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[ETF2L] The Ugliest Side of Competitive TF2
1
#1
0 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXxDPB-EStI
Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXxDPB-EStI
Thoughts?
2
#2
85 Frags +
The Ugliest Side of Competitive TF2 Ugliest Side of Competitive TF2 is ETF2L banning unlocks on favor of prem player feedback

I mean personally i would have gone with all the racism, flame and pedophilia but whatever baits your clicks bro.

[quote=The Ugliest Side of Competitive TF2] Ugliest Side of Competitive TF2 is ETF2L banning unlocks on favor of prem player feedback [/quote]

I mean personally i would have gone with all the racism, flame and pedophilia but whatever baits your clicks bro.
3
#3
34 Frags +

the loch n load shouldnt be banned because it breaks engineer sentries, it should be banned because its gay and for noobs

okay i just watched this whole video. maybe im a dumb burger but what was the point of the video? he doesn't like that lower div players aren't represented in votes over the whitelist and map pool, but by his own words, multiple weapons that are banned are stupid weapons anyway

the loch n load shouldnt be banned because it breaks engineer sentries, it should be banned because its gay and for noobs

okay i just watched this whole video. maybe im a dumb burger but what was the point of the video? he doesn't like that lower div players aren't represented in votes over the whitelist and map pool, but by his own words, multiple weapons that are banned are stupid weapons anyway
4
#4
36 Frags +

soyest video ive ever seen

soyest video ive ever seen
5
#5
EssentialsTF
25 Frags +

TL;DR: Video is argued in bad faith, diminishing any valid points made. We do need to look at EU's approach to weapon bans, whilst acknowledging that the Whitelist will always be a compromise between the huge range of opinions on balance in competitive play.

As someone who has been involved in whitelist discussions before, during, and after the Global Whitelist this video is a pretty poor and biased view of ETF2L's approach to weapon bans. Yet, I do think that there are certain weapons that have been banned recently that should get another look and I believe that we have lent a bit too heavily of the "X weapon is not fun to play against" argument in recent years as opposed to functional impacts on the pace or flow of gameplay.

But this video makes no attempt at even considering the other side(s) of the argument outside of "ETF2L Bad". The most blatant case of this is when they talk about the Global Whitelist and how unrestricted it was and lament that its no longer adopted. When it was ESEA and the NA scene that made the first move away from it, ultimately destroying the precedence that all of us had been working hard to establish. Whats the point of a Global Whitelist when a Region/League does its own thing when they don't like the current bans? I continue to hold the belief that the end of the Global Whitelist set us back years in terms of progress.

And of course it makes more sense to trust Prem Players' view on the game over an Open Player. Whilst I do believe that Non-Prem Players should have a voice through polls and forum discussions, top players have a better insight into what can disrupt the flow of play and how best to exploit these weapons. I think some of the more questionable bans can be attributed to a circlejerk pushing the ban forward with no-one else really pushing back on it.

We do need a honest discussion in EU about how we approach weapon bans at a higher level. What crosses that line between Bannable and Unbannable? Like the Wrap Assassin was unbanned for years and only gets banned once a couple of prem players use it more frequently. Now you can argue about whether its justified or not, but ultimately you cannot put that ban in the same category as something like the Mad Milk or Wrangler - its FAR less impactful. But this video makes such a bad faith attempt at having a good discussion that even when some valid points are made, they still come across as ignorant of the equally valid counter-arguments. There is no right answer as to what is and isn't a good weapon ban, its all entirely opinion, and pretending there is some objectively correct whitelist is not the way to encourage a healthy debate.

[b]TL;DR: Video is argued in bad faith, diminishing any valid points made. We do need to look at EU's approach to weapon bans, whilst acknowledging that the Whitelist will always be a compromise between the huge range of opinions on balance in competitive play.[/b]

As someone who has been involved in whitelist discussions before, during, and after the Global Whitelist this video is a pretty poor and biased view of ETF2L's approach to weapon bans. Yet, I do think that there are certain weapons that have been banned recently that should get another look and I believe that we have lent a bit too heavily of the "X weapon is not fun to play against" argument in recent years as opposed to functional impacts on the pace or flow of gameplay.

But this video makes no attempt at even considering the other side(s) of the argument outside of "ETF2L Bad". The most blatant case of this is when they talk about the Global Whitelist and how unrestricted it was and lament that its no longer adopted. When it was ESEA and the NA scene that made the first move away from it, ultimately destroying the precedence that all of us had been working hard to establish. Whats the point of a Global Whitelist when a Region/League does its own thing when they don't like the current bans? I continue to hold the belief that the end of the Global Whitelist set us back years in terms of progress.

