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ETF2L S37 plugins
31
#31
8 Frags +
WackyfireballWhipProjectiles collide with teammates which can be super annoying
Gunboats don't apply damage reduction on self damage while damaging an enemy
- plugins fix both
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.

While that may be true, soldier gets super fucked by scout at close range because scattergun does big damage, which is fair. The scout though, can also just hold w and any damage the soldier does to the scout at close range gets basically reflected back at him. Effectively allowing a scout to 1-shot a soldier which is super bullshit. This serves as a nice buff to soldier while not requiring possible actual meta shifts, like the med move speed.

[quote=Wackyfireball][quote=Whip]
Projectiles collide with teammates which can be super annoying
Gunboats don't apply damage reduction on self damage while damaging an enemy
- plugins fix both
[/quote]
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.[/quote]

While that may be true, soldier gets super fucked by scout at close range because scattergun does big damage, which is fair. The scout though, can also just hold w and any damage the soldier does to the scout at close range gets basically reflected back at him. Effectively allowing a scout to 1-shot a soldier which is super bullshit. This serves as a nice buff to soldier while not requiring possible actual meta shifts, like the med move speed.
32
#32
-9 Frags +

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
33
#33
-5 Frags +
FactsMachineYeah, let's just ban crossbow, make it so scouts can't walk meds out and force medic players to uninstall in the name of making the game more like the glory days when soldier was good :)

shut up

[quote=FactsMachine]Yeah, let's just ban crossbow, make it so scouts can't walk meds out and force medic players to uninstall in the name of making the game more like the glory days when soldier was good :)[/quote]
shut up
34
#34
27 Frags +
WackyfireballHaven't they both been in the game since the beginning?

That's not a particularly good reason against trying out changes.

WackyfireballAs far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.

The wiki explains the behaviour, the implementation rather than the intent of the feature, the latter seemed to be "gunboats only apply for rocket jumps", that is quite different. I implemented the change because I feel that situations such as the one described by Kermit feel incredibly absurd - the behaviour is hard to expect, to predict.
I would prefer to have Soldier's base self-damage resistance always apply (as opposed to only mid-air) rather than this, but I've not had the time to develop the change.

Wackyfireball And doesn't letting projectiles go through allies reduce part of positioning and communication.

I've never understood the point about positioning when it comes to this change, I just cannot envision a situation in which this can be abused and not be reproduced without the plugin. This testing season could show me otherwise. The point about communication makes even less sense, you shoot a rocket, your scout who faces the other way runs into it, you're just never going to be able to prevent that through comms, that seems silly.

[quote=Wackyfireball]Haven't they both been in the game since the beginning?[/quote]
That's not a particularly good reason against trying out changes.

[quote=Wackyfireball]
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.[/quote]
The wiki explains the behaviour, the implementation rather than the intent of the feature, the latter seemed to be "gunboats only apply for rocket jumps", that is quite different. I implemented the change because I feel that situations such as the one described by Kermit feel incredibly absurd - the behaviour is hard to expect, to predict.
I would prefer to have Soldier's base self-damage resistance always apply (as opposed to only mid-air) rather than this, but I've not had the time to develop the change.

[quote=Wackyfireball] And doesn't letting projectiles go through allies reduce part of positioning and communication.[/quote]
I've never understood the point about positioning when it comes to this change, I just cannot envision a situation in which this can be abused and not be reproduced without the plugin. This testing season could show me otherwise. The point about communication makes even less sense, you shoot a rocket, your scout who faces the other way runs into it, you're just never going to be able to prevent that through comms, that seems silly.
35
#35
23 Frags +

gonna enjoy to play soldier again

gonna enjoy to play soldier again
36
#36
-4 Frags +

OLD META IS BACK YOU ZOOMERS!!!

OLD META IS BACK YOU ZOOMERS!!!
37
#37
28 Frags +
LUKASTANK@collaide please dont ruin every stickytrap on the map like someone did on badlands remake ty

for each patched stickytrap a new traffic cone should be added somewhere on the map.
It's only fair

[quote=LUKASTANK]@collaide please dont ruin every stickytrap on the map like someone did on badlands remake ty[/quote]
for each patched stickytrap a new traffic cone should be added somewhere on the map.
It's only fair
38
#38
2 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/dFJBW1y.png

https://i.imgur.com/dFJBW1y.png
39
#39
-5 Frags +

Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage, seems kinda ridiculous imho. Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else, so why should the gunboats do that? I get that the point is to nerf scouts but the med speed and winger jump nerfs already do that, and the gunbats change is going to make soldier ridiculous. At that point, if that's considered "balanced" why not make it so demo gets the explosive jump resistance applied when piping people at close range?

Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage, seems kinda ridiculous imho. Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else, so why should the gunboats do that? I get that the point is to nerf scouts but the med speed and winger jump nerfs already do that, and the gunbats change is going to make soldier ridiculous. At that point, if that's considered "balanced" why not make it so demo gets the explosive jump resistance applied when piping people at close range?
40
#40
10 Frags +
SylentShoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage

That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.

SylentEven the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else

That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.

[quote=Sylent]Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage[/quote]
That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.

[quote=Sylent]Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else[/quote]
That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.
41
#41
3 Frags +
Sylent

the point of the gunboats change isnt to nerf scout its to not take 60 damage for no reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpbKBQ8MlM&ab_channel=BigBoon

imagine rocket jumping, expecting to take 20 damage, and then someone happens to be at the very edge of your explosion radius and then you take 60 damage instead. its fucking stupid.

edit:

in the video i provided, Um isnt jumping, he's just standing on the ground and placing the rocket under him which is why hes taking more like 85 damage for each rocket. this is pretty unrealistic which is why i estimate about 60 damage above

[quote=Sylent][/quote]
the point of the gunboats change isnt to nerf scout its to not take 60 damage for no reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpbKBQ8MlM&ab_channel=BigBoon

imagine rocket jumping, expecting to take 20 damage, and then someone happens to be at the very edge of your explosion radius and then you take 60 damage instead. its fucking stupid.

edit:

in the video i provided, Um isnt jumping, he's just standing on the ground and placing the rocket under him which is why hes taking more like 85 damage for each rocket. this is pretty unrealistic which is why i estimate about 60 damage above
42
#42
-9 Frags +
twiikuuSylentShoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damageThat's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.

Wouldnt it still be ~18 if you jump and shoot?

twiikuuSylentEven the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone elseThat's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.

"To assist with rocket jumps, the Soldier has a 40% damage resistance against any rocket he fires that hurts him while he is in the air. This resistance will take effect even if an enemy was hit with the same rocket used to rocket jump, unlike the Gunboats"

Nvm, you're right

Original point still stands though, it's honestly a silly change

[quote=twiikuu][quote=Sylent]Shoot people in the face at point blank and only take 18 self damage[/quote]
That's if you're in the air, if not, that's closer to 31 damage.[/quote]

Wouldnt it still be ~18 if you jump and shoot?

[quote=twiikuu][quote=Sylent]Even the default rocket jump self damage resist doesn't apply when damaging someone else[/quote]
That's not a condition which affects Soldier's base self-damage resistance, the only factor is whether you're in the air or not.[/quote]

"To assist with rocket jumps, the Soldier has a 40% damage resistance against any rocket he fires that hurts him while he is in the air. This resistance will take effect even if an enemy was hit with the same rocket used to rocket jump, unlike the Gunboats"

Nvm, you're right

Original point still stands though, it's honestly a silly change
43
#43
17 Frags +

how will scouts recover from not having 40% heals

how will scouts recover from not having 40% heals
44
#44
22 Frags +

People freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay

People freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay
45
#45
9 Frags +
TobPeople freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay

DONT BELIEVE SCOUT PROPAGANDA, RISE UP PROJECTILE PLAYERS, TIME FOR THE REVOLUTION

[quote=Tob]People freaking out because they think soldier just stopped being the weakest 6s class
Fear not
Soldiers will still get their shit pushed in by scouts
It is going to be okay[/quote]
DONT BELIEVE SCOUT PROPAGANDA, RISE UP PROJECTILE PLAYERS, TIME FOR THE REVOLUTION
46
#46
21 Frags +

tbh im glad theyre just throwing it in a season, i dont think any relevant feedback has ever come from mix teams playing like 3 maps in preseason cups and not particularly trying. if it turns out to be worse at least we will know and can go straight back next season :)

tbh im glad theyre just throwing it in a season, i dont think any relevant feedback has ever come from mix teams playing like 3 maps in preseason cups and not particularly trying. if it turns out to be worse at least we will know and can go straight back next season :)
47
#47
9 Frags +

I really like the idea of using a season as a testing ground of some of these things. It would be good to be able to test some of these in isolation though as I think it might be hard to separate the effects of each change. Don't just judge this on whether all of these plugins together make the game better or worse.

