invite players coming through div-1 for like 2 seasons, and if it works out and these low invite players find out they actually enjoy the competition they will hopefully be willing to spend the full invite price to play again next season. If not, you get a new batch of top div-1 teams to rotate out for the bottom invite teams that decided they don’t want to play.

As I was writing THAT idea I came up with another idea/extension of that idea. Those cut prices could be a REWARD for the top 4 div-1 teams if they so desire to move up to invite. This will also hopefully incentivize teams living for more than one season. Put a restriction on what counts as a team moving up, maybe 4/6 of the original roster? Idk.

The biggest hole I can find with my ideas is that people probably don’t care about the 10 dollars they’ll save and it’s more about going 14-2 in div 1 rather than 2-14 in invite. Oh well.

I think we should try to shoot for 9 team invites again like in ESEA. Still not quite sure why invite’s goal is 7 week DRR with 8 teams. The more invite teams the better imo. This raises the concern of actually needing 9 invite teams, but I think that’s currently an issue of low invite culture, not the amount of low invite players, which in my opinion, are actually pretty abundant?

I think RGL could introduce some sort of new inventive to get people to play invite that hasn’t been done before. This idea might be dogshit but I came up with it while writing this post:

Cut the league fees for first-time Invite players by some %. Maybe make it cost the same as Div-1. At the very least this will incentivize a new rotation invite players coming through div-1 for like 2 seasons, and if it works out and these low invite players find out they actually enjoy the competition they will hopefully be willing to spend the full invite price to play again next season. If not, you get a new batch of top div-1 teams to rotate out for the bottom invite teams that decided they don’t want to play.

As I was writing THAT idea I came up with another idea/extension of that idea. Those cut prices could be a REWARD for the top 4 div-1 teams if they so desire to move up to invite. This will also hopefully incentivize teams living for more than one season. Put a restriction on what counts as a team moving up, maybe 4/6 of the original roster? Idk.

The biggest hole I can find with my ideas is that people probably don’t care about the 10 dollars they’ll save and it’s more about going 14-2 in div 1 rather than 2-14 in invite. Oh well.
13
#13
32 Frags +

it would be nice if they hadn't waited until 1 day before matches started to tell us our player was class restricted at least

it would be nice if they hadn't waited until 1 day before matches started to tell us our player was class restricted at least
14
#14
18 Frags +

IM: Big banned from his main but not rainy or jenkins (all 3 have been rostered in div 2)

also not sure why this player is banned from soldier? https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198113969016&r=40 he hasn't played anything higher than ESEA-O

there are also 2 players class restricted for having invite HL/prolander experience but several others that aren't, maybe they are all pyro mains idk

IM: Big banned from his main but not rainy or jenkins (all 3 have been rostered in div 2)

also not sure why this player is banned from soldier? https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198113969016&r=40 he hasn't played anything higher than ESEA-O

there are also 2 players class restricted for having invite HL/prolander experience but several others that aren't, maybe they are all pyro mains idk
15
#15
21 Frags +

There are a lot of inconsistencies in those lower divs that I have no clue about, and I agree it should be consistent.

This being said though, I don't agree on someone being invite on a class and then playing that class in div 1. If you are div 1 on a class you shouldnt be allowed to play div 2 and that should be consistant.

To my knowledge ether, exile, donovin, and um all planned to play invite this season and held their own on invite teams against other invite teams. Ether and exile were on their own team, Donovin was either gonna be playing for mustard or 8k, and um was on the perfection team even post perfection not getting unbanned.

I'm pretty sure the mirror man class restriction to pyro was a meme because that team was centered around the fact that mirrorman said he would never play a season again unless he got to play full-time pyro. That being said i feel like his class ban should only come if hes invite capable on demo and scout which im not too sure about.

Monsta, im pretty sure, has played both scout and Demoman in invite and played soldier at times for his team which has consistently made top 4 for seasons. I have no doubt he's invite capable on that role.

I want to make note that the most inexperienced invite team this season is virgils team. they are made up of basically 2 teams from last season. 1/2 of virgils team who placed 6th, and 1/3rd of sinkarma's team who placed 2nd. despite this they do well in invite against other established teams in their scrims. I see no reason why anyone whos made top 4 on a class isn't invite ready. On top of that with more low invite teams there's more competition meaning more close games, better scrims, less of a chance going 0-16.