And of course it makes more sense to trust Prem Players' view on the game over an Open Player. Whilst I do believe that Non-Prem Players should have a voice through polls and forum discussions, top players have a better insight into what can disrupt the flow of play and how best to exploit these weapons. I think some of the more questionable bans can be attributed to a circlejerk pushing the ban forward with no-one else really pushing back on it.

We do need a honest discussion in EU about how we approach weapon bans at a higher level. What crosses that line between Bannable and Unbannable? Like the Wrap Assassin was unbanned for years and only gets banned once a couple of prem players use it more frequently. Now you can argue about whether its justified or not, but ultimately you cannot put that ban in the same category as something like the Mad Milk or Wrangler - its FAR less impactful. But this video makes such a bad faith attempt at having a good discussion that even when some valid points are made, they still come across as ignorant of the equally valid counter-arguments. There is no right answer as to what is and isn't a good weapon ban, its all entirely opinion, and pretending there is some objectively correct whitelist is not the way to encourage a healthy debate.
6
#6
31 Frags +

what is the obsession with unbanning random weapons that add nothing and just make the game slightly worse?

what is the obsession with unbanning random weapons that add nothing and just make the game slightly worse?
7
#7
13 Frags +
RedTPCwhat is the obsession with unbanning random weapons that add nothing and just make the game slightly worse?

because we need to be ready for valve to invest in the esports!!! duh!! also ban loch n load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[quote=RedTPC]what is the obsession with unbanning random weapons that add nothing and just make the game slightly worse?[/quote]
because we need to be ready for valve to invest in the esports!!! duh!! also ban loch n load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
8
#8
19 Frags +

Hardstuck middy makes shit video with shit opinions and actively misrepresents why weapons are banned. Also "the league is in decline". Like yeah buddy, that happens when you play a 17 year old game that receives no support.

This is why we don't care about low div (you) opinions, you are hardstuck mid.

[url=https://etf2l.org/forum/user/120631/]Hardstuck middy[/url] makes shit video with shit opinions and actively misrepresents why weapons are banned. Also "the league is in decline". Like yeah buddy, that happens when you play a 17 year old game that receives no support.

This is why we don't care about low div (you) opinions, you are hardstuck mid.
9
#9
14 Frags +

Feck man we need to allow the gas passer and impossibly ban people from throwing it through walls, for the future of tf2...

Feck man we need to allow the gas passer and impossibly ban people from throwing it through walls, for the future of tf2...
10
#10
10 Frags +

whys a scout main care about unlocks anyway

whys a scout main care about unlocks anyway
11
#11
-7 Frags +

womp womp

womp womp
12
#12
-9 Frags +

Banning market gardener and lnl when people start using it is mad cringe, we are all shit.

Banning market gardener and lnl when people start using it is mad cringe, we are all shit.
13
#13
19 Frags +

While it's hard to agree with the points on weapon bans made in the video, I don't think it's correct to dismiss it as just some middie crying either. Stuff like that is the symptom of something wrong going on with tf2 community at large. Just looking at different players groups, everyone holds a grudge againts others in some way: casual vs comp, lower divs vs higher divs, players vs admins, 6s vs hl, eu vs na. It's like a big pub brawl over who can get a bigger part of the game designed around their personal preferences. I get that this is caused by the lack of devs and common vision, but yeah, tough luck, gotta make do with what we have. Having more communication and less whining would help.

The video itself could serve as good feedback for admins actually (at least the ones that care). That post with loch n load ban was poorly reasoned, everyone pointed it out at the time, idk if any lessons were learned. Voting sometimes acts as a way to delegate responsibility from admins to prem players, and then the official reason behind certain changes becomes "it was the prem players not me lol". While banning kids for cheats and bad words is good and all, I still think the primary responsibility of an admin should be figuring out how should the rules, maps, whitelist, and such be adjusted between the seasons - the stuff that actually makes people want to play the game. Improving the image of comp tf2 in the minds of casuals could go a long way.

While it's hard to agree with the points on weapon bans made in the video, I don't think it's correct to dismiss it as just some middie crying either. Stuff like that is the symptom of something wrong going on with tf2 community at large. Just looking at different players groups, everyone holds a grudge againts others in some way: casual vs comp, lower divs vs higher divs, players vs admins, 6s vs hl, eu vs na. It's like a big pub brawl over who can get a bigger part of the game designed around their personal preferences. I get that this is caused by the lack of devs and common vision, but yeah, tough luck, gotta make do with what we have. Having more communication and less whining would help.

