| Account Details | |
|---|---|
| SteamID64 | 76561197992998578 |
| SteamID3 | [U:1:32732850] |
| SteamID32 | STEAM_0:0:16366425 |
| Country | United States |
| Signed Up | December 27, 2014 |
| Last Posted | March 14, 2019 at 4:15 PM |
| Posts | 75 (0 per day) |
| Game Settings | |
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| In-game Sensitivity | 1.25 |
| Windows Sensitivity | 7 |
| Raw Input | |
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1600 |
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1920x1080 |
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144hz |
| Hardware Peripherals | |
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| Mouse | Logitech G Pro |
| Keyboard | Topre Type Heaven |
| Mousepad | Steelseries Qck+ |
| Headphones | Sennheiser HD600 |
| Monitor | Asus VG248QE |
yightthat stream title is ufcked up LMAO
yo u good lol
whatever happens please keep via
literally the most fast-paced and fun to watch/play map in the rotation
having only 1 koth map in the pool isnt actually a problem (but adding more quality koth maps would be cool)
Pete
lmao dude, please don't try to act like you're a little innocent angel that I'm being mean to. you came into my stream chat and called me retarded while i was (level-headedly) talking about wallbugs with other stream viewers (everyone please check my latest vod if you don't believe me). you started being rude out of nowhere, so I was rude back, and then you make a comment that literally contributes nothing to the conversation like "idk why you bold highlighted one of the worst points you made in your entire nerd essay, like yelling is going to make it right or something" as if that's not backhanded and snarky at all. give me a break bro, have the discussion like a rational human or stop posting.
i dont know how you tallied those spots, but going through that video, literally over 2/3 of them are near some choke that can potentially be stickied. just because the spot isn't directly above doesn't mean it isn't easy to check in the same motion as checking for stickies.
PeteYour argument doesn't even begin to account for the fact that players don't check for stickies every time they run through a doorway. If a demo is dead, or it's called that sticks are det, or someone sees the trap being set somewhere else, they aren't going to check a doorway for stickies.
what you don't understand is that if wallbugs are accepted, combo scouts will start doing this. i'm not trying to say that there will be 0 extra effort on the part of the combo scout to make sure to check above chokes, i'm saying that they check above chokes already most of the time because of stickies already, so it's not a big deal.
PeteBut also I don't think you understand that players don't check for sticks by staring up at the sky. Find some combo scout POVs and show me the times they just w through a choke looking straight up vertically, not looking at the spam coming in ever. Maybe I've just been playing the class wrong for the last 20 seasons.
you're strawmanning my argument, i never said scouts nowadays look straight up vertically while running through chokes not looking at spam. i'm saying scouts normally look up for stickies through chokes, and it's not hard to take an extra millisecond to direct your eyes towards the sky while doing so.
this is starting to become a shit-flinging contest, so i'm gonna stop posting unless someone else brings up something worth talking about. i've made my position and reasons for not banning wallbugs pretty clear at this point i think.
Paddiestuff
here's a few spots: https://imgur.com/a/kd7cS5n
i would say these all look like you're floating in the air, but a lot of them are debatable because you're still close to a wall. however, i think up top on gully 2nd where you literally can float in the ceiling (this is not a wallbug fyi), and the one on sunshine last where you legit look like you're floating are perfect examples. i dont get how someone can be okay with these spots and not wallbugs.
i think the rest of what you said is pretty fair, although i dont think it matters what order you clear stickies/wallbuggers; if you know he's there, you can just clear stickies and if he falls down on you, you can back up back through the choke and one/two shot him with little effort.
barring the dumb arguments about "map glitching" and "map maker intention", it honestly just boils down to opinion on whether you think its broken enough to be worth banning, which i really do not. i also think roamer is a bit of an underpowered role and giving him a slightly bigger toolset would only improve the metagame and make it more balanced.
sorry for the long post again, but there's no other way to respond to everyone
PaddieOkay I gotta be honest, calling wall-bugging a skill based mechanic is a big stretch. Half the skill of it is simply knowing where the bug can be used. Speedshotting requires impeccable timing with your rocket to pull off, along with Ctapping. Both give advantages while legitimately being harder to do and requiring a degree skill and there is progression to how good you can get with each mechanic.
speedshotting isn't that hard, even for newer players, and is honestly comparable to wallbugs as far as reliability and skill required go. there is most definitely a progression of skill when it comes to wallbugging.
PaddieFloating on invisible walls is also not even close to the same thing as hiding on a physical prop because there is absolutely zero physical indicator you could be there or should be there..
there are wallbugs that you can do on actual physical walls and there are hiding spots that basically make you look like you're floating in the air. im not sure what you're trying to get at here.
PaddieIt just adds nothing to the game but a tool for people to get easy forces or kills in a manner that is not conducive to competitive play simply because of how random it is. Which walls are we supposed to check? Are we supposed to go into a map editor to find where these spots exist or just kinda aimlessly jump against them until we find one? Again "hiding spots" are different because there is a visual indicator that someone could be there, and it makes logical sense in the game world. (edit: I was corrected a bit on the nature of finding these spots but I do think this is still overall applicable)
many hiding spots have 0 visual indicators. 95% of wallbugs can be identified by just looking up when going through a choke. you're blowing the practicality of wallbugs way out of proportion.
