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rgl anti sandbagging rules
31
#31
6 Frags +

dont u guys know these threads give the admins anxiety :\

dont u guys know these threads give the admins anxiety :\
32
#32
33 Frags +
zx37dont u guys know these threads give the admins anxiety :\

makka has no more hair to fall out from stress so its okay

[quote=zx37]dont u guys know these threads give the admins anxiety :\[/quote]

makka has no more hair to fall out from stress so its okay
33
#33
RGL.gg
29 Frags +

This is an important topic, and a big point of discussion among the admins in the past week. We're always aiming for consistent decisions, but we've fallen short of that mark in a few places this season that we want to address. We also haven't done a good job communicating the guidelines we use for sandbagging, which is in part because in the past they haven't been well defined. We've drafted a more formal set of guidelines that will be our benchmark moving forward and we want to share it here.

Our Sandbagging Guidelines

In general, we will class restrict:

  • If a person has made top 4-6 in playoffs multiple times in the same division (depends on the division size)
  • If a person has made playoffs in the division above or higher
  • If a person is demonstrably better on a class than everyone else in a division

In addition, sometimes a team will want to play a lower division than they are able to. In this case, we may further restrict their stronger players to bring the team in line with the rest of the division, even if they might not have been restricted otherwise.

In general, we largely favor recent experience and demonstrated current skill to historical performance as we find it better reflects a player's actual ability. There are also always exceptions, such as when a player is particularly bad or good at an offclass or were noticeably the strongest or weakest player on a previous team. We also handle medic experience differently, and will largely look at a player's fragging class ability rather than med level when evaluating what division they can play. At the moment, we operate mostly under the assumption that if you're rostering on a team, you're able to play at or close to that level. In the near future, the RGL site will have built-in log tracking for matches, which will enable us to do a significantly better job of differentiating mains, subs, and roster riders.

We haven't always hit these ideals, but these are our goals. Several of the current restrictions listed in this thread we revisited because they didn't meet these ideals, while others are a miscommunication of the reasoning behind the restriction.

The Invite and Div-1 Situation

Our ideal goal for a healthy Invite is to see enough players and teams wanting to play Invite that we need to run qualifiers. Having that upward draw propagates through the rest of the league and creates a much better culture of improvement and competitiveness. In an environment like this, we'd see the weakest restrictions in Div-1 as players try to establish themselves as invite-worthy.

Currently, we have the opposite situation. In 3 of the past 4 seasons, we've seen less than 8 teams playing Invite while we see many of the same players repeatedly play Div-1 instead of moving up. Historically, when we've tried to move teams up, they've died or threatened to die. This season, we've been cracking down on this behavior. We'll be expanding on this with additional incentives for moving into Invite and more well-defined and aggressive restrictions until we see a healthy Invite division of 8-10 teams form.

While we're taking a particularly aggressive stance with the proverbial stick this season, there's definitely plenty of carrot too. Many people don't realize, but for every season of RGL Invite, any team that has lived through the end of the season has broken even or made a profit. When accounting for the Invite div fee, placing dead last in S3 Invite earned the same as winning Div-1. There are few to no practical reasons invite-level players should not be playing Invite if there are less than 8-10 invite teams.

This is an important topic, and a big point of discussion among the admins in the past week. We're always aiming for consistent decisions, but we've fallen short of that mark in a few places this season that we want to address. We also haven't done a good job communicating the guidelines we use for sandbagging, which is in part because in the past they haven't been well defined. We've drafted a more formal set of guidelines that will be our benchmark moving forward and we want to share it here.

[size=16]Our Sandbagging Guidelines[/size]

In general, we will class restrict:
[list]
[*] If a person has made top 4-6 in playoffs multiple times in the same division (depends on the division size)
[*] If a person has made playoffs in the division above or higher
[*] If a person is demonstrably better on a class than everyone else in a division
[/list]

In addition, sometimes a team will want to play a lower division than they are able to. In this case, we may further restrict their stronger players to bring the team in line with the rest of the division, even if they might not have been restricted otherwise.

In general, we largely favor recent experience and demonstrated current skill to historical performance as we find it better reflects a player's actual ability. There are also always exceptions, such as when a player is particularly bad or good at an offclass or were noticeably the strongest or weakest player on a previous team. We also handle medic experience differently, and will largely look at a player's fragging class ability rather than med level when evaluating what division they can play. At the moment, we operate mostly under the assumption that if you're rostering on a team, you're able to play at or close to that level. In the near future, the RGL site will have built-in log tracking for matches, which will enable us to do a significantly better job of differentiating mains, subs, and roster riders.

