Upvote Upvoted 107 Downvote Downvoted
1 2 3 4 5 ⋅⋅ 8
OMG 2
31
#31
28 Frags +

The reasoning given by one of the RGL anti-cheat admins on their "transparency stream" for not permabanning cheaters was unbelievably stupid; they basically stated that permabanning cheaters isn't done out of some principle of "fairness" or consistency because reformed past cheaters who already "served their time" like nyxi or habib would then have to be retroactively permabanned, therefore permabans aren't done (weird because RGL doesn't seem to care too much about being consistent when it comes to other things).

The reasoning given by one of the RGL anti-cheat admins on their "transparency stream" for not permabanning cheaters was unbelievably stupid; they basically stated that permabanning cheaters isn't done out of some principle of "fairness" or consistency because reformed past cheaters who already "served their time" like nyxi or habib would then have to be retroactively permabanned, therefore permabans aren't done (weird because RGL doesn't seem to care too much about being consistent when it comes to other things).
32
#32
10 Frags +
chellSpaceCadetthe people who scrim/play against him and his team are fucking morons for even playing against a cheater.
I don't really know what option my team has to not scrimming him. We can just say fuck him he's a cheater, but then we'd just lose cuz no way ac team does anything this season. Coping won't really make rgl act faster or review their rules more, so it's just learning to play against a team where the combo scouts gets 40+ kills every map and just try not to think about if he's legit or not.

my team has not scrimmed them

[quote=chell][quote=SpaceCadet]
the people who scrim/play against him and his team are fucking morons for even playing against a cheater.[/quote]

I don't really know what option my team has to not scrimming him. We can just say fuck him he's a cheater, but then we'd just lose cuz no way ac team does anything this season. Coping won't really make rgl act faster or review their rules more, so it's just learning to play against a team where the combo scouts gets 40+ kills every map and just try not to think about if he's legit or not.[/quote]
my team has not scrimmed them
33
#33
2 Frags +

Realistically the only thing that can be done (unless an rgl ban happens) is for the playoffs adv teams to refuse to play them and forfeit all playoffs matches vs them (which they would most likely have lost anyways) out of protest

Realistically the only thing that can be done (unless an rgl ban happens) is for the playoffs adv teams to refuse to play them and forfeit all playoffs matches vs them (which they would most likely have lost anyways) out of protest
34
#34
37 Frags +
dippidyReerodippidyhttps://streamable.com/x3lpvk

ok ngl i was a bit on the fence but this is it, gg retard gtfo

[quote=dippidy][quote=Reero][quote=dippidy]
[/quote]
[/quote]
https://streamable.com/x3lpvk[/quote]
ok ngl i was a bit on the fence but this is it, gg retard gtfo
35
#35
110 Frags +

thats just how good seeker crosshair is

thats just how good seeker crosshair is
36
#36
-8 Frags +

man i was hoping that gif would only be like the hotdog toilet one

man i was hoping that gif would only be like the hotdog toilet one
37
#37
31 Frags +

Hey guys remember when cepi just blatantly cheated in like 3 Pug Hub games everyone watched it happen on stream, then cepi left and literally nothing happened? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Hey guys remember when cepi just blatantly cheated in like 3 Pug Hub games everyone watched it happen on stream, then cepi left and literally nothing happened? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
38
#38
20 Frags +
dippidyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7WsKby6TIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bnikqCLkc
https://streamable.com/x3lpvk

I really don't see how he could be reacting to changes in position so quickly and smoothly without cheating. It definitely seems very impossible for human reaction time. I couldn't find anything in recordings of my own gameplay that resembled at all to what dippidy has shown. It basically always took me at least 150 ms to react, even in the fastest moments. Elijah seems to be doing it in less than 100 ms in all of the scout clips.

I would like to see if any other invite or advanced scouts aim like that even sometimes, just for comparison. I don't have very good tracking aim, so I don't think I am a good comparison. It might be more realistic that this is just really good prediction if it could be shown that good trackers in tf2 aim very similarly.

If you don't think elijah is cheating, this would be a good way to show that this isn't suspicious aiming.