PaddieAlso as a side-note it's really egregious to say that somehow it's no big deal because in actuality the floating soldier is really easy to kill. That's simply not true, any invite team with sense would simply pounce on that scout wasting time shooting the floating soldier and kill him and get the force. You see teams like Froyo do this all the time even when there isn't a soldier floating in the sky. The scout is taking time to clear traps for his team? Jump on his head and kill him. The push is now stuffed.
this is a decent point, but is honestly not how it works out in practice. as someone who has used wallbugs in a competitive setting a lot, i can say for certain that i've never been spotted in a wallbug and then went on to do something useful and not feed. the only way that people will understand this point is to actually play against wallbuggers. i could easily go through each possible scenario and show how a team would deal with it, but i dont want to spam this thread any more than i already am. if you happened to believe me in that a spotted wallbugger is useless, it then just becomes a job of spotting him, which is quite easy (peek the choke and look up, have your flank peek, etc.)
Jynxiiyes, floating in the skybox on an invisible wall is 100% the same thing as a ctap or speedshot!!
reading comprehension
sage_snip
there are strategies to mitigate the use of wallbugs. making all clip brushes orthogonal is a big one, and depending on how creative the mapmaker gets there are a bunch of other possibilities.
Petesnip
i bolded that section because i wrote a nerd essay that most people probably wouldn't read. if they took one thing from that section, i wanted it to be that. don't read too much into it bud.
you seem very confused about how wallbugs would work in-game, so you can start by watching this video that already was posted earlier on the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o50bA8wLTjw. you might notice that a majority of the useful wallbug spots are on a player clipping brush and not an actual wall, meaning you would in fact not be able to jump off of it.
if you can't mentally register that there is literally a player floating in the air above you while checking for sticks, the problem might be you, not the wallbugger.
as many may know, i am very pro-wallbug, so i figured id compile some of my thoughts here in post-form so im not just ranting about it on stream. there seems to be three main arguments that people are using against wallbugs:
~~NERD ESSAY BELOW~~
1. not intended by the map maker
"Map Exploits - It is illegal to use a map glitch to ones advantage when that was not the original intention of the map maker"
while ESEA has the right to act however they see fit in regards to this rule, the argument itself is ambiguous and instantly breaks down when you consider any of the multitude of glitched hiding spots in any given 6s map that people use freely. nobody can argue with a straight face that the broken clipped spot in the skybox of gully second, or the vents above badlands last that literally let you see outside the bounds of the map are intentionally placed there by the map maker. if you advocate for the banning of wallbug users as per this ESEA rule, then you must also advocate for the banning of the players that use these type of unintended glitched spots. this idea of what's "intentional" and what isn't is stupid and very logically inconsistent.
2. wallbugging is an "exploit" and you're "abusing the engine"
3. negative impact on gameplay
wallbugs are hard to do consistently. if you are spotted in a wallbug, you are almost completely useless. most useful wallbug spots are easily seen by a scout who has to look up to check for traps anyway
here's some of the common arguments (that i've actually heard!!) as to why wallbugs would ruin the game:
takes advantage of people not in-the-know (that don't know to check the spots)
literally the exact same argument can be made for any hiding spot
you can deny an entire chokepoint (e.g. denying the flank as they push in)
plenty of things can deny a chokepoint, for example: sticky traps, hiding near said choke point, etc.
you'll eat spam trying to kill a wallbugger/they're hard to kill
most times someone wallbugging will be doing so away from their combo (it doesn't make any sense to wallbug above a choke that your combo is already watching). if this for some reason actually is the case, you can simply rotate, as you would if there were a bunch of stickies on the choke you're trying to push. also, in 99% of scenarios, someone in a wallbug spot will have to do two rocket jumps to get there, meaning they will be 200 or less, meaning they will be extremely easy to kill once spotted.
there's more but this post is already long enough so i'll leave it at that for now.
sorry about the nerd essay but its something i care about, tl;dr:
- if mapmakers' intentions really matter then ban a bunch of hiding spots
- ctaps/speedshots are engine exploits too and nobody gives a fuck about them
- adding a difficult-to-master skill-based mechanic to an already disadvantaged class in the current meta serves to add another layer of depth to the game (and thats a good thing)
unprecedented levels of synergy
Hellbentthis is really interesting. func_brushes are mainly used in jump maps to make walls where stickies bounce off, but arent used for that anymore since they are really buggy (caused A LOT of wallbugs). Perhaps them being at an angle fixes that and makes them even better than world brushes/func_detail? They would have to be on playerclip though, else stickies will just bounce off the wall.
I know jump_carrot does this and the walls are more difficult to wallbug on than others, but u can still wallbug some. Maybe it's at specific angles? Confusing
i was curious so i did a bunch of tests and basically nothing about it makes sense. i copied a bunch of 45° func_brush walls and placed them everywhere and about 3 out of over 20 prevented wallbugs consistently, while the others were just as buggy as a normal wall. variations in angle and position seem to just have a randomizer effect with a small chance that it'll work and a big chance that it wont. best case scenario is that someone could try putting their func_brush player clip in their map, and move it around in small increments of position/angle until it stops wallbugs, but that seems extremely tedious and far-fetched.
tl;dr dont bother with all of this stuff, making as many of the player clip brushes on snake (and other maps if any other mapmakers are reading this) orthogonal as possible will prevent exploitation in 95% of cases
pls dont fix my strats :]
EDIT: possible wallbug fix below (IGNORE IT IS VERY INCONSISTENT):
it seems like any brush that is tied to a func_brush entity resists wallbugs. i dont necessarily know what func_brush is intended for, but it looks like, for all intents and purposes (and with the default settings), it functions as a wall. what's even better is that if you tie a clip brush to the func_brush entity, it seems to resist wallbugs as well. i made a little video to show what i mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ociy8T7nEs
if ur a source/hammer/jumping god lmk what u think. i feel like all of the oddly-angled walls and clip brushes in every sixes map can be fixed this way.
carried me in ugc gold steel 6s four years ago