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ETF2L S37 plugins
61
#61
40 Frags +

I'm glad these changes are being made in a proper season setting. If the changes prove to be awful to play with then I look forward to being wronged and I have no problem admitting that it wasn't a good move.
Regardless we are at the point where we should try and experiment, we've had worse shit in ETF2L seasons before that didn't come down to a vote but just the admins decision. Was it shit? Yes. But it's only one season and these changes deserve to be given a long and thorough test as it could be a benefit towards a more entertaining playstyle of TF2.

The game is at the point now where we shouldn't give a shit on trying to attract new players, we've done that shit for years and it's done fuck all. What's important now is that we look for ways to make the current TF2 enjoyable to play and watch. There's also nothing wrong with just having a shakeup or a refresh of the meta every now and then. We have the abilitity to do just that and we should be more welcoming with experimental changes.

Having said all this, adding the gunboats always applies along with the med movespeed changes seems a bit excessive. I feel that both changes are quite significant as we are already going to make the medic role more punishing and having soldiers effectively more tanky in bombs feels like a bit of a double whammy.

I'm glad these changes are being made in a proper season setting. If the changes prove to be awful to play with then I look forward to being wronged and I have no problem admitting that it wasn't a good move.
Regardless we are at the point where we should try and experiment, we've had worse shit in ETF2L seasons before that didn't come down to a vote but just the admins decision. Was it shit? Yes. But it's only one season and these changes deserve to be given a long and thorough test as it could be a benefit towards a more entertaining playstyle of TF2.

The game is at the point now where we shouldn't give a shit on trying to attract new players, we've done that shit for years and it's done fuck all. What's important now is that we look for ways to make the current TF2 enjoyable to play and watch. There's also nothing wrong with just having a shakeup or a refresh of the meta every now and then. We have the abilitity to do just that and we should be more welcoming with experimental changes.

Having said all this, adding the gunboats always applies along with the med movespeed changes seems a bit excessive. I feel that both changes are quite significant as we are already going to make the medic role more punishing and having soldiers effectively more tanky in bombs feels like a bit of a double whammy.
62
#62
-1 Frags +

#55 So why is half committing bad? Theres a stark difference between fighting gradually/reactive and baiting. If a team just sits and watches their soldiers bomb without taking any risk to support them then that team is just factually bad and they’ll never get anything done. If you’re looking to bait your team then you’re playing the game wrong. A soldier being baited by his awful team is not representative of the meta being stale, people just need to get better at taking advantage of medic attach speed to actually play together. A team’s ability to prod and fight for space with coordinated aggression is what separates a real team from every other shit pug team that pops up every season - anyone has the capability to play all-in, the former actually requires coordination. Anyway I don’t understand why people think medics keeping uber after losing a fight is a bad thing? Would you prefer for teams to get fully punished for every fight they take and mistake they make? Surely its way more interesting for the game if a team loses a fight and has a chance to hold the next point back, its not as if running away and conceding half the map isnt a punishment within itself or that the 1 scout and 1 medic are invulnerable if you chase them - a good enough team can catch them or apply so much pressure for them surviving. Its also not as if the running team doesn’t have any options either, they can take risks like playing with the scouts to kill bombers or wrap to block mid for example. It really feels like the reasoning behind this plugin is just that players want everything for free. Why do you want to win an entire round off the back of one fight? Why do you want every solo soldier bomb to be effective without support? This is a team game. You have to earn success in this game and that includes learning how to play together and making use of the tools that have been a staple feature for five years, not reverting the meta back to something more simple because individuals have failed to adapt.

#55 So why is half committing bad? Theres a stark difference between fighting gradually/reactive and baiting. If a team just sits and watches their soldiers bomb without taking any risk to support them then that team is just factually bad and they’ll never get anything done. If you’re looking to bait your team then you’re playing the game wrong. A soldier being baited by his awful team is not representative of the meta being stale, people just need to get better at taking advantage of medic attach speed to actually play together. A team’s ability to prod and fight for space with coordinated aggression is what separates a real team from every other shit pug team that pops up every season - anyone has the capability to play all-in, the former actually requires coordination. Anyway I don’t understand why people think medics keeping uber after losing a fight is a bad thing? Would you prefer for teams to get fully punished for every fight they take and mistake they make? Surely its way more interesting for the game if a team loses a fight and has a chance to hold the next point back, its not as if running away and conceding half the map isnt a punishment within itself or that the 1 scout and 1 medic are invulnerable if you chase them - a good enough team can catch them or apply so much pressure for them surviving. Its also not as if the running team doesn’t have any options either, they can take risks like playing with the scouts to kill bombers or wrap to block mid for example. It really feels like the reasoning behind this plugin is just that players want everything for free. Why do you want to win an entire round off the back of one fight? Why do you want every solo soldier bomb to be effective without support? This is a team game. You have to earn success in this game and that includes learning how to play together and making use of the tools that have been a staple feature for five years, not reverting the meta back to something more simple because individuals have failed to adapt.
63
#63
4 Frags +
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk#55 So why is half committing bad?