[quote=dippidy]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7WsKby6TIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bnikqCLkc
https://streamable.com/x3lpvk
[/quote]
I really don't see how he could be reacting to changes in position so quickly and smoothly without cheating. It definitely seems very impossible for human reaction time. I couldn't find anything in recordings of my own gameplay that resembled at all to what dippidy has shown. It basically always took me at least 150 ms to react, even in the fastest moments. Elijah seems to be doing it in less than 100 ms in all of the scout clips.

I would like to see if any other invite or advanced scouts aim like that even sometimes, just for comparison. I don't have very good tracking aim, so I don't think I am a good comparison. It might be more realistic that this is just really good prediction if it could be shown that good trackers in tf2 aim very similarly.

If you don't think elijah is cheating, this would be a good way to show that this isn't suspicious aiming.
39
#39
19 Frags +
hellstarIt might be more realistic that this is just really good prediction if it could be shown that good trackers in tf2 aim very similarly.

I think if someone reaaally wanted to defend these clips they could argue that the apparent impossible visual reaction times in certain clips could result from prediction rather than reactive aiming, i.e. seeing a soldier aiming his weapon model at a certain angle towards the ground, thereby knowing he's about to jump and inferring his likely trajectory based off the angle, map geometry, and state of the game, but the snakewater clip where the soldier messes up and hits his head, cancelling his momentum, is something that would make zero sense for anyone to ever predict happening, yet he never overflicks and his mouse stops exactly as the soldier's momentum stops, so this is at least one example of an impossibly fast reaction that cannot reasonably be attributed to prediction, leaving the only other possibility to be "he just decided to stop moving his mouse exactly then for no reason and got lucky", which doesn't seem likely.

[quote=hellstar]
It might be more realistic that this is just really good prediction if it could be shown that good trackers in tf2 aim very similarly.[/quote]

I think if someone reaaally wanted to defend these clips they could argue that the apparent impossible visual reaction times in certain clips could result from prediction rather than reactive aiming, i.e. seeing a soldier aiming his weapon model at a certain angle towards the ground, thereby knowing he's about to jump and inferring his likely trajectory based off the angle, map geometry, and state of the game, but the snakewater clip where the soldier messes up and hits his head, cancelling his momentum, is something that would make zero sense for anyone to ever predict happening, yet he never overflicks and his mouse stops exactly as the soldier's momentum stops, so this is at least one example of an impossibly fast reaction that cannot reasonably be attributed to prediction, leaving the only other possibility to be "he just decided to stop moving his mouse exactly then for no reason and got lucky", which doesn't seem likely.
40
#40
37 Frags +

I have left the RGL AC team some time ago and I won't voice any personal thoughts on this particular case. However I can generally state that the AC staff has been struggling with activity even when I was still on the team trying to help out. The inactivity combined with their massive case backlog was one of my biggest concerns with the NA scene and quite demotivating, and with my other time commitments ultimately were the reason I left as I could no longer justify the time spent on it vs. what I got out of it.
The fault doesn't really lie with anyone in particular, it's more so that it seems there aren't many people who want to do this work, are qualified enough, and have enough free time. The ones who are available have other big commitments eating up their time, like Aad who afaik is very busy with site dev work. That being said alting cases are usually acted on much quicker. I would say another issue I noticed was the general workflow from a case getting reported to actually getting eyes on it, and a lot of workarounds being needed for staff work, for example requesting demos by having to go through League Admins which makes everything even more time consuming. I know RGL is working on site updates with QOL improvements for both staff and players so hopefully that will improve case work in the future.

As for getting new people in, I introduced a test case for applicants similar to the one ETF2L AC trials have to go through and many potential trials just displayed a poor understanding of cheats or jumped to conclusions way too quickly. Many of those who showed enough promise lost interest as soon as they realised how much work they would have to do and left before completing their trial period. I'm not really sure how the entire process can be improved since it generally works fine the way we do things in EU. Although we certainly have had cases in the past that sadly took longer than they should have. RGL/NA has the additional pressure that there is money involved in higher divs which doesn't help.
For RGL itself I would recommend making POV requests possible for teams similar to ETF2L and to make those uploads publicly available. The reason why I advocate for this is because it's good for report quality, otherwise NA players are limited to STVs or other type of recordings. I heard RGL is looking into implementing this so that's good.