I really like the idea of using a season as a testing ground of some of these things. It would be good to be able to test some of these in isolation though as I think it might be hard to separate the effects of each change. Don't just judge this on whether all of these plugins together make the game better or worse.
48
#48
1 Frags +

its good to use the fall time to have tests may it be no season and cups or a "test" season.
I would like to see the iron bomber hitbox fix being tested at some point before the end of the year too

remember people freaked out before gunboats were introduced too and it turned out fine.

props to plugin devs and admins for this one

its good to use the fall time to have tests may it be no season and cups or a "test" season.
I would like to see the iron bomber hitbox fix being tested at some point before the end of the year too

remember people freaked out before gunboats were introduced too and it turned out fine.

props to plugin devs and admins for this one
49
#49
7 Frags +

my thoughts on the plugin situation

projectiles ignoring teammates is good, it was an unnecessary limitation for a competitive game wherein ammo and spent shots can be so crucial

i really dont understand the pipe spin change, i dont really see what it fixes or who it was meant to appease. like who was asking for this?

the gunboats one was overall a good change, i think taking ~75 self damage for hitting the highest dealing damage, so supposedly best, rocket you could hit is crazy punishing and has allowed alot of scouts to win what would otherwise be unfavourable 1v1s in tight chokes where a soldier should have the advantage. at the same time though i understand the argument that there has to be some sort of tradeoff for dealing face directs and completely removing self damage to being like 11-18 might be a bit too lenient, though as twiikuu points out its more like 30 which i think is reasonable

the winger change is good, that gun is insane so preventing script abuse making it even stronger is a good thing

now as for the removal of medic attach speed: i really think this is an unhealthy and unwarranted plugin. i think people are failing to realise that the way it is now allows for teams to be so much more aggressive and makes the game so much more fun and deep, if the plugin is added then medics will be forced to play way more passive and that'll bring the team back with them. like in situations where you have uber disad, the current medic speed allows teams to be forward despite the ubers which allows for so much interesting pressure and teamplay rewarding teams' coordination and ability to punish mistakes. if the heals cant move as quick then the team is forced to play way more passively alongside him meaning disad situations just boil down to more spam and individual sac attempts. this change also hurts aggression too, the medic is just unable to follow teammates very far meaning players have to be way more restricted in space they take or targets they pick and diminishes a teams ability to punish people. slowing down the meta that we’ve been happy playing for 5 years and limiting our options for plays seems so pointless

ive also seen people claiming that the plugin makes chasing “possible” but chasing is totally viable as it is. like sure, the medic survives alot of situations but the medic kill isnt all you gain from chasing, you can kill stragglers along the way and it forces the team being chased to concede SO much space, its the reason you see froyo chase into last off a midfight and be so successful with it. i believe people, especially in europe, need to stop thinking so one-dimensionally about medic picks/uber advantages, all picks are valuable and you definitely can chase and will gain value from it in the games current state. you dont need uber advantage for a situation to be good for you, just properly capitalise on space and picks - if youre upset that a team has uber after you kill all of them then take that space you earnt and use it to force them

furthermore wouldnt it just be lame if you lost a round for every fight you lost because your medic died and couldnt leave? obviously its not true to that extent because the enemy team’s medic would be slower too, but id argue that medics staying alive more is better for the game. if we were to add this plugin then teams would be even more scared than they are now to commit to fights because they could lose their heals and its already a problem enough that teams, again, especially european, just turtle with risk-free engineer & sniper setups or opt for repeated single sacs. i think people are very uncreative nowadays and fail to take advantage of the aggression that the medic speed offers both offensively and defensively. its not like a situation is unwinnable because one side has uber. the fix for our slowness is NOT to make it even harder and riskier for teams to play aggressive