We haven't always hit these ideals, but these are our goals. Several of the current restrictions listed in this thread we revisited because they didn't meet these ideals, while others are a miscommunication of the reasoning behind the restriction.

[size=16]The Invite and Div-1 Situation[/size]

Our ideal goal for a healthy Invite is to see enough players and teams wanting to play Invite that we need to run qualifiers. Having that upward draw propagates through the rest of the league and creates a much better culture of improvement and competitiveness. In an environment like this, we'd see the weakest restrictions in Div-1 as players try to establish themselves as invite-worthy.

Currently, we have the opposite situation. In 3 of the past 4 seasons, we've seen less than 8 teams playing Invite while we see many of the same players repeatedly play Div-1 instead of moving up. Historically, when we've tried to move teams up, they've died or threatened to die. This season, we've been cracking down on this behavior. We'll be expanding on this with additional incentives for moving into Invite and more well-defined and aggressive restrictions until we see a healthy Invite division of 8-10 teams form.

While we're taking a particularly aggressive stance with the proverbial stick this season, there's definitely plenty of carrot too. Many people don't realize, but for every season of RGL Invite, any team that has lived through the end of the season has broken even or made a profit. When accounting for the Invite div fee, placing dead last in S3 Invite earned the same as winning Div-1. There are few to no practical reasons invite-level players should not be playing Invite if there are less than 8-10 invite teams.
34
#34
RGL.gg
22 Frags +

With that in mind, let’s go through the bans brought up and evaluate them.

Div-1

Monsta, umplst, donovin, and ambroon have all placed in Div-1 or its equivalent one or more times and have a track record of playing at this level without playing invite. By the format-wide guidelines, they are appropriately restricted.

Alan placed 2nd last season of Div-1, which means he should move up into invite. While he's a borderline case, so long as we have less than 8 teams in Invite, a restriction like this will stand.

Ether is being restricted from soldier, which is the class he played in invite and won advanced on.

Exile is a borderline case, since he has mostly competed at an invite level on demo, yet has placed in Div-1/Adv on scout. To bring this in-line with our other restrictions, Exile's restriction will be changed to demo to reflect his Invite experience.

Mirrorman was restricted to pyro when the team was initially placed in Div-2. They were moved up to Div-1, where mirrorman would only be restricted from soldier, but the site was not updated before the team died.

Show Content
mikematMost of the restricts in this thread is pretty obviously rgl telling yall to play fucking invite tho.

Div-2 and the rest

A handful of class restrictions in the lower division were a result of the aggressive Div-1 policies being applied to the lower divisions where they shouldn't be. This was a result of the shift in admin staff happening so late this offseason and us not having formalized guidelines. These are both problems we've fixed, and are working to avoid in the future.

yumyum - this was a case of the above. Since he has only placed in Div-2 once, and isn't demonstrably better than most or all of the division, he will be allowed to mainclass in Div-2. This brings him in line with both our policy and DonDorito, who's unrestricted for similar reasoning.

ult and penny are both borderline cases. We will be unrestricting ult to maintain consistency with these.

As mentioned in the guidelines, we care much more about recent experience and placements than historical behavior. KTB has no experience higher than Div-2 in RGL, and has been performing on-par for the division.

Parsuh is another case where the Div-1 standards were incorrectly applied. Their restriction will be lifted.

Wacky and Fanta are both on a team that we initially wanted to place in main. At their request, we restricted Wacky, the player with the most experience, so that the team was able to play IM.

I definitely appreciate the communities' concern over this, and I think we can all agree that fair sandbagging policies are an important part of making the league better. Like you, we realized something was off here, and this was already a hot discussion within the admin team before this thread. While we largely stand behind all of the decisions our team makes, we do make mistakes, and owning up to them and being able to change them is a huge part of our philosophy at RGL. This is an ongoing process, so feel free to message your appropriate division admin regarding specific player restrictions or me at _Makkabeus#9603 for anything regarding RGL 6s.

With that in mind, let’s go through the bans brought up and evaluate them.

[size=16]Div-1[/size]

Monsta, umplst, donovin, and ambroon have all placed in Div-1 or its equivalent one or more times and have a track record of playing at this level without playing invite. By the format-wide guidelines, they are appropriately restricted.

Alan placed 2nd last season of Div-1, which means he should move up into invite. While he's a borderline case, so long as we have less than 8 teams in Invite, a restriction like this will stand.

Ether is being restricted from soldier, which is the class he played in invite and won advanced on.

