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Remove Iron Bomber from whitelist
61
#61
-20 Frags +

p.s. would also settle for banning all scout mains from commenting on game balance forever

p.s. would also settle for banning all scout mains from commenting on game balance forever
62
#62
2 Frags +

mustard whipped out the steam messages for this one u know its good

mustard whipped out the steam messages for this one u know its good
63
#63
12 Frags +
mustardoverlordstuff

i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)

[quote=mustardoverlord]stuff[/quote]

i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)
64
#64
-9 Frags +
Makmustardoverlordstuff
i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)

https://i0.wp.com/post.healthline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Crooked-bottom-teeth-1296x728-gallery_slide1.jpg?w=1155

[quote=Mak][quote=mustardoverlord]stuff[/quote]

i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)[/quote]

https://i0.wp.com/post.healthline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Crooked-bottom-teeth-1296x728-gallery_slide1.jpg?w=1155
65
#65
20 Frags +

yep unlocks are definitely what makes eu lose to na, and not you getting carried by banny

yep unlocks are definitely what makes eu lose to na, and not you getting carried by banny
66
#66
13 Frags +

if euros had to play against b4nny slemnish and arekk every day, they would be clutching their iron bomber tighter than ever

if euros had to play against b4nny slemnish and arekk every day, they would be clutching their iron bomber tighter than ever
67
#67
-14 Frags +

also I was talking about when EU had 2 shotgun soldiers for like 4 years longer than anyone else, but if you want to go back to that meta by all means please do

also I was talking about when EU had 2 shotgun soldiers for like 4 years longer than anyone else, but if you want to go back to that meta by all means please do
68
#68
-11 Frags +
mustardoverlordMakmustardoverlordstuff
i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)

https://i0.wp.com/post.healthline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Crooked-bottom-teeth-1296x728-gallery_slide1.jpg?w=1155

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/video/img/upload/2012/11/screen-shot-2012-11-01-at-111832-am/video-featured.png

[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=Mak][quote=mustardoverlord]stuff[/quote]

i used to think u had functioning brain but perhaps now not so much :-)[/quote]

https://i0.wp.com/post.healthline.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Crooked-bottom-teeth-1296x728-gallery_slide1.jpg?w=1155[/quote]

[img]https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/video/img/upload/2012/11/screen-shot-2012-11-01-at-111832-am/video-featured.png[/img]
69
#69
26 Frags +
mustardoverlord

https://i.imgur.com/ui44vEH.png

[quote=mustardoverlord][/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ui44vEH.png[/img]
70
#70
15 Frags +
mustardoverlordstuff

I think after this post we should consider banning burgers from tftv

[quote=mustardoverlord]stuff[/quote]

I think after this post we should consider banning burgers from tftv
71
#71
-1 Frags +

>#60

Best post mustard has made in years

>#60

Best post mustard has made in years
72
#72
17 Frags +

people keep repeating "why not ban other straight upgrades" point as if it hasnt been covered multiple times; items like the gunboats, crossbow, escape plan are healthy for the game competitively because they offer deep and interesting playstyles and raise the skill ceiling of the game. sure, theyre direct upgrades to the stock weapons. why is that a bad thing when them exisisting improves the game and quality of competition? no one is arguing for two shotgun soldiers like mustardoverlord suggests. the iron bomber in its current state makes hitting pipes easier and harder to dodge and also offers a safety net of its rollers damaging whoever they miss. this does the complete opposite to the aforementioned "straight upgrades" and lowers the skill floor, allowing any bot to play demo and hit alot of pipes and completely devalues the ability to actually aim pipes. in a competitive setting where pipes and kills will impact fights, the iron bomber is objectively better and renders the spam offered by stock an unworthy tradeoff. fixes should aim to make them both be equally easy to connect pipes with and have fair and visually representative hitboxes and both have unique rollers options, making them sidegrades. i dont know why people are okay with one being this much better when it dumbs down the game to this degree

people keep repeating "why not ban other straight upgrades" point as if it hasnt been covered multiple times; items like the gunboats, crossbow, escape plan are healthy for the game competitively because they offer deep and interesting playstyles and raise the skill ceiling of the game. sure, theyre direct upgrades to the stock weapons. why is that a bad thing when them exisisting improves the game and quality of competition? no one is arguing for two shotgun soldiers like mustardoverlord suggests. the iron bomber in its current state makes hitting pipes easier and harder to dodge and also offers a safety net of its rollers damaging whoever they miss. this does the complete opposite to the aforementioned "straight upgrades" and lowers the skill floor, allowing any bot to play demo and hit alot of pipes and completely devalues the ability to actually aim pipes. in a competitive setting where pipes and kills will impact fights, the iron bomber is objectively better and renders the spam offered by stock an unworthy tradeoff. fixes should aim to make them both be equally easy to connect pipes with and have fair and visually representative hitboxes and both have unique rollers options, making them sidegrades. i dont know why people are okay with one being this much better when it dumbs down the game to this degree
73
#73
2 Frags +
mustardoverlord1. the weapon is overpowered/gamebreaking
2. the weapon makes the game significantly less fun
3. the weapon is a straight upgrade
4. the weapon doesn't 'add anything to the game'

Agree mostly with your category list and which categories should/shouldn't be banned here but I think the reason being cited for the ban here is that the Iron Bomber is a straight upgrade because of a bug which I think you could argue is a more legitimate reason for banning it.