alot of people in favour of the plugin seem to label it as a scout nerfer or something to make soldier less oppressed. its not like scouts wont be 185 in fights now. this is probably a very unpopular opinion but i think soldier is completely fine and especially moreso with the gunboats plugin. i think people’s perception of “Scout Class” is blown so much out of proportion and alot of the problem comes from people genuinely not being good enough at soldier. the class is difficult yes, but the sheer amount of high level soldiers that i see play so incredibly one-dimensionally is astounding. the class can offer so much more than bombing and landing on the floor if you play the class to its strengths. its not like scout isnt strong, the class can float and has incredibly high dps but the situations you’re punished by the full force of that as a soldier can be mitigated with smarter positioning, decision making and rockets and most importantly playing with your team. if soldier was as useless/unfun as some people make out then no one would play it and especially not with the impact that some individuals do have on it

to conclude, i think its a pretty misguided decision by etf2l in the first place to test it in a season when just one season ago the majority voted against that very thing. that being said a large amount of players did vote yes so more rigorous testing is obviously required, though i think theyve done a poor job representing the majority and shouldve made better use of gaps in the schedule to arrange appropriate testing instead of making 55% of season 37s participants not want to play. etf2l’s handling of this aside, i really dont think this plugin should be implemented. it seems like people want to bring back the old meta as if it was better and not just different, but if we think rationally about what we gain versus what we lose i really think staying in our current situation is the better option. not only what ive mentioned before but also we’ll risk further segmenting our playerbase by continent and it could even harm prospects of future internationals. i do think its a valid criticism to say that medics have an easier time escaping resulting in them dying less but i think its totally a worthy tradeoff for the depth in aggression and fun that the medic attach speed adds to the game

my thoughts on the plugin situation

projectiles ignoring teammates is good, it was an unnecessary limitation for a competitive game wherein ammo and spent shots can be so crucial

i really dont understand the pipe spin change, i dont really see what it fixes or who it was meant to appease. like who was asking for this?

the gunboats one was overall a good change, i think taking ~75 self damage for hitting the highest dealing damage, so supposedly best, rocket you could hit is crazy punishing and has allowed alot of scouts to win what would otherwise be unfavourable 1v1s in tight chokes where a soldier should have the advantage. at the same time though i understand the argument that there has to be some sort of tradeoff for dealing face directs and completely removing self damage to being like 11-18 might be a bit too lenient, though as twiikuu points out its more like 30 which i think is reasonable

the winger change is good, that gun is insane so preventing script abuse making it even stronger is a good thing

now as for the removal of medic attach speed: i really think this is an unhealthy and unwarranted plugin. i think people are failing to realise that the way it is now allows for teams to be so much more aggressive and makes the game so much more fun and deep, if the plugin is added then medics will be forced to play way more passive and that'll bring the team back with them. like in situations where you have uber disad, the current medic speed allows teams to be forward despite the ubers which allows for so much interesting pressure and teamplay rewarding teams' coordination and ability to punish mistakes. if the heals cant move as quick then the team is forced to play way more passively alongside him meaning disad situations just boil down to more spam and individual sac attempts. this change also hurts aggression too, the medic is just unable to follow teammates very far meaning players have to be way more restricted in space they take or targets they pick and diminishes a teams ability to punish people. slowing down the meta that we’ve been happy playing for 5 years and limiting our options for plays seems so pointless

ive also seen people claiming that the plugin makes chasing “possible” but chasing is totally viable as it is. like sure, the medic survives alot of situations but the medic kill isnt all you gain from chasing, you can kill stragglers along the way and it forces the team being chased to concede SO much space, its the reason you see froyo chase into last off a midfight and be so successful with it. i believe people, especially in europe, need to stop thinking so one-dimensionally about medic picks/uber advantages, all picks are valuable and you definitely can chase and will gain value from it in the games current state. you dont need uber advantage for a situation to be good for you, just properly capitalise on space and picks - if youre upset that a team has uber after you kill all of them then take that space you earnt and use it to force them

furthermore wouldnt it just be lame if you lost a round for every fight you lost because your medic died and couldnt leave? obviously its not true to that extent because the enemy team’s medic would be slower too, but id argue that medics staying alive more is better for the game. if we were to add this plugin then teams would be even more scared than they are now to commit to fights because they could lose their heals and its already a problem enough that teams, again, especially european, just turtle with risk-free engineer & sniper setups or opt for repeated single sacs. i think people are very uncreative nowadays and fail to take advantage of the aggression that the medic speed offers both offensively and defensively. its not like a situation is unwinnable because one side has uber. the fix for our slowness is NOT to make it even harder and riskier for teams to play aggressive