With the ability for one team to be able to get out really quickly, small advantages apply more pressure but only for a small time because of a teams ability to melt away and blob. I think this generally leads to less time spent actually fighting, longer stalemates and more time spent on last which imo are the least interesting parts of the game. The aggression that you gain from the medic being able to move faster with his team I don't think enables you to do more with aggression unless you have significant player or uber ad most of the time. In an even fight I think the faster the combo moves it's going to make the aggressors lose more of the time unless the player they're aggressing on has made a big mistake with their positioning.

sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk If a team just sits and watches their soldiers bomb without taking any risk to support them then that team is just factually bad and they’ll never get anything done. If you’re looking to bait your team then you’re playing the game wrong

Oh absolutely this is not the optimal way to play but it's heavily incentivized because it's at least safe. This is true of a lot of things that have made the game significantly worse, they allow people to play in a non optimal way which is safe enough that they probably aren't going to lose immediately but also leads to them playing on their last for most of the game (see, vaccinator, overcommitting to last holds with multiple offclasses etc, maybe ESEA S14 quickfix too).

sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkIt really feels like the reasoning behind this plugin is just that players want everything for free. Why do you want to win an entire round off the back of one fight? Why do you want every solo soldier bomb to be effective without support?

I don't think either of these things will be the case if you do revert the speed change and if it really does change the meta so that this is always the case then I really think it shouldn't be implemented.

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]#55 So why is half committing bad? [/quote]

With the ability for one team to be able to get out really quickly, small advantages apply more pressure but only for a small time because of a teams ability to melt away and blob. I think this generally leads to less time spent actually fighting, longer stalemates and more time spent on last which imo are the least interesting parts of the game. The aggression that you gain from the medic being able to move faster with his team I don't think enables you to do more with aggression unless you have significant player or uber ad most of the time. In an even fight I think the faster the combo moves it's going to make the aggressors lose more of the time unless the player they're aggressing on has made a big mistake with their positioning.

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk] If a team just sits and watches their soldiers bomb without taking any risk to support them then that team is just factually bad and they’ll never get anything done. If you’re looking to bait your team then you’re playing the game wrong [/quote]

Oh absolutely this is not the optimal way to play but it's heavily incentivized because it's at least safe. This is true of a lot of things that have made the game significantly worse, they allow people to play in a non optimal way which is safe enough that they probably aren't going to lose immediately but also leads to them playing on their last for most of the game (see, vaccinator, overcommitting to last holds with multiple offclasses etc, maybe ESEA S14 quickfix too).

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]It really feels like the reasoning behind this plugin is just that players want everything for free. Why do you want to win an entire round off the back of one fight? Why do you want every solo soldier bomb to be effective without support? [/quote]

I don't think either of these things will be the case if you do revert the speed change and if it really does change the meta so that this is always the case then I really think it shouldn't be implemented.
64
#64
5 Frags +
WARHURYEAHThe game is at the point now where we shouldn't give a shit on trying to attract new players, we've done that shit for years and it's done fuck all.

I agree with everything but this. I think it is vastly underestimated how much good that effort has done. You know how vets love to get all misty-eyed over old players that don't game anymore? Well, the scene would have died without fresh faces to replace them. Sure, the scene may not have gotten numerically bigger, but without all the effort to attract new players this scene would not be anywhere near as healthy as it is now. I bet it'd be actually dead.

edit, i am referring to newbie mixes, team drives, newbie cups, etc. i am not referring to allowing dumbass shit in the game. but it is still important to lower the barrier for entry to competitive. players shouldnt have to completely relearn the game, that's all

[quote=WARHURYEAH]
The game is at the point now where we shouldn't give a shit on trying to attract new players, we've done that shit for years and it's done fuck all.[/quote]
I agree with everything but this. I think it is vastly underestimated how much good that effort has done. You know how vets love to get all misty-eyed over old players that don't game anymore? Well, the scene would have died without fresh faces to replace them. Sure, the scene may not have gotten numerically bigger, but without all the effort to attract new players this scene would not be anywhere near as healthy as it is now. I bet it'd be actually dead.

