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any support for a cp_badlands return?
1
#1
0 Frags +

Personally I miss it, maybe it's just nostalgia, but I would love to see badlands back for season 4 of rgl trad 6's

any thoughts?
here's a straw-poll because it makes things more fun

http://www.strawpoll.me/20636051

Personally I miss it, maybe it's just nostalgia, but I would love to see badlands back for season 4 of rgl trad 6's

any thoughts?
here's a straw-poll because it makes things more fun

http://www.strawpoll.me/20636051
2
#2
newbie.tf
-48 Frags +

map sucks

edit: but is better than gully so there's that

https://i.imgur.com/wXfR16k.png

map sucks

edit: but is better than gully so there's that
[img]https://i.imgur.com/wXfR16k.png[/img]
3
#3
17 Frags +

as much as I know some dislike badlands, especially the difficulty in pushing out of last, I think it would be nice to see it back in the map cycle after a few seasons of it missing. It's been interesting to explore new maps like clearcut and villa, but a lot of public opinion has been mixed on how these maps play out and it might even feel refreshing to come back to the map after nearly a year out of the map pool in North America.

as much as I know some dislike badlands, especially the difficulty in pushing out of last, I think it would be nice to see it back in the map cycle after a few seasons of it missing. It's been interesting to explore new maps like clearcut and villa, but a lot of public opinion has been mixed on how these maps play out and it might even feel refreshing to come back to the map after nearly a year out of the map pool in North America.
4
#4
7 Frags +

cp_prolands when

cp_prolands when
5
#5
3 Frags +
umlpstcp_prolands when

I would personally just make the spawn times a bit longer for offense when they have spire capped, or make spire cap a bit faster. This way getting out of last wouldn't be so impossible. I once played a pro version of blands where the last capped slower, but the cheesy 1 second last cap plays were super fun imo.

[quote=umlpst]cp_prolands when[/quote]

I would personally just make the spawn times a bit longer for offense when they have spire capped, or make spire cap a bit faster. This way getting out of last wouldn't be so impossible. I once played a pro version of blands where the last capped slower, but the cheesy 1 second last cap plays were super fun imo.
6
#6
8 Frags +

I don't miss my rockets getting eaten by or getting headglitch shotgunned from the crates on mid. Lol.

Spire is always hype though. I think it could use some tweaks and after it'd be an easy re-introduction. Clean up the ceiling in last, expand some of lobby area and the stairs into bats, and like what owen said above me, change some of the cap rate. The last should reflect the expansive and breathing-room heavy second and mid points.

I don't miss my rockets getting eaten by or getting headglitch shotgunned from the crates on mid. Lol.

Spire is always hype though. I think it could use some tweaks and after it'd be an easy re-introduction. Clean up the ceiling in last, expand some of lobby area and the stairs into bats, and like what owen said above me, change some of the cap rate. The last should reflect the expansive and breathing-room heavy second and mid points.
7
#7
14 Frags +
umlpstcp_prolands when

3 years ago
Burgers smh

[quote=umlpst]cp_prolands when[/quote]

[URL=https://www.teamfortress.tv/41308/cp-prolands]3 years ago[/url]
Burgers smh
8
#8
-10 Frags +

i remember hearing some rando a while ago recommend putting koth_badlands into competitive play, which would remove the problematic lasts but take spire with it - would also give the rotation more koth representation

PotchI don't miss my rockets getting eaten by or getting headglitch shotgunned from the crates on mid.
i remember hearing some rando a while ago recommend putting koth_badlands into competitive play, which would remove the problematic lasts but take spire with it - would also give the rotation more koth representation

[quote=Potch]I don't miss my rockets getting eaten by or getting headglitch shotgunned from the crates on mid.[/quote]
9
#9
2 Frags +

there are so many better maps being created by community members right now that reusing badlands at this point would really just be an insult. the map is outdated, slow, and unfun to watch, cast, and play. would much rather play a new map that is being updated and worked on by someone in the community.

there are so many better maps being created by community members right now that reusing badlands at this point would really just be an insult. the map is outdated, slow, and unfun to watch, cast, and play. would much rather play a new map that is being updated and worked on by someone in the community.
10
#10
6 Frags +
Owenumlpstcp_prolands when
I would personally just make the spawn times a bit longer for offense when they have spire capped, or make spire cap a bit faster. This way getting out of last wouldn't be so impossible. I once played a pro version of blands where the last capped slower, but the cheesy 1 second last cap plays were super fun imo.