Exile is a borderline case, since he has mostly competed at an invite level on demo, yet has placed in Div-1/Adv on scout. To bring this in-line with our other restrictions, Exile's restriction will be changed to demo to reflect his Invite experience.

Mirrorman was restricted to pyro when the team was initially placed in Div-2. They were moved up to Div-1, where mirrorman would only be restricted from soldier, but the site was not updated before the team died.

[spoiler][quote=mikemat]Most of the restricts in this thread is pretty obviously rgl telling yall to play fucking invite tho.[/quote][/spoiler]

[size=16]Div-2 and the rest[/size]

A handful of class restrictions in the lower division were a result of the aggressive Div-1 policies being applied to the lower divisions where they shouldn't be. This was a result of the shift in admin staff happening so late this offseason and us not having formalized guidelines. These are both problems we've fixed, and are working to avoid in the future.

yumyum - this was a case of the above. Since he has only placed in Div-2 once, and isn't demonstrably better than most or all of the division, he will be allowed to mainclass in Div-2. This brings him in line with both our policy and DonDorito, who's unrestricted for similar reasoning.

ult and penny are both borderline cases. We will be unrestricting ult to maintain consistency with these.

As mentioned in the guidelines, we care much more about recent experience and placements than historical behavior. KTB has no experience higher than Div-2 in RGL, and has been performing on-par for the division.

Parsuh is another case where the Div-1 standards were incorrectly applied. Their restriction will be lifted.

Wacky and Fanta are both on a team that we initially wanted to place in main. At their request, we restricted Wacky, the player with the most experience, so that the team was able to play IM.

I definitely appreciate the communities' concern over this, and I think we can all agree that fair sandbagging policies are an important part of making the league better. Like you, we realized something was off here, and this was already a hot discussion within the admin team before this thread. While we largely stand behind all of the decisions our team makes, we do make mistakes, and owning up to them and being able to change them is a huge part of our philosophy at RGL. This is an ongoing process, so feel free to message your appropriate division admin regarding specific player restrictions or me at _Makkabeus#9603 for anything regarding RGL 6s.
35
#35
13 Frags +
_MakkabeusOur Sandbagging Guidelines

In general, we will class restrict:
  • If a person has made top 4-6 in playoffs multiple times in the same division (depends on the division size)
  • If a person has made playoffs in the division above or higher
  • If a person is demonstrably better on a class than everyone else in a division
_MakkabeusWith that in mind, let’s go through the bans brought up and evaluate them.

Div-1

Monsta, umplst, donovin, and ambroon have all placed in Div-1 or its equivalent one or more times and have a track record of playing at this level without playing invite. By the format-wide guidelines, they are appropriately restricted.

Monta's ban seems pretty ridiculous counting that he has only placed once during the entirety of rgl and it was last season. On esea, He has only played 1 invite season on scout and like a week of demoman. But that's good enough for rgl to ban him on every class. I am going to assume that your admin group decided to ban monsta according to the 3rd guideline. If that's the case, then you guys are really downplaying the whole div. Monsta on demo is fucking atrocious.

The ambroon ban seems reasonable but how come someone like safrix, who has won the division and has an overall better league record on rgl than ambroon, isn't class restricted.

Ambroon's rgl

Show Content

Safrix's rgl

Show Content

I just don't know how are you guys keep being so inconsistent even with your own made up guidelines. It's so fucking mind boggling.

Also either allow me to change my name or give me the fucking twitter checkmark man

Show Content
[quote=_Makkabeus]Our Sandbagging Guidelines

In general, we will class restrict:

[list]
[*] If a person has made top 4-6 in playoffs multiple times in the same division (depends on the division size)
[*] If a person has made playoffs in the division above or higher
[*] If a person is demonstrably better on a class than everyone else in a division
[/list]
[/quote]
[quote=_Makkabeus]With that in mind, let’s go through the bans brought up and evaluate them.

[size=16]Div-1[/size]

[b]Monsta[/b], umplst, donovin, and [b]ambroon[/b] have all placed in Div-1 or its [b]equivalent one or more times and have a track record of playing at this level without playing invite[/b]. By the format-wide guidelines, they are appropriately restricted.
[/quote]
Monta's ban seems pretty ridiculous counting that he has only placed once during the entirety of rgl and it was last season. On esea, He has only played 1 invite season on scout and like a week of demoman. But that's good enough for rgl to ban him on every class. I am going to assume that your admin group decided to ban monsta according to the 3rd guideline. If that's the case, then you guys are really downplaying the whole div. Monsta on demo is fucking atrocious.