edit, i am referring to newbie mixes, team drives, newbie cups, etc. i am not referring to allowing dumbass shit in the game. but it is still important to lower the barrier for entry to competitive. players shouldnt have to completely relearn the game, that's all
65
#65
16 Frags +
MenachemWARHURYEAHThe game is at the point now where we shouldn't give a shit on trying to attract new players, we've done that shit for years and it's done fuck all.I agree with everything but this. I think it is vastly underestimated how much good that effort has done. You know how vets love to get all misty-eyed over old players that don't game anymore? Well, the scene would have died without fresh faces to replace them. Sure, the scene may not have gotten numerically bigger, but without all the effort to attract new players this scene would not be anywhere near as healthy as it is now. I bet it'd be actually dead.

yes but also no. attracting new players with newbie pugs etc was good, but i dont think adding more stupid guns to the whitelist has converted any pubbers and i think that was the point war was making. people who look to get into comp are probably already of a competitive mindset and would try it no matter what

if u look at reddit and stuff people still to this day think we ban 100 weapons when its actually closer to 15. those people are wilfully ignorant they just dont care

[quote=Menachem][quote=WARHURYEAH]
The game is at the point now where we shouldn't give a shit on trying to attract new players, we've done that shit for years and it's done fuck all.[/quote]
I agree with everything but this. I think it is vastly underestimated how much good that effort has done. You know how vets love to get all misty-eyed over old players that don't game anymore? Well, the scene would have died without fresh faces to replace them. Sure, the scene may not have gotten numerically bigger, but without all the effort to attract new players this scene would not be anywhere near as healthy as it is now. I bet it'd be actually dead.[/quote]
yes but also no. attracting new players with newbie pugs etc was good, but i dont think adding more stupid guns to the whitelist has converted any pubbers and i think that was the point war was making. people who look to get into comp are probably already of a competitive mindset and would try it no matter what

if u look at reddit and stuff people still to this day think we ban 100 weapons when its actually closer to 15. those people are wilfully ignorant they just dont care
66
#66
-9 Frags +

When will we remove random spread on hitscan?

When will we remove random spread on hitscan?
67
#67
2 Frags +

im not EU so i wont experience any of these changes but im really happy with the gunboats always apply and projectiles ignore teammates plugins. hoping removing scout speed buff is a good idea and that rgl follows suit

im not EU so i wont experience any of these changes but im really happy with the gunboats always apply and projectiles ignore teammates plugins. hoping removing scout speed buff is a good idea and that rgl follows suit
68
#68
-9 Frags +

I haven't got the energy or the time to write this out in the present context, so I'm posting what I wrote in the plugin testing discord in April when the idea was first put on the table. The important facts to remember are 1. This is by no means a trivial change. 2. Many people are not only against the change, but see the season as not worth playing if it is implemented. 3. People aren't going to immediately up and quit if they don't get a change they want - the same cannot be said for people who are forced to play with a change they vehemently oppose. But if you want to rip this community apart by pandering to a small but vocal minority, then be my guest.

Here is my original argument:

To widely implement any gameplay change, the end goal should be to have a yes/no vote on that specific change. Consent is extremely important in this – if everyone (e.g. in ETF2L) has to abide by it in future, it needs to be widely agreed to in order not to leave significant sections of the community angry and upset that they (as many will see it) are being forced to play a version of the game they do not like by a small group of influential prem players. Many democracies require a supermajority to enact a constitutional change that will affect everyone, in order not to allow a small, vocal majority to trample the rights and interests of a minority. The same principle should apply here. Indeed, since we are such a small community and cannot really afford to alienate a large section of our playerbase, I would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. This seems to me to be the only way to move forward with such a large change without causing anger and resentment from those who do not want it, and potentially a mass exodus from the league and community.

I haven't got the energy or the time to write this out in the present context, so I'm posting what I wrote in the plugin testing discord in April when the idea was first put on the table. The important facts to remember are 1. This is by no means a trivial change. 2. Many people are not only against the change, but see the season as not worth playing if it is implemented. 3. People aren't going to immediately up and quit if they don't get a change they want - the same cannot be said for people who are forced to play with a change they vehemently oppose. But if you want to rip this community apart by pandering to a small but vocal minority, then be my guest.

Here is my original argument:

To widely implement any gameplay change, the end goal should be to have a yes/no vote on that specific change. Consent is extremely important in this – if everyone (e.g. in ETF2L) has to abide by it in future, it needs to be widely agreed to in order not to leave significant sections of the community angry and upset that they (as many will see it) are being forced to play a version of the game they do not like by a small group of influential prem players. Many democracies require a supermajority to enact a constitutional change that will affect everyone, in order not to allow a small, vocal majority to trample the rights and interests of a minority. The same principle should apply here. Indeed, since we are such a small community and cannot really afford to alienate a large section of our playerbase, I would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. This seems to me to be the only way to move forward with such a large change without causing anger and resentment from those who do not want it, and potentially a mass exodus from the league and community.
69
#69
15 Frags +

I think you're being a bit too overdramatic here. We're not talking about the governance of a nation, we're talking about a meta-shift in a videogame. A meta that once existed, mind you.

