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The Case for Unlocks
1
#1
0 Frags +

Since it was unbanned, Bonk has received a massive rework. Based on damage taken, a player will be slowed to snail speed when it fades. You can't block point when it's active, and using it to get behind results in you getting twoshot because you move at heavy speed or just being ignored because the speed reduction makes it useless. When they ran unlock testing in Invite pugs, the only impact Bonk even had was taking a bit of spam away before a roamer could sac.

In short, Bonk no longer allows you to go behind without getting punished and encourages teamplay, but the people who weren't involved with testing made enough of a fuss that we all forgot about it. Additionally, there still are unlocks that require testing after their reworks.

For example, the main thing that broke the Quick-Fix was its buildrate, but it now builds slower than Kritz. It no longer gets the max buildrate without damage being taken, as Valve patched that out. Its extra healing and mobility could still break the game and would require testing, and honestly if it's that broken it wouldn't take more than one game to figure that out. (For the record, I expect it would break 6s, but it should still be tested.)

With the Cow Manger, the primary complaint is the infinite ammo. The theory is that it slows down the game by giving more ammo to your demo, yet the people who ran it were roamers that usually got their ammo on the flank. I'd be curious to see a comparison of how long stalemates lasted with the Mangler versus how long they lasted after it. Honestly the only thing that's annoying about this weapon is the chargeshot when your teammate doesn't call it out. The fact that it can oneshot a light class is pretty brutal, but it's sort of risky because if you do it at the wrong time you just instantly die. I remember at one point Rekuso unbound the charge shot.

From my understanding, the Base Jumper was banned because being able to redeploy it made a soldier really hard to shoot, but you can't redeploy it. It might break the game in terms of allowing a soldier to float above any chokepoint, but that's a lot to give up Gunboats for. This is something that could again easily be tested in a few pugs/scrims.

The Cleaver is banned for increasing spam, but I suspect it might just be in a similar spot to the Wrap Assassin where that spam isn't really that impactful. This is something that, again, requires testing.

Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol is a bit controversial. The health regen was nerfed significantly, but it still boasts higher DPS than stock. The main reason people want it gone is that it's a direct upgrade, but Gunboats, any melee ever, Iron Bomber, Crossbow etc. are also direct upgrades. Scattergun is still a lot more consistent than the pistol, so the impact of this item would be negligible with the rework.

A lot of items in this game genuinely need to be banned (Wrangler, Vaccinator, Mad Milk, etc.), but I still think that unlocks should be banned on the basis of breaking the game.

Since it was unbanned, Bonk has received a massive rework. Based on damage taken, a player will be slowed to snail speed when it fades. You can't block point when it's active, and using it to get behind results in you getting twoshot because you move at heavy speed or just being ignored because the speed reduction makes it useless. When they ran unlock testing in Invite pugs, the only impact Bonk even had was taking a bit of spam away before a roamer could sac.

In short, Bonk no longer allows you to go behind without getting punished and encourages teamplay, but the people who weren't involved with testing made enough of a fuss that we all forgot about it. Additionally, there still are unlocks that require testing after their reworks.

For example, the main thing that broke the Quick-Fix was its buildrate, but it now builds slower than Kritz. It no longer gets the max buildrate without damage being taken, as Valve patched that out. Its extra healing and mobility could still break the game and would require testing, and honestly if it's that broken it wouldn't take more than one game to figure that out. (For the record, I expect it would break 6s, but it should still be tested.)

With the Cow Manger, the primary complaint is the infinite ammo. The theory is that it slows down the game by giving more ammo to your demo, yet the people who ran it were roamers that usually got their ammo on the flank. I'd be curious to see a comparison of how long stalemates lasted with the Mangler versus how long they lasted after it. Honestly the only thing that's annoying about this weapon is the chargeshot when your teammate doesn't call it out. The fact that it can oneshot a light class is pretty brutal, but it's sort of risky because if you do it at the wrong time you just instantly die. I remember at one point Rekuso unbound the charge shot.

From my understanding, the Base Jumper was banned because being able to redeploy it made a soldier really hard to shoot, but you can't redeploy it. It might break the game in terms of allowing a soldier to float above any chokepoint, but that's a lot to give up Gunboats for. This is something that could again easily be tested in a few pugs/scrims.

The Cleaver is banned for increasing spam, but I suspect it might just be in a similar spot to the Wrap Assassin where that spam isn't really that impactful. This is something that, again, requires testing.

Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol is a bit controversial. The health regen was nerfed significantly, but it still boasts higher DPS than stock. The main reason people want it gone is that it's a direct upgrade, but Gunboats, any melee ever, Iron Bomber, Crossbow etc. are also direct upgrades. Scattergun is still a lot more consistent than the pistol, so the impact of this item would be negligible with the rework.

A lot of items in this game genuinely need to be banned (Wrangler, Vaccinator, Mad Milk, etc.), but I still think that unlocks should be banned on the basis of breaking the game.
2
#2
10 Frags +

Dope thread

Dope thread
3
#3
21 Frags +

ban wrap assasin tbh

ban wrap assasin tbh
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#4
53 Frags +

b4nny sub thread.

b4nny sub thread.
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#5
35 Frags +

Three things I genuinely have to say about your things.