The ambroon ban seems reasonable but how come someone like safrix, who has won the division and has an overall better league record on rgl than ambroon, isn't class restricted.

Ambroon's rgl
[spoiler][img]https://i.ibb.co/3cLbbr9/ambroon.png[/img][/spoiler]
Safrix's rgl
[spoiler][img]https://i.ibb.co/jbxpmHR/safrix.png[/img][/spoiler]

I just don't know how are you guys keep being so inconsistent even with your own made up guidelines. It's so fucking mind boggling.

Also either allow me to change my name or give me the fucking twitter checkmark man
[spoiler][img]https://i.ibb.co/PjGvN22/hahhaa.png[/img][/spoiler]
36
#36
15 Frags +

Ya I don’t see the problem with players main classing in div1 since it’s a small division and it should encourage high level competition just below invite level. That being said, I don’t know what kind of placement it should be (top 2? Top 3?) but you shouldn’t be able to make that placement in div1 and immediately play it again, especially if you have won the division and invite is so dire for teams. We would just run into the 8K ESEA-IM situation all over again.

Restrictions 100% need to be more consistent if they are to be taken seriously and the reasoning behind them should be made public for transparency. There should literally be a public thread made my the admin team with all the restrictions and their explanations for them. (Which seems to be the case with Makkas post above, kudos to him for handling it professionally)

Ya I don’t see the problem with players main classing in div1 since it’s a small division and it should encourage high level competition just below invite level. That being said, I don’t know what kind of placement it should be (top 2? Top 3?) but you shouldn’t be able to make that placement in div1 and immediately play it again, especially if you have won the division and invite is so dire for teams. We would just run into the 8K ESEA-IM situation all over again.

Restrictions 100% need to be more consistent if they are to be taken seriously and the reasoning behind them should be made public for transparency. There should literally be a public thread made my the admin team with all the restrictions and their explanations for them. (Which seems to be the case with Makkas post above, kudos to him for handling it professionally)
37
#37
-35 Frags +
umlpst
Also either allow me to change my name or give me the fucking twitter checkmark man
Show Content

[8:15 PM] tresh: HELLo
[8:15 PM] tresh: sorry caps
[8:15 PM] _Makkabeus: hi
[8:15 PM] tresh: why am i name locked on rgl but have no check mark
[8:15 PM] tresh: what is this
[8:15 PM] _Makkabeus: because froot changed eveyone's name to xlizard last season
[8:15 PM] tresh: ok can i get un name locked
[8:15 PM] tresh: or get a check mark
[11:22 PM] tresh: no response ?
[11:22 PM] _Makkabeus: was busy with admin work
[11:23 PM] _Makkabeus: and no
[11:23 PM] _Makkabeus: at the end of the season you might get a checkmark
[11:23 PM] tresh: so i cant change my name
[11:23 PM] tresh: but im not a verified player
[11:23 PM] tresh: nice!
[11:23 PM] _Makkabeus: is your alias tresh?
[11:23 PM] tresh: i no longer go by tresh
[11:24 PM] tresh: i need to change my alias
[11:24 PM] tresh: is that so difficult
[11:24 PM] _Makkabeus: in tf2? yes
[11:24 PM] _Makkabeus: talk to me after this season and we'll see what i can do

not happening um zzzz. ive been name locked since last season but i have to wait till next season!

[quote=umlpst]

Also either allow me to change my name or give me the fucking twitter checkmark man
[spoiler][img]https://i.ibb.co/PjGvN22/hahhaa.png[/img][/spoiler][/quote]

[8:15 PM] tresh: HELLo
[8:15 PM] tresh: sorry caps
[8:15 PM] _Makkabeus: hi
[8:15 PM] tresh: why am i name locked on rgl but have no check mark
[8:15 PM] tresh: what is this
[8:15 PM] _Makkabeus: because froot changed eveyone's name to xlizard last season
[8:15 PM] tresh: ok can i get un name locked
[8:15 PM] tresh: or get a check mark
[11:22 PM] tresh: no response ?
[11:22 PM] _Makkabeus: was busy with admin work
[11:23 PM] _Makkabeus: and no
[11:23 PM] _Makkabeus: at the end of the season you might get a checkmark
[11:23 PM] tresh: so i cant change my name
[11:23 PM] tresh: but im not a verified player
[11:23 PM] tresh: nice!
[11:23 PM] _Makkabeus: is your alias tresh?
[11:23 PM] tresh: i no longer go by tresh
[11:24 PM] tresh: i need to change my alias
[11:24 PM] tresh: is that so difficult
[11:24 PM] _Makkabeus: in tf2? yes
[11:24 PM] _Makkabeus: talk to me after this season and we'll see what i can do

not happening um zzzz. ive been name locked since last season but i have to wait till next season!
38
#38
33 Frags +
Treshumlpst
Also either allow me to change my name or give me the fucking twitter checkmark man
Show Content

not happening um zzzz. ive been name locked since last season but i have to wait till next season!