alot of people in favour of the plugin seem to label it as a scout nerfer or something to make soldier less oppressed. its not like scouts wont be 185 in fights now. this is probably a very unpopular opinion but i think soldier is completely fine and especially moreso with the gunboats plugin. i think people’s perception of “Scout Class” is blown so much out of proportion and alot of the problem comes from people genuinely not being good enough at soldier. the class is difficult yes, but the sheer amount of high level soldiers that i see play so incredibly one-dimensionally is astounding. the class can offer so much more than bombing and landing on the floor if you play the class to its strengths. its not like scout isnt strong, the class can float and has incredibly high dps but the situations you’re punished by the full force of that as a soldier can be mitigated with smarter positioning, decision making and rockets and most importantly playing with your team. if soldier was as useless/unfun as some people make out then no one would play it and especially not with the impact that some individuals do have on it

to conclude, i think its a pretty misguided decision by etf2l in the first place to test it in a season when just one season ago the majority voted against that very thing. that being said a large amount of players did vote yes so more rigorous testing is obviously required, though i think theyve done a poor job representing the majority and shouldve made better use of gaps in the schedule to arrange appropriate testing instead of making 55% of season 37s participants not want to play. etf2l’s handling of this aside, i really dont think this plugin should be implemented. it seems like people want to bring back the old meta as if it was better and not just different, but if we think rationally about what we gain versus what we lose i really think staying in our current situation is the better option. not only what ive mentioned before but also we’ll risk further segmenting our playerbase by continent and it could even harm prospects of future internationals. i do think its a valid criticism to say that medics have an easier time escaping resulting in them dying less but i think its totally a worthy tradeoff for the depth in aggression and fun that the medic attach speed adds to the game
50
#50
-11 Frags +

hello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.

hello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.
51
#51
4 Frags +
Hedgehello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.

demo is designed to be weak in close quarters. soldier already won soldier v demo when he got close up unless the demo used the weapon where the pipes are the size of the skybox itself.

[quote=Hedge]hello. If you are going to make soldier take less self damage please make demo take less pipe self damage. Otherwise you have increased the power of soldier in the soldier v demo match up.[/quote]
demo is designed to be weak in close quarters. soldier already won soldier v demo when he got close up unless the demo used the weapon where the pipes are the size of the skybox itself.
52
#52
-22 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/voYXyDO.jpg

[img]https://i.imgur.com/voYXyDO.jpg[/img]
53
#53
1 Frags +

Will be intresting to see how the meta shifts from these changes. Soldiers obviously gaining some power but more importantely medic positioning becoming even more important

Will be intresting to see how the meta shifts from these changes. Soldiers obviously gaining some power but more importantely medic positioning becoming even more important
54
#54
31 Frags +
Eemeshttps://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

What's the point of having a vote if you're not going to abide by its outcome? Can someone from ETF2L even explain the logic behind the decision to implement the scout speed change based on this poll, which shows a majority of votes against the plugin?

youve got to remember that theres people like ace voting

[quote=Eemes]https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

What's the point of having a vote if you're not going to abide by its outcome? Can someone from ETF2L even explain the logic behind the decision to implement the scout speed change based on this poll, which shows a majority of votes [i]against[/i] the plugin?[/quote]
youve got to remember that theres people like ace voting
55
#55
20 Frags +
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkMedic attach speed stuff

I think your argument centering around medic attach speed making the game more aggressive doesn't quite take into account a few things. The way attach speed currently works incentivizes something I call "half committing" where meds and scouts tend to play a lot safer in fights than they would pre attach speed which often ends up hurting coordinated aggression (this is particularly noticable on mids like process). This is because they know that with this positioning they have a guarantee of getting out and preserving uber if the fight goes poorly. I think this is more what fucks soldier in the current meta than "medics heal scouts more", it's just that it provides more of an incentive for their team to bait them and changes their class role to be more throwaway.

