Upvote Upvoted 53 Downvote Downvoted
1 2 3 4 ⋅⋅ 6
Remove Iron Bomber from whitelist
1
#1
0 Frags +

Probably gonna be a boring post to most people since I've kinda been going on about it since the new info came to light and even before that there were others harping on it for ages, but now that there's definitive proof that it's just easier to use than stock pipes this unlock should probably be banned. Kinda want there to be some formal discussion on it since most of it has been on other threads related to whitelists or the original thread where it was showcased how broken this shit really is.

Obviously (or at least obviously to me) it should be unbanned if valve fix it or a plugin is made that fixes it (I'm not at all knowledgeable on exactly how possible this is but my first thoughts would be to say it's unlikely if not impossible). I still think that if it worked how everyone thought it did it would actually be healthier for the game to have consistent rollers than wacky chaos rollers (utility from better roller jumps + objectively speaking mechanics that behave in a more consistent manner provide for a more competitive environment, even if the effect is stronger as a result).

I also wanna refute a point that some people were making where they acknowledge that it's broken and stupid but Demo probably needs it for balance reasons:

I think removing the Iron Bomber at this point would be a slight nerf to all Demomen but it's not something that should be missed. Ever since having it pointed out I notice the amount of pipes I hit that are just about grazing someone's shoulder or hair and I'm like "This is a cool unlock". Obviously I/most demos hit pipes that would also be hits with stock a majority of the time, that's what good aim and muscle memory leads to, but what would have been an unfortunate close miss is now a hit that nets me a frag/damage/round/etc. You don't aim for the edges of hitboxes just because you can. End of the day, Demo is still the strongest class in the game, and was somewhat underrated as a DM class for the longest time. This can be proven by pretty much any Div1+ Demoman tbh but even more so by the top Demos of any region who DM their way out of bad situations. (I don't think many active top-level players still buy into the whole "Demo is the weakest direct combat class" line, and even those who do realise it's not as severe as in 2010 when no one knew how to hold a mouse and had no limbs).

TLDR: Demo with stock pipes is strong/balanced enough, he doesn't need something that randomly bails him out a few times a game. Also it's probably unfun as fuck to play against specifically as Scout, and yeah "haha scout class in 2020 is OP" but there's better ways to balance the dynamics between Scout and Projectile classes beyond "Demoman sometimes kills scout for free ontop of being able to outplay them sometimes anyways" (I rarely notice hitting Soldiers cause of the broken collision fuckery)

Obligatory tf.tv discussion thread strawpoll: https://www.strawpoll.me/20917602

Probably gonna be a boring post to most people since I've kinda been going on about it since the new info came to light and even before that there were others harping on it for ages, but now that there's definitive proof that it's just easier to use than stock pipes this unlock should probably be banned. Kinda want there to be some formal discussion on it since most of it has been on other threads related to whitelists or the original thread where it was showcased how broken this shit really is.

Obviously (or at least obviously to me) it should be unbanned if valve fix it or a plugin is made that fixes it (I'm not at all knowledgeable on exactly how possible this is but my first thoughts would be to say it's unlikely if not impossible). I still think that if it worked how everyone thought it did it would actually be healthier for the game to have consistent rollers than wacky chaos rollers (utility from better roller jumps + objectively speaking mechanics that behave in a more consistent manner provide for a more competitive environment, even if the effect is stronger as a result).

I also wanna refute a point that some people were making where they acknowledge that it's broken and stupid but Demo probably needs it for balance reasons:

I think removing the Iron Bomber at this point would be a slight nerf to all Demomen but it's not something that should be missed. Ever since having it pointed out I notice the amount of pipes I hit that are just about grazing someone's shoulder or hair and I'm like "This is a cool unlock". Obviously I/most demos hit pipes that would also be hits with stock a majority of the time, that's what good aim and muscle memory leads to, but what would have been an unfortunate close miss is now a hit that nets me a frag/damage/round/etc. You don't aim for the edges of hitboxes just because you can. End of the day, Demo is still the strongest class in the game, and was somewhat underrated as a DM class for the longest time. This can be proven by pretty much any Div1+ Demoman tbh but even more so by the top Demos of any region who DM their way out of bad situations. (I don't think many active top-level players still buy into the whole "Demo is the weakest direct combat class" line, and even those who do realise it's not as severe as in 2010 when no one knew how to hold a mouse and had no limbs).

