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RGL Division Restructure
61
#61
20 Frags +

the timing of the div-1 and div-2 halving was bad, but the rationale behind it was very plausible. glancing at the scrims results for most of the teams in each division, i do agree with daffodil that there was a disparity between the div-1 and div-2 teams.

Though, some of the teams in div-2 do not make sense compared to the other teams in main. I looked at a few (e.g. trollface esports and first yarn team ever) and compared it with some of the "top tier" main teams from personal opinion (e.g. rodney and the stangers, my gaming estrogen, yeremy).

I'm not sure how some of these teams ended up in div-2 while the others ended up in main. You can argue experience, though a team like yarn legacy (w/ playmo on demo) has been losing to main teams that i wouldn't rank as high, while teams like rodney can clearly contest in div-2 yet choose not to scrim against div-2/higher level teams? yet teams like yeremy are actively scrimming div-2 teams, are contesting evenly or losing close, and have players with invite exp and are also off-classing on (seemingly?) their worst classes.

you can only base so much off of scrim results if the teams seemingly only choose to scrim teams within the division that they want to play, and in the case of some of these teams, it's clear that some of them were placed in the wrong division and the ruling seems to be a bit biased. I understand that the higher main teams should be able to beat/trade scrims with lower div-2 teams but there's teams in both divs mentioned that clearly should be swapped.

from what i know, some teams affected were forced into their divs (not sure what the exact rationale was). though from personal exp, sword art on9 was given the chance to play in advanced or main in s2 at the discretion of the admins. even though we were capable of playing in low-mid advanced, im not sure what was difference from that ruling to some of the rulings for this season

not to mention that one of the teams has an admins and/or opinions from admins playing in the affected divisions were taken into consideration. I do believe there is some bias and inconsistent ruling on some of the placements but then again, i couldn't be an admin cause i had a ban on rgl (EVEN tho daf asked me to apply).

also i have some bias in this since i'm friends with some of the people involved, though i try to keep this nerd essay as unbiased as possible

tl;dr: inconsistent rulings on team placements from personal opinion for the main/div-2 divisions, I have a feeling admins in said divisions personally had a take into the rulings for said teams

the timing of the div-1 and div-2 halving was bad, but the rationale behind it was very plausible. glancing at the scrims results for most of the teams in each division, i do agree with daffodil that there was a disparity between the div-1 and div-2 teams.

Though, some of the teams in div-2 do not make sense compared to the other teams in main. I looked at a few (e.g. trollface esports and first yarn team ever) and compared it with some of the "top tier" main teams from personal opinion (e.g. rodney and the stangers, my gaming estrogen, yeremy).

I'm not sure how some of these teams ended up in div-2 while the others ended up in main. You can argue experience, though a team like yarn legacy (w/ playmo on demo) has been losing to main teams that i wouldn't rank as high, while teams like rodney can clearly contest in div-2 yet choose not to scrim against div-2/higher level teams? yet teams like yeremy are actively scrimming div-2 teams, are contesting evenly or losing close, and have players with invite exp and are also off-classing on (seemingly?) their worst classes.

you can only base so much off of scrim results if the teams seemingly only choose to scrim teams within the division that they want to play, and in the case of some of these teams, it's clear that some of them were placed in the wrong division and the ruling seems to be a bit biased. I understand that the higher main teams should be able to beat/trade scrims with lower div-2 teams but there's teams in both divs mentioned that clearly should be swapped.

from what i know, some teams affected were forced into their divs (not sure what the exact rationale was). though from personal exp, sword art on9 was given the chance to play in advanced or main in s2 at the discretion of the admins. even though we were capable of playing in low-mid advanced, im not sure what was difference from that ruling to some of the rulings for this season

not to mention that one of the teams has an admins and/or opinions from admins playing in the affected divisions were taken into consideration. I do believe there is some bias and inconsistent ruling on some of the placements but then again, i couldn't be an admin cause i had a ban on rgl (EVEN tho daf asked me to apply).

also i have some bias in this since i'm friends with some of the people involved, though i try to keep this nerd essay as unbiased as possible