Important to remember is also that polls about meta changes are often gonna be skewed towards the current / the known, as people who are not familiar with the previous meta will tend to prefer it to stay the same. By putting it in a season the changes are given a chance, and people not familiar with the previous meta will have better knowledge and more refined opinions on wether or not they think the changes are good or not. I would assume that if everyone hates the changes after a season they would get reversed. That's also the point of trying them in a season as opposed to trying them out in cups and dmixes.

Eemes1. This is by no means a trivial change. 2. Many people are not only against the change, but see the season as not worth playing if it is implemented. 3. People aren't going to immediately up and quit if they don't get a change they want - the same cannot be said for people who are forced to play with a change they vehemently oppose. But if you want to rip this community apart by pandering to a small but vocal minority, then be my guest.

1. Maybe you dont think it's trivial, but it is reversible
2. Imo this is a perfect presentation of bias towards keeping things the same. Basically these people are of the mentality that it shouldn't be given a chance.
3. Realistically, how many players are gonna stop playing because of this? It's at best an educated guess on your part and even then I still think it's worth trying.

I think you're being a bit too overdramatic here. We're not talking about the governance of a nation, we're talking about a meta-shift in a videogame. A meta that once existed, mind you.

Important to remember is also that polls about meta changes are often gonna be skewed towards the current / the known, as people who are not familiar with the previous meta will tend to prefer it to stay the same. By putting it in a season the changes are given a chance, and people not familiar with the previous meta will have better knowledge and more refined opinions on wether or not they think the changes are good or not. I would assume that if everyone hates the changes after a season they would get reversed. That's also the point of trying them in a season as opposed to trying them out in cups and dmixes.

[quote=Eemes]1. This is by no means a trivial change. 2. Many people are not only against the change, but see the season as not worth playing if it is implemented. 3. People aren't going to immediately up and quit if they don't get a change they want - the same cannot be said for people who are forced to play with a change they vehemently oppose. But if you want to rip this community apart by pandering to a small but vocal minority, then be my guest. [/quote]
1. Maybe you dont think it's trivial, but it is reversible
2. Imo this is a perfect presentation of bias towards keeping things the same. Basically these people are of the mentality that it shouldn't be given a chance.
3. Realistically, how many players are gonna stop playing because of this? It's at best an educated guess on your part and even then I still think it's worth trying.
70
#70
25 Frags +
EemesI would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league.

lol

[quote=Eemes]I would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. [/quote]
lol
71
#71
15 Frags +

I think this is getting blown out of proportion. These plugins are a big change by tf2 standards, but peanuts compared to other esports with active development teams. Not only is there more change, it is also less democratic because the developers can do whatever the fuck they want and everyone has to deal with it. While only the popular plugins will get any use in tf2.

So yeah, this is a trivial change by comparison. So trivial in fact that i didn't even notice the plugin when i played a mix with it the other day (on soldier). I only realized when people were talking about it after the game.

I think this is getting blown out of proportion. These plugins are a big change by tf2 standards, but peanuts compared to other esports with active development teams. Not only is there more change, it is also less democratic because the developers can do whatever the fuck they want and everyone has to deal with it. While only the popular plugins will get any use in tf2.

So yeah, this is a trivial change by comparison. So trivial in fact that i didn't even notice the plugin when i played a mix with it the other day (on soldier). I only realized when people were talking about it after the game.
72
#72
5 Frags +

people werent on board with med speed changes when it was first released either we just had to deal with it because valve said so, difference is now we can change things like that on our own terms

people werent on board with med speed changes when it was first released either we just had to deal with it because valve said so, difference is now we can change things like that on our own terms
73
#73
-6 Frags +
YeeHawEemesI would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. lol

You haven't even got 50%.