As for the longer spire spawn timers for attackers, it was already tried and I received overwhelming feedback that it was too long. Spire cap time could be decreased further but honestly, 6 seconds or lower for capping second makes it too easy to backcap. The issue with the map is that the point is on a giant spire, not that the point takes time to reach.

[quote=Owen][quote=umlpst]cp_prolands when[/quote]

I would personally just make the spawn times a bit longer for offense when they have spire capped, or make spire cap a bit faster. This way getting out of last wouldn't be so impossible. I once played a pro version of blands where the last capped slower, but the cheesy 1 second last cap plays were super fun imo.[/quote]

As for the longer spire spawn timers for attackers, it was already tried and I received overwhelming feedback that it was too long. Spire cap time could be decreased further but honestly, 6 seconds or lower for capping second makes it too easy to backcap. The issue with the map is that the point is on a giant spire, not that the point takes time to reach.
11
#11
-3 Frags +

Lmao badlands is fucking awful. Its only saving grace is spire, and spire is mostly fun just in mge. Remember that rewind match a few years ago between ascent and 7 where they just stood at choke for literally 10+ minutes?

If we really, really have to reintroduce badlands, it needs to be prolands. I never understood why we were using badlands over prolands in the first place.

Owen the cheesy 1 second last cap plays were super fun imo.

Those plays are fun in the same way landing a random crit rocket on 5 players standing behind a corner is fun. Sure, it's satisfying, but you don't deserve, and it makes last that much harder to push out if you have to leave players on guard no matter how close to capped spire is.

Lmao badlands is fucking awful. Its only saving grace is spire, and spire is mostly fun just in mge. Remember that rewind match a few years ago between ascent and 7 where they just stood at choke for literally 10+ minutes?

If we really, really have to reintroduce badlands, it needs to be prolands. I never understood why we were using badlands over prolands in the first place.
[quote=Owen] the cheesy 1 second last cap plays were super fun imo.[/quote]
Those plays are fun in the same way landing a random crit rocket on 5 players standing behind a corner is fun. Sure, it's satisfying, but you don't deserve, and it makes last that much harder to push out if you have to leave players on guard no matter how close to capped spire is.
12
#12
12 Frags +

i think we should add 5 more maps where the mid is flat and open and there are exactly 3 pathways between the mids and second point while also making sure that scout can reach the top of every piece of high ground on the map

just open the doorways into tunnels on last and extend the respawn times for offense pushing last and there u go

i think we should add 5 more maps where the mid is flat and open and there are exactly 3 pathways between the mids and second point while also making sure that scout can reach the top of every piece of high ground on the map

just open the doorways into tunnels on last and extend the respawn times for offense pushing last and there u go
13
#13
0 Frags +

I would rather have blands than any koth or villa, but I'd rather see granary or logjam make a return over blands.

I would rather have blands than any koth or villa, but I'd rather see granary or logjam make a return over blands.
14
#14
13 Frags +

I will agree that trying out new maps is good but as console said it's a pretty mixed bag, villa and clearcut are both really poorly optimized and cause bad FPS lag, along with not playing out that well or being particularly interesting. There may very well be more new maps that are better though, we should definitely continue to have new map cups and test things out. What I will say though is this: instead of having a foregone conclusion that badlands and granary are the most hated and need to be removed, we should give them the same chance as the new maps to be voted in. If xattuu and others are right and the new maps are just better, let them win by their own merit and not by excluding the old maps from the ballot. Prolands fixes some of the issues from the original badlands and should definitely be tried as well. I think we should all be a little more open minded instead of assuming that the other side is completely wrong, there's pros and cons of new maps and old maps.

Personally that I much prefer badlands and granary to clearcut and villa, and I would like to see reckoner tried as well potentially. Also, I don't like this argument that just because a map is being currently developed it should automatically be better, let the quality of the map speak for itself. Just because something is being developed doesn't mean it's in a good state now, in fact, playing maps like villa and clearcut in the league I think has cemented people's opinions of them as bad and if they get updated later to fix current issues people will have the bad taste in their mouth still and be apprehensive to play it again. I think clearcut could be fixed if it was less one-dimensional and the cave you can hide your medic in for sacks was removed/restructured, but those would be pretty big changes to make while it's still in rotation. In my opinion we should just vote it out for a season and let the mapmaker try out some different changes in betas, and then vote it in again if it's better.