[b]tl;dr: inconsistent rulings on team placements from personal opinion for the main/div-2 divisions, I have a feeling admins in said divisions personally had a take into the rulings for said teams[/b]
62
#62
37 Frags +

give botmode admin

give botmode admin
63
#63
26 Frags +
playmodid I really just piss boxcar off that fucking bad just for beating her in a single night of scrims.1jayynot to mention that one of the teams has an admins and/or opinions from admins playing in the affected divisions were taken into consideration. I do believe there is some bias and inconsistent ruling on some of the placements but then again, i couldn't be an admin cause i had a ban on rgl (EVEN tho daf asked me to apply).

How TFTV thinks RGL works

https://i.imgur.com/MVyzPqV.png

Just because someone has a bias doesn't mean that this was some giant conspiracy by admins to have easier matches, and we don't even know which admins had the most sway over this discussion. Although it would be easier to discount this idea if there had been a more open dialogue from the admins before the change.

[quote=playmo]did I really just piss boxcar off that fucking bad just for beating her in a single night of scrims.[/quote]
[quote=1jayy]
not to mention that one of the teams has an admins and/or opinions from admins playing in the affected divisions were taken into consideration. I do believe there is some bias and inconsistent ruling on some of the placements but then again, i couldn't be an admin cause i had a ban on rgl (EVEN tho daf asked me to apply).
[/quote]
How TFTV thinks RGL works
[img]https://i.imgur.com/MVyzPqV.png[/img]
Just because someone has a bias doesn't mean that this was some giant conspiracy by admins to have easier matches, and we don't even know which admins had the most sway over this discussion. Although it would be easier to discount this idea if there had been a more open dialogue from the admins before the change.
64
#64
25 Frags +

everything in rgl by definition is based on admin bias because they don't poll people before making any of these decisions

whether the bias is "I want the league to be like x because it's good for my team" or "I want the league to be like x because it's how I always thought tf2 ought to be" is honestly irrelevant to me, when a few random admins have too much power things will naturally turn out in ways that the majority of the community don't like

everything in rgl by definition is based on admin bias because they don't poll people before making any of these decisions

whether the bias is "I want the league to be like x because it's good for my team" or "I want the league to be like x because it's how I always thought tf2 ought to be" is honestly irrelevant to me, when a few random admins have too much power things will naturally turn out in ways that the majority of the community don't like
65
#65
-17 Frags +

That new young gunna gunna goes stooooooooooooooooooooopid

That new young gunna gunna goes stooooooooooooooooooooopid
66
#66
-1 Frags +
fenomenoThat new young gunna gunna goes stooooooooooooooooooooopid

that album cover is the ugliest shit ive ever seen, its like uzi if he was 12 and watched steven universe

[quote=fenomeno]That new young gunna gunna goes stooooooooooooooooooooopid[/quote]
that album cover is the ugliest shit ive ever seen, its like uzi if he was 12 and watched steven universe
67
#67
-2 Frags +

advanced 2 - electric boogaloo

advanced 2 - electric boogaloo
68
#68
13 Frags +

Ok why can't we just make polls for massive changes and see if the community agrees to it? That way you could at least gauge if it's a decent idea (ex: if it gets over 40% votes clearly it has potential and should be considered since almost half the community is interested)

Ok why can't we just make polls for massive changes and see if the community agrees to it? That way you could at least gauge if it's a decent idea (ex: if it gets over 40% votes clearly it has potential and should be considered since almost half the community is interested)
69
#69
7 Frags +
alfaOk why can't we just make polls for massive changes and see if the community agrees to it? That way you could at least gauge if it's a decent idea (ex: if it gets over 40% votes clearly it has potential and should be considered since almost half the community is interested)

because daffodil believes its his job to save the community from itself and to "right the wrongs" of esea

see: forced invite moveups, forced changes to map pool, etc.

[quote=alfa]Ok why can't we just make polls for massive changes and see if the community agrees to it? That way you could at least gauge if it's a decent idea (ex: if it gets over 40% votes clearly it has potential and should be considered since almost half the community is interested)[/quote]

because daffodil believes its his job to save the community from itself and to "right the wrongs" of esea

see: forced invite moveups, forced changes to map pool, etc.
70
#70
3 Frags +

Is the concept of "Provisional Tiers" not a thing in NA?