[b]TLDR: Demo with stock pipes is strong/balanced enough, he doesn't need something that randomly bails him out a few times a game. Also it's probably unfun as fuck to play against specifically as Scout, and yeah "haha scout class in 2020 is OP" but there's better ways to balance the dynamics between Scout and Projectile classes beyond "Demoman sometimes kills scout for free ontop of being able to outplay them sometimes anyways" (I rarely notice hitting Soldiers cause of the broken collision fuckery)[/b]

Obligatory tf.tv discussion thread strawpoll: https://www.strawpoll.me/20917602
2
#2
-23 Frags +

its not broken its part of the physics engine. I think it could potentially have a small nerf but its not like its game breaking. demo doesnt need a nerf, it's probably the hardest 6s class. Also regular pipes are still viable and good at spamming. This has been know for 4 years at least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfafLuLmy8 (you can see the iron bomber curves slightly) and I think a lot of people could tell right away it was easier to hit. If anything the mad milk and jarate reskins should be bannable because they are different and cost money but those weapons are already banned anyways.

its not broken its part of the physics engine. I think it could potentially have a small nerf but its not like its game breaking. demo doesnt need a nerf, it's probably the hardest 6s class. Also regular pipes are still viable and good at spamming. This has been know for 4 years at least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfafLuLmy8 (you can see the iron bomber curves slightly) and I think a lot of people could tell right away it was easier to hit. If anything the mad milk and jarate reskins should be bannable because they are different and cost money but those weapons are already banned anyways.
3
#3
18 Frags +
maxc232its not broken its part of the physics engine. I think it could potentially have a small nerf but its not like its game breaking. demo doesnt need a nerf, it's probably the hardest 6s class. Also regular pipes are still viable and good at spamming. This has been know for 4 years at least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfafLuLmy8 (you can see the iron bomber curves slightly) and I think a lot of people could tell right away it was easier to hit. If anything the mad milk and jarate reskins should be bannable because they are different and cost money but those weapons are already banned anyways.

https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1008449/iron-bomber-regular-pipes-have-the-same-physics

This thread is what I'm referring to when I say it's an objective upgrade. The more consistent arc stuff was and sitll remains as an irrelevant point tbh, first of all I'm not even sure if it does anything in real game situations and 2nd of all it wouldn't balance out the projectile being almost 2x bigger than stock pipes. People take into account the horizontal axis immediately when thinking about this (easier to hit people moving side to side), but not many people think about how why this was the reason that Iron Bomber feels like it hits you before it hits you (if that makes any sense). Nothing to do with smaller model or it being darker, so harder to see and react to.

[quote=maxc232]its not broken its part of the physics engine. I think it could potentially have a small nerf but its not like its game breaking. demo doesnt need a nerf, it's probably the hardest 6s class. Also regular pipes are still viable and good at spamming. This has been know for 4 years at least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACfafLuLmy8 (you can see the iron bomber curves slightly) and I think a lot of people could tell right away it was easier to hit. If anything the mad milk and jarate reskins should be bannable because they are different and cost money but those weapons are already banned anyways.[/quote]

https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/1008449/iron-bomber-regular-pipes-have-the-same-physics

This thread is what I'm referring to when I say it's an objective upgrade. The more consistent arc stuff was and sitll remains as an irrelevant point tbh, first of all I'm not even sure if it does anything in real game situations and 2nd of all it wouldn't balance out the projectile being almost 2x bigger than stock pipes. People take into account the horizontal axis immediately when thinking about this (easier to hit people moving side to side), but not many people think about how why this was the reason that Iron Bomber feels like it hits you before it hits you (if that makes any sense). Nothing to do with smaller model or it being darker, so harder to see and react to.
4
#4
45 Frags +

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/39247293/92310815-d44e2e80-ef7f-11ea-81eb-28149fc9f5ec.png

now i understand why i died to pipes that missed so often :D

maxc232its not broken its part of the physics engine.