[quote=YeeHaw][quote=Eemes]I would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. [/quote]
lol[/quote]
You haven't even got 50%.
74
#74
12 Frags +
EemesYeeHawEemesI would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. lolYou haven't even got 50%.

just stop, it is obvious that you dont like the change u dont have to use warped logic to disguise it

[quote=Eemes][quote=YeeHaw][quote=Eemes]I would argue that the supermajority requirement should be as high as 80%, ideally 90% - that means, unless we can get 4/5 people in ETF2L to agree to the change, it does not go ahead in the league. [/quote]
lol[/quote]
You haven't even got 50%.[/quote]
just stop, it is obvious that you dont like the change u dont have to use warped logic to disguise it
75
#75
-3 Frags +

warped logic:
https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

DuMmTmpeople werent on board with med speed changes when it was first released either we just had to deal with it because valve said so, difference is now we can change things like that on our own terms

How is this on our own terms? This is on the terms of a small but fanatical subset of prem.

warped logic:
https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

[quote=DuMmTm]people werent on board with med speed changes when it was first released either we just had to deal with it because valve said so, difference is now we can change things like that on our own terms[/quote]

How is this on our own terms? This is on the terms of a small but fanatical subset of prem.
76
#76
8 Frags +
OlghaFor me it just dumps down medic positioning to: Stay forback no matter what

I really liked to do all kind of trying to overextend with scout speed just to bait someone into chasing me, which now will not be possible.

Positionning will not be more Important and harder, it will just become more boring repetitive and so, less fun.

Just pointing out that in ETF2L, medics in prem shifts all season( for s36 we had 12 differents medics playing the season), meanwhile on the other classes, this is not the case.

yup

this completely kills ams tf2 where you could take your uber advantage across multiple points and be hyper aggressive

just gonna have to wait for medics to cross the map ig

[quote=Olgha]For me it just dumps down medic positioning to: Stay forback no matter what

I really liked to do all kind of trying to overextend with scout speed just to bait someone into chasing me, which now will not be possible.

Positionning will not be more Important and harder, it will just become more boring repetitive and so, less fun.

Just pointing out that in ETF2L, medics in prem shifts all season( for s36 we had 12 differents medics playing the season), meanwhile on the other classes, this is not the case.[/quote]

yup

this completely kills ams tf2 where you could take your uber advantage across multiple points and be hyper aggressive

just gonna have to wait for medics to cross the map ig
77
#77
5 Frags +
_KermitWackyfireballWhipProjectiles collide with teammates which can be super annoying
Gunboats don't apply damage reduction on self damage while damaging an enemy
- plugins fix both
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.

While that may be true, soldier gets super fucked by scout at close range because scattergun does big damage, which is fair. The scout though, can also just hold w and any damage the soldier does to the scout at close range gets basically reflected back at him. Effectively allowing a scout to 1-shot a soldier which is super bullshit. This serves as a nice buff to soldier while not requiring possible actual meta shifts, like the med move speed.

https://clips.twitch.tv/DeterminedSpineyDragonKeyboardCat

[quote=_Kermit][quote=Wackyfireball][quote=Whip]
Projectiles collide with teammates which can be super annoying
Gunboats don't apply damage reduction on self damage while damaging an enemy
- plugins fix both
[/quote]
As far as I'm aware and according to the wiki, gunboats aren't suppose to apply when you hit an enemy, why would this be changed if its a not a bug.[/quote]

While that may be true, soldier gets super fucked by scout at close range because scattergun does big damage, which is fair. The scout though, can also just hold w and any damage the soldier does to the scout at close range gets basically reflected back at him. Effectively allowing a scout to 1-shot a soldier which is super bullshit. This serves as a nice buff to soldier while not requiring possible actual meta shifts, like the med move speed.[/quote]

https://clips.twitch.tv/DeterminedSpineyDragonKeyboardCat
78
#78
5 Frags +

I agree with Eemes on what he’s said this page and think he’s made some valid points.

#69 I think his metaphor of politics is perfectly valid, just because the context is different it doesn’t devalue his point at all. ETF2L, by going forward with the change despite the majority voting against it, are managing their league undemocratically. Their decision represents the smaller group of people. In a situation like this, where the change to the game is so massive, a larger majority should be required. If the amount of people who want the change is anything but an overwhelming majority then why would you ever go through with the change? I understand that more testing is required but the vote itself determined that more people than not didn’t want to have it tested in a season. Also, as Eemes stated, some people who are so strongly against the change will not play seasons with the plugin enabled whereas the people who voted for the plugins’ implementation, I’m sure, would continue to play without it. Also your argument about “people not wanting change skewing the vote” could easily be applied inversely to the players of the old meta who want to revive that so I don’t think it's a fair criticism. (Edit: In hindsight I guess you could say, for example, a majority of 55>45 for the change (hypothetical) would suffice as a majority too and not making the change based on that could also be considered undemocratic, I think the point I'm trying to make is that the change is so drastic and it's not as if theres a demand that change NEEDS to happen, it's that the proposition of this plugin holds so much weight that the level required for it to replace something as steadfast and integral as a metagame should be higher compared to not changing it.)

(I, for one, would not play the season with the plugin active and I’m not the only one of people I know.)

