Upvote Upvoted 9 Downvote Downvoted
sniper class limit 0
1
#1
0 Frags +

Has a full on class ban ever been considered or tried? Because it definitely sounds unprecedented. It can be tough to not start to dislike the class as a whole after being forced into anti-sniper positioning and a potential round reset just because 1 player on the other team wanted to make a play and kept stalling for one more peek.
A lot of sniper rage comes from not being able to effectively counterplay, but even with proper counterplay it just feels like the game slows to a halt and isn't really engaging for anyone when the "stalemate breaker" class is active. Additionally sniper v combat matchups are pretty unfun with the sniper either being uncontestable or a free pick, and neither kill feels very fair to the one who died
On the flip side the class is relied on a lot in higher divisions as a means to break well-established holds, many of which take a ton of coordination and effort to crack. Also while in my opinion any weapon, map, etc bans should only be judged on whether they add or take away from the format, on some level it does feel weird to completely eliminate a class
All that being said I just wanted to ask if this was even something people have talked about and more importantly what would the game look like/play like without sniper to rely on?

Has a full on class ban ever been considered or tried? Because it definitely sounds unprecedented. It can be tough to not start to dislike the class as a whole after being forced into anti-sniper positioning and a potential round reset just because 1 player on the other team wanted to make a play and kept stalling for one more peek.
A lot of sniper rage comes from not being able to effectively counterplay, but even with proper counterplay it just feels like the game slows to a halt and isn't really engaging for anyone when the "stalemate breaker" class is active. Additionally sniper v combat matchups are pretty unfun with the sniper either being uncontestable or a free pick, and neither kill feels very fair to the one who died
On the flip side the class is relied on a lot in higher divisions as a means to break well-established holds, many of which take a ton of coordination and effort to crack. Also while in my opinion any weapon, map, etc bans should only be judged on whether they add or take away from the format, on some level it does [i]feel[/i] weird to completely eliminate a class
All that being said I just wanted to ask if this was even something people have talked about and more importantly what would the game look like/play like without sniper to rely on?
2
#2
8 Frags +

in a game where level 3 sentries cause the round timer to run out more than anything else your first thought is to remove snipers?

in a game where level 3 sentries cause the round timer to run out more than anything else your first thought is to remove snipers?
3
#3
37 Frags +

i think 6 soldiers would be fun

i think 6 soldiers would be fun
4
#4
12 Frags +

ban every offclass. all of them. simple.

ban every offclass. all of them. simple.
5
#5
2 Frags +
toads_tfi think 6 soldiers would be fun

It damn sure was in Quake 1 Team Fortress

[quote=toads_tf]i think 6 soldiers would be fun[/quote]

It damn sure was in Quake 1 Team Fortress
6
#6
28 Frags +

u should be able to have as many spies as u want

u should be able to have as many spies as u want
7
#7
-27 Frags +

You run into a "rich get richer" scenario where people who have uber ad get to utilize it more consistently if snipers were banned. Lots of mid-to-last pushes where defenders are at full disad are hoping for a sniper-out-of-spawn clutch play who can get OHKO picks without having to commit. If the sniper doesn't get the med but still makes a pick, that can still change the tide of the last fight by making it 5v6. Even his presence can cause a team to pop earlier than they wanted, and a few seconds of wasted uber can be huge for a defending team.

I think without sniper, we would just see the teams who are winning win even more.

You run into a "rich get richer" scenario where people who have uber ad get to utilize it more consistently if snipers were banned. Lots of mid-to-last pushes where defenders are at full disad are hoping for a sniper-out-of-spawn clutch play who can get OHKO picks without having to commit. If the sniper doesn't get the med but still makes a pick, that can still change the tide of the last fight by making it 5v6. Even his presence can cause a team to pop earlier than they wanted, and a few seconds of wasted uber can be huge for a defending team.

I think without sniper, we would just see the teams who are winning win even more.
8
#8
24 Frags +

what if instead of banning snipers, we banned all the good snipers, we should probably start with rain of light, hear that guy is a menace!

what if instead of banning snipers, we banned all the good snipers, we should probably start with rain of light, hear that guy is a menace!
9
#9
-14 Frags +
ElenaManetta I think without sniper, we would just see the teams who are winning win even more.