This is just a personal opinion but I'm pretty sure the people with high leniency on their class are also the people that decided they would play low invite last season. the people with harder class restrictions are the ones who have been making div 1 top 4 for seasons on end. Ether Exile and Alexandros all are playing classes they are invite capable on in div 1 but they were also willing to play invite last season.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in those lower divs that I have no clue about, and I agree it should be consistent.

This being said though, I don't agree on someone being invite on a class and then playing that class in div 1. If you are div 1 on a class you shouldnt be allowed to play div 2 and that should be consistant.

To my knowledge ether, exile, donovin, and um all planned to play invite this season and held their own on invite teams against other invite teams. Ether and exile were on their own team, Donovin was either gonna be playing for mustard or 8k, and um was on the perfection team even post perfection not getting unbanned.

I'm pretty sure the mirror man class restriction to pyro was a meme because that team was centered around the fact that mirrorman said he would never play a season again unless he got to play full-time pyro. That being said i feel like his class ban should only come if hes invite capable on demo and scout which im not too sure about.

Monsta, im pretty sure, has played both scout and Demoman in invite and played soldier at times for his team which has consistently made top 4 for seasons. I have no doubt he's invite capable on that role.

I want to make note that the most inexperienced invite team this season is virgils team. they are made up of basically 2 teams from last season. 1/2 of virgils team who placed 6th, and 1/3rd of sinkarma's team who placed 2nd. despite this they do well in invite against other established teams in their scrims. I see no reason why anyone whos made top 4 on a class isn't invite ready. On top of that with more low invite teams there's more competition meaning more close games, better scrims, less of a chance going 0-16.

This is just a personal opinion but I'm pretty sure the people with high leniency on their class are also the people that decided they would play low invite last season. the people with harder class restrictions are the ones who have been making div 1 top 4 for seasons on end. Ether Exile and Alexandros all are playing classes they are invite capable on in div 1 but they were also willing to play invite last season.
16
#16
8 Frags +

Honestly I feel that the ETF2L rule could be adopted and maybe changed a little but it's pretty fair, as long as it's applied properly.

"A team’s active line-up may only consist of a limited amount of higher skilled players that joined after the Provisional Tiers were published. A point system is used to determine this restriction. A player will be given one “point” for each tier of experience higher than the division of the team the player joins.

Example: In 6v6, a Division 2 player joining a Low team will count as two points, which puts the team above the one point limit. For Season 37 experience we will look at matches from Season 34 onwards."

This would mean that the team gets one warning for each match played with this player, and the third warning means permamently losing one league point, in ETF2L at least. This could be changed to be harsher to really put off sandbaggers. I personally played in div 1 a while ago as scout, then when I joined a mid team as soldier was told by admins I couldn't play scout, which was perfectly fair.

Honestly I feel that the ETF2L rule could be adopted and maybe changed a little but it's pretty fair, as long as it's applied properly.

"A team’s active line-up may only consist of a limited amount of higher skilled players that joined after the Provisional Tiers were published. A point system is used to determine this restriction. A player will be given one “point” for each tier of experience higher than the division of the team the player joins.

Example: In 6v6, a Division 2 player joining a Low team will count as two points, which puts the team above the one point limit. For Season 37 experience we will look at matches from Season 34 onwards."

This would mean that the team gets one warning for each match played with this player, and the third warning means permamently losing one league point, in ETF2L at least. This could be changed to be harsher to really put off sandbaggers. I personally played in div 1 a while ago as scout, then when I joined a mid team as soldier was told by admins I couldn't play scout, which was perfectly fair.
17
#17
40 Frags +

donovin should not be banned from soldier in Division 1

exile, the person who played DemoMan five (5) times in invite (and now will be playing it this season in Div1), should not be banned from Scout, the class he has played zero (0) times in Invite

um...banned from playing soldier...in div 1.....come on...bro...................................................really makkabeus....