the physics arent different that was just a theory as to why this shit was so op cos everyone noticed it was un upgrade and tried to find a reason why

[img]https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/39247293/92310815-d44e2e80-ef7f-11ea-81eb-28149fc9f5ec.png[/img] now i understand why i died to pipes that missed so often :D
[quote=maxc232]its not broken its part of the physics engine.[/quote]
the physics arent different that was just a theory as to why this shit was so op cos everyone noticed it was un upgrade and tried to find a reason why
5
#5
32 Frags +

+1

+1
6
#6
5 Frags +

Upvoted

Upvoted
7
#7
3 Frags +

i agree

i agree
8
#8
37 Frags +

It's a pretty straightforward fix: https://github.com/mastercomfig/team-comtress-2/pull/63/files

I don't have much experience with SourceMod but from what I have seen it shouldn't be too hard there either.

It's a pretty straightforward fix: https://github.com/mastercomfig/team-comtress-2/pull/63/files

I don't have much experience with SourceMod but from what I have seen it shouldn't be too hard there either.
9
#9
21 Frags +
MakAlso it's probably unfun as fuck to play against specifically as Scout, and yeah "haha scout class in 2020 is OP"

Personally, from my time playing both classes, I can say that it can be annoying on Scout sometimes but its even worse on Soldier because that -100 HP just makes you stop existing in a fight. Not to mention the rollers that basically explode next to you near instantly if the Demoman happens to actually miss the pipes somehow.

[quote=Mak]Also it's probably unfun as fuck to play against specifically as Scout, and yeah "haha scout class in 2020 is OP" [/quote]

Personally, from my time playing both classes, I can say that it can be annoying on Scout sometimes but its even worse on Soldier because that -100 HP just makes you stop existing in a fight. Not to mention the rollers that basically explode next to you near instantly if the Demoman happens to actually miss the pipes somehow.
10
#10
19 Frags +

didn't ask plus you're a scout main

didn't ask plus you're a scout main
11
#11
3 Frags +
BumFreezepic of hitboxes

off topic, but I'm surprised the loose cannon hitboxes are the same size as stock pipes. Always felt bigger to me

[quote=BumFreeze]pic of hitboxes[/quote]
off topic, but I'm surprised the loose cannon hitboxes are the same size as stock pipes. Always felt bigger to me
12
#12
6 Frags +

dont forget that because the bigger hitbox extends in all dimensions, so the iron bomber actually hits quicker than stock pipes as well

Show Content
(sometimes, i assume the weapon hitboxes are like the projectile/collision hitboxes in that they are aligned to the map grid)
dont forget that because the bigger hitbox extends in all dimensions, so the iron bomber actually hits [i]quicker[/i] than stock pipes as well [spoiler](sometimes, i assume the weapon hitboxes are like the projectile/collision hitboxes in that they are aligned to the map grid)[/spoiler]
13
#13
2 Frags +

how is the vote 50-50? i'm genuinely curious as to how anyone can defend this and say it should be in the game in its current state

how is the vote 50-50? i'm genuinely curious as to how anyone can defend this and say it should be in the game in its current state
14
#14
12 Frags +
mmrarktehow is the vote 50-50? i'm genuinely curious as to how anyone can defend this and say it should be in the game in its current state

I'd assume mostly because people want demo to have this kind of upgrade/ want demo to be a stronger class.

Personally I think it should be banned in it's current state since it is technically a straight upgrade. But I would much rather just have a fix for it instead of it being outright banned.

If we do want this fixed shouldn't we also report this to Valve as a "bug" or something? I very much doubt that anyone from Valve would every read this random thread. And if we do report it we might at least get a fix this decade.

[quote=mmrarkte]how is the vote 50-50? i'm genuinely curious as to how anyone can defend this and say it should be in the game in its current state[/quote]
I'd assume mostly because people want demo to have this kind of upgrade/ want demo to be a stronger class.

Personally I think it should be banned in it's current state since it is technically a straight upgrade. But I would much rather just have a fix for it instead of it being outright banned.