I'm still not sure it should be banned because imo even though it's a bug, I'm not sure banning the Iron Bomber would improve the game in any significant way, but I wouldn't care hugely if it was.

[quote=mustardoverlord]
1. the weapon is overpowered/gamebreaking
2. the weapon makes the game significantly less fun
3. the weapon is a straight upgrade
4. the weapon doesn't 'add anything to the game'
[/quote]

Agree mostly with your category list and which categories should/shouldn't be banned here but I think the reason being cited for the ban here is that the Iron Bomber is a straight upgrade because of a bug which I think you could argue is a more legitimate reason for banning it.

I'm still not sure it should be banned because imo even though it's a bug, I'm not sure banning the Iron Bomber would improve the game in any significant way, but I wouldn't care hugely if it was.
74
#74
30 Frags +
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkbased

Thanks for making this post, was about to write a lot of angry things :-) made this image just to visualise to people how i'm viewing unlocks. not saying it's objectively correct but I've got 12k hours and have put a lot of thought into it!!! Should also stress the positioning of these unlocks is not down to scientific accuracy before i get people going "umm ackshually gunboats should be moved to da left and to da right", this is just a visual representation.

https://i.imgur.com/ejTy4NM.png

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]based[/quote]

Thanks for making this post, was about to write a lot of angry things :-) made this image just to visualise to people how i'm viewing unlocks. not saying it's objectively correct but I've got 12k hours and have put a lot of thought into it!!! Should also stress the positioning of these unlocks is not down to scientific accuracy before i get people going "umm ackshually gunboats should be moved to da left and to da right", this is just a visual representation.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ejTy4NM.png[/img]
75
#75
-10 Frags +
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkstuff

I don't know when I entered this bizarro world where we went from "iron bomber pipes are slightly easier to hit" to "bro they're literally hitscan, you can't miss, the class is so dumbed down lol"

if they were as dumbed down as you're saying then anyone would be able to just 2 pipe their way into invite, with scouts being totally helpless against a demo. need I remind you that the scout class has a double jump, and that the iron bomber is still a projectile??

it feels like scout mains remember some time where the pipe didn't look like it was gonna hit them and still did (which can also be caused by latency, or be a pipe that was going to hit them whether stock or iron bomber but hit 'earlier' because of the hitbox), and silently stewed until people found an actual gameplay bug that explains the issue. I'm sorry, the fact that literally no one was clamoring for this until the bug was found shows that the weapon was not considered overpowered. if you go with the zesty argument and say you don't like buggy or unpolished things in the game, then sure. but don't try to tell me that the thing that makes a weapon go from balanced to OP in peoples' minds is not a player who's sick at exploiting it, not months of anecdotal evidence, but literally reading a forum thread.

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]stuff[/quote]

I don't know when I entered this bizarro world where we went from "iron bomber pipes are slightly easier to hit" to "bro they're literally hitscan, you can't miss, the class is so dumbed down lol"

if they were as dumbed down as you're saying then anyone would be able to just 2 pipe their way into invite, with scouts being totally helpless against a demo. need I remind you that the scout class has a double jump, and that the iron bomber is still a projectile??

it feels like scout mains remember some time where the pipe didn't look like it was gonna hit them and still did (which can also be caused by latency, or be a pipe that was going to hit them whether stock or iron bomber but hit 'earlier' because of the hitbox), and silently stewed until people found an actual gameplay bug that explains the issue. I'm sorry, the fact that literally no one was clamoring for this until the bug was found shows that the weapon was not considered overpowered. if you go with the zesty argument and say you don't like buggy or unpolished things in the game, then sure. but don't try to tell me that the thing that makes a weapon go from balanced to OP in peoples' minds is not a player who's sick at exploiting it, not months of anecdotal evidence, but literally reading a forum thread.
76
#76
20 Frags +
Makhttps://i.imgur.com/ejTy4NM.png

So ur an unlocks fascist, noted.