The video itself could serve as good feedback for admins actually (at least the ones that care). That post with loch n load ban was poorly reasoned, everyone pointed it out at the time, idk if any lessons were learned. Voting sometimes acts as a way to delegate responsibility from admins to prem players, and then the official reason behind certain changes becomes "it was the prem players not me lol". While banning kids for cheats and bad words is good and all, I still think the primary responsibility of an admin should be figuring out how should the rules, maps, whitelist, and such be adjusted between the seasons - the stuff that actually makes people want to play the game. Improving the image of comp tf2 in the minds of casuals could go a long way.
14
#14
6 Frags +

https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201

https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201
15
#15
5 Frags +

frustrating watch but i guess the main points that i got from the video are:

  1. Some weapon bans have poor justifications
  2. The league listens to prem players more than lower level players
  3. We should look to unban as many weapons as possible


the video seems really fixated on the loch n load ban justification being really poor - which I think most people agree with. imo it should stay banned - it's not that fun to play against and feels like a lower skill weapon.

i don't think there needs to be any reason for any weapon ban or config change, etc. beyond just saying it's unfun or simply that people want it removed. We shouldn't be trying trying to make the league as "stock" as possible to appeal to valve or pub players or whatever. Instead, we should just make the changes we want to in order to make the league more fun for the actual players in the league. This includes running whatever plugins and/or modifying weapon behaviour.

just because no one is "abusing" a certain weapon or playstyle doesn't mean we should want to see it in our games. i don't want to play against heavy to mid, or pyro + engi, or whatever.

this leads into the second point, which is that only prem players are being listened to. which kinda sucks if you're excluded. the point is kinda valid, but i think it's important to remember that the prem players are the ones which are/have spent the most time grinding the league. i don't think its fair to say the lower divs are the lifeblood of the league. the opinion of prem players does kinda matter a bit more than some div5 new player who just wants to run their gimmicky strat.

it really just leads back to the classic balancing conundrum that every competitive game faces - do we balance for the top tiers or for all players?

frustrating watch but i guess the main points that i got from the video are:
[olist]
[*] Some weapon bans have poor justifications
[*] The league listens to prem players more than lower level players
[*] We should look to unban as many weapons as possible
[/olist]
the video seems really fixated on the loch n load ban justification being really poor - which I think most people agree with. imo it should stay banned - it's not that fun to play against and feels like a lower skill weapon.

i don't think there needs to be any reason for any weapon ban or config change, etc. beyond just saying it's unfun or simply that people want it removed. We shouldn't be trying trying to make the league as "stock" as possible to appeal to valve or pub players or whatever. Instead, we should just [b]make the changes we want to in order to make the league more fun for the actual players in the league[/b]. This includes running whatever plugins and/or modifying weapon behaviour.

just because no one is "abusing" a certain weapon or playstyle doesn't mean we should want to see it in our games. i don't want to play against heavy to mid, or pyro + engi, or whatever.

this leads into the second point, which is that only prem players are being listened to. which kinda sucks if you're excluded. the point is kinda valid, but i think it's important to remember that the prem players are the ones which are/have spent the most time grinding the league. i don't think its fair to say the lower divs are the lifeblood of the league. the opinion of prem players does kinda matter a bit more than some div5 new player who just wants to run their gimmicky strat.

it really just leads back to the classic balancing conundrum that every competitive game faces - do we balance for the top tiers or for all players?
16
#16
-11 Frags +
waxhttps://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201

so what would you do in this situation wax

[quote=wax]https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201[/quote]
so what would you do in this situation wax
17
#17
16 Frags +

Apologies for long post ahead:

I think overall this seems like more of a communication/PR problem than anything else.

There are lots of people who are misinformed (or deliberately acting in bad faith) when talking about this topic, but the poster of this video in the yt comments seems to at least be somewhat reasonable and open to change, and I think if they were to have a genuine respectful dialogue with prem-level players they would at least understand things more.

People keep saying that they are spreading bad faith takes on purpose but I actually disagree with this. Having been in the fucking trenches for too long on tf2 reddits and youtube comments because I want to kill myself or something, I think comp players can be somewhat myopic when they consider how obvious the reasoning behind many changes in competitive are.

The video is an example of this issue but I'll provide an example of my own (because I'm more familiar with it); loch was recently banned in NA highlander. If you're not in an invite highlander circlejerk, or you have no connection to invite players (which I would hazard to guess is actually most people playing), what are your avenues to actually learning the reasoning behind wanting such a ban?

- Weapon was barely used at all during the season until the end (and probably even less so in lower divs I would guess), so it's not like you would see firsthand its problems
- Lower divs are worse at the game and thus worse at exploiting the weapon
- RGL forums are giga fucking dead so who knows what ppl are thinking (save the thread on loch, I'll come back to this)
- It's come up a couple of times in the main channel of the league discord, the channel that is dead like half the time and the other half the time it's talking about random shit, so very easy to miss.
- You can watch like maybe 2 casted matches last season that used it primarily, and with POV cam's + the cam not always being on the demo it's hard to get a sense of just how much the weapon is warping how ppl play. Plus how would you be able to tell between this weapon is changing how ppl play vs. this is just how invite teams play?