If we do want this fixed shouldn't we also report this to Valve as a "bug" or something? I very much doubt that anyone from Valve would every read this random thread. And if we do report it we might at least get a fix this decade.
15
#15
0 Frags +
BvIf we do want this fixed shouldn't we also report this to Valve as a "bug" or something? I very much doubt that anyone from Valve would every read this random thread. And if we do report it we might at least get a fix this decade.

Already reported on Github

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Source-1-Games/issues/3340

[quote=Bv]
If we do want this fixed shouldn't we also report this to Valve as a "bug" or something? I very much doubt that anyone from Valve would every read this random thread. And if we do report it we might at least get a fix this decade.[/quote]

Already reported on Github

https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Source-1-Games/issues/3340
16
#16
15 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/NJIYCCj.png

lol valve has seen it at least so we can be secure in knowing it will be fixed by 2025

[img]https://i.imgur.com/NJIYCCj.png[/img]

lol valve has seen it at least so we can be secure in knowing it will be fixed by 2025
17
#17
14 Frags +

If you're a demo using Iron Bomber and afraid you're gonna perform worse with the grenade launcher, I can assure you that you can still perform well. I neither have the best aim in the world nor am I a top level demoman, but as a stubborn stock user I can still accomplish things that other people manage to do with the Iron Bomber and I don't say that to suck my own willy. Pipe aim shouldn't be the one thing that makes a demoman good, you should rely on your other skills. If you master those, you will have no issues using stock honestly.

The best thing would be a fix though, we can only pray for that.

If you're a demo using Iron Bomber and afraid you're gonna perform worse with the grenade launcher, I can assure you that you can still perform well. I neither have the best aim in the world nor am I a top level demoman, but as a stubborn stock user I can still accomplish things that other people manage to do with the Iron Bomber and I don't say that to suck my own willy. Pipe aim shouldn't be the one thing that makes a demoman good, you should rely on your other skills. If you master those, you will have no issues using stock honestly.

The best thing would be a fix though, we can only pray for that.
18
#18
0 Frags +
Aubriac.

i use the stock because its old-school and all the old demomen that i grew up watching used to use it and its just so much more aesthetically pleasing

[quote=Aubriac].[/quote]
i use the stock because its old-school and all the old demomen that i grew up watching used to use it and its just so much more aesthetically pleasing
19
#19
1 Frags +
BvPersonally I think it should be banned in it's current state since it is technically a straight upgrade

if you banned anything that was a straight upgrade then there would be no boston basher, gunboats, escape plan, crossbow, ubersaw, etc.

[quote=Bv]
Personally I think it should be banned in it's current state since it is technically a straight upgrade
[/quote]

if you banned anything that was a straight upgrade then there would be no boston basher, gunboats, escape plan, crossbow, ubersaw, etc.
20
#20
-1 Frags +
jrodBvPersonally I think it should be banned in it's current state since it is technically a straight upgrade
if you banned anything that was a straight upgrade then there would be no boston basher, gunboats, escape plan, crossbow, ubersaw, etc.

those are direct upgrades that make the game better (maybe not the xbow). i don't see how the iron bomber improves the game whatsoever

[quote=jrod][quote=Bv]
Personally I think it should be banned in it's current state since it is technically a straight upgrade
[/quote]

if you banned anything that was a straight upgrade then there would be no boston basher, gunboats, escape plan, crossbow, ubersaw, etc.[/quote]
those are direct upgrades that make the game better (maybe not the xbow). i don't see how the iron bomber improves the game whatsoever
21
#21
22 Frags +

yes i agree it should be banned until fixed, also i wouldnt be opposed to the rollers detting a little later. i think #9 has a fair point in that they often just benefit the demo for missing his pipes because the guy has no time to move, though the actual rollers do have cool utility as a stopgab between stickies, making them a nice sidegrade to stock rollers, but having the roller det a bit more in line with stock rollers in actual time would increase the guns skill cieling by lowering the reward for missed pipes. and in response to #19 the argument for those straight upgrades are that they offer new interesting playstyles and increase skill cielings whereas the iron bomber just lowers the skill floor and diminishes actual talent by dumbing down the level of entry for hitting pipes