ngl chief seems like u still go by tresh

[quote=Tresh][quote=umlpst]

Also either allow me to change my name or give me the fucking twitter checkmark man
[spoiler][img]https://i.ibb.co/PjGvN22/hahhaa.png[/img][/spoiler][/quote]


not happening um zzzz. ive been name locked since last season but i have to wait till next season![/quote]

ngl chief seems like u still go by tresh
39
#39
0 Frags +
umlpst

Not to speak for the 6's admins but when I asked them for approval for players on my team, they were a bit more lenient since we have some big noobs (me on demo) on our team. That way the overall strength of the team was still on par for div 1, since we have some strong players with a lot of experience, and some newer players. Just my 2 cents.

[quote=umlpst][/quote]
Not to speak for the 6's admins but when I asked them for approval for players on my team, they were a bit more lenient since we have some big noobs (me on demo) on our team. That way the overall strength of the team was still on par for div 1, since we have some strong players with a lot of experience, and some newer players. Just my 2 cents.
40
#40
4 Frags +
_MakkabeusOFFICIAL ADMIN RESPONSE

At 6 PM, Eastern Standard Time, I will be issuing my Official MustardOverlord Response to this post live on my twitch channel, http://twitch.tv/mustardoverlord .

We will set things straight.

[quote=_Makkabeus]OFFICIAL ADMIN RESPONSE[/quote]

At 6 PM, Eastern Standard Time, I will be issuing my Official MustardOverlord Response to this post live on my twitch channel, http://twitch.tv/mustardoverlord .

We will set things straight.
41
#41
-9 Frags +
ScreamIn Makka's defense, he's only been head 6s admin for 2 weeks (after Daf decided to quit right before the season started), was given almost no time to organize teams into divs, and could not extend registration in order for matches to not be played on Christmas. However, I won't excuse him from the fact that the upper divs are way too small (which I have literally been telling him for 3+ seasons) and the sandbagging rules are too harsh (I've never been a fan of RGL basing any decision off of scrim results). I'll also say that RGL really needs to have clear sandbagging guidelines and be a lot more realistic when it comes to these class restrictions. Lastly, as much as I like to make fun of Makkabeus for being a tyrannical dictator, he genuinely doesn't make all of the decisions by himself and looks for feedback from the other admins.

it's quite obvious someone who has been friends with said person for a long time will come to his defense, but you have to hold those running the divisions accountable or the league will come to stagnate and eventually die. there is such routine public outcry because RGL refuses to be entirely transparent and only speaks when threads such as these are made. either way, people like you are contributing to your favorite game slowly dying.

[quote=Scream]In Makka's defense, he's only been head 6s admin for 2 weeks (after Daf decided to quit right before the season started), was given almost no time to organize teams into divs, and could not extend registration in order for matches to not be played on Christmas. However, I won't excuse him from the fact that the upper divs are way too small (which I have literally been telling him for 3+ seasons) and the sandbagging rules are too harsh (I've never been a fan of RGL basing any decision off of scrim results). I'll also say that RGL really needs to have clear sandbagging guidelines and be a lot more realistic when it comes to these class restrictions. Lastly, as much as I like to make fun of Makkabeus for being a tyrannical dictator, he genuinely doesn't make all of the decisions by himself and looks for feedback from the other admins.[/quote]
it's quite obvious someone who has been friends with said person for a long time will come to his defense, but you have to hold those running the divisions accountable or the league will come to stagnate and eventually die. there is such routine public outcry because RGL refuses to be entirely transparent and only speaks when threads such as these are made. either way, people like you are contributing to your favorite game slowly dying.
42
#42
payload.tf
1 Frags +
mustardoverlord_MakkabeusOFFICIAL ADMIN RESPONSE
At 6 PM, Eastern Standard Time, I will be issuing my Official MustardOverlord Response to this post live on my twitch channel, http://twitch.tv/mustardoverlord .

We will set things straight.

Liar.