Now all of a sudden you get a survey question about whether or not to ban the loch. You have no reference point for why people want it gone, but obviously something must have happened, some meta shift. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to assume that people are just being mad because they fail to adapt. Here's an example of such a post, and you can see the replies and that they later change their mind after hearing the reasoning. Is it annoying that people default to "comp players want thing banned = they are bad and salty cause they lost to it"? Sure, but in the absence of information available to these players I don't think it's a crazy conclusion to reach.

Ironically I think some comp players need to touch grass and take a step back for a second. It's really quite difficult for ppl who don't go out of their way to interact with good players to get a sense of what they're thinking. So ETF2L cringing it up by putting the wrong ban reasons (2 shotting sentries lol) actually can have a pretty significant impact on things. Proper articulation of why things are unfun or broken goes a long way; I know because I've been around that "unfun" roughly translates to either "rewards excessively defensive gameplay" or "incredibly rng and luck based" or "why are we giving the best class in the game something that makes it even better" or whatever, but others may not and that's perfectly reasonable.

Apologies for long post ahead:

I think overall this seems like more of a communication/PR problem than anything else.

There are lots of people who are misinformed (or deliberately acting in bad faith) when talking about this topic, but the poster of this video in the yt comments seems to at least be somewhat reasonable and open to change, and I think if they were to have a genuine respectful dialogue with prem-level players they would at least understand things more.

People keep saying that they are spreading bad faith takes on purpose but I actually disagree with this. Having been in the fucking trenches for too long on tf2 reddits and youtube comments because I want to kill myself or something, I think comp players can be somewhat myopic when they consider how obvious the reasoning behind many changes in competitive are.

The video is an example of this issue but I'll provide an example of my own (because I'm more familiar with it); loch was recently banned in NA highlander. If you're not in an invite highlander circlejerk, or you have no connection to invite players (which I would hazard to guess is actually most people playing), what are your avenues to actually learning the reasoning behind wanting such a ban?

- Weapon was barely used at all during the season until the end (and probably even less so in lower divs I would guess), so it's not like you would see firsthand its problems
- Lower divs are worse at the game and thus worse at exploiting the weapon
- RGL forums are giga fucking dead so who knows what ppl are thinking (save the thread on loch, I'll come back to this)
- It's come up a couple of times in the main channel of the league discord, the channel that is dead like half the time and the other half the time it's talking about random shit, so very easy to miss.
- You can watch like maybe 2 casted matches last season that used it primarily, and with POV cam's + the cam not always being on the demo it's hard to get a sense of just how much the weapon is warping how ppl play. Plus how would you be able to tell between this weapon is changing how ppl play vs. this is just how invite teams play?

Now all of a sudden you get a survey question about whether or not to ban the loch. You have no reference point for why people want it gone, but obviously [i]something[/i] must have happened, some meta shift. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to assume that people are just being mad because they fail to adapt. [url=https://forums.rgl.gg/post/19818]Here's an example of such a post[/url], and you can see the replies and that they later change their mind after hearing the reasoning. Is it annoying that people default to "comp players want thing banned = they are bad and salty cause they lost to it"? Sure, but in the absence of information available to these players I don't think it's a crazy conclusion to reach.


Ironically I think some comp players need to touch grass and take a step back for a second. It's really quite difficult for ppl who don't go out of their way to interact with good players to get a sense of what they're thinking. So ETF2L cringing it up by putting the wrong ban reasons (2 shotting sentries lol) actually can have a pretty significant impact on things. Proper articulation of why things are unfun or broken goes a long way; I know because I've been around that "unfun" roughly translates to either "rewards excessively defensive gameplay" or "incredibly rng and luck based" or "why are we giving the best class in the game something that makes it even better" or whatever, but others may not and that's perfectly reasonable.
18
#18
19 Frags +
Rahmedwaxhttps://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201so what would you do in this situation wax

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/536274178676883458/1244037328540930189/IMG_20240525_231158_987.png?ex=6653a78c&is=6652560c&hm=47bb7eb8d31a7aedbf036bec1ff5f20444102b23baf0d573485a42f71c4e47ed&;

[quote=Rahmed][quote=wax]https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201[/quote]
so what would you do in this situation wax[/quote]

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/536274178676883458/1244037328540930189/IMG_20240525_231158_987.png?ex=6653a78c&is=6652560c&hm=47bb7eb8d31a7aedbf036bec1ff5f20444102b23baf0d573485a42f71c4e47ed&[/img]
19
#19
23 Frags +

The video is clearly made for uncletopians, who already don't have the best idea of competitive and this vid will just fuel it even more. The way he made every argument for banning unlocks sound very one sided and shallow is quite telling his arguments are on stilts lol.

