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Thoughts on wallbugging?
1
#1
0 Frags +

People are saying they should be banned, thoughts?

Examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/SolidJoyousAsteriskPogChamp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9egTEhsqrOk

Arguments for not banning it:

It's like ctapping and edgebugging, and involves tradeoffs while raising the skill ceiling.

Arguments against:

It's an exploit and it's hard to check for/counter

People are saying they should be banned, thoughts?

Examples:
https://clips.twitch.tv/SolidJoyousAsteriskPogChamp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9egTEhsqrOk

Arguments for not banning it:

It's like ctapping and edgebugging, and involves tradeoffs while raising the skill ceiling.

Arguments against:

It's an exploit and it's hard to check for/counter
2
#2
-32 Frags +

yes its autistic end thread

yes its autistic end thread
3
#3
-1 Frags +

No, it adds another layer of depth to the game, and it's pretty easy to counter if you learn which spots to look for.

Ragor"Map Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map maker" - per the ESEA TF2 rules

'original intention of the map maker' is a bit ambiguous, I guess inquire with the map makers to determine if it's intended

But it's technically already banned.

No, it adds another layer of depth to the game, and it's pretty easy to counter if you learn which spots to look for.

[quote=Ragor]"Map Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map maker" - per the [url=https://play.esea.net/index.php?s=content&d=league_rules_TF2]ESEA TF2 rules[/url]

'original intention of the map maker' is a bit ambiguous, I guess inquire with the map makers to determine if it's intended[/quote]

But it's technically already banned.
4
#4
22 Frags +

kaptain's clip is sick that shouldn't be banned its just like an edgebug or something, doing it to negate fall damage on the fly like that is super hard and rewards being skilled at rocket jumping

hiding way above a choke point in the skybox and being able to drop down and force a med at any time however seems pretty broken to me

I asked tri after my match a week or so ago and iirc he said he didn't know but looking at the esea website I see this....

ESEAMap Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map makerESEAExploits will be judged on a case by case basis. Ignorance will NOT be a valid excuse for using an exploit, whether it be known or not. If you think something is possibly an exploit, or you are unsure as to whether or not it is, don't do it!

https://play.esea.net/index.php?s=content&d=league_rules_tf2

edit: laz did this a few times in my match and it was pretty dumb to play against like even if u know to check it the soldiers in the skybox above choke and ur not just gonna sit there and get triple piped while ur trying to shoot him down for 20 dmg per shot cause hes so high up, plus if the soldier times it right its basically like a perfect bomb except its silent and u can drop down at the exact time they come through and land on the med which imo is pretty dumb https://clips.twitch.tv/SolidJoyousAsteriskPogChamp (in the op as well)

kaptain's clip is sick that shouldn't be banned its just like an edgebug or something, doing it to negate fall damage on the fly like that is super hard and rewards being skilled at rocket jumping

hiding way above a choke point in the skybox and being able to drop down and force a med at any time however seems pretty broken to me

I asked tri after my match a week or so ago and iirc he said he didn't know but looking at the esea website I see this....
[quote=ESEA]Map Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map maker[/quote]
[quote=ESEA]Exploits will be judged on a case by case basis. Ignorance will NOT be a valid excuse for using an exploit, whether it be known or not. If you think something is possibly an exploit, or you are unsure as to whether or not it is, don't do it![/quote]
https://play.esea.net/index.php?s=content&d=league_rules_tf2

edit: laz did this a few times in my match and it was pretty dumb to play against like even if u know to check it the soldiers in the skybox above choke and ur not just gonna sit there and get triple piped while ur trying to shoot him down for 20 dmg per shot cause hes so high up, plus if the soldier times it right its basically like a perfect bomb except its silent and u can drop down at the exact time they come through and land on the med which imo is pretty dumb https://clips.twitch.tv/SolidJoyousAsteriskPogChamp (in the op as well)
5
#5
-24 Frags +

airstrafing and rocket jumping are also exploits, we should ban those as well

airstrafing and rocket jumping are also exploits, we should ban those as well
6
#6
107 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/kZ5rVo4.png