I think that's the point of the thread, actually

[quote=ElenaManetta] I think without sniper, we would just see the teams who are winning win even more.[/quote]

I think that's the point of the thread, actually
10
#10
16 Frags +
chellElenaManetta I think without sniper, we would just see the teams who are winning win even more.
I think that's the point of the thread, actually

no the point of the thread is that sniper sucks and makes the game unfun

[quote=chell][quote=ElenaManetta] I think without sniper, we would just see the teams who are winning win even more.[/quote]

I think that's the point of the thread, actually[/quote]
no the point of the thread is that sniper sucks and makes the game unfun
11
#11
9 Frags +
ElenaManettaYou run into a "rich get richer" scenario where people who have uber ad get to utilize it more consistently if snipers were banned. Lots of mid-to-last pushes where defenders are at full disad are hoping for a sniper-out-of-spawn clutch play who can get OHKO picks without having to commit.

sniper in spawn door on an impending disad push is as reliable a way of dropping the med as a sticky trap on the doorway, which is to say the attackers just need to not milk for no reason and its not very threatening
the reason people run sniper in spawn door on disad is because its so low risk & low effort theres little reason not to have a shot charged just in case you get a free 150 between flashes or a pick, then switch to pootis or back to scout

[quote=ElenaManetta]You run into a "rich get richer" scenario where people who have uber ad get to utilize it more consistently if snipers were banned. Lots of mid-to-last pushes where defenders are at full disad are hoping for a sniper-out-of-spawn clutch play who can get OHKO picks without having to commit.[/quote]
sniper in spawn door on an impending disad push is as reliable a way of dropping the med as a sticky trap on the doorway, which is to say the attackers just need to not milk for no reason and its not very threatening
the reason people run sniper in spawn door on disad is because its so low risk & low effort theres little reason not to have a shot charged just in case you get a free 150 between flashes or a pick, then switch to pootis or back to scout
12
#12
9 Frags +

I think too many teams are content with single saccing a player to go sniper, then just wait for their sniper to get a pick instead of doing proper sacs and double sacs which leads to boring stalemates. It's a lot more fun to defend a double sac then try to push into second.

Also obligatory HL is shit but HL will be a lot less shit if sniper was banned.

I think too many teams are content with single saccing a player to go sniper, then just wait for their sniper to get a pick instead of doing proper sacs and double sacs which leads to boring stalemates. It's a lot more fun to defend a double sac then try to push into second.

Also obligatory HL is shit but HL will be a lot less shit if sniper was banned.
13
#13
11 Frags +

Would make it easier to push into last when you have advantage, and probably harder when you don't (less strategic variety).

The reason you see consistent shutter snipers in spawn isn't just 'cause it's low risk, but it's the only reliable way to try to prevent sentries from getting spammed down pre-push, and prevent the other team from milking in partway without using. Any other attempt by the defense isn't gonna have the health to stop either and not risk feeding (tanked players vs. not tanked players), and sticky traps on doors have some RNG that you trapped the correct one.

Play long enough on a team with a flank/scouts that don't care to play sniper on last ever and watch as teams slowly realize they can bare minimum peek almost every door for free for info as long as they're tanked, then eventually you'll never have a sentry and ubers will start halfway into your last. Only argument otherwise is maybe lower division teams aren't good enough to ever realize or try these things, which I cannot speak to.

For pushing in a stalemate, the biggest advantage you have against sentry guns is they aren't mobile and can't stuff doors they can't see (unless perfect central placement like process, for example), and not only is that great for snipers that don't need to go deep, but being able to go offensive sniper forces the defense to go into forward holds that tend to make it much easier to sack in the first place (less distance to get to the medic once you find a way in).

I think a hypothetical, never will happen but interesting to think about, sniper limit 0 could definitely benefit lower divisions; I'm sure we all have flashbacks to product games we've played/watched where C-Tier snipers dominate because the opposing teams have C-Tier coordination with C-Tier Rocket Jumping mechanics. Maybe process weeks where one teams flank scout had a record k/d because they were on sniper for 40% of the game. Those benefits decrease/disappear pretty quickly as you increase the skill level of the players, though.

Would make it easier to push into last when you have advantage, and probably harder when you don't (less strategic variety).

The reason you see consistent shutter snipers in spawn isn't just 'cause it's low risk, but it's the only reliable way to try to prevent sentries from getting spammed down pre-push, and prevent the other team from milking in partway without using. Any other attempt by the defense isn't gonna have the health to stop either and not risk feeding (tanked players vs. not tanked players), and sticky traps on doors have some RNG that you trapped the [i]correct[/i] one.

Play long enough on a team with a flank/scouts that don't care to play sniper on last ever and watch as teams slowly realize they can bare minimum peek almost every door for free for info as long as they're tanked, then eventually you'll never have a sentry and ubers will start halfway into your last. Only argument otherwise is maybe lower division teams aren't good enough to ever realize or try these things, which I cannot speak to.