ether's restriction is the only one that comes close to making any sense

furthermore the fact that all these choices are chiefly made by one bald guy in his 20s is a joke itself

donovin should not be banned from soldier in Division 1

exile, the person who played DemoMan five (5) times in invite (and now will be playing it this season in Div1), should not be banned from Scout, the class he has played zero (0) times in Invite

um...banned from playing soldier...in div 1.....come on...bro...................................................really makkabeus....

ether's restriction is the only one that comes close to making any sense

furthermore the fact that all these choices are chiefly made by one bald guy in his 20s is a joke itself
18
#18
17 Frags +

dude I've been complaining in the rgl surveys about this for at least 2 seasons now

dude I've been complaining in the rgl surveys about this for at least 2 seasons now
19
#19
17 Frags +

ktb is mainclassing in div2? what the fuck rofl

ktb is mainclassing in div2? what the fuck rofl
20
#20
21 Frags +

makka killed my team straight up i might have been playing div 1 but a huge part of why we died was cause um got restricted from soldier xd

makka killed my team straight up i might have been playing div 1 but a huge part of why we died was cause um got restricted from soldier xd
21
#21
19 Frags +

I've been telling the admins since the ShiningStar switch during week 2 of last season that class restriction guidelines need to be stated in the rules to prevent this exact sort of thing from happening: where it's just case-by-case basis via admin discretion. Having any sort of outline would at least form a base of which to work off of. Special cases would be much better received if there was already a foundation in place. It simply cannot be a "this team is okay even with X mainclassing" or "this team is doing bad because of restrictions" situation because it leads to all the inconsistencies. Whether it involves consecutive placements in a div (kronge realm), and / or higher div experience from a longer time ago (KTB)...something, anything, needs to added to the rules.

bearodactylAlso, I would argue that it is better to risk having "stacked" div1 teams with people who did well in playoffs because that allows more teams to move up to invite.

I would agree with this if we actually had examples (in RGL). Of the 13 rosters that started in Div-1 last season, only three of them returned in any capacity. Only one* of the playoff teams returned: kronge realm, who are now (conveniently) offclassing in the same div that they've placed top 3 over the last three seasons. Of the playoff teams from S2 Advanced, only three returned (none to Invite). Same for S1 Advanced. We simply don't have many higher-level teams that stick together - it's why Invite has only seen eight teams once in RGL's four seasons. If this was ESEA tri would have killed Invite before letting only six teams exist in the division.

* Destructive Criticism and babe, it's 10PM sort of merged so it's really like one and a half?

Grape Juice IIIstuff

Invite teams already make "profit" simply by existing and surviving until the end of the season. It costs $240 for a full Invite roster and you get $600 even for coming in dead last - giving each player a $60 profit. Unfortunately, you earn the same amount by winning Div-1 (though 2nd and worse is less profit). So yeah people will rather go for a championship in a lower div than play low Invite when the prize money is the same. Only way around a monetary incentive would be to restructure prize pool distribution and skew it heavy towards Invite, which may or may not sit well with people.

lootIM: Big banned from his main but not rainy or jenkins (all 3 have been rostered in div 2)

Another issue. RGL doesn't keep track of matches played and only roster time, so unless you were following the teams super closely you don't know if someone was actually active on the roster or just a sub. Case in point: BiG was a sub for my Div-2 team last season and played one match. Outside of that he played 10 matches of ESEA IM over two years ago. I don't think that qualifies for a restriction. Then on the other hand you have the aforementioned KTB case.

If people didn't bring this up during the end-of-the-season surveys that's one thing, but I feel like regardless of that there needs to be something in the RULES so people will always know exactly what they can or cannot do. The restrictions and dumb playoff sizes were my two biggest problems with the league last season. They're 0-for-1 already, time will tell what happens down the stretch.

I've been telling the admins since the ShiningStar switch during week 2 of last season that class restriction guidelines need to be stated in the rules to prevent this exact sort of thing from happening: where it's just case-by-case basis via admin discretion. Having any sort of outline would at least form a base of which to work off of. Special cases would be much better received if there was already a foundation in place. It simply cannot be a "this team is okay even with X mainclassing" or "this team is doing bad [i]because[/i] of restrictions" situation because it leads to all the inconsistencies. Whether it involves consecutive placements in a div (kronge realm), and / or higher div experience from a longer time ago (KTB)...something, [i]anything[/i], needs to added to the rules.