Also making sixes more like pubs won't bring pubbers to comp, it will just make sixes worse. What we need are youtubers or streamers who make this look fun to noobs, instead of people making videos saying: "I can't recommend etf2l in this state" even though this state is a product of a really bad environment for newbies and thus a lack of people wanting to play. What I'm trying to say is he's (unintentionally) griefing etf2l and its growth by making a clickbaity video with nice edits and a nice runtime in which he shits on the league.

The video is clearly made for uncletopians, who already don't have the best idea of competitive and this vid will just fuel it even more. The way he made every argument for banning unlocks sound very one sided and shallow is quite telling his arguments are on stilts lol.

Also making sixes more like pubs won't bring pubbers to comp, it will just make sixes worse. What we need are youtubers or streamers who make this look fun to noobs, instead of people making videos saying: "I can't recommend etf2l in this state" even though this state is a product of a really bad environment for newbies and thus a lack of people wanting to play. What I'm trying to say is he's (unintentionally) griefing etf2l and its growth by making a clickbaity video with nice edits and a nice runtime in which he shits on the league.
20
#20
-6 Frags +
waxRahmedwaxhttps://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201so what would you do in this situation wax
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/536274178676883458/1244037328540930189/IMG_20240525_231158_987.png?ex=6653a78c&is=6652560c&hm=47bb7eb8d31a7aedbf036bec1ff5f20444102b23baf0d573485a42f71c4e47ed&;

You've won the cash prize on "you're smarter than a middie"

[quote=wax][quote=Rahmed][quote=wax]https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201[/quote]
so what would you do in this situation wax[/quote]

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/536274178676883458/1244037328540930189/IMG_20240525_231158_987.png?ex=6653a78c&is=6652560c&hm=47bb7eb8d31a7aedbf036bec1ff5f20444102b23baf0d573485a42f71c4e47ed&[/img][/quote]
You've won the cash prize on "you're smarter than a middie"
21
#21
12 Frags +

I'm his teammate next season so I have some added context. Educate me if I'm wrong on something, I'm here with an open mind. I'm planning on doing my own video about 6s (a season, not strictly about whitelists) but I don't want to risk being an idiot in front of potentially a million people.

One of the main points he was trying to make is that some changes are seemingly being controlled by an uncomfortably small number of people. At least, in that one instance with gunboats plugin. I'm not saying to let open/low/mid players vote on the whitelist, I'm well aware that a lot of people have awful balance takes (myself included). I'm pretty sure Flares is aware of this too. But are div1 players really so bad at 6s that their votes can be discarded in favor of prem's feedback only? Did that really happen, or am I missing something?

As for bans in general, you guys could have genuinely great reasons for banning the Loch or Winger for example, but low div plebs and pubbers have very little idea of what those reasons are. Especially when the ETF2L cringe post gave the wrong reasons for banning Loch.

Considering that RGL has a less strict whitelist and hasn't caved in on itself, you can't really blame people for wondering why ETF2L's whitelist is more strict. The first impression a new player gets is "wow, ETF2L is banning minor inconveniences while RGL has proven these weapons are not an issue". Not saying this is actually what's happening, but that's the first impression you get. Again, you can't really blame him for potentially getting things wrong here, when there's very little to work with.

There'd be a lot less shit-flinging if you guys made ban reasons significantly clearer with less room for misinterpretation. Why not have a single ETF2L page that lists each banned weapon and the reasons why? I don't mean whitelist.tf. The closest things we have are a very outdated video by Woolen Slevelet, and a 1 hour long ramble by Wild Rumpus that doesn't even cover ETF2L but RGL. An official page on the website with up to date info would probably prevent false rumors or at least be compelling evidence to prove those rumors wrong.

I'm his teammate next season so I have some added context. Educate me if I'm wrong on something, I'm here with an open mind. I'm planning on doing my own video about 6s (a season, not strictly about whitelists) but I don't want to risk being an idiot in front of potentially a million people.

One of the main points he was trying to make is that some changes are seemingly being controlled by an uncomfortably small number of people. At least, in that one instance with gunboats plugin. I'm not saying to let open/low/mid players vote on the whitelist, I'm well aware that a lot of people have awful balance takes (myself included). I'm pretty sure Flares is aware of this too. But are div1 players really so bad at 6s that their votes can be discarded in favor of prem's feedback only? Did that really happen, or am I missing something?

As for bans in general, you guys could have genuinely great reasons for banning the Loch or Winger for example, but low div plebs and pubbers have very little idea of what those reasons are. Especially when the ETF2L cringe post gave the wrong reasons for banning Loch.