Edit: the 30 minute stalemate between 7 and EVL was much more to do with match nerves and high stakes of both teams not wanting to lose (also vaccinator last memes by ckj) than the map inherently being flawed. I can't blame them, I wouldn't want to be knocked out of grand finals due to a back cap, but at the same time if either team had taken more risks it would have been a different game. 1 man sacks and spy plays are not exactly the highest amount of effort/commitment you can put into breaking a stalemates, most teams do 2 man sacks and or uber exchanges now which are more risky and help break stalemates better. I've had some of the most back and forth and exciting tf2 matches of my entire time playing on badlands, yeah it's hard to push last but that's true for both teams and it means if you actually do break it you really deserve it. Also, the meta has developed a lot over the ~13 years of the game, there are so many different possible midfight strategies and ways to push each point. If the lower divs really hate it that much that they don't want to re-add it, I would like to see a vote to add it back for invite only like bagel is this season. We have so many maps that play almost exactly the same and are just variants of cp_scout, having maps with different flows and class balance is good for the game imo.

I will agree that trying out new maps is good but as console said it's a pretty mixed bag, villa and clearcut are both really poorly optimized and cause bad FPS lag, along with not playing out that well or being particularly interesting. There may very well be more new maps that are better though, we should definitely continue to have new map cups and test things out. What I will say though is this: instead of having a foregone conclusion that badlands and granary are the most hated and need to be removed, we should give them the same chance as the new maps to be voted in. If xattuu and others are right and the new maps are just better, let them win by their own merit and not by excluding the old maps from the ballot. Prolands fixes some of the issues from the original badlands and should definitely be tried as well. I think we should all be a little more open minded instead of assuming that the other side is completely wrong, there's pros and cons of new maps and old maps.

Personally that I much prefer badlands and granary to clearcut and villa, and I would like to see reckoner tried as well potentially. Also, I don't like this argument that just because a map is being currently developed it should automatically be better, let the quality of the map speak for itself. Just because something is being developed doesn't mean it's in a good state now, in fact, playing maps like villa and clearcut in the league I think has cemented people's opinions of them as bad and if they get updated later to fix current issues people will have the bad taste in their mouth still and be apprehensive to play it again. I think clearcut could be fixed if it was less one-dimensional and the cave you can hide your medic in for sacks was removed/restructured, but those would be pretty big changes to make while it's still in rotation. In my opinion we should just vote it out for a season and let the mapmaker try out some different changes in betas, and then vote it in again if it's better.

Edit: the 30 minute stalemate between 7 and EVL was much more to do with match nerves and high stakes of both teams not wanting to lose (also vaccinator last memes by ckj) than the map inherently being flawed. I can't blame them, I wouldn't want to be knocked out of grand finals due to a back cap, but at the same time if either team had taken more risks it would have been a different game. 1 man sacks and spy plays are not exactly the highest amount of effort/commitment you can put into breaking a stalemates, most teams do 2 man sacks and or uber exchanges now which are more risky and help break stalemates better. I've had some of the most back and forth and exciting tf2 matches of my entire time playing on badlands, yeah it's hard to push last but that's true for both teams and it means if you actually do break it you really deserve it. Also, the meta has developed a lot over the ~13 years of the game, there are so many different possible midfight strategies and ways to push each point. If the lower divs really hate it that much that they don't want to re-add it, I would like to see a vote to add it back for invite only like bagel is this season. We have so many maps that play almost exactly the same and are just variants of cp_scout, having maps with different flows and class balance is good for the game imo.
15
#15
-10 Frags +

idk i think villa is pretty good definitely better than blands/granary/metalworks.

clearcut is kinda eh. Koth is a plus but optimization is bad and taking fights is kind of awkward when you don't have the point because of all the high ground the defenders have

in the end i think you can switch out the 2 maps for each other without much consequence as long as we maintain the core of snake/gully/process/sunshine/product

idk i think villa is pretty good definitely better than blands/granary/metalworks.

clearcut is kinda eh. Koth is a plus but optimization is bad and taking fights is kind of awkward when you don't have the point because of all the high ground the defenders have

in the end i think you can switch out the 2 maps for each other without much consequence as long as we maintain the core of snake/gully/process/sunshine/product
16
#16
8 Frags +

giving people the chance to play maps they already know compared to new maps is gonna lead to results that heavily skew towards changing as little as possible

giving people the chance to play maps they already know compared to new maps is gonna lead to results that heavily skew towards changing as little as possible
17
#17
6 Frags +

I will probably get downvoted for saying this. But I'm just thinking out loud. But I remember back in the golden days of tf2 - around 10-12 years ago, Badlands wasn't nearly as hated. Yeah pushing out of last was hard but that was something that separated the good teams from the great teams. I remember working with my team(s) on that part of the map and it was difficult but it could be done.