Besides applying for AC (please only do so if you are prepared to work on many different cases in the future and not just the ones you are interested in), the best you can do is write conclusive reports on players that include evidence, demo ticks and explanations to help the AC team with their work. For the NA scene overall I hope that AC staff can become more efficient.

I have left the RGL AC team some time ago and I won't voice any personal thoughts on this particular case. However I can generally state that the AC staff has been struggling with activity even when I was still on the team trying to help out. The inactivity combined with their massive case backlog was one of my biggest concerns with the NA scene and quite demotivating, and with my other time commitments ultimately were the reason I left as I could no longer justify the time spent on it vs. what I got out of it.
The fault doesn't really lie with anyone in particular, it's more so that it seems there aren't many people who want to do this work, are qualified enough, and have enough free time. The ones who are available have other big commitments eating up their time, like Aad who afaik is very busy with site dev work. That being said alting cases are usually acted on much quicker. I would say another issue I noticed was the general workflow from a case getting reported to actually getting eyes on it, and a lot of workarounds being needed for staff work, for example requesting demos by having to go through League Admins which makes everything even more time consuming. I know RGL is working on site updates with QOL improvements for both staff and players so hopefully that will improve case work in the future.

As for getting new people in, I introduced a test case for applicants similar to the one ETF2L AC trials have to go through and many potential trials just displayed a poor understanding of cheats or jumped to conclusions way too quickly. Many of those who showed enough promise lost interest as soon as they realised how much work they would have to do and left before completing their trial period. I'm not really sure how the entire process can be improved since it generally works fine the way we do things in EU. Although we certainly have had cases in the past that sadly took longer than they should have. RGL/NA has the additional pressure that there is money involved in higher divs which doesn't help.
For RGL itself I would recommend making POV requests possible for teams [url=https://etf2l.org/general-rules/#2.1]similar to ETF2L[/url] and to make those uploads publicly available. The reason why I advocate for this is because it's good for report quality, otherwise NA players are limited to STVs or other type of recordings. I heard RGL is looking into implementing this so that's good.

Besides applying for AC (please only do so if you are prepared to work on many different cases in the future and not just the ones you are interested in), the best you can do is write conclusive reports on players that include evidence, demo ticks and explanations to help the AC team with their work. For the NA scene overall I hope that AC staff can become more efficient.
41
#41
3 Frags +
riveThe reasoning given by one of the RGL anti-cheat admins on their "transparency stream" for not permabanning cheaters was unbelievably stupid; they basically stated that permabanning cheaters isn't done out of some principle of "fairness" or consistency because reformed past cheaters who already "served their time" like nyxi or habib would then have to be retroactively permabanned, therefore permabans aren't done (weird because RGL doesn't seem to care too much about being consistent when it comes to other things).

The only real "fairness" or consistency principle that RGL could reasonably want to adhere to is not banning anyone ex post facto. All that would mean is that people who were banned before the rule was changed would serve the 2 year bans they were given, and that anyone who is banned after the rule changes would be permabanned. Cases of past cheaters who were never banned or already completed their bans are irrelevant since they wouldn't be punished if the rule didn't change to begin with.

For the people who cheated when the rule had not changed yet, but have not yet been banned: If RGL wanted to be really cautious they could give these people 2 year bans too, since changing the "legal consequences" of an action and then applying them retroactively also violates a principle against ex post facto bans. In this case it wouldn't matter since it's elijah's second offense anyways, and after a 2 year buffer period basically every found cheater would be permabanned.

These things would give currently banned players a chance to "serve their time and reform," as well as to warn new cheaters that they will be permabanned if caught. RGL's reasoning here is wrong since even if they want to be extremely "fair" and follow legal principles like some kind of government, there's nothing wrong with changing the punishment for an action in this way. There's also nothing wrong with Arcadia declaring a state of exception, transcending the rulebook as the sovereign authority over RGL (CEOs are like dictators after all) and permabanning any cheater he wants in the name of the public good.