[quote=Mak]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ejTy4NM.png[/img][/quote]
So ur an unlocks fascist, noted.
77
#77
-4 Frags +

Nerfing the iron bomber instead of increasing the hit box of the other primaries. Indirectly buffs scout and does that class need another free handout

Nerfing the iron bomber instead of increasing the hit box of the other primaries. Indirectly buffs scout and does that class need another free handout
78
#78
11 Frags +

team fortress

team fortress
79
#79
0 Frags +

california loveeeeeeeeeee

california loveeeeeeeeeee
80
#80
-6 Frags +

unban parachute and cow mangler while youre at it

unban parachute and cow mangler while youre at it
81
#81
42 Frags +

wrap assassin is the most evil item ever to be unbanned
bad enough that people don't care to ban it
annoying enough to make you wanna off yourself when you get critballed from across mid

wrap assassin is the most evil item ever to be unbanned
bad enough that people don't care to ban it
annoying enough to make you wanna off yourself when you get critballed from across mid
82
#82
13 Frags +
mustardoverlordsdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkstuff.

idk theres definitely a reason every demo in every region unanimously switched to using this despite all of the noted stats on it not being that good.
so now that weve found out what that reason is its pretty clear there is a difference and it makes sense to complain about something having double the hitbox for no reason. people havent been crying about it being op as vocally as there wasnt any hard evidence to believe it was (whereas other weapons have their OP stats written out for all to see) but i know a LOT of people suspected there was some hidden stat with it (people still spew this bs about no random spin, the pipe going faster, and different arc or whatever, which arent actually true). just cos we have lived with it so long doesnt mean we should accept it imo. if valve had put "+150% projectile size" on there we never would be having this discussion cos its stupid that the weapon does that.

[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]stuff[/quote]
.[/quote]
idk theres definitely a reason every demo in every region unanimously switched to using this despite all of the noted stats on it not being that good.
so now that weve found out what that reason is its pretty clear there is a difference and it makes sense to complain about something having double the hitbox for no reason. people havent been crying about it being op as vocally as there wasnt any hard evidence to believe it was (whereas other weapons have their OP stats written out for all to see) but i know a LOT of people suspected there was some hidden stat with it (people still spew this bs about no random spin, the pipe going faster, and different arc or whatever, which arent actually true). just cos we have lived with it so long doesnt mean we should accept it imo. if valve had put "+150% projectile size" on there we never would be having this discussion cos its stupid that the weapon does that.
83
#83
-21 Frags +

I've seen a lot of dumb shit, but i just wasn't ready for this one.
You might have so much time to waste it's unbelievable

I've seen a lot of dumb shit, but i just wasn't ready for this one.
You might have so much time to waste it's unbelievable
84
#84
1 Frags +

Being on the topic of banning certain weapon(s), please bring back the season 15 whitelist but with slight changes (e.g. unbanning the cloak and dagger, tomislav & sandvich mainly, maybe l'etragner and your eternal reward.)

https://whitelist.tf/etf2l_6v6_s15

Being on the topic of banning certain weapon(s), please bring back the season 15 whitelist but with slight changes (e.g. unbanning the cloak and dagger, tomislav & sandvich mainly, maybe l'etragner and your eternal reward.)

https://whitelist.tf/etf2l_6v6_s15
85
#85
3 Frags +
BumFreezeidk theres definitely a reason every demo in every region unanimously switched to using this despite all of the noted stats on it not being that good.

this is why it's impossible to talk about this rationally, you're acting like I'm in denial that it's a straight upgrade- I literally made a post explaining why I don't believe in banning weapons just for being an upgrade!

BumFreezeso now that weve found out what that reason is its pretty clear there is a difference and it makes sense to complain about something having double the hitbox for no reason.

wait, so the issue now is lack of intent? like the problem isn't whether ot not the weapon is broken, the problem is whether there's a 'reason' for it to be better? what does that even mean? what if I say "they nerfed demo massively and buffed medic and scout, which unbalanced 6s, so any help the demo class can get is worthwhile"? is that enough of a reason, or does it have to have the valve-intended seal of approval?

BumFreezepeople havent been crying about it being op as vocally as there wasnt any hard evidence to believe it was (whereas other weapons have their OP stats written out for all to see) but i know a LOT of people suspected there was some hidden stat with it (people still spew this bs about no random spin, the pipe going faster, and different arc or whatever, which arent actually true).

again, suspecting there was a hidden stat is not the same as the weapon being OP. OP is short for 'overpowered', and it refers to things that are gamebreaking, uncounterable, unbalanced, etc. just saying the iron bomber is better than stock pipes has nothing to do with any of these things.

BumFreezejust cos we have lived with it so long doesnt mean we should accept it imo.

ok, same with the demo nerf and the med speed buff, let's revert both. matter of fact, I always hear the 'ban crossbow' crowd say 'just because everyone is used to it, doesn't mean we should accept it'. I guess that means they must be correct!