[quote=bearodactyl]Also, I would argue that it is better to risk having "stacked" div1 teams with people who did well in playoffs because that allows more teams to move up to invite.[/quote]

I would agree with this if we actually had examples (in RGL). Of the 13 rosters that started in Div-1 last season, only three of them returned in any capacity. Only one* of the playoff teams returned: kronge realm, who are now (conveniently) offclassing in the same div that they've placed top 3 over the last three seasons. Of the playoff teams from S2 Advanced, only three returned (none to Invite). Same for S1 Advanced. We simply don't have many higher-level teams that stick together - it's why Invite has only seen eight teams once in RGL's four seasons. If this was ESEA tri would have killed Invite before letting only six teams exist in the division.

* Destructive Criticism and babe, it's 10PM sort of merged so it's really like one and a half?

[quote=Grape Juice III]stuff[/quote]

Invite teams already make "profit" simply by existing and surviving until the end of the season. It costs $240 for a full Invite roster and you get $600 even for coming in dead last - giving each player a $60 profit. Unfortunately, you earn the same amount by winning Div-1 (though 2nd and worse is less profit). So yeah people will rather go for a championship in a lower div than play low Invite when the prize money is the same. Only way around a monetary incentive would be to restructure prize pool distribution and skew it heavy towards Invite, which may or may not sit well with people.

[quote=loot]IM: Big banned from his main but not rainy or jenkins (all 3 have been rostered in div 2)[/quote]

Another issue. RGL doesn't keep track of matches played and only roster time, so unless you were following the teams super closely you don't know if someone was actually active on the roster or just a sub. Case in point: BiG was a sub for my Div-2 team last season and played one match. Outside of that he played 10 matches of ESEA IM over two years ago. I don't think that qualifies for a restriction. Then on the other hand you have the aforementioned KTB case.

If people didn't bring this up during the end-of-the-season surveys that's one thing, but I feel like regardless of that there needs to be something in the RULES so people will always know exactly what they can or cannot do. The restrictions and dumb playoff sizes were my two biggest problems with the league last season. They're 0-for-1 already, time will tell what happens down the stretch.
22
#22
12 Frags +

Wooooow rgl messed up AGAIN!? What teh fuq o.O

This is going to keep happening and top level tf2 is dying in front of everyone’s eyes (6 team invite 8 team div1 XD)

But atleast newcomer amateur and IM all have 30-60 teams!!!

Wooooow rgl messed up AGAIN!? What teh fuq o.O

This is going to keep happening and top level tf2 is dying in front of everyone’s eyes (6 team invite 8 team div1 XD)

But atleast newcomer amateur and IM all have 30-60 teams!!!
23
#23
33 Frags +

I would like to use this thread to formally challenge Makkabeus_Rex to an arm wrestling match next year at LAN

I would like to use this thread to formally challenge Makkabeus_Rex to an arm wrestling match next year at LAN
24
#24
19 Frags +

In Makka's defense, he's only been head 6s admin for 2 weeks (after Daf decided to quit right before the season started), was given almost no time to organize teams into divs, and could not extend registration in order for matches to not be played on Christmas. However, I won't excuse him from the fact that the upper divs are way too small (which I have literally been telling him for 3+ seasons) and the sandbagging rules are too harsh (I've never been a fan of RGL basing any decision off of scrim results). I'll also say that RGL really needs to have clear sandbagging guidelines and be a lot more realistic when it comes to these class restrictions. Lastly, as much as I like to make fun of Makkabeus for being a tyrannical dictator, he genuinely doesn't make all of the decisions by himself and looks for feedback from the other admins.