EDIT: I'm sorry for calling you a liar, he was just setting up a perfect streaming environment :)

[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=_Makkabeus]OFFICIAL ADMIN RESPONSE[/quote]

At 6 PM, Eastern Standard Time, I will be issuing my Official MustardOverlord Response to this post live on my twitch channel, http://twitch.tv/mustardoverlord .

We will set things straight.[/quote]
Liar.

EDIT: I'm sorry for calling you a liar, he was just setting up a perfect streaming environment :)
43
#43
2 Frags +
mustardoverlord_MakkabeusOFFICIAL ADMIN RESPONSE
At 6 PM, Eastern Standard Time, I will be issuing my Official MustardOverlord Response to this post live on my twitch channel, http://twitch.tv/mustardoverlord .

We will set things straight.

GOING LIVE NOW

[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=_Makkabeus]OFFICIAL ADMIN RESPONSE[/quote]

At 6 PM, Eastern Standard Time, I will be issuing my Official MustardOverlord Response to this post live on my twitch channel, http://twitch.tv/mustardoverlord .

We will set things straight.[/quote]

GOING LIVE NOW
44
#44
3 Frags +

sorry guys was a bit all over the place but I think I made my points!

sorry guys was a bit all over the place but I think I made my points!
45
#45
4 Frags +

VOD for ppl who missed it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/751989126

VOD for ppl who missed it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/751989126
46
#46
12 Frags +
lootalso not sure why this player is banned from soldier? https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198113969016&r=40 he hasn't played anything higher than ESEA-O

Being this player, I have the same question. I went 14-2 in Open 3 years ago and then played 8 matches with a 7-9 team in main last season after getting the itch to play again. If that is the criteria, then that is fine. I wasn't planning on playing soldier either way, so I don't really mind, but one of my teammates from that same team back then who also progressed and played in ESEA IM after is not banned on their main in RGL IM on my team this season, so I'm not sure if ESEA history matters much. We did get a response from an admin saying that "You went 7-9 in main (6-9 if you don't count our ffw), but you'll be much better this season, so you are not allowed to play that class in the division below."

I am on gollywobbler's (post from earlier) friend team and we only play our matches, so we got a lineup that works, but the one person that wanted to play their main was restricted because of a 7-9 record in main last season, since we will "be much better this season", despite us playing 2 scrims with our desired roster just to see if we could get 6 people together on classes they would be interested in playing, barely winning one against an IM team, and getting 5-0ed by a low main team. This same person is restricted on sniper because of their finish in highlander last season, but one of the snipers who finished ahead of them in their div is restricted on neither scout nor sniper. I, along with my whole team, are having fun and shooting the breeze about the good old days when playing, and just want to enjoy tf2 and talk with people that we haven't in a while. We cannot do that now because that restriction has caused all of us to switch around to classes that we didn't want to play, which is frustrating, and also didn't happen until we were already paid, so we don't really want to stop now either.

[quote=loot]
also not sure why this player is banned from soldier? https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198113969016&r=40 he hasn't played anything higher than ESEA-O
[/quote]
Being this player, I have the same question. I went 14-2 in Open 3 years ago and then played 8 matches with a 7-9 team in main last season after getting the itch to play again. If that is the criteria, then that is fine. I wasn't planning on playing soldier either way, so I don't really mind, but one of my teammates from that same team back then who also progressed and played in ESEA IM after is not banned on their main in RGL IM on my team this season, so I'm not sure if ESEA history matters much. We did get a response from an admin saying that "You went 7-9 in main (6-9 if you don't count our ffw), but you'll be much better this season, so you are not allowed to play that class in the division below."

I am on gollywobbler's (post from earlier) friend team and we only play our matches, so we got a lineup that works, but the one person that wanted to play their main was restricted because of a 7-9 record in main last season, since we will "be much better this season", despite us playing 2 scrims with our desired roster just to see if we could get 6 people together on classes they would be interested in playing, barely winning one against an IM team, and getting 5-0ed by a low main team. This same person is restricted on sniper because of their finish in highlander last season, but one of the snipers who finished ahead of them in their div is restricted on neither scout nor sniper. I, along with my whole team, are having fun and shooting the breeze about the good old days when playing, and just want to enjoy tf2 and talk with people that we haven't in a while. We cannot do that now because that restriction has caused all of us to switch around to classes that we didn't want to play, which is frustrating, and also didn't happen until we were already paid, so we don't really want to stop now either.
47
#47
2 Frags +

good points mr overlord

good points mr overlord
48
#48
6 Frags +

can an admin please change my rgl name to swagLORD. god bless

can an admin please change my rgl name to swagLORD. god bless
49
#49
-13 Frags +

hey just a reminder
if i was unbanned
b4nny would have gotten 3rd place tops

hey just a reminder
if i was unbanned
b4nny would have gotten 3rd place tops
50
#50
-13 Frags +

x

x
51
#51
5 Frags +
_KermitHonestly I feel that the ETF2L rule could be adopted and maybe changed a little but it's pretty fair, as long as it's applied properly.