Is the concept of "Provisional Tiers" not a thing in NA?
71
#71
5 Frags +

id host a 3 month long tourney/league with different divs if it meant these virgin admins can stop power tripping and making tf2 trash

id host a 3 month long tourney/league with different divs if it meant these virgin admins can stop power tripping and making tf2 trash
72
#72
15 Frags +

well if advanced is so good why isnt there an advanced 2?

well if advanced is so good why isnt there an advanced 2?
73
#73
15 Frags +
mustardoverlordsee: forced invite moveups, forced changes to map pool, etc.

To be fair it's pathetic that two of the three RGL Invite seasons won't even have eight teams. I remember tri saying Invite would straight up not exist if they didn't have enough teams. Then again the whole lack of guidelines about division promotions / demotions and the fact that you have to make a new roster every season certainly doesn't help.

Map pool changes are a whole different animal.

Gritomawell if advanced is so good why isnt there an advanced 2?

I think we should rename Div.2 to Unadvanced.

[quote=mustardoverlord]see: forced invite moveups, forced changes to map pool, etc.[/quote]

To be fair it's pathetic that two of the three RGL Invite seasons won't even have eight teams. I remember tri saying Invite would straight up not exist if they didn't have enough teams. Then again the whole lack of guidelines about division promotions / demotions and the fact that you have to make a new roster every season certainly doesn't help.

Map pool changes are a whole different animal.

[quote=Gritoma]well if advanced is so good why isnt there an advanced 2?[/quote]

I think we should rename Div.2 to Unadvanced.
74
#74
12 Frags +

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to be an RGL admin. The bias is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp on the wants and needs of the community, most ways to do the exact opposite will go over a typical person’s head. There's also sigafoo’s personal outlook, which is deftly woven into his ideals- his personal philosophy draws heavily from maining engineer. The simps understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these changes, to realize that they're not just normal changes- they say something deep about RGL. As a consequence people who dislike RGL admins truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the lack of community input on “areas of interest,” which itself is a cryptic reference to area denial done by The Engineer’s epic Sentry Gun. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as sigafoo’s genius wit unfolds itself on their computer monitors. What fools.. how I pity them.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to be an RGL admin. The bias is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp on the wants and needs of the community, most ways to do the exact opposite will go over a typical person’s head. There's also sigafoo’s personal outlook, which is deftly woven into his ideals- his personal philosophy draws heavily from maining engineer. The simps understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these changes, to realize that they're not just normal changes- they say something deep about RGL. As a consequence people who dislike RGL admins truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the lack of community input on “areas of interest,” which itself is a cryptic reference to area denial done by The Engineer’s epic Sentry Gun. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as sigafoo’s genius wit unfolds itself on their computer monitors. What fools.. how I pity them.
75
#75
15 Frags +
Tery_To be fair it's pathetic that two of the three RGL Invite seasons won't even have eight teams. I remember tri saying Invite would straight up not exist if they didn't have enough teams. Then again the whole lack of guidelines about division promotions / demotions and the fact that you have to make a new roster every season certainly doesn't help.

to be clear, I have never had issues with forced team moveups (or at least asking really really persistently) when invite literally needs more teams. problem is, that's not what happened this offseason; my team (rip) was force moved up when they still thought there would literally be 10-11 teams, simply because we were outperforming dunk masters in scrims.

[quote=Tery_]
To be fair it's pathetic that two of the three RGL Invite seasons won't even have eight teams. I remember tri saying Invite would straight up not exist if they didn't have enough teams. Then again the whole lack of guidelines about division promotions / demotions and the fact that you have to make a new roster every season certainly doesn't help.
[/quote]

to be clear, I have never had issues with forced team moveups (or at least asking really really persistently) when invite literally needs more teams. problem is, that's not what happened this offseason; my team (rip) was force moved up when they still thought there would literally be 10-11 teams, simply because we were outperforming dunk masters in scrims.
76
#76
7 Frags +

Why does sigafoo not post these threads? I've always wondered this.