[quote=rive]The reasoning given by one of the RGL anti-cheat admins on their "transparency stream" for not permabanning cheaters was unbelievably stupid; they basically stated that permabanning cheaters isn't done out of some principle of "fairness" or consistency because reformed past cheaters who already "served their time" like nyxi or habib would then have to be retroactively permabanned, therefore permabans aren't done (weird because RGL doesn't seem to care too much about being consistent when it comes to other things).[/quote]

The only real "fairness" or consistency principle that RGL could reasonably want to adhere to is not banning anyone ex post facto. All that would mean is that people who were banned before the rule was changed would serve the 2 year bans they were given, and that anyone who is banned after the rule changes would be permabanned. Cases of past cheaters who were never banned or already completed their bans are irrelevant since they wouldn't be punished if the rule didn't change to begin with.

For the people who cheated when the rule had not changed yet, but have not yet been banned: If RGL wanted to be really cautious they could give these people 2 year bans too, since changing the "legal consequences" of an action and then applying them retroactively also violates a principle against ex post facto bans. In this case it wouldn't matter since it's elijah's second offense anyways, and after a 2 year buffer period basically every found cheater would be permabanned.

These things would give currently banned players a chance to "serve their time and reform," as well as to warn new cheaters that they will be permabanned if caught. RGL's reasoning here is wrong since even if they want to be extremely "fair" and follow legal principles like some kind of government, there's nothing wrong with changing the punishment for an action in this way. There's also nothing wrong with Arcadia declaring a state of exception, transcending the rulebook as the sovereign authority over RGL (CEOs are like dictators after all) and permabanning any cheater he wants in the name of the public good.
42
#42
6 Frags +

obv RGL wont be consistent on cheater bans thats to be expected but u have to be a very strange kind of person to want to cheat in a game like this, esp in such a small scene

obv RGL wont be consistent on cheater bans thats to be expected but u have to be a very strange kind of person to want to cheat in a game like this, esp in such a small scene
43
#43
10 Frags +

bro has host_timescale 0.1 aim :skull:

https://youtu.be/fcB85aX1pqY

bro has host_timescale 0.1 aim :skull:

https://youtu.be/fcB85aX1pqY
44
#44
-7 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Dqf_6rCpgDY?feature=share

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Dqf_6rCpgDY?feature=share
45
#45
36 Frags +
ReeroAdditionally, he streams himself launching tf2 with his task manager open, and streams his executed programs at the end of each stream.

just wanna mention that (i think) good cheats aren't separate processes, they can be injected into the program you're using them on and they'd never show up on task manager nor would they naturally pop up when you launch the game. i believe after you configure them once, they'd just be set up and stored in game memory so from a spectator pov they'd never show up unless u accidentally toggled something. Not super sure but this is my understanding, all this to say that streaming your pov and shit doesn't do much

[quote=Reero]Additionally, he streams himself launching tf2 with his task manager open, and streams his executed programs at the end of each stream.[/quote]

just wanna mention that (i think) good cheats aren't separate processes, they can be injected into the program you're using them on and they'd never show up on task manager nor would they naturally pop up when you launch the game. i believe after you configure them once, they'd just be set up and stored in game memory so from a spectator pov they'd never show up unless u accidentally toggled something. Not super sure but this is my understanding, all this to say that streaming your pov and shit doesn't do much
46
#46
0 Frags +
det-he just deleted his vods from >2 months ago within the past few hours

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1liaM9ekFG2OX1n5GFKB8YwyxkiFibXuh/view?usp=sharing
this is the only one i have saved but its a majority of the first yt link dippidy posted and the gifs i posted a while back. idr the date of the vod tho

[quote=det-]he just deleted his vods from >2 months ago within the past few hours[/quote]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1liaM9ekFG2OX1n5GFKB8YwyxkiFibXuh/view?usp=sharing
this is the only one i have saved but its a majority of the first yt link dippidy posted and the gifs i posted a while back. idr the date of the vod tho
47
#47
38 Frags +

I mean cheating bans need to be more severe for sure. In EU we had azn banned for cheating for a year then banned for alting extending it to 5 years, and he came back and played 3 seasons of prem and is banned again.
I've even heard admins are possibly accepting appeals from people who have been banned for cheating 2+ times for 'good behaviour', it's a joke and completely undermines the league and the AC team.