"A team’s active line-up may only consist of a limited amount of higher skilled players that joined after the Provisional Tiers were published. A point system is used to determine this restriction. A player will be given one “point” for each tier of experience higher than the division of the team the player joins.

Example: In 6v6, a Division 2 player joining a Low team will count as two points, which puts the team above the one point limit. For Season 37 experience we will look at matches from Season 34 onwards."

This would mean that the team gets one warning for each match played with this player, and the third warning means permamently losing one league point, in ETF2L at least. This could be changed to be harsher to really put off sandbaggers. I personally played in div 1 a while ago as scout, then when I joined a mid team as soldier was told by admins I couldn't play scout, which was perfectly fair.

its generally a good rule, except a lot of people ignore "higher skilled players that joined after the Provisional Tiers were published". It means players are allowed to play whatever div they want on whatever class, as long as admin's can approve the team. Generally works out fine, but you get weird oversights of a player mainclassing 2/3 divs down, or carrying a team with calls/dm while off-classing much further down the divs.

Also opens the admin team up to a lot of criticism, with claims of favouritism with players being allowed more lenient restrictions if people think they're close to the admin team.

[quote=_Kermit]Honestly I feel that the ETF2L rule could be adopted and maybe changed a little but it's pretty fair, as long as it's applied properly.

"A team’s active line-up may only consist of a limited amount of higher skilled players that joined after the Provisional Tiers were published. A point system is used to determine this restriction. A player will be given one “point” for each tier of experience higher than the division of the team the player joins.

Example: In 6v6, a Division 2 player joining a Low team will count as two points, which puts the team above the one point limit. For Season 37 experience we will look at matches from Season 34 onwards."

This would mean that the team gets one warning for each match played with this player, and the third warning means permamently losing one league point, in ETF2L at least. This could be changed to be harsher to really put off sandbaggers. I personally played in div 1 a while ago as scout, then when I joined a mid team as soldier was told by admins I couldn't play scout, which was perfectly fair.[/quote]

its generally a good rule, except a lot of people ignore "[b]higher skilled players that joined after the Provisional Tiers were published[/b]". It means players are allowed to play whatever div they want on whatever class, as long as admin's can approve the team. Generally works out fine, but you get weird oversights of a player mainclassing 2/3 divs down, or carrying a team with calls/dm while off-classing much further down the divs.

Also opens the admin team up to a lot of criticism, with claims of favouritism with players being allowed more lenient restrictions if people think they're close to the admin team.
52
#52
-5 Frags +
Jugggasking why hes banned

I won't say that this is totally a feasible ban and its been a while since you've played but you also played season 25 for the preseason/first half for power surge. That team ended the season 7th in open when open and IM merged, and you were a good player playing with other solid advanced/ESEA-IM players shylo, unicorn wizard, syath. My team scrimmed you quite a bit and I personally had the opinion that you were at least solid mid-ESEA-IM if not higher.

Again you guys haven't played in a while and you are match only and from the scrims you described I see no reason to ban you from your classes, that being said, I could see why an admin who doesn't know about you could've checked your history and been like, "this isn't a main level player."

[quote=Juggg]asking why hes banned[/quote]

I won't say that this is totally a feasible ban and its been a while since you've played but you also played season 25 for the preseason/first half for power surge. That team ended the season 7th in open when open and IM merged, and you were a good player playing with other solid advanced/ESEA-IM players shylo, unicorn wizard, syath. My team scrimmed you quite a bit and I personally had the opinion that you were at least solid mid-ESEA-IM if not higher.

Again you guys haven't played in a while and you are match only and from the scrims you described I see no reason to ban you from your classes, that being said, I could see why an admin who doesn't know about you could've checked your history and been like, "this isn't a main level player."
53
#53
5 Frags +
CAP_CREATURE stuff

Jugg’s class restrictions may or may not be valid, he’s a good soldier. The issue is our scout TheS4rr joined our team solely to play scout but his 7-9 record in main earned him a scout class restriction. It doesn’t help that the restriction came so close to the payment deadline. Moving up to main was an option, but playing our old mains is not something we’re super interested in.