Considering that RGL has a less strict whitelist and hasn't caved in on itself, you can't really blame people for wondering why ETF2L's whitelist is more strict. The first impression a new player gets is "wow, ETF2L is banning minor inconveniences while RGL has proven these weapons are not an issue". Not saying this is actually what's happening, but that's the first impression you get. Again, you can't really blame him for potentially getting things wrong here, when there's very little to work with.

There'd be a lot less shit-flinging if you guys made ban reasons significantly clearer with less room for misinterpretation. Why not have a single ETF2L page that lists each banned weapon and the reasons why? I don't mean whitelist.tf. The closest things we have are [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwOzxCdZiOc]a very outdated video by Woolen Slevelet,[/url] and a [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkPZH-4UvW0]1 hour long ramble by Wild Rumpus that doesn't even cover ETF2L but RGL.[/url] An official page on the website with up to date info would probably prevent false rumors or at least be compelling evidence to prove those rumors wrong.
22
#22
6 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/995983467911319565/1244077768908738641/image.png?ex=6653cd35&is=66527bb5&hm=778c87d6244f7a2b161edfa874bb387a36f054eff5b44c2ea981247aa6b7ecf9&;

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/995983467911319565/1244077768908738641/image.png?ex=6653cd35&is=66527bb5&hm=778c87d6244f7a2b161edfa874bb387a36f054eff5b44c2ea981247aa6b7ecf9&[/img]
23
#23
7 Frags +
waxhttps://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201

this is actually a fine example to counter the stance that rollers are barely purposefully used with a very clear example of the usefulness of rollers being used intentionally
even among players who dont want to play with the loch, people were openly mocking etf2l's official position on the ban because it just reads like someone whos never played against the weapon wrote it with help from chat gpt, and that part of the video is talking about that in a totally normal way
like its fine to ban the loch if you want and i wouldnt even care if it got banned in na but at least be honest about the reasons and say that its unfun to play against or that random cross-map pipes are too much or really any of the actual reasons rather than trying to launder the ban under some other pretense that sounds nicer to say

[quote=wax]https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201[/quote]
this is actually a fine example to counter the stance that rollers are barely purposefully used with a very clear example of the usefulness of rollers being used intentionally
even among players who dont want to play with the loch, people were openly mocking etf2l's official position on the ban because it just reads like someone whos never played against the weapon wrote it with help from chat gpt, and that part of the video is talking about that in a totally normal way
like its fine to ban the loch if you want and i wouldnt even care if it got banned in na but at least be honest about the reasons and say that its unfun to play against or that random cross-map pipes are too much or really any of the actual reasons rather than trying to launder the ban under some other pretense that sounds nicer to say
24
#24
EssentialsTF
12 Frags +
SolarLight One of the main points he was trying to make is that some changes are seemingly being controlled by an uncomfortably small number of people. At least, in that one instance with gunboats plugin. I'm not saying to let open/low/mid players vote on the whitelist, I'm well aware that a lot of people have awful balance takes (myself included). I'm pretty sure Flares is aware of this too. But are div1 players really so bad at 6s that their votes can be discarded in favor of prem's feedback only? Did that really happen, or am I missing something?

Its weird to say "changes are being controlled by a small group of people" and in the same paragraph also acknowledge why this may be a good reason ("awful balance takes" referring to open-mid players). Plus when you look at the number of votes for the Gunboats Plugin less than half of the votes were D1 and D2, when you take into account that Prem Players are most capable of exploiting the Plugin and took up the majority of the vote its pretty clear as to why the Admins ultimately sided with the Premiership vote when it was closely tied. Is it representative of what the majority of players may think? Probably not. But simply brushing the justification aside because Flares thinks its stupid is, in fact, just as stupid. I'm not even sure of this, but did Flares even ask the Admins directly about the weapon bans?

Woolen did a great job in his video as he made sure that whether he agreed with a ban or not, he presented the ban as is and its reasons, consulted the admins, and let the audience decide whether its justified or not. Flares comes into this video without this objectivity and instead paints the Admins with a very large brush. Speaking from experience, Admins often disagree with which weapons get banned but when they do they have a extensive discussion before going ahead with anything.

SolarLightAs for bans in general, you guys could have genuinely great reasons for banning the Loch or Winger for example, but low div plebs and pubbers have very little idea of what those reasons are. Especially when the ETF2L cringe post gave the wrong reasons for banning Loch.

The problem here is that when we TRY to explain these bans, and ETF2L do give examples from players and in the news posts for the justifiations, Casual/Low-tier Comp players just put their fingers in their ears and insist that there is this vendetta against anything even slightly off-meta.

SolarLightConsidering that RGL has a less strict whitelist and hasn't caved in on itself, you can't really blame people for wondering why ETF2L's whitelist is more strict. The first impression a new player gets is "wow, ETF2L is banning minor inconveniences while RGL has proven these weapons are not an issue". Not saying this is actually what's happening, but that's the first impression you get. Again, you can't really blame him for potentially getting things wrong here, when there's very little to work with.