It’s definitely not trivial, and yes it is reversible. However I think having this season with the unpopular plugins implemented would be so harmful for Europe’s playerbase, it would deter people from playing even if reversed and disenchant people with ETF2L, who already don’t have the best track record for popular changes. People’s motivation for playing based on the league’s competency and ability to represent their desires is a huge deal. It’s not as if I don’t agree the change should be tested if 45% of players would like to see it tested, I just don’t agree that a season is the correct or healthiest platform for it when 55% of players don’t want that. I don’t think you should be arguing “how many people will quit permanently because of this test season?” but instead consider the impact of carrying out a decision that 55% of the players don’t want and how that could harm people’s motivation to continue playing in a league that carries out the opposite of what they’ve voiced.

#70, #74 Sure, unifying 70-80% of this continent’s playerbase might be a bit unrealistic but when the proposed change is a monumental meta shift the bar for making change NEEDS to be high and ESPECIALLY when the change is so divisive. At the very least though 45% is not a majority. I also don’t see how his logic is warped.

#71 I really don’t think it’s getting blown out of proportion and I don’t think the points you make about game developers or other games with bigger changes really hold much value. It might be a trivial change in comparison but that doesn’t make it trivial for us? This is huge. And without this being an affront to your skill level but I think it’s a problem that people in general aren’t great at grasping what potential the medic attach speed brings so if a team, or an unorganised mix team like in your situation, does a poor job at playing with the medic's base toolset then I doubt you would notice much of a difference.

#72 I think people were opposed to the change at first but they grew to realise that it brought value to the game. People have adapted since and now play effectively and happily with it, look at a team like FROYO. Yes the possibility of a plugin was a fairly recent revelation, though I don’t think the outcry for the change has been there as long as you’re making out. The plugin just met the needs of a subset of players who had a feeling it would fix some of their problems with the meta, which as I’ve argued previously I don’t agree with in the first place.

#76 I agree with both you and Olgha that this plugin would disallow so much interesting team/medic aggression and reduce general medic play/positioning to more holding. The plugin limits a team’s ability to fight for space both offensively and defensively because the heals have to position themselves so much more conservatively and can’t move as quickly.

I agree with Eemes on what he’s said this page and think he’s made some valid points.

#69 I think his metaphor of politics is perfectly valid, just because the context is different it doesn’t devalue his point at all. ETF2L, by going forward with the change despite the majority voting against it, are managing their league undemocratically. Their decision represents the smaller group of people. In a situation like this, where the change to the game is so massive, a larger majority should be required. [b]If the amount of people who want the change is anything but an overwhelming majority then why would you ever go through with the change?[/b] I understand that more testing is required but the vote itself determined that more people than not didn’t want to have it tested in a season. Also, as Eemes stated, some people who are so strongly against the change will not play seasons with the plugin enabled whereas the people who voted for the plugins’ implementation, I’m sure, would continue to play without it. Also your argument about “people not wanting change skewing the vote” could easily be applied inversely to the players of the old meta who want to revive that so I don’t think it's a fair criticism. (Edit: In hindsight I guess you could say, for example, a majority of 55>45 for the change (hypothetical) would suffice as a majority too and not making the change based on that could also be considered undemocratic, I think the point I'm trying to make is that the change is so drastic and it's not as if theres a demand that change NEEDS to happen, it's that the proposition of this plugin holds so much weight that the level required for it to replace something as steadfast and integral as a metagame should be higher compared to not changing it.)

(I, for one, would not play the season with the plugin active and I’m not the only one of people I know.)

It’s definitely not trivial, and yes it is reversible. However I think having this season with the unpopular plugins implemented would be so harmful for Europe’s playerbase, it would deter people from playing even if reversed and disenchant people with ETF2L, who already don’t have the best track record for popular changes. People’s motivation for playing based on the league’s competency and ability to represent their desires is a huge deal. It’s not as if I don’t agree the change should be tested if 45% of players would like to see it tested, I just don’t agree that a season is the correct or healthiest platform for it when 55% of players don’t want that. I don’t think you should be arguing “how many people will quit permanently because of this test season?” but instead consider the impact of carrying out a decision that 55% of the players don’t want and how that could harm people’s motivation to continue playing in a league that carries out the opposite of what they’ve voiced.

#70, #74 Sure, unifying 70-80% of this continent’s playerbase might be a bit unrealistic but when the proposed change is a monumental meta shift the bar for making change NEEDS to be high and ESPECIALLY when the change is so divisive. At the very least though 45% is not a majority. I also don’t see how his logic is warped.