[img]https://i.imgur.com/kZ5rVo4.png[/img]
7
#7
1 Frags +

kaptain is a savant

kaptain is a savant
8
#8
-4 Frags +

Bro it's so easy to beat like just look up lmao

Bro it's so easy to beat like just look up lmao
9
#9
13 Frags +

There are a lot more than you may realize

shameless plug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o50bA8wLTjw

my brain says they should be banned but it's fun for me :<

There are a lot more than you may realize

shameless plug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o50bA8wLTjw

my brain says they should be banned but it's fun for me :<
10
#10
31 Frags +

i think using it to avoid fall damage is ok. takes skill/practice and is more or less the same as an edgebug. using it to stay in the skybox above doors should be banned. yeah yeah "just look up lol" but pushing is already hard as it is. checking for stickies/regular hiding spots, avoiding spam, and adding this in is just more shit to force terrible ubers/drops on syncs.

i think using it to avoid fall damage is ok. takes skill/practice and is more or less the same as an edgebug. using it to stay in the skybox above doors should be banned. yeah yeah "just look up lol" but pushing is already hard as it is. checking for stickies/regular hiding spots, avoiding spam, and adding this in is just more shit to force terrible ubers/drops on syncs.
11
#11
10 Frags +

When is a wallbug deemed "too high"? There is not a clear distinction and is going to be completely subjective. This is going to be something the community is going to have to 100% ban or 100% allow.

When is a wallbug deemed "too high"? There is not a clear distinction and is going to be completely subjective. This is going to be something the community is going to have to 100% ban or 100% allow.
12
#12
19 Frags +
hooliWhen is a wallbug deemed "too high"? There is not a clear distinction and is going to be completely subjective. This is going to be something the community is going to have to 100% ban or 100% allow.

no idea where this 'too high' idea came from but imo if you're stuck in the wall hiding there that should not be allowed (agree with marm)

if you use it to avoid fall damage it's fine, you're not really using a 'map exploit' per se to hide in the specific spot, you just happened to wallbug wherever and save yourself

[quote=hooli]When is a wallbug deemed "too high"? There is not a clear distinction and is going to be completely subjective. This is going to be something the community is going to have to 100% ban or 100% allow.[/quote]
no idea where this 'too high' idea came from but imo if you're stuck in the wall hiding there that should not be allowed (agree with marm)

if you use it to avoid fall damage it's fine, you're not really using a 'map exploit' per se to hide in the specific spot, you just happened to wallbug wherever and save yourself
13
#13
14 Frags +
vladairstrafing and rocket jumping are also exploits, we should ban those as well

people always say this but they are intentionally implemented features, that the game is balanced for and good maps are designed around. I've never heard of a map designer intentionally making things wallbuggable.

hooliWhen is a wallbug deemed "too high"? There is not a clear distinction and is going to be completely subjective. This is going to be something the community is going to have to 100% ban or 100% allow.

It would be pretty hard to 100% ban considering how easy it is to accidentally wallbug. But I don't see why you couldn't only go after blatant abuses with some rule about "intentionally waiting for x seconds" and/or "standing still on the skybox" or something along those lines.

[quote=vlad]airstrafing and rocket jumping are also exploits, we should ban those as well[/quote]
people always say this but they are intentionally implemented features, that the game is balanced for and good maps are designed around. I've never heard of a map designer intentionally making things wallbuggable.[quote=hooli]When is a wallbug deemed "too high"? There is not a clear distinction and is going to be completely subjective. This is going to be something the community is going to have to 100% ban or 100% allow.[/quote]
It would be pretty hard to 100% ban considering how easy it is to accidentally wallbug. But I don't see why you couldn't only go after blatant abuses with some rule about "intentionally waiting for x seconds" and/or "standing still on the skybox" or something along those lines.
14
#14
6 Frags +

are wallbugs banned in etf2l? because if they are that's like 90% of my forces and drops down the drain

are wallbugs banned in etf2l? because if they are that's like 90% of my forces and drops down the drain
15
#15
11 Frags +

Only allowing it when the intention is to negate fall damage seems reasonable

Only allowing it when the intention is to negate fall damage seems reasonable
16
#16
12 Frags +

Why is this suddenly an issue now? Sollys have been using geometry clips like this for close to 10 years now and it's one of those things you just look for on most maps.