New players aren't really going to be all to aware of the discrepancies between whitelists, when they are still grappling with the basics of competitive play. And I would be shocked if the difference between a casual playing competitive and not is whether or not the Loch-N-Load is banned, there are FAR greater issues with competitive play that are active roadblocks between casual and competitive. Those are things that we could actually work on instead of this belief that weapon bans do anything to increase accessiblity in the scene. As weapon bans have loosened signups have actually declined, but in reality the whitelist has very little impact on engagement in the scene.

SolarLightThere'd be a lot less shit-flinging if you guys made ban reasons significantly clearer with less room for misinterpretation. Why not have a single ETF2L page that lists each banned weapon and the reasons why? I don't mean whitelist.tf. The closest things we have are a very outdated video by Woolen Slevelet and a 1 hour long ramble by Wild Rumpus that doesn't even cover ETF2L but RGL. An official page on the website with up to date info would probably prevent false rumors or at least be compelling evidence to prove those rumors wrong.

I think you have a point to have an article or page making clear current weapon bans as right now the only way to find out is through Whitelist.TF which isn't ideal. But that would do so very little to actually change peoples mind. Just going through the comments on Woolen's video its clear that even when you provide a legitimate argument, Casual players will still parrot YTber's or Reddit's talking points because they themselves don't understand the complexity behind what goes behind a weapon ban. Hell, even most competitive players don't.

Again, I think we need to have a candid discussion about how we go about a weapon ban and what it means to cross that line between ban/unban. I am all for a good healthy discussion here, but presenting admins as morons just doing whatever Prem Players tells them really doesn't do anything but further villainises Volunteers taking up their valuable time to keep the scene going. Lots of people are willing to sit back and moan, but do very little in actually trying to make a change. Run an experimental cup, post it on TFTV, get a bunch of youtubers for a shout out, see if you can get something up on KritzKast or ETF, and get some data and feedback. Hell we're in an off-season, it wouldn't be hard to do it.

[quote=SolarLight] One of the main points he was trying to make is that some changes are seemingly being controlled by an uncomfortably small number of people. At least, in that one instance with gunboats plugin. I'm not saying to let open/low/mid players vote on the whitelist, I'm well aware that a lot of people have awful balance takes (myself included). I'm pretty sure Flares is aware of this too. But are div1 players really so bad at 6s that their votes can be discarded in favor of prem's feedback only? Did that really happen, or am I missing something?[/quote]

Its weird to say "changes are being controlled by a small group of people" and in the same paragraph also acknowledge why this may be a good reason ("awful balance takes" referring to open-mid players). Plus when you look at the number of votes for the Gunboats Plugin less than half of the votes were D1 and D2, when you take into account that Prem Players are most capable of exploiting the Plugin and took up the majority of the vote its pretty clear as to why the Admins ultimately sided with the Premiership vote when it was closely tied. Is it representative of what the majority of players may think? Probably not. But simply brushing the justification aside because Flares thinks its stupid is, in fact, just as stupid. I'm not even sure of this, but did Flares even ask the Admins directly about the weapon bans?

Woolen did a great job in his video as he made sure that whether he agreed with a ban or not, he presented the ban as is and its reasons, consulted the admins, and let the audience decide whether its justified or not. Flares comes into this video without this objectivity and instead paints the Admins with a very large brush. Speaking from experience, Admins often disagree with which weapons get banned but when they do they have a extensive discussion before going ahead with anything.

[quote=SolarLight]As for bans in general, you guys could have genuinely great reasons for banning the Loch or Winger for example, but low div plebs and pubbers have very little idea of what those reasons are. Especially when the ETF2L cringe post gave the wrong reasons for banning Loch.[/quote]

The problem here is that when we TRY to explain these bans, and ETF2L do give examples from players and in the news posts for the justifiations, Casual/Low-tier Comp players just put their fingers in their ears and insist that there is this vendetta against anything even slightly off-meta.

[quote=SolarLight]Considering that RGL has a less strict whitelist and hasn't caved in on itself, you can't really blame people for wondering why ETF2L's whitelist is more strict. The first impression a new player gets is "wow, ETF2L is banning minor inconveniences while RGL has proven these weapons are not an issue". Not saying this is actually what's happening, but that's the first impression you get. Again, you can't really blame him for potentially getting things wrong here, when there's very little to work with.[/quote]

New players aren't really going to be all to aware of the discrepancies between whitelists, when they are still grappling with the basics of competitive play. And I would be shocked if the difference between a casual playing competitive and not is whether or not the Loch-N-Load is banned, there are FAR greater issues with competitive play that are active roadblocks between casual and competitive. Those are things that we could actually work on instead of this belief that weapon bans do anything to increase accessiblity in the scene. As weapon bans have loosened signups have actually declined, but in reality the whitelist has very little impact on engagement in the scene.