If you want to cheat elijah play in etf2l, I hear flick needs a scout for lan.

I mean cheating bans need to be more severe for sure. In EU we had azn banned for cheating for a year then banned for alting extending it to 5 years, and he came back and played 3 seasons of prem and is banned again.
I've even heard admins are possibly accepting appeals from people who have been banned for cheating 2+ times for 'good behaviour', it's a joke and completely undermines the league and the AC team.

If you want to cheat elijah play in etf2l, I hear flick needs a scout for lan.
48
#48
16 Frags +
hannahRealistically the only thing that can be done (unless an rgl ban happens) is for the playoffs adv teams to refuse to play them and forfeit all playoffs matches vs them (which they would most likely have lost anyways) out of protest

I 100% agree. A team like fgp or something should be given the final playoff spot and forfeit out of protest. Any actions that prevent this from happening will be seen as supporting a cheater.

[quote=hannah]Realistically the only thing that can be done (unless an rgl ban happens) is for the playoffs adv teams to refuse to play them and forfeit all playoffs matches vs them (which they would most likely have lost anyways) out of protest[/quote]
I 100% agree. A team like fgp or something should be given the final playoff spot and forfeit out of protest. Any actions that prevent this from happening will be seen as supporting a cheater.
49
#49
7 Frags +

ns

ns
50
#50
45 Frags +

How nice would it be if the game had a functional anticheat as opposed to relying on an RGL skeleton crew where it is a guessing game at best, and the only way anyone even puts forth any accusation is with the game's community forums. With how advanced soft aim programs have gotten vs. how useless VAC is, no wonder random people start playing and cheating. It doesn't take a crazy level of intelligence to go undetected and honestly it wouldn't be too crazy a wager to say there's probably other undetected cheaters using even less obvious things like autodet. Like seriously compare it to any other game lol this shit has so little integrity as far as cheating goes.

How nice would it be if the game had a functional anticheat as opposed to relying on an RGL skeleton crew where it is a guessing game at best, and the only way anyone even puts forth any accusation is with the game's community forums. With how advanced soft aim programs have gotten vs. how useless VAC is, no wonder random people start playing and cheating. It doesn't take a crazy level of intelligence to go undetected and honestly it wouldn't be too crazy a wager to say there's probably other undetected cheaters using even less obvious things like autodet. Like seriously compare it to any other game lol this shit has so little integrity as far as cheating goes.
51
#51
31 Frags +
charisHow nice would it be if the game had a functional anticheat as opposed to relying on an RGL skeleton crew where it is a guessing game at best, and the only way anyone even puts forth any accusation is with the game's community forums. With how advanced soft aim programs have gotten vs. how useless VAC is, no wonder random people start playing and cheating. It doesn't take a crazy level of intelligence to go undetected and honestly it wouldn't be too crazy a wager to say there's probably other undetected cheaters using even less obvious things like autodet. Like seriously compare it to any other game lol this shit has so little integrity as far as cheating goes.

This is a very important post. Please normalize suspicion. When cepi was blatantly triggerbotting the only reason gungon watched his demo was because Della kept talking about how a person who never plays comp did 87% acc on 300 dpm vs advanced players. No one in that pug was even a little suspicious that a pubber did that.

Like charis said, there are 100% other people cheating that are just not as high profile as elijah. Take aimer for instance, people caught him using the no scope script and he immediately deleted vods and changed his twitch (btw he also doesn't stream under the tf2 category, kind of weird !). It's possible he only ever used it for as he claims a few seconds on accident but it's equally as likely that he's lying and potentially still using it but hiding it better. This isn't to say aimer is definitely cheating but I feel like he's a person very few people are even a little suspicious about. There is nothing wrong with being suspicious of people doing very weird things. Our game requires more people to be more suspicious of cheaters, not every one is going to be as blatant as cepi and feno. (btw people still watched their demos and couldn't tell they were cheating)