For pushing in a stalemate, the biggest advantage you have against sentry guns is they aren't mobile and can't stuff doors they can't see (unless perfect central placement like process, for example), and not only is that great for snipers that don't need to go deep, but being able to go offensive sniper forces the defense to go into forward holds that tend to make it much easier to sack in the first place (less distance to get to the medic once you find a way in).

I think a hypothetical, never will happen but interesting to think about, sniper limit 0 could definitely benefit lower divisions; I'm sure we all have flashbacks to product games we've played/watched where C-Tier snipers dominate because the opposing teams have C-Tier coordination with C-Tier Rocket Jumping mechanics. Maybe process weeks where one teams flank scout had a record k/d because they were on sniper for 40% of the game. Those benefits decrease/disappear pretty quickly as you increase the skill level of the players, though.
14
#14
27 Frags +

i think we should break snipers legs and put him in a wheel chair. imagine u are holding process last and they are pushing lobby and u push ur sniper down the ramp on the left and he rolls all the way into 5 and headshots their med.

i think we should break snipers legs and put him in a wheel chair. imagine u are holding process last and they are pushing lobby and u push ur sniper down the ramp on the left and he rolls all the way into 5 and headshots their med.
15
#15
2 Frags +

I don't think just sniper limit 0 has been tried but in AU they had a summer brawl cup with no off class whatsoever iirc.

I don't think just sniper limit 0 has been tried but in AU they had a summer brawl cup with no off class whatsoever iirc.
16
#16
5 Frags +

What Opti says makes way more sense than just removing sniper. All offclasses are annoying remove all of them (engie blows) and just play cookie cutter.

What Opti says makes way more sense than just removing sniper. All offclasses are annoying remove all of them (engie blows) and just play cookie cutter.
17
#17
0 Frags +
DewItban every offclass. all of them. simple.

Has this ever been tried?

[quote=DewIt]ban every offclass. all of them. simple.[/quote]
Has this ever been tried?
18
#18
7 Frags +
LupusWhat Opti says makes way more sense than just removing sniper. All offclasses are annoying remove all of them (engie blows) and just play cookie cutter.

Pootis should be allowed. Is honourable class.

[quote=Lupus]What Opti says makes way more sense than just removing sniper. All offclasses are annoying remove all of them (engie blows) and just play cookie cutter.[/quote]

Pootis should be allowed. Is honourable class.
19
#19
4 Frags +

okay Pootis gets the pass

okay Pootis gets the pass
20
#20
-1 Frags +

I think it's more an issue of the gamemode than the classes. Engineer is much more mid if he can't stand in spawn to swap.

I think it's more an issue of the gamemode than the classes. Engineer is much more mid if he can't stand in spawn to swap.
21
#21
11 Frags +
LupusWhat Opti says makes way more sense than just removing sniper. All offclasses are annoying remove all of them (engie blows) and just play cookie cutter.

the last thing we as a society need is 500 more team fortress 2 youtube videos made by degens about how sixes players are going to door to door shooting children in the crib because their dad played a heavy in a pub

[quote=Lupus]What Opti says makes way more sense than just removing sniper. All offclasses are annoying remove all of them (engie blows) and just play cookie cutter.[/quote]
the last thing we as a society need is 500 more team fortress 2 youtube videos made by degens about how sixes players are going to door to door shooting children in the crib because their dad played a heavy in a pub
22
#22
6 Frags +

ok but those children had it coming

ok but those children had it coming
23
#23
0 Frags +

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/5b955e29-49c4-4f80-9396-1821078ccfbb/d71v63r-2f07f8b6-d0c8-4685-a1b8-e8d740d141f8.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzViOTU1ZTI5LTQ5YzQtNGY4MC05Mzk2LTE4MjEwNzhjY2ZiYlwvZDcxdjYzci0yZjA3ZjhiNi1kMGM4LTQ2ODUtYTFiOC1lOGQ3NDBkMTQxZjgucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.a8Dt6lE75fa3JV9ITRQHRfpILhhX-HHdd6OmgJmkWs0

[img]https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/5b955e29-49c4-4f80-9396-1821078ccfbb/d71v63r-2f07f8b6-d0c8-4685-a1b8-e8d740d141f8.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzViOTU1ZTI5LTQ5YzQtNGY4MC05Mzk2LTE4MjEwNzhjY2ZiYlwvZDcxdjYzci0yZjA3ZjhiNi1kMGM4LTQ2ODUtYTFiOC1lOGQ3NDBkMTQxZjgucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.a8Dt6lE75fa3JV9ITRQHRfpILhhX-HHdd6OmgJmkWs0[/img]
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