Why is this suddenly an issue now? Sollys have been using geometry clips like this for close to 10 years now and it's one of those things you just look for on most maps.
17
#17
8 Frags +

It's such a non-issue, the reasons to ban it seem really damn weak imo.

It's such a non-issue, the reasons to ban it seem really damn weak imo.
18
#18
-3 Frags +
JarateKingvladairstrafing and rocket jumping are also exploits, we should ban those as wellpeople always say this but they are intentionally implemented features, that the game is balanced for and good maps are designed around.

they were exploits in older games

[quote=JarateKing][quote=vlad]airstrafing and rocket jumping are also exploits, we should ban those as well[/quote]
people always say this but they are intentionally implemented features, that the game is balanced for and good maps are designed around. [/quote]
they were exploits in older games
19
#19
2 Frags +
Tino_Why is this suddenly an issue now? Sollys have been using geometry clips like this for close to 10 years now and it's one of those things you just look for on most maps.

because a lot of the older hiding spots weren't literal bugs, spots like the silo on old granary were intentionally clipped the way they were, then changed later
i dont see how anyone can think a soldier hiding on a spot where they aren't using any actual intentional clipping is at all fair or makes for a better game
but yea just make every single combo player have to memorize 10+ wallbugs on all the different maps sounds like good gameplay to me

[quote=Tino_]Why is this suddenly an issue now? Sollys have been using geometry clips like this for close to 10 years now and it's one of those things you just look for on most maps.[/quote]
because a lot of the older hiding spots weren't literal bugs, spots like the silo on old granary were intentionally clipped the way they were, then changed later
i dont see how anyone can think a soldier hiding on a spot where they aren't using any actual intentional clipping is at all fair or makes for a better game
but yea just make every single combo player have to memorize 10+ wallbugs on all the different maps sounds like good gameplay to me
20
#20
-5 Frags +

The silos were 100% not intended considering you can void our your FOV when on top of them.

But even assuming that all previous clips were intentional, I don't see any difference between those and using a clipbrush clip. If anything the clipbrush ones are actually worse to use because you have to lock your view and directional input to make them work.

Yeah sure it sucks to get dropped or forced by it, but once it happens to you it should not catch you out again. If it does that's on you, not the clip.

The silos were 100% not intended considering you can void our your FOV when on top of them.

But even assuming that all previous clips were intentional, I don't see any difference between those and using a clipbrush clip. If anything the clipbrush ones are actually worse to use because you have to lock your view and directional input to make them work.

Yeah sure it sucks to get dropped or forced by it, but once it happens to you it should not catch you out again. If it does that's on you, not the clip.
21
#21
1 Frags +

nvm i was wrong

nvm i was wrong
22
#22
6 Frags +

It's not a map bug, it's a game engine bug, plus while the map maker can fix pixel walks you can't really fix all wallbug spots (unless you make playerclips that slope slightly away from the wall potentially? not sure on that"

It's not a map bug, it's a game engine bug, plus while the map maker can fix pixel walks you can't really fix all wallbug spots (unless you make playerclips that slope slightly away from the wall potentially? not sure on that"
23
#23
1 Frags +

fun gimmick that rarely serves a great deal of purpose. i can't see it being abused for long on any map/in any situation without becoming very predictable. worst thing would be idiot pug memers wasting time trying to do it.

fun gimmick that rarely serves a great deal of purpose. i can't see it being abused for long on any map/in any situation without becoming very predictable. worst thing would be idiot pug memers wasting time trying to do it.
24
#24
32 Frags +

as many may know, i am very pro-wallbug, so i figured id compile some of my thoughts here in post-form so im not just ranting about it on stream. there seems to be three main arguments that people are using against wallbugs:
~~NERD ESSAY BELOW~~

1. not intended by the map maker

Show Content
this ties in with the following rule on the ESEA rule page:

"Map Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map maker"

while ESEA has the right to act however they see fit in regards to this rule, the argument itself is ambiguous and instantly breaks down when you consider any of the multitude of glitched hiding spots in any given 6s map that people use freely. nobody can argue with a straight face that the broken clipped spot in the skybox of gully second, or the vents above badlands last that literally let you see outside the bounds of the map are intentionally placed there by the map maker. if you advocate for the banning of wallbug users as per this ESEA rule, then you must also advocate for the banning of the players that use these type of unintended glitched spots. this idea of what's "intentional" and what isn't is stupid and very logically inconsistent.