In Makka's defense, he's only been head 6s admin for 2 weeks (after Daf decided to quit right before the season started), was given almost no time to organize teams into divs, and could not extend registration in order for matches to not be played on Christmas. However, I won't excuse him from the fact that the upper divs are way too small (which I have literally been telling him for 3+ seasons) and the sandbagging rules are too harsh (I've never been a fan of RGL basing any decision off of scrim results). I'll also say that RGL really needs to have clear sandbagging guidelines and be a lot more realistic when it comes to these class restrictions. Lastly, as much as I like to make fun of Makkabeus for being a tyrannical dictator, he genuinely doesn't make all of the decisions by himself and looks for feedback from the other admins.
25
#25
60 Frags +

https://i.ibb.co/7n9QwMS/rgl.png

[img]https://i.ibb.co/7n9QwMS/rgl.png[/img]
26
#26
2 Frags +

i tried to play rgl with a few irl friends who havent touched tf2 in years and we got put in im and none of my teammates wanted to pay money to get completely rolled every match. none of us even played esea before or anything lol. rgl could be an awesome resource for competitive tf2 if they somehow managed it better.

i tried to play rgl with a few irl friends who havent touched tf2 in years and we got put in im and none of my teammates wanted to pay money to get completely rolled every match. none of us even played esea before or anything lol. rgl could be an awesome resource for competitive tf2 if they somehow managed it better.
27
#27
16 Frags +

I decided to come back to playing tf2 after a two year break and offclass in IM with a few old teammates and some hl players. Right before we need to pay the one player who wanted to play scout gets restricted due to his 7-9 record in main. We really just wanted to have fun this season but having a player restricted off of the one class he really wanted to play with little to no understandable reasoning leaves a bad taste in our mouths.

What we want are real set in stone rules for restrictions. Give us a: "if you get 7 wins or more in the league above you're restricted on the class you played in any lower divisions" rule.

I decided to come back to playing tf2 after a two year break and offclass in IM with a few old teammates and some hl players. Right before we need to pay the one player who wanted to play scout gets restricted due to his 7-9 record in main. We really just wanted to have fun this season but having a player restricted off of the one class he really wanted to play with little to no understandable reasoning leaves a bad taste in our mouths.

What we want are real set in stone rules for restrictions. Give us a: "if you get 7 wins or more in the league above you're restricted on the class you played in any lower divisions" rule.
28
#28
13 Frags +

If division 1 and 2 were combined then most of these bans make sense.

Since the divisions are separate it changes the game completely IMO.

If you decide to make a team and play in Div 1 then your intention should clearly be to advance into invite at some point. That said, where is the problem with playing against high level competition outside of invite on their main class? Lets be further honest, are any of the players on that ban list really that fucking good they need to be banned from a class against other players who have the intention of playing invite? I don't think so and I'm not trying to offend or be a dick but its not like any of those players are high invite to begin with. You WANT to beat those players and prove you belong in invite if you are playing in Div 1. If not, you should not even sign up to play Div 1 and deserve to get stomped if you do.

If division 1 and 2 were combined then most of these bans make sense.

Since the divisions are separate it changes the game completely IMO.

If you decide to make a team and play in Div 1 then your intention should clearly be to advance into invite at some point. That said, where is the problem with playing against high level competition outside of invite on their main class? Lets be further honest, are any of the players on that ban list really that fucking good they need to be banned from a class against other players who have the intention of playing invite? I don't think so and I'm not trying to offend or be a dick but its not like any of those players are high invite to begin with. You WANT to beat those players and prove you belong in invite if you are playing in Div 1. If not, you should not even sign up to play Div 1 and deserve to get stomped if you do.
29
#29
14 Frags +

Make it so if you make playoffs you cant play down a div on that class. List it on their profile so there's no ambiguity. Its already a shitty enough time leading a team without your players arbitrarily getting class restricted on registration day, or having to check every potential pickup and sub with an rgl admin just in case. Most of the restricts in this thread is pretty obviously rgl telling yall to play fucking invite tho.

Make it so if you make playoffs you cant play down a div on that class. List it on their profile so there's no ambiguity. Its already a shitty enough time leading a team without your players arbitrarily getting class restricted on registration day, or having to check every potential pickup and sub with an rgl admin just in case. Most of the restricts in this thread is pretty obviously rgl telling yall to play fucking invite tho.
30
#30
50 Frags +

haha get owned virgins

haha get owned virgins
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