[quote=charis]How nice would it be if the game had a functional anticheat as opposed to relying on an RGL skeleton crew where it is a guessing game at best, and the only way anyone even puts forth any accusation is with the game's community forums. With how advanced soft aim programs have gotten vs. how useless VAC is, no wonder random people start playing and cheating. It doesn't take a crazy level of intelligence to go undetected and honestly it wouldn't be too crazy a wager to say there's probably other undetected cheaters using even less obvious things like autodet. Like seriously compare it to any other game lol this shit has so little integrity as far as cheating goes.[/quote]
This is a very important post. Please normalize suspicion. When cepi was blatantly triggerbotting the only reason gungon watched his demo was because Della kept talking about how a person who never plays comp did 87% acc on 300 dpm vs advanced players. No one in that pug was even a little suspicious that a pubber did that.

Like charis said, there are 100% other people cheating that are just not as high profile as elijah. Take aimer for instance, people caught him using the no scope script and he immediately deleted vods and changed his twitch (btw he also doesn't stream under the tf2 category, kind of weird !). It's possible he only ever used it for as he claims a few seconds on accident but it's equally as likely that he's lying and potentially still using it but hiding it better. This isn't to say aimer is definitely cheating but I feel like he's a person very few people are even a little suspicious about. There is nothing wrong with being suspicious of people doing very weird things. Our game requires more people to be more suspicious of cheaters, not every one is going to be as blatant as cepi and feno. (btw people still watched their demos and couldn't tell they were cheating)
52
#52
17 Frags +

Thoughts on 5th seed moving up?

Thoughts on 5th seed moving up?
53
#53
17 Frags +
mopsyThoughts on 5th seed moving up?

you’re cooking rn

[quote=mopsy]Thoughts on 5th seed moving up?[/quote]
you’re cooking rn
54
#54
34 Frags +

It may be a bit of an appeal to authority, but it's definitely telling how many scout mains who specifically care about aim theory stuff have come to the same conclusions about this dude. I personally don't know shit about cheats, but as a demo main I was able to tell mxr was autodetting after watching him for maybe 10 minutes. It's pretty easy to tell in a lot of cases when something just feels off/unnatural, even if it's difficult to prove. To my eyes, elijah looks very fishy but not quite as blatant as mxr, but I fully suspect that he looks just as blatant to the aforementioned hitscan aim experts.

It may be a bit of an appeal to authority, but it's definitely telling how many scout mains who specifically care about aim theory stuff have come to the same conclusions about this dude. I personally don't know shit about cheats, but as a demo main I was able to tell mxr was autodetting after watching him for maybe 10 minutes. It's pretty easy to tell in a lot of cases when something just feels off/unnatural, even if it's difficult to prove. To my eyes, elijah looks very fishy but not quite as blatant as mxr, but I fully suspect that he looks just as blatant to the aforementioned hitscan aim experts.
55
#55
17 Frags +

who remembers that one season of RGL where cheater team didn't get banned until grands
calling it happens again lol

who remembers that one season of RGL where cheater team didn't get banned until grands
calling it happens again lol
56
#56
27 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RBoQLKs7vY

what do you guys think elijah's canon event was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RBoQLKs7vY

what do you guys think elijah's canon event was
57
#57
51 Frags +

i encourage anyone who thinks elijah is legit to watch frag videos of the best aiming scouts in the game and go frame by frame and see how long it takes for them to react to jumps/surfs/strafe changes. no one has these clips legitimately

i encourage anyone who thinks elijah is legit to watch frag videos of the best aiming scouts in the game and go frame by frame and see how long it takes for them to react to jumps/surfs/strafe changes. no one has these clips legitimately
58
#58
18 Frags +

Golly!

Golly!
59
#59
6 Frags +

gg

gg
60
#60
-29 Frags +

legit cheaters love to post diatribes and novel length forum posts trying to explain every single thing they could do to show they are not cheating instead of doing what actual legit players do when they get called a cheater which is to type "LOL" and move on with life

legit cheaters love to post diatribes and novel length forum posts trying to explain every single thing they could do to show they are not cheating instead of doing what actual legit players do when they get called a cheater which is to type "LOL" and move on with life
1 2 3 4 5 ⋅⋅ 8
Please sign in through STEAM to post a comment.