#71 I really don’t think it’s getting blown out of proportion and I don’t think the points you make about game developers or other games with bigger changes really hold much value. It might be a trivial change in comparison but that doesn’t make it trivial for us? This is huge. And without this being an affront to your skill level but I think it’s a problem that people in general aren’t great at grasping what potential the medic attach speed brings so if a team, or an unorganised mix team like in your situation, does a poor job at playing with the medic's base toolset then I doubt you would notice much of a difference.

#72 I think people were opposed to the change at first but they grew to realise that it brought value to the game. People have adapted since and now play effectively and happily with it, look at a team like FROYO. Yes the possibility of a plugin was a fairly recent revelation, though I don’t think the outcry for the change has been there as long as you’re making out. The plugin just met the needs of a subset of players who had a feeling it would fix some of their problems with the meta, which as I’ve argued previously I don’t agree with in the first place.

#76 I agree with both you and Olgha that this plugin would disallow so much interesting team/medic aggression and reduce general medic play/positioning to more holding. The plugin limits a team’s ability to fight for space both offensively and defensively because the heals have to position themselves so much more conservatively and can’t move as quickly.
79
#79
-3 Frags +

#78
The logic of your argument goes pretty much to the point where we should only change something if all of humanity is happy with it. Luckily, thats not how democracy works. The essence of all that is "we had a democratic vote, but we should let the minority win". It also simply doesnt matter if someone thinks the magnitude of the thing thats up for change is high or low, thats completely negligible.

Yes, the polls show that in the attach speed case the minority "won" but the headlines of the votum clearly say "FEEDBACK of prem players... etc" which I am really not sure anyone in this thread read.
Feedback ≠ Vote

If there was an actual vote it should and has to be available for all of etf2ls playerbase. If the staff then decides to change the fudamental principles of democracy in your favor is another story..

Edit:

80-90% is a guillable ideal that could never be reached and would halt all progress. I admire your youthful idealism but realistically that's just stupid.

#78
The logic of your argument goes pretty much to the point where we should only change something if all of humanity is happy with it. Luckily, thats not how democracy works. The essence of all that is "we had a democratic vote, but we should let the minority win". It also simply doesnt matter if someone thinks the magnitude of the thing thats up for change is high or low, thats completely negligible.

Yes, the polls show that in the attach speed case the minority "won" but the headlines of the votum clearly say "FEEDBACK of prem players... etc" which I am really not sure anyone in this thread read.
Feedback ≠ Vote

If there was an actual vote it should and has to be available for all of etf2ls playerbase. If the staff then decides to change the fudamental principles of democracy in your favor is another story..

Edit:

80-90% is a guillable ideal that could never be reached and would halt all progress. I admire your youthful idealism but realistically that's just stupid.
80
#80
-6 Frags +
deca The essence of all that is "we had a democratic vote, but we should let the minority win".

So you're against letting the minority win a vote? https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

[quote=deca] The essence of all that is "we had a democratic vote, but we should let the minority win". [/quote]

So you're against letting the minority win a vote? https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png
81
#81
0 Frags +
Eemesdeca The essence of all that is "we had a democratic vote, but we should let the minority win".
So you're against letting the minority win a vote? https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png

You obviously didn't read even half of what I posted lol

[quote=Eemes][quote=deca] The essence of all that is "we had a democratic vote, but we should let the minority win". [/quote]

So you're against letting the minority win a vote? https://etf2l.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/2020-09-13-20_23_18-Window.png[/quote]

You obviously didn't read even half of what I posted lol
82
#82
-4 Frags +

Ok admittedly it was a cheap shot, but it's pretty rich of you to claim to be standing up for democratic ideals and yet ignoring the results of the only poll we've had.

As far as your criticism of my supermajority argument goes, there's certainly debate to be had on what level it should be set at. But as long as this poll is our dataset, those points are irrelevant. Yes, I am arguing that ideally we should have a supermajority, which you can contest till the cows come home - but you don't even have a simple majority so that really makes no odds.

I do agree with you however that there should be a clearly defined poll of the whole league on this issue, ideally with ETF2L setting out their methodology for what they are going to do with the results beforehand.

Ok admittedly it was a cheap shot, but it's pretty rich of you to claim to be standing up for democratic ideals and yet ignoring the results of the only poll we've had.

As far as your criticism of my supermajority argument goes, there's certainly debate to be had on what level it should be set at. But as long as this poll is our dataset, those points are irrelevant. Yes, I am arguing that ideally we should have a supermajority, which you can contest till the cows come home - but you don't even have a simple majority so that really makes no odds.

I do agree with you however that there should be a clearly defined poll of the whole league on this issue, ideally with ETF2L setting out their methodology for what they are going to do with the results beforehand.
83
#83
-2 Frags +

its just the louder minority winning the admins over, despite losing the vote

its just the louder minority winning the admins over, despite losing the vote
84
#84
15 Frags +

Regardless of your stance on the plugins, if the admins never try them out in a season, people will cry endlessly about not having them in a season.