2. wallbugging is an "exploit" and you're "abusing the engine"

Show Content
without even going into the amount of "engine exploits" that have gone on to vastly improve and add depth to well-respected games (see: melee), there are also "engine exploits" currently in-use by tf2 players all the time: speedshots and ctaps. is anyone about to rage because i ctap speedshot into a medic, accumulating more speed faster than i would have been able to otherwise, and dropped them? just calling wallbugs an engine exploit doesn't actually prove to anyone that they should be banned.

3. negative impact on gameplay

Show Content
i think the first two arguments are really dumb and are barely even worth discussing. what is worth discussing, though, is the effect on gameplay. this is where things get slightly more subjective, but i truly believe everyone is waaaaaaaaaay over-exaggerating how broken wallbugs are:

wallbugs are hard to do consistently. if you are spotted in a wallbug, you are almost completely useless. most useful wallbug spots are easily seen by a scout who has to look up to check for traps anyway

here's some of the common arguments (that i've actually heard!!) as to why wallbugs would ruin the game:

takes advantage of people not in-the-know (that don't know to check the spots)
literally the exact same argument can be made for any hiding spot

you can deny an entire chokepoint (e.g. denying the flank as they push in)
plenty of things can deny a chokepoint, for example: sticky traps, hiding near said choke point, etc.

you'll eat spam trying to kill a wallbugger/they're hard to kill
most times someone wallbugging will be doing so away from their combo (it doesn't make any sense to wallbug above a choke that your combo is already watching). if this for some reason actually is the case, you can simply rotate, as you would if there were a bunch of stickies on the choke you're trying to push. also, in 99% of scenarios, someone in a wallbug spot will have to do two rocket jumps to get there, meaning they will be 200 or less, meaning they will be extremely easy to kill once spotted.

there's more but this post is already long enough so i'll leave it at that for now.

sorry about the nerd essay but its something i care about, tl;dr:

  • if mapmakers' intentions really matter then ban a bunch of hiding spots
  • ctaps/speedshots are engine exploits too and nobody gives a fuck about them
  • adding a difficult-to-master skill-based mechanic to an already disadvantaged class in the current meta serves to add another layer of depth to the game (and thats a good thing)
as many may know, i am very pro-wallbug, so i figured id compile some of my thoughts here in post-form so im not just ranting about it on stream. there seems to be three main arguments that people are using against wallbugs:
[b]~~NERD ESSAY BELOW~~
[/b]
1. not intended by the map maker

[spoiler]this ties in with the following rule on the ESEA rule page:

"Map Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map maker"

while ESEA has the right to act however they see fit in regards to this rule, the argument itself is ambiguous and instantly breaks down when you consider any of the multitude of glitched hiding spots in any given 6s map that people use freely. nobody can argue with a straight face that the broken clipped spot in the skybox of gully second, or the vents above badlands last that literally let you see outside the bounds of the map are intentionally placed there by the map maker. if you advocate for the banning of wallbug users as per this ESEA rule, then you must also advocate for the banning of the players that use these type of unintended glitched spots. this idea of what's "intentional" and what isn't is stupid and very logically inconsistent.[/spoiler]


2. wallbugging is an "exploit" and you're "abusing the engine"
[spoiler]without even going into the amount of "engine exploits" that have gone on to vastly improve and add depth to well-respected games (see: melee), there are also "engine exploits" currently in-use by tf2 players all the time: speedshots and ctaps. is anyone about to rage because i ctap speedshot into a medic, accumulating more speed faster than i would have been able to otherwise, and dropped them? just calling wallbugs an engine exploit doesn't actually prove to anyone that they should be banned.
[/spoiler]