Obviously the game has changed a ton since that long ago. But maybe that's the point... I feel like with how fast the game is now with scouts+medic, the crossbow being op, and other meta changes... that it's less the map and more the way the game has evolved that is the problem.

Not saying there isn't anything wrong with the map though. Just some perspective.

I will probably get downvoted for saying this. But I'm just thinking out loud. But I remember back in the golden days of tf2 - around 10-12 years ago, Badlands wasn't nearly as hated. Yeah pushing out of last was hard but that was something that separated the good teams from the great teams. I remember working with my team(s) on that part of the map and it was difficult but it could be done.

Obviously the game has changed a ton since that long ago. But maybe that's the point... I feel like with how fast the game is now with scouts+medic, the crossbow being op, and other meta changes... that it's less the map and more the way the game has evolved that is the problem.

Not saying there isn't anything wrong with the map though. Just some perspective.
18
#18
5 Frags +

villa was pretty bad
clearcut was fun but the cave needs to be changed and the map NEEDS to be optimized
granary must be banished to the shadow realm
bring us prolands
reckoner is really cool and id like to try it in a season (same with logjam)

i also want yukon back

villa was pretty bad
clearcut was fun but the cave needs to be changed and the map NEEDS to be optimized
granary must be banished to the shadow realm
bring us prolands
reckoner is really cool and id like to try it in a season (same with logjam)

i also want yukon back
19
#19
0 Frags +

really

really
20
#20
1 Frags +

what if we brought gran back

what if we brought gran back
21
#21
15 Frags +

do u ever notice how none of the people who have influence in rgl post in these threads

do u ever notice how none of the people who have influence in rgl post in these threads
22
#22
3 Frags +

bring cp_granary back >:(

bring cp_granary back >:(
23
#23
-1 Frags +
Gritomai remember hearing some rando a while ago recommend putting koth_badlands into competitive play, which would remove the problematic lasts but take spire with it - would also give the rotation more koth representation

This would not work, too chokey + too much high ground advantage to be on point

If you want a cool koth map go see koth_cannery

[quote=Gritoma]i remember hearing some rando a while ago recommend putting koth_badlands into competitive play, which would remove the problematic lasts but take spire with it - would also give the rotation more koth representation
[/quote]

This would not work, too chokey + too much high ground advantage to be on point

If you want a cool koth map go see koth_cannery
24
#24
2 Frags +

i feel like the problem for NA here is that the structure your leagues have demands you guys to have a bigger mappool than both EU and AU which only have 7 instead of 8 and even here people complain a good bit about the "awkward" map we have each season (and granary) and by having more maps it will just lead to even more of that

i feel like the problem for NA here is that the structure your leagues have demands you guys to have a bigger mappool than both EU and AU which only have 7 instead of 8 and even here people complain a good bit about the "awkward" map we have each season (and granary) and by having more maps it will just lead to even more of that
25
#25
2 Frags +

at least bring back granary please

also bagel was introduced this season to only the invite division, but since invite uses pick ban it's pointless and never actually got played (i think it got played in 2 basically meaningless matches, and never scrimmed outside of those couple days)

invite players have a more positive view of badlands than other people so maybe that could be the invite only map. or maybe granary. people would actually pick them sometimes at least

at least bring back granary please

also bagel was introduced this season to only the invite division, but since invite uses pick ban it's pointless and never actually got played (i think it got played in 2 basically meaningless matches, and never scrimmed outside of those couple days)

invite players have a more positive view of badlands than other people so maybe that could be the invite only map. or maybe granary. people would actually pick them sometimes at least
26
#26
-2 Frags +

Granary is a good enough map it's kinda like metalworks where it's okay, not bad but okay. Not sure why it got removed tbh. Badlands is bad and I would prefer it stays out

Granary is a good enough map it's kinda like metalworks where it's okay, not bad but okay. Not sure why it got removed tbh. Badlands is bad and I would prefer it stays out
27
#27
4 Frags +

I actually liked Badlands, wouldn't hate it back, however personally I'd rather see both Logjam and Reckoner. I've casted some good games on both outside of NA, and I'm not really sure why they haven't been run here in recent years. I really disliked Villa, and I wasn't huge on clearcut, although with shack reworked and optimization, I'm sure I'd feel differently (also if I didn't choke in one of my matches).