[quote=SolarLight]There'd be a lot less shit-flinging if you guys made ban reasons significantly clearer with less room for misinterpretation. Why not have a single ETF2L page that lists each banned weapon and the reasons why? I don't mean whitelist.tf. The closest things we have are a very outdated video by Woolen Slevelet and a 1 hour long ramble by Wild Rumpus that doesn't even cover ETF2L but RGL. An official page on the website with up to date info would probably prevent false rumors or at least be compelling evidence to prove those rumors wrong.[/quote]

I think you have a point to have an article or page making clear current weapon bans as right now the only way to find out is through Whitelist.TF which isn't ideal. But that would do so very little to actually change peoples mind. Just going through the comments on Woolen's video its clear that even when you provide a legitimate argument, Casual players will still parrot YTber's or Reddit's talking points because they themselves don't understand the complexity behind what goes behind a weapon ban. Hell, even most competitive players don't.

Again, I think we need to have a candid discussion about how we go about a weapon ban and what it means to cross that line between ban/unban. I am all for a good healthy discussion here, but presenting admins as morons just doing whatever Prem Players tells them really doesn't do anything but further villainises Volunteers taking up their valuable time to keep the scene going. Lots of people are willing to sit back and moan, but do very little in actually trying to make a change. Run an experimental cup, post it on TFTV, get a bunch of youtubers for a shout out, see if you can get something up on KritzKast or ETF, and get some data and feedback. Hell we're in an off-season, it wouldn't be hard to do it.
25
#25
1 Frags +
DrHappinessbig

Thank you for being detailed. Flares is willing to take feedback and seems to feel bad about the reaction the video has gotten on here. I ask you guys to not go too hard on him even if he did make a few mistakes.

[quote=DrHappiness]big[/quote]

Thank you for being detailed. Flares is willing to take feedback and seems to feel bad about the reaction the video has gotten on here. I ask you guys to not go too hard on him even if he did make a few mistakes.
26
#26
17 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFgcqB8-AxE[/youtube]
27
#27
1 Frags +
Wild_Rumpuswaxhttps://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201this is actually a fine example to counter the stance that rollers are barely purposefully used with a very clear example of the usefulness of rollers being used intentionally

is it really though? as a demo, would you rather have hit the first pipe or put the roller down?

it's true that the roller being there isn't a complete side effect (you know that the roller will slow the scout down) but at the same time, the real reason for shooting the pipe is to hit it. the roller is just a really useful side-effect that you can exploit.

a way better argument for using rollers imo is when you run out of sticks locking down a choke and swap to iron bomber. but even in that case, you would rather have had the pipes just hit.

[quote=Wild_Rumpus][quote=wax]https://youtu.be/wXxDPB-EStI?si=LroZEwvruHB0oTGh&t=201[/quote]
this is actually a fine example to counter the stance that rollers are barely purposefully used with a very clear example of the usefulness of rollers being used intentionally[/quote]

is it really though? as a demo, would you rather have hit the first pipe or put the roller down?

it's true that the roller being there isn't a [i]complete[/i] side effect (you know that the roller will slow the scout down) but at the same time, the real reason for shooting the pipe is to hit it. the roller is just a really useful side-effect that you can exploit.

a way better argument for using rollers imo is when you run out of sticks locking down a choke and swap to iron bomber. but even in that case, you would rather have had the pipes just hit.
28
#28
21 Frags +

if your plan A while making a retreat as demo is to put down some strategic rollers into a doorway you are playing the class wrong (hint: you have a stickybomb launcher)

if your plan A while making a retreat as demo is to put down some strategic rollers into a doorway you are playing the class wrong (hint: you have a stickybomb launcher)
29
#29
18 Frags +
wprimate screeching

this guy's sole exposure to anything related to team fortress 2's community competitive scene is when he got rolled by an invite scout in a pub once 5 years ago and he's been crying about it since

[quote=w]primate screeching[/quote]

this guy's sole exposure to anything related to team fortress 2's community competitive scene is when he got rolled by an invite scout in a pub once 5 years ago and he's been crying about it since
30
#30
14 Frags +
Richarrrrdwprimate screeching
this guy's sole exposure to anything related to team fortress 2's community competitive scene is when he got rolled by an invite scout in a pub once 5 years ago and he's been crying about it since

Not even that, it was just j_peg.

[quote=Richarrrrd][quote=w]primate screeching[/quote]

this guy's sole exposure to anything related to team fortress 2's community competitive scene is when he got rolled by an invite scout in a pub once 5 years ago and he's been crying about it since[/quote]

Not even that, it was just j_peg.
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