3. negative impact on gameplay

[spoiler]i think the first two arguments are really dumb and are barely even worth discussing. what is worth discussing, though, is the effect on gameplay. this is where things get slightly more subjective, but i truly believe everyone is waaaaaaaaaay over-exaggerating how broken wallbugs are:

[h][b]wallbugs are hard to do consistently. if you are spotted in a wallbug, you are almost completely useless. most useful wallbug spots are easily seen by a scout who has to look up to check for traps anyway[/b][/h]

here's some of the common arguments (that i've actually heard!!) as to why wallbugs would ruin the game:

[i]takes advantage of people not in-the-know (that don't know to check the spots)[/i]
literally the exact same argument can be made for any hiding spot

[i]you can deny an entire chokepoint (e.g. denying the flank as they push in)[/i]
plenty of things can deny a chokepoint, for example: sticky traps, hiding near said choke point, etc.

[i]you'll eat spam trying to kill a wallbugger/they're hard to kill[/i]
most times someone wallbugging will be doing so away from their combo (it doesn't make any sense to wallbug above a choke that your combo is already watching). if this for some reason actually is the case, you can simply rotate, as you would if there were a bunch of stickies on the choke you're trying to push. also, in 99% of scenarios, someone in a wallbug spot will have to do two rocket jumps to get there, meaning they will be 200 or less, meaning they will be extremely easy to kill once spotted.

there's more but this post is already long enough so i'll leave it at that for now.
[/spoiler]

sorry about the nerd essay but its something i care about, tl;dr:
[list]
[*] if mapmakers' intentions really matter then ban a bunch of hiding spots
[*] ctaps/speedshots are engine exploits too and nobody gives a fuck about them
[*] adding a difficult-to-master skill-based mechanic to an already disadvantaged class in the current meta serves to add another layer of depth to the game (and thats a good thing)
[/list]
25
#25
40 Frags +
laz~~NERD ESSAY BELOW~~

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/827023500804100096/PIsM9XuE_400x400.jpg

[quote=laz][b]~~NERD ESSAY BELOW~~[/b]
[/quote]

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/827023500804100096/PIsM9XuE_400x400.jpg[/img]
26
#26
17 Frags +

I think comparing wallbugs to ctaps, edgebugs and advanced rocket jumping with speedshots and things like this is very dishonest. Wallbugging is honestly one of the easiest movement exploits in this game with one of the biggest impacts. They turn every slanted wall (which are invisible some times) in this game into a possible hiding spot as high up as you can go and all you have to do is look a bit left and hold w and a.

I also don't really agree with the whole absolutist view on exploit hiding spots on maps. Hasn't this community always made compromises on keeping the game going forward but keeping it fun as well? Idk, I think these neat little hiding places add something fun for people paying attention, but wallbugs just make pushing a living nightmare everywhere. I mean, if it means that in order to get rid of wallbugs we'd ban places like those hiding spots on gully mid and 2nd I guess I'd be for it but it's not necessary to do that, since it's just absolutist rhetoric.

I think comparing wallbugs to ctaps, edgebugs and advanced rocket jumping with speedshots and things like this is very dishonest. Wallbugging is honestly one of the easiest movement exploits in this game with one of the biggest impacts. They turn every slanted wall (which are invisible some times) in this game into a possible hiding spot as high up as you can go and all you have to do is look a bit left and hold w and a.

I also don't really agree with the whole absolutist view on exploit hiding spots on maps. Hasn't this community always made compromises on keeping the game going forward but keeping it fun as well? Idk, I think these neat little hiding places add something fun for people paying attention, but wallbugs just make pushing a living nightmare everywhere. I mean, if it means that in order to get rid of wallbugs we'd ban places like those hiding spots on gully mid and 2nd I guess I'd be for it but it's not necessary to do that, since it's just absolutist rhetoric.
27
#27
2 Frags +

https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulUninterestedSardineCoolCat

https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulUninterestedSardineCoolCat
28
#28
-4 Frags +

wallbugs as hiding spots should be banned (by making admins review a specific play), but be allowed as a fall damage mitigation.

lazplenty of things can deny a chokepoint, for example: sticky traps, hiding near said choke point, etc.