though this isnt the only thing that deserves to be banned, so many weapons are just unbalanced and make the whitelist uncompetitive (winger, wrap assassin, banners, market gardener, quickies, solemn vow, etc) and i really think more serious and inclusive whitelist discussion needs to be had because people are clearly not happy with these weapons. myself and many people i know are so demotivated by this awful whitelist and makes us less likely to play seasons, like how can i put time into a competitive game when the whitelist just degenrates every season and rewards skill less and less. ive felt for so long i have little control over the whitelist and just have to put up with whatever decision is layed upon me by the whitelist illuminati and i hate to see the whitelist continue in that direction with shit like the solemn vow

yes i agree it should be banned until fixed, also i wouldnt be opposed to the rollers detting a little later. i think #9 has a fair point in that they often just benefit the demo for missing his pipes because the guy has no time to move, though the actual rollers do have cool utility as a stopgab between stickies, making them a nice sidegrade to stock rollers, but having the roller det a bit more in line with stock rollers in actual time would increase the guns skill cieling by lowering the reward for missed pipes. and in response to #19 the argument for those straight upgrades are that they offer new interesting playstyles and increase skill cielings whereas the iron bomber just lowers the skill floor and diminishes actual talent by dumbing down the level of entry for hitting pipes

though this isnt the only thing that deserves to be banned, so many weapons are just unbalanced and make the whitelist uncompetitive (winger, wrap assassin, banners, market gardener, quickies, solemn vow, etc) and i really think more serious and inclusive whitelist discussion needs to be had because people are clearly not happy with these weapons. myself and many people i know are so demotivated by this awful whitelist and makes us less likely to play seasons, like how can i put time into a competitive game when the whitelist just degenrates every season and rewards skill less and less. ive felt for so long i have little control over the whitelist and just have to put up with whatever decision is layed upon me by the whitelist illuminati and i hate to see the whitelist continue in that direction with shit like the solemn vow
22
#22
0 Frags +
BumFreezehttps://user-images.githubusercontent.com/39247293/92310815-d44e2e80-ef7f-11ea-81eb-28149fc9f5ec.png now i understand why i died to pipes that missed so often :Dmaxc232its not broken its part of the physics engine.the physics arent different that was just a theory as to why this shit was so op cos everyone noticed it was un upgrade and tried to find a reason why

iron bomber grenades dummy thicc ngl

[quote=BumFreeze][img]https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/39247293/92310815-d44e2e80-ef7f-11ea-81eb-28149fc9f5ec.png[/img] now i understand why i died to pipes that missed so often :D
[quote=maxc232]its not broken its part of the physics engine.[/quote]
the physics arent different that was just a theory as to why this shit was so op cos everyone noticed it was un upgrade and tried to find a reason why[/quote]
iron bomber grenades dummy thicc ngl
23
#23
13 Frags +

Kisak is not affiliated with Valve. They are a community moderator for the GitHub Issues. Don't just see that the issue is on GitHub, and decide that's good enough. Please email the TF Team and Eric Smith directly with your feedback about this issue and illustrate how important it is to you that this gets fixed. This helps the TF Team see how important an issue it is to people. It is a surprise to many how few people and how few issues actually get reported to them, because of assumptions that the team has already seen some issue because of this or that.

Here are links for your convenience.

https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/contact?contact-person=TF%20Team
https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/contact?contact-person=Eric%20Smith

Kisak is not affiliated with Valve. They are a community moderator for the GitHub Issues. Don't just see that the issue is on GitHub, and decide that's good enough. Please email the TF Team and Eric Smith directly with your feedback about this issue and illustrate how important it is to you that this gets fixed. This helps the TF Team see how important an issue it is to people. It is a surprise to many how few people and how few issues actually get reported to them, because of assumptions that the team has already seen some issue because of this or that.

Here are links for your convenience.

https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/contact?contact-person=TF%20Team
https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/contact?contact-person=Eric%20Smith
24
#24
0 Frags +

I wouldn't be sad to see it go, and wouldn't be angry if it is still around. The main "problem" I have with it is the det time being too quick.