If you watch older TF2, you'll notice meds will bail on mid far earlier than they would now if they smell things going badly. You need to do this to have a guarantee of getting out when you don't have attach speed. You might think that this would make the game far more passive, but the thing is that having to bail this early means that you're almost certainly baiting your team for a loss, so it has much larger consequences. Also, you'd see meds and scouts commit a lot more in fights because there's no guarantee they're getting out otherwise, so it's optimal to get your team as healthy as possible. Basically, if you can't guarantee your medic living it's less optimal to play around doing so.

sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkslowing down the meta that we’ve been happy playing for 5 years and limiting our options for plays seems so pointless

I'd also just like to point out that I've not been happy playing the meta for almost exactly 5 years and that the 2015 meta was probably when TF2 felt the most fun both to watch and play. It's not just playing soldier either, I think scout and medic became far less fun after the change compared to soldier which only became moderately less fun. I will say that we're definitely in a better place than we were a couple of years after the change, but I still think what we're playing currently needs shaking up badly.

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]
Medic attach speed stuff
[/quote]

I think your argument centering around medic attach speed making the game more aggressive doesn't quite take into account a few things. The way attach speed currently works incentivizes something I call "half committing" where meds and scouts tend to play a lot safer in fights than they would pre attach speed which often ends up hurting coordinated aggression (this is particularly noticable on mids like process). This is because they know that with this positioning they have a guarantee of getting out and preserving uber if the fight goes poorly. I think this is more what fucks soldier in the current meta than "medics heal scouts more", it's just that it provides more of an incentive for their team to bait them and changes their class role to be more throwaway.

If you watch older TF2, you'll notice meds will bail on mid far earlier than they would now if they smell things going badly. You need to do this to have a guarantee of getting out when you don't have attach speed. You might think that this would make the game far more passive, but the thing is that having to bail this early means that you're almost certainly baiting your team for a loss, so it has much larger consequences. Also, you'd see meds and scouts commit a lot more in fights because there's no guarantee they're getting out otherwise, so it's optimal to get your team as healthy as possible. Basically, if you can't guarantee your medic living it's less optimal to play around doing so.

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]slowing down the meta that we’ve been happy playing for 5 years and limiting our options for plays seems so pointless
[/quote]

I'd also just like to point out that I've not been happy playing the meta for almost exactly 5 years and that the 2015 meta was probably when TF2 felt the most fun both to watch and play. It's not just playing soldier either, I think scout and medic became far less fun after the change compared to soldier which only became moderately less fun. I will say that we're definitely in a better place than we were a couple of years after the change, but I still think what we're playing currently needs shaking up badly.
56
#56
-5 Frags +

I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.

I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.
57
#57
2 Frags +
EemesI'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/001/007/WAT.jpg

[quote=Eemes]I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.[/quote]
[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/001/007/WAT.jpg[/img]
58
#58
2 Frags +
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfki really dont understand the pipe spin change, i dont really see what it fixes or who it was meant to appease. like who was asking for this?

I think it's nice!

It means demomen can more accurately line up roller spam kinda like cs:go smoke. its probably not gonna be the most useful thing ever but it adds a layer of skill [correct me if im wrong]

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]i really dont understand the pipe spin change, i dont really see what it fixes or who it was meant to appease. like who was asking for this?[/quote]

I think it's nice!

It means demomen can more accurately line up roller spam kinda like cs:go smoke. its probably not gonna be the most useful thing ever but it adds a layer of skill [i][correct me if im wrong][/i]
59
#59
6 Frags +

For me it just dumps down medic positioning to: Stay forback no matter what

I really liked to do all kind of trying to overextend with scout speed just to bait someone into chasing me, which now will not be possible.

Positionning will not be more Important and harder, it will just become more boring repetitive and so, less fun.

Just pointing out that in ETF2L, medics in prem shifts all season( for s36 we had 12 differents medics playing the season), meanwhile on the other classes, this is not the case.

For me it just dumps down medic positioning to: Stay forback no matter what

I really liked to do all kind of trying to overextend with scout speed just to bait someone into chasing me, which now will not be possible.

Positionning will not be more Important and harder, it will just become more boring repetitive and so, less fun.

Just pointing out that in ETF2L, medics in prem shifts all season( for s36 we had 12 differents medics playing the season), meanwhile on the other classes, this is not the case.
60
#60
4 Frags +
EemesI'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.

"I don't like that proposal, better not vote!"

???

[quote=Eemes]I'm sure you'll be able to get that consent bar above 50% when everyone that thinks the change is dogshit has upped and left the scene because they haven't been listened to.[/quote]

"I don't like that proposal, better not vote!"

???
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