Why does sigafoo not post these threads? I've always wondered this.
77
#77
6 Frags +

I've always wondered why not even the head admin is the one breaking the news...

I've always wondered why not even the head admin is the one breaking the news...
78
#78
14 Frags +

smh RGL Admins. That wasn't very poggers of u.

smh RGL Admins. That wasn't very poggers of u.
79
#79
6 Frags +
wolsneWhy does sigafoo not post these threads? I've always wondered this.

hes not currently an admin and has no say in any of the changes relevant to this thread

edit: oops you meant actually post the thread itself not posting IN the thread

answer is still technically the same though, boxcar is an admin and is involved in changes made, and sigafoo isnt

[quote=wolsne]Why does sigafoo not post these threads? I've always wondered this.[/quote]
hes not currently an admin and has no say in any of the changes relevant to this thread


edit: oops you meant actually post the thread itself not posting IN the thread

answer is still technically the same though, boxcar is an admin and is involved in changes made, and sigafoo isnt
80
#80
8 Frags +

Hello I would like to apply to be a RGL admin. I may be a gay retard but I'm way less of a gay retard than Boxcar and I have much better judgement than Daffodil. I will just ask myself what would Tri do. Sigafoo please consider me.

Hello I would like to apply to be a RGL admin. I may be a gay retard but I'm way less of a gay retard than Boxcar and I have much better judgement than Daffodil. I will just ask myself what would Tri do. Sigafoo please consider me.
81
#81
33 Frags +

https://puu.sh/FNRhi/a9c054ef7c.png

[img]https://puu.sh/FNRhi/a9c054ef7c.png[/img]
82
#82
8 Frags +

tfw an admin can get mad they lost to you in scrims and kill your team by moving it up a div

tfw an admin can get mad they lost to you in scrims and kill your team by moving it up a div
83
#83
21 Frags +

✧・゚: *✧・゚:* dont let admins inside the divisions decide who moves up/down *:・゚✧*:・゚✧

✧・゚: *✧・゚:* dont let admins inside the divisions decide who moves up/down *:・゚✧*:・゚✧
84
#84
2 Frags +
dbk✧・゚: *✧・゚:* dont let admins inside the divisions decide who moves up/down *:・゚✧*:・゚✧

unpopular opinion maybe but wouldnt they be most in touch with what is healthiest for the division. like theres no way invite/advanced players could admin IM/open because the skill difference is so huge they have no idea who belongs in those divisions

[quote=dbk]✧・゚: *✧・゚:* dont let admins inside the divisions decide who moves up/down *:・゚✧*:・゚✧[/quote]
unpopular opinion maybe but wouldnt they be most in touch with what is healthiest for the division. like theres no way invite/advanced players could admin IM/open because the skill difference is so huge they have no idea who belongs in those divisions
85
#85
0 Frags +

boxcar murders tf scene, I can see the captions now... typical

boxcar murders tf scene, I can see the captions now... typical
86
#86
15 Frags +
Nathandbk✧・゚: *✧・゚:* dont let admins inside the divisions decide who moves up/down *:・゚✧*:・゚✧unpopular opinion maybe but wouldnt they be most in touch with what is healthiest for the division. like theres no way invite/advanced players could admin IM/open because the skill difference is so huge they have no idea who belongs in those divisions

it's called a conflict if interest, and it will always trump knowledge of the players, assuming your league wants to maximise integrity. Not to say that boxcar is trying to fuck over the division so her team wins or something, but she COULD, and people don't want that possibility open for any admin in any div. Invite could probably be treated a little differently but ideally things are easy enough to explain in your league that cre8 could do it, in some horrific post apocalypse scenario.