[quote=CAP_CREATURE] stuff [/quote]

Jugg’s class restrictions may or may not be valid, he’s a good soldier. The issue is our scout TheS4rr joined our team solely to play scout but his 7-9 record in main earned him a scout class restriction. It doesn’t help that the restriction came so close to the payment deadline. Moving up to main was an option, but playing our old mains is not something we’re super interested in.
54
#54
0 Frags +
gollywobbler1CAP_CREATURE stuff
Jugg’s class restrictions may or may not be valid, he’s a good soldier. The issue is our scout TheS4rr joined our team solely to play scout but his 7-9 record in main earned him a scout class restriction. It doesn’t help that the restriction came so close to the payment deadline. Moving up to main was an option, but playing our old mains is not something we’re super interested in.

To be fair; I remeber playing against s4rr in s29 open and he was definitely a solid player mechanically, I think his team finished top 8 or top 4. Definitely reasonable to restrict him in IM which is supposed to be the low open equivalent

[quote=gollywobbler1][quote=CAP_CREATURE] stuff [/quote]

Jugg’s class restrictions may or may not be valid, he’s a good soldier. The issue is our scout TheS4rr joined our team solely to play scout but his 7-9 record in main earned him a scout class restriction. It doesn’t help that the restriction came so close to the payment deadline. Moving up to main was an option, but playing our old mains is not something we’re super interested in.[/quote]
To be fair; I remeber playing against s4rr in s29 open and he was definitely a solid player mechanically, I think his team finished top 8 or top 4. Definitely reasonable to restrict him in IM which is supposed to be the low open equivalent
55
#55
3 Frags +

How can I find out what classes I'm allowed to play in lower divs, or is the "judgement" only available in the last days of signing up leaving me with no choice but to either play med or invite?

How can I find out what classes I'm allowed to play in lower divs, or is the "judgement" only available in the last days of signing up leaving me with no choice but to either play med or invite?
56
#56
-4 Frags +

You could message an admin on steam, thats what I did when the goblin zone guys were planning on offclassing in d2

You could message an admin on steam, thats what I did when the goblin zone guys were planning on offclassing in d2
57
#57
payload.tf
13 Frags +
NathanYou could message an admin on steam, thats what I did when the goblin zone guys were planning on offclassing in d2

Just hope their decision isn't changed after 24 hours of you asking.

[quote=Nathan]You could message an admin on steam, thats what I did when the goblin zone guys were planning on offclassing in d2[/quote]
Just hope their decision isn't changed after 24 hours of you asking.
58
#58
15 Frags +

yeah protip: never ask 'the admins', ask the head admin or it will probably be completely wrong

yeah protip: never ask 'the admins', ask the head admin or it will probably be completely wrong
59
#59
Spaceship Servers
-2 Frags +

rgl is not only externally inconsistent, they're internally so as well. when i was a part of the organization, it was one of the least organized staff teams i've ever worked with, with decisions often being made completely at the whim of whichever person decided to handle it, which frequently was someone who wasn't even technically in charge of that division or format, and sigafoo & exa would frequently override those decisions with very little reason given.

now granted, that was a while ago, but it genuinely does not seem like much has changed lol

rgl is not only externally inconsistent, they're internally so as well. when i was a part of the organization, it was one of the least organized staff teams i've ever worked with, with decisions often being made completely at the whim of whichever person decided to handle it, which frequently was someone who wasn't even technically in charge of that division or format, and sigafoo & exa would frequently override those decisions with very little reason given.

now granted, that was a while ago, but it genuinely does not seem like much has changed lol
60
#60
6 Frags +
stephrgl is not only externally inconsistent, they're internally so as well. when i was a part of the organization, it was one of the least organized staff teams i've ever worked with, with decisions often being made completely at the whim of whichever person decided to handle it, which frequently was someone who wasn't even technically in charge of that division or format, and sigafoo & exa would frequently override those decisions with very little reason given.

now granted, that was a while ago, but it genuinely does not seem like much has changed lol

they have 100+ ppl in their staff discord as if they don't need more than like 10 ppl rofl

[quote=steph]rgl is not only externally inconsistent, they're internally so as well. when i was a part of the organization, it was one of the least organized staff teams i've ever worked with, with decisions often being made completely at the whim of whichever person decided to handle it, which frequently was someone who wasn't even technically in charge of that division or format, and sigafoo & exa would frequently override those decisions with very little reason given.

now granted, that was a while ago, but it genuinely does not seem like much has changed lol[/quote]
they have 100+ ppl in their staff discord as if they don't need more than like 10 ppl rofl
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