I wouldn't be sad to see it go, and wouldn't be angry if it is still around. The main "problem" I have with it is the det time being too quick.
25
#25
-32 Frags +

how about instead we ban euros from tftv

how about instead we ban euros from tftv
26
#26
7 Frags +

I have created a sourcemod plugin to fix this issue:
https://b4k.co/share/sourcemod/scripting/bak_pipe_hitbox_fix.sp
This plugin also allows setting any custom hitbox size, so if you guys come to the conclusion that demo's primary shouldn't be nerfed you can set the higher IB size for all GLs as well.

I have created a sourcemod plugin to fix this issue:
https://b4k.co/share/sourcemod/scripting/bak_pipe_hitbox_fix.sp
This plugin also allows setting any custom hitbox size, so if you guys come to the conclusion that demo's primary shouldn't be nerfed you can set the higher IB size for all GLs as well.
27
#27
-3 Frags +
mustardoverlordhow about instead we ban euros from tftv

Iron bomber user detected o.0

If the hit boxes actually matched all of the different projectiles that demo could shoot, (instead of having 1 fixed hit box) I think the viability of certain weapons could change and it would be interesting to see what would change

[quote=mustardoverlord]how about instead we ban euros from tftv[/quote]
Iron bomber user detected o.0

If the hit boxes actually matched all of the different projectiles that demo could shoot, (instead of having 1 fixed hit box) I think the viability of certain weapons could change and it would be interesting to see what would change
28
#28
-32 Frags +

if you wanna use iron bomber just use it, if you wanna use stock use stock. If you choose iron bomber i guess you have higher % hitting a pipe, but if you choose stock you get more spam thats it pros/cons of both weapons. I would say 90% ppl are using iron bomber over stock pipes so why would you want to ban it :D we could say stock pipe spam is op lets ban it in etf2l, its the same thing. Who voted "yes" is just someone who has been using stock for years or scout main being mad about getting double piped by iron bomber lol

im sorry but iron bomber is not breaking any tf2 gameplay, ppl are just mad cuz someone can actually aim thats it, also i dont think demoman needs nerf at this point its just another stupid thing how to get "better rules in etf2l or someshit"

also i would like to say - OnLy GoOd CuZ oF iRoN bOmBe -____-

ADDED - IF YOU WANT TO BAN IRON BOMBER PLEASE BAN WINGER BECAUSE ITS OP TO HAVE WINGER IN YOUR HAND AND DODGE EVERY SINGLE ROCKET

if you wanna use iron bomber just use it, if you wanna use stock use stock. If you choose iron bomber i guess you have higher % hitting a pipe, but if you choose stock you get more spam thats it pros/cons of both weapons. I would say 90% ppl are using iron bomber over stock pipes so why would you want to ban it :D we could say stock pipe spam is op lets ban it in etf2l, its the same thing. Who voted "yes" is just someone who has been using stock for years or scout main being mad about getting double piped by iron bomber lol

im sorry but iron bomber is not breaking any tf2 gameplay, ppl are just mad cuz someone can actually aim thats it, also i dont think demoman needs nerf at this point its just another stupid thing how to get "better rules in etf2l or someshit"

also i would like to say - OnLy GoOd CuZ oF iRoN bOmBe -____-

ADDED - IF YOU WANT TO BAN IRON BOMBER PLEASE BAN WINGER BECAUSE ITS OP TO HAVE WINGER IN YOUR HAND AND DODGE EVERY SINGLE ROCKET
29
#29
24 Frags +

You know better than this lukas

You know better than this lukas
30
#30
19 Frags +

I also think people think too simplistically about unlocks, especially the straight upgrade argument. In reality unlocks can either be strong or weak and healthy for the game or unhealthy for the game. The way in which Iron Bomber is strong is stupid in comparison to something like Gunboats or Xbow, don't try to do the literal brainlet tier argument of "we should ban everything that is better than stock:DDD" lol.

I also think people think too simplistically about unlocks, especially the straight upgrade argument. In reality unlocks can either be strong or weak and healthy for the game or unhealthy for the game. The way in which Iron Bomber is strong is stupid in comparison to something like Gunboats or Xbow, don't try to do the literal brainlet tier argument of "we should ban everything that is better than stock:DDD" lol.
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