[quote=Nathan][quote=dbk]✧・゚: *✧・゚:* dont let admins inside the divisions decide who moves up/down *:・゚✧*:・゚✧[/quote]
unpopular opinion maybe but wouldnt they be most in touch with what is healthiest for the division. like theres no way invite/advanced players could admin IM/open because the skill difference is so huge they have no idea who belongs in those divisions[/quote]
it's called a conflict if interest, and it will always trump knowledge of the players, assuming your league wants to maximise integrity. Not to say that boxcar is trying to fuck over the division so her team wins or something, but she COULD, and people don't want that possibility open for any admin in any div. Invite could probably be treated a little differently but ideally things are easy enough to explain in your league that cre8 could do it, in some horrific post apocalypse scenario.
87
#87
20 Frags +

there's a reason tri never played invite once he was an admin^

there's a reason tri never played invite once he was an admin^
88
#88
-1 Frags +

make me admin under my leadership rgl will only have 1 division and see froyo lose to a mid im team that runs full time third degree pyro adding a whole new layer of excitement to the league

make me admin under my leadership rgl will only have 1 division and see froyo lose to a mid im team that runs full time third degree pyro adding a whole new layer of excitement to the league
89
#89
10 Frags +
bearodactylthere's a reason tri never played invite once he was an admin^

Killing and kalkin as well.

[quote=bearodactyl]there's a reason tri never played invite once he was an admin^[/quote]


Killing and kalkin as well.
90
#90
9 Frags +
Tino_bearodactylthere's a reason tri never played invite once he was an admin^
Killing and kalkin as well.

This is not universally true and should not be seen that way. Many many years ago I ran the TF scene as head admin of our leagues for several seasons. My team played in the same division each season and we never had problems. In a lot of ways, actively playing in the division was extremely helpful when making decisions like map selections and new league rules from season to season. If any decision was to be made that directly involved my team, it would be made by the other league admins and we always posted the reasons for transparency.

In this RGL scenario, the teams being moved up or down should be based on several factors and I can only hope the admins did their homework on each decision. I checked the RGL forums, the steam group and TFTV and found nothing about the decisions and why.
If I was the admin in charge, I would send my rationale to each team leader after a decision. Possibly even post all the decisions on the league website and the rationale for all to see why they were moved up or down.

Show Content
Example: TeamName (Based off recent scrim results this past month, they have an incomplete roster at the moment and have inconsistent scrim results against teams in higher divisions. Overall team experience is on the lower side and we decided to move them to Main Division.)

It might seem like work, but agreeing to be an admin means you sign on for stuff like this. Show the players in your league/division that you are going the extra mile on decisions. Don't wait for a shit storm on TFTV before you legitimize reasons for your actions as an admin. Make the shit public to prove your thinking and reasoning behind everything. I would almost guarantee that you instantly see less posts on this website from random people bashing the league and its admins over and over.

[quote=Tino_][quote=bearodactyl]there's a reason tri never played invite once he was an admin^[/quote]


Killing and kalkin as well.[/quote]

This is not universally true and should not be seen that way. Many many years ago I ran the TF scene as head admin of our leagues for several seasons. My team played in the same division each season and we never had problems. In a lot of ways, actively playing in the division was extremely helpful when making decisions like map selections and new league rules from season to season. If any decision was to be made that directly involved my team, it would be made by the other league admins and we always posted the reasons for transparency.

In this RGL scenario, the teams being moved up or down should be based on several factors and I can only hope the admins did their homework on each decision. I checked the RGL forums, the steam group and TFTV and found nothing about the decisions and why.
If I was the admin in charge, I would send my rationale to each team leader after a decision. Possibly even post all the decisions on the league website and the rationale for all to see why they were moved up or down.
[spoiler][b]Example:[/b] TeamName (Based off recent scrim results this past month, they have an incomplete roster at the moment and have inconsistent scrim results against teams in higher divisions. Overall team experience is on the lower side and we decided to move them to Main Division.)[/spoiler]

It might seem like work, but agreeing to be an admin means you sign on for stuff like this. Show the players in your league/division that you are going the extra mile on decisions. Don't wait for a shit storm on TFTV before you legitimize reasons for your actions as an admin. Make the shit public to prove your thinking and reasoning behind everything. I would almost guarantee that you instantly see less posts on this website from random people bashing the league and its admins over and over.
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