Yes, and adding more to the list isn't needed to fluidify the game.

wallbugs as hiding spots should be banned (by making admins review a specific play), but be allowed as a fall damage mitigation.

[quote=laz]plenty of things can deny a chokepoint, for example: sticky traps, hiding near said choke point, etc.
[/quote]
Yes, and adding more to the list isn't needed to fluidify the game.
29
#29
1 Frags +

yes, floating in the skybox on an invisible wall is 100% the same thing as a ctap or speedshot!!

yes, floating in the skybox on an invisible wall is 100% the same thing as a ctap or speedshot!!
30
#30
55 Frags +

Okay I gotta be honest, calling wall-bugging a skill based mechanic is a big stretch. Half the skill of it is simply knowing where the bug can be used. Speedshotting requires impeccable timing with your rocket to pull off, along with Ctapping. Both give advantages while legitimately being harder to do and requiring a degree skill and there is progression to how good you can get with each mechanic.

You can literally teach anyone who has really basic rocketjumping ability how to do a wall-bug, you just need to know where to do it. It's not skillful nor is it a movement mechanic that adds layers of depth to the class. Floating on invisible walls is also not even close to the same thing as hiding on a physical prop because there is absolutely zero physical indicator you could be there or should be there.

It just adds nothing to the game but a tool for people to get easy forces or kills in a manner that is not conducive to competitive play simply because of how random it is. Which walls are we supposed to check? Are we supposed to go into a map editor to find where these spots exist or just kinda aimlessly jump against them until we find one? Again "hiding spots" are different because there is a visual indicator that someone could be there, and it makes logical sense in the game world. (edit: I was corrected a bit on the nature of finding these spots but I do think this is still overall applicable)

Now personally I don't think it would've had much of an impact on the OVERALL result of our match against you since you guys were the better team (it definitely affected a push or two though), but going forward I don't think it should be allowed personally.

Show Content
Also as a side-note it's really egregious to say that somehow it's no big deal because in actuality the floating soldier is really easy to kill. That's simply not true, any invite team with sense would simply pounce on that scout wasting time shooting the floating soldier and kill him and get the force. You see teams like Froyo do this all the time even when there isn't a soldier floating in the sky. The scout is taking time to clear traps for his team? Jump on his head and kill him. The push is now stuffed.

https://youtu.be/o50bA8wLTjw

Okay I gotta be honest, calling wall-bugging a skill based mechanic is a big stretch. Half the skill of it is simply knowing where the bug can be used. Speedshotting requires impeccable timing with your rocket to pull off, along with Ctapping. Both give advantages while legitimately being harder to do and requiring a degree skill and there is progression to how good you can get with each mechanic.

You can literally teach anyone who has really basic rocketjumping ability how to do a wall-bug, you just need to know where to do it. It's not skillful nor is it a movement mechanic that adds layers of depth to the class. Floating on invisible walls is also not even close to the same thing as hiding on a physical prop because there is absolutely zero physical indicator you could be there or should be there.

It just adds nothing to the game but a tool for people to get easy forces or kills in a manner that is not conducive to competitive play simply because of how random it is. Which walls are we supposed to check? Are we supposed to go into a map editor to find where these spots exist or just kinda aimlessly jump against them until we find one? Again "hiding spots" are different because there is a visual indicator that someone could be there, and it makes logical sense in the game world. [i](edit: I was corrected a bit on the nature of finding these spots but I do think this is still overall applicable)[/i]

Now personally I don't think it would've had much of an impact on the OVERALL result of our match against you since you guys were the better team (it definitely affected a push or two though), but going forward I don't think it should be allowed personally.

[spoiler]Also as a side-note it's really egregious to say that somehow it's no big deal because in actuality the floating soldier is really easy to kill. That's simply not true, any invite team with sense would simply pounce on that scout wasting time shooting the floating soldier and kill him and get the force. You see teams like Froyo do this all the time even when there isn't a soldier floating in the sky. The scout is taking time to clear traps for his team? Jump on his head and kill him. The push is now stuffed.[/spoiler]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/o50bA8wLTjw[/youtube]
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