BumFreezeif valve had put "+150% projectile size" on there we never would be having this discussion cos its stupid that the weapon does that.

or maybe we could have a valid discussion about whether or not it's stupid that the weapon does that.

[quote=BumFreeze]
idk theres definitely a reason every demo in every region unanimously switched to using this despite all of the noted stats on it not being that good.
[/quote]

this is why it's impossible to talk about this rationally, you're acting like I'm in denial that it's a straight upgrade- I literally made a post explaining why I don't believe in banning weapons just for being an upgrade!

[quote=BumFreeze]
so now that weve found out what that reason is its pretty clear there is a difference and it makes sense to complain about something having double the hitbox for no reason.[/quote]

wait, so the issue now is lack of intent? like the problem isn't whether ot not the weapon is broken, the problem is whether there's a 'reason' for it to be better? what does that even mean? what if I say "they nerfed demo massively and buffed medic and scout, which unbalanced 6s, so any help the demo class can get is worthwhile"? is that enough of a reason, or does it have to have the valve-intended seal of approval?

[quote=BumFreeze]
people havent been crying about it being op as vocally as there wasnt any hard evidence to believe it was (whereas other weapons have their OP stats written out for all to see) but i know a LOT of people suspected there was some hidden stat with it (people still spew this bs about no random spin, the pipe going faster, and different arc or whatever, which arent actually true).[/quote]

again, suspecting there was a hidden stat is not the same as the weapon being OP. OP is short for 'overpowered', and it refers to things that are gamebreaking, uncounterable, unbalanced, etc. just saying the iron bomber is better than stock pipes has nothing to do with any of these things.

[quote=BumFreeze]
just cos we have lived with it so long doesnt mean we should accept it imo.[/quote]

ok, same with the demo nerf and the med speed buff, let's revert both. matter of fact, I always hear the 'ban crossbow' crowd say 'just because everyone is used to it, doesn't mean we should accept it'. I guess that means they must be correct!

[quote=BumFreeze]
if valve had put "+150% projectile size" on there we never would be having this discussion cos its stupid that the weapon does that.[/quote]

or maybe we could have a valid discussion about whether or not it's stupid that the weapon does that.
86
#86
20 Frags +
sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkthe iron bomber in its current state makes hitting pipes easier and harder to dodge and also offers a safety net of its rollers damaging whoever they miss. this does the complete opposite to the aforementioned "straight upgrades" and lowers the skill floor

You act like stock pipes were perfectly balanced and anything slightly more powerful than them is necessarily a negative impact on the balance of the game. The more consistent rollers do the opposite of lowering the skill floor as you say, because they remove that element of chance that can lead to lucky rollers chasing people around corners, or unlucky ones just bouncing in the wrong direction and not doing any damage at all. Also allows people to do more consistent roller jumps which will sometimes just be denied with stock pipes due to rng.

sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfkallowing any bot to play demo and hit a lot of pipes and completely devalues the ability to actually aim pipes.

That's just retarded honestly. It's not like the iron bomber was added to the game and suddenly everyone was habib. There are still a ton of awful demos and if you couldn't hit pipes before, the iron bomber doesn't just magically allow you to now.

[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]the iron bomber in its current state makes hitting pipes easier and harder to dodge and also offers a safety net of its rollers damaging whoever they miss. this does the complete opposite to the aforementioned "straight upgrades" and lowers the skill floor[/quote]
You act like stock pipes were perfectly balanced and anything slightly more powerful than them is necessarily a negative impact on the balance of the game. The more consistent rollers do the opposite of lowering the skill floor as you say, because they remove that element of chance that can lead to lucky rollers chasing people around corners, or unlucky ones just bouncing in the wrong direction and not doing any damage at all. Also allows people to do more consistent roller jumps which will sometimes just be denied with stock pipes due to rng.
[quote=sdfgjdfgkhklfgdjfk]allowing any bot to play demo and hit a lot of pipes and completely devalues the ability to actually aim pipes.[/quote]
That's just retarded honestly. It's not like the iron bomber was added to the game and suddenly everyone was habib. There are still a ton of awful demos and if you couldn't hit pipes before, the iron bomber doesn't just magically allow you to now.
87
#87
6 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/OBCgxRL.jpg

[url=https://youtu.be/Ue3_1R8lVe4] [img] https://i.imgur.com/OBCgxRL.jpg [/img] [/url]
88
#88
26 Frags +

aren't we at a point where most gameplay issues can be solved by tweaking it with plugins instead of banning?

aren't we at a point where most gameplay issues can be solved by tweaking it with plugins instead of banning?
89
#89
8 Frags +

so a jewish demo main and a turk walk into a bar...

so a jewish demo main and a turk walk into a bar...
90
#90
-16 Frags +

x

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