This way, if it goes well and people like the plugins/changes, good job admins. If people don't like them, we revert and admins don't have to deal with people crying about not having the changes tested.

Regardless of your stance on the plugins, if the admins never try them out in a season, people will cry endlessly about not having them in a season.

This way, if it goes well and people like the plugins/changes, good job admins. If people don't like them, we revert and admins don't have to deal with people crying about not having the changes tested.
85
#85
16 Frags +

Admins dont need a majority to agree to make a decision, or even a 'supermajority'. If they only made decisions that the majority agreed with then no new maps would ever be played and we would still not be using unlocks. Of course, the flipside of that is that we would have never had to play Cardinal, but you know what? It was removed in the following season like this change will be if it turns out to be a negative one. It's really pathetic that you have to make vague threats of 'people will not play the season and never come back!!', just dont play if you dont want to.

Admins dont need a majority to agree to make a decision, or even a 'supermajority'. If they only made decisions that the majority agreed with then no new maps would ever be played and we would still not be using unlocks. Of course, the flipside of that is that we would have never had to play Cardinal, but you know what? It was removed in the following season like this change will be if it turns out to be a negative one. It's really pathetic that you have to make vague threats of 'people will not play the season and never come back!!', just dont play if you dont want to.
86
#86
13 Frags +

Revert the changes or u won't be seeing the elektros next season.

Revert the changes or u won't be seeing the elektros next season.
87
#87
-6 Frags +

To be fair to you Yeehaw at least you're consistent. You've argued from the start that the plugin should be pushed through regardless of what the community thinks.

https://imgur.com/a/HZ9oa5o

To be fair to you Yeehaw at least you're consistent. You've argued from the start that the plugin should be pushed through regardless of what the community thinks.

https://imgur.com/a/HZ9oa5o
88
#88
8 Frags +

Just going to jump in and say I'm super excited we're going to try a season without the speed buff. If it doesn't make the game more fun, fine. If it makes the game more fun, also fine. It makes medic so much more exciting knowing you can get punished more easily

and since I'm a massive and undeniable masochist this is right up my alley

Just going to jump in and say I'm super excited we're going to try a season without the speed buff. If it doesn't make the game more fun, fine. If it makes the game more fun, also fine. It makes medic so much more exciting knowing you can get punished more easily

and since I'm a massive and undeniable masochist this is right up my alley
89
#89
14 Frags +
Collaide
I think it's nice!

It means demomen can more accurately line up roller spam kinda like cs:go smoke. its probably not gonna be the most useful thing ever but it adds a layer of skill [correct me if im wrong]

am replying late and also to the not most relevant part of the plugins but it is a purely visual change, pipes still have variance in their accuracy from when they're shot, go try it out on a server if you want. Both where they land and the way rollers roll are still random and the amount is probably not reduced at all by this. I just think it looks freaky, makes stock pipes look like LnL.

Now to comment on relevant stuff: people whinging about democratic process when it comes to implementation of a plugin are literally just as retarded as the people who wanted ROBUST JUDICIAL SYSTEM TRANSPARENCY on AC bans lmfaoooo, and I say this as someone who on first impression does not like the plugin. I'm firmly on the side of the people who say we should put it in for a season and see what happens (even tho I think we'll probably get rid of the med speed plugin, between it having less depth and alienating both new and established players).

[quote=Collaide]

I think it's nice!

It means demomen can more accurately line up roller spam kinda like cs:go smoke. its probably not gonna be the most useful thing ever but it adds a layer of skill [i][correct me if im wrong][/i][/quote]

am replying late and also to the not most relevant part of the plugins but it is a purely visual change, pipes still have variance in their accuracy from when they're shot, go try it out on a server if you want. Both where they land and the way rollers roll are still random and the amount is probably not reduced at all by this. I just think it looks freaky, makes stock pipes look like LnL.

Now to comment on relevant stuff: people whinging about democratic process when it comes to implementation of a plugin are literally just as retarded as the people who wanted ROBUST JUDICIAL SYSTEM TRANSPARENCY on AC bans lmfaoooo, and I say this as someone who on first impression does not like the plugin. I'm firmly on the side of the people who say we should put it in for a season and see what happens (even tho I think we'll probably get rid of the med speed plugin, between it having less depth and alienating both new and established players).
90
#90
5 Frags +
YeeHawIf they only made decisions that the majority agreed with then no new maps would ever be played

But that is the case?

[quote=YeeHaw]If they only made decisions that the majority agreed with then no new maps would ever be played[/quote]

But that is the case?
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