Also...

MenachemLmao Remember that rewind match a few years ago between ascent and 7 bearodactylEdit: the 30 minute stalemate between 7 and EVL

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/000/183/Cupcake_Dog.jpg

I actually liked Badlands, wouldn't hate it back, however personally I'd rather see both Logjam and Reckoner. I've casted some good games on both outside of NA, and I'm not really sure why they haven't been run here in recent years. I really disliked Villa, and I wasn't huge on clearcut, although with shack reworked and optimization, I'm sure I'd feel differently (also if I didn't choke in one of my matches).

Also...

[quote=Menachem]Lmao Remember that rewind match a few years ago between ascent and 7 [/quote]

[quote=bearodactyl]Edit: the 30 minute stalemate between 7 and EVL[/quote]

[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/000/183/Cupcake_Dog.jpg[/img]
28
#28
6 Frags +

Post from 3 years ago, nothings changed.

Tino_ The map itself is not that bad, it is one of the better maps in the game TBH especially considering its age. The map was and is a staple map of Tf2 because of that, it was the best map to play in the early days of 6s, the issues that I have with it now is how the 6s meta has changed and how the way we play the map has changed because of that.
You get 2 things that happen on blands, one team gets fucked on mid and loses the med then the other team rolls into last and round is over, there is no fighting over 2nd, no chance to defend you just lose if the other team is not retarded. The 2nd option is one team wins mid and the other team falls back to second with the med still up. And then you get into a 20 min stalemate because pushing into second from mid on even ubers is the biggest pain in the ass because of how chokey the choke is, you have no room to move around or set things up, so you just throw tagg bombs in until you get something. The issue with the map is that it is too small yet too big at the same time. You have loads of small chokey areas like lobby, choke, house and the entire last point, but to get to those areas you have to traverse large areas of more or less useless land and because of that you do not have a combat zone that spreads over an entire map, you have 4 or 5 small zones of combat with lots of nothing in between them. The map does not flow well with how we play Tf2 today. It may not be the worst map we have in rotation right now but it is no where near the best. Backcaps are a thing that people have to learn how to deal with and have nothing to do with how a map should be seen.
Post from 3 years ago, nothings changed.
[quote=Tino_ ]The map itself is not that bad, it is one of the better maps in the game TBH especially considering its age. The map was and is a staple map of Tf2 because of that, it was the best map to play in the early days of 6s, the issues that I have with it now is how the 6s meta has changed and how the way we play the map has changed because of that.
You get 2 things that happen on blands, one team gets fucked on mid and loses the med then the other team rolls into last and round is over, there is no fighting over 2nd, no chance to defend you just lose if the other team is not retarded. The 2nd option is one team wins mid and the other team falls back to second with the med still up. And then you get into a 20 min stalemate because pushing into second from mid on even ubers is the biggest pain in the ass because of how chokey the choke is, you have no room to move around or set things up, so you just throw tagg bombs in until you get something. The issue with the map is that it is too small yet too big at the same time. You have loads of small chokey areas like lobby, choke, house and the entire last point, but to get to those areas you have to traverse large areas of more or less useless land and because of that you do not have a combat zone that spreads over an entire map, you have 4 or 5 small zones of combat with lots of nothing in between them. The map does not flow well with how we play Tf2 today. It may not be the worst map we have in rotation right now but it is no where near the best. Backcaps are a thing that people have to learn how to deal with and have nothing to do with how a map should be seen.[/quote]
29
#29
-9 Frags +

Granary: Yes
Badlands: No

Badlands doesn't work with scout speed medics and fast airblast minicrit pyros. Still i would rather have Badlands than Villa. Villa is Propaganda tier DOGSHIT.

Granary: Yes
Badlands: No

Badlands doesn't work with scout speed medics and fast airblast minicrit pyros. Still i would rather have Badlands than Villa. Villa is Propaganda tier DOGSHIT.
30
#30
-7 Frags +

coalplant

coalplant
1 2
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