  • The main thing about the cow mangler isn't that it has infinite ammo, it's just that the charge shot exists, which makes using it just a low risk but high reward type of play. Obviously you can make the argument that the charge shot leaves you without any ammo and you can get caught with your pants down, but if you actually use that weapon when you aren't in harms way you likely aren't going to get punished for using it.
  • Quick fix would be absolute aids to play against for like anyone. The main thing about the quick fix wasn't the faster build rate, it just made it that much more annoying to play against. The issue about that weapon was that the medic could basically counter jump away from any aggression which just made dying to sacs a non issue except in areas where you don't have much space to work with, and even then the counterjump can probably throw off the sac quite a bit.
  • The cleaver is like genuinely a powerful unlock. You can't compare it with the wrap assassin because the wrap assassin is really just the more balanced version of the cleaver. The cleaver has 5s recharge time compared to the wrap assassin's 7.5s recharge time, not even looking at the fact that the cleaver does 50 base initial damage compared to the wrap assassin's base 55 damage in total including the bleed damage. Obviously you give up a second hitscan weapon for this spam, but the spam itself can't be ignored for how good it actually is.

In conclusion, I believe that you're glossing over or forgetting the main issue of at least why those three weapons are just banned.

Three things I genuinely have to say about your things.
[list]
[*] The main thing about the cow mangler isn't that it has infinite ammo, it's just that the charge shot exists, which makes using it just a low risk but high reward type of play. Obviously you can make the argument that the charge shot leaves you without any ammo and you can get caught with your pants down, but if you actually use that weapon when you aren't in harms way you likely aren't going to get punished for using it.
[*] Quick fix would be absolute aids to play against for like anyone. The main thing about the quick fix wasn't the faster build rate, it just made it that much more annoying to play against. The issue about that weapon was that the medic could basically counter jump away from any aggression which just made dying to sacs a non issue except in areas where you don't have much space to work with, and even then the counterjump can probably throw off the sac quite a bit.
[*] The cleaver is like genuinely a powerful unlock. You can't compare it with the wrap assassin because the wrap assassin is really just the more balanced version of the cleaver. The cleaver has 5s recharge time compared to the wrap assassin's 7.5s recharge time, not even looking at the fact that the cleaver does 50 base initial damage compared to the wrap assassin's base 55 damage in total including the bleed damage. Obviously you give up a second hitscan weapon for this spam, but the spam itself can't be ignored for how good it actually is.
[/list]
In conclusion, I believe that you're glossing over or forgetting the main issue of at least why those three weapons are just banned.
6
#6
-4 Frags +

factsmachine lft invite

factsmachine lft invite
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#7
33 Frags +

imagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic

imagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic
8
#8
21 Frags +

just because it isn't broken/op doesn't mean a weapon should be unbanned. you have to also take into consideration how it makes the game more or less smooth/fun to play as well. I dont think any of these weapons would add anything positive to the 6s format

just because it isn't broken/op doesn't mean a weapon should be unbanned. you have to also take into consideration how it makes the game more or less smooth/fun to play as well. I dont think any of these weapons would add anything positive to the 6s format
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#9
0 Frags +
Virgilimagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic

That's a powerful play, you bomb in with your medic, kill their medic, and jump out again.

[quote=Virgil]imagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic[/quote]

That's a powerful play, you bomb in with your medic, kill their medic, and jump out again.
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#10
12 Frags +
_KermitVirgilimagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic
That's a powerful play, you bomb in with your medic, kill their medic, and jump out again.

i think that just might make us an esport

[quote=_Kermit][quote=Virgil]imagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic[/quote]

That's a powerful play, you bomb in with your medic, kill their medic, and jump out again.[/quote]
i think that just might make us an esport
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#11
9 Frags +
Virgilimagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic

Not quite as epic as having 20hp, healing a jumping soldier, and dying to fall damage

[quote=Virgil]imagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic[/quote]
Not quite as epic as having 20hp, healing a jumping soldier, and dying to fall damage
12
#12
19 Frags +
Virgilimagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic

I would unironically rather play Highlander Medic and drop three times to facestabs every map than have to go through the Quick Fix era again.

[quote=Virgil]imagine trying to buff ur roamer with quickfix and he bombs in and then ur in too that'd be fucking epic[/quote]

I would unironically rather play Highlander Medic and drop three times to facestabs every map than have to go through the Quick Fix era again.
13
#13
11 Frags +

they should just make a plugin that turns cow mangler into a reskin tbh. i like the way the weapon looks, i like the projectile, the angle, and its always nice seeing scouts evaporate in the air after i kill them. RGL When?

they should just make a plugin that turns cow mangler into a reskin tbh. i like the way the weapon looks, i like the projectile, the angle, and its always nice seeing scouts evaporate in the air after i kill them. RGL When?
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#14
1 Frags +

idk i think that cow mangler should get unbanned as like a small buff or as like an alternative to the gunboats always apply plugin that we never got

idk i think that cow mangler should get unbanned as like a small buff or as like an alternative to the gunboats always apply plugin that we never got
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#15
2 Frags +

i dont think having more unlocks whitelisted is a good thing in and of itself, and i think its better to approach unbanning unlocks not by seeing if there's reasonable counterplay but rather if its inclusion is actually fun to play
that being said theres definitely unlocks that could be retested like base jumper or bonk

i dont think having more unlocks whitelisted is a good thing in and of itself, and i think its better to approach unbanning unlocks not by seeing if there's reasonable counterplay but rather if its inclusion is actually fun to play
that being said theres definitely unlocks that could be retested like base jumper or bonk
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#16
23 Frags +

the cleaver is 90 damage spam every 6 seconds that you literally can not see coming, replacing a weapon that effectively does nothing. very cool thread

the cleaver is 90 damage spam every 6 seconds that you literally can not see coming, replacing a weapon that effectively does nothing. very cool thread
17
#17
27 Frags +

I feel like so many of these unlock threads and silly polls over the years stem from people just straight up not remembering/experiencing why the hell some of these things aren't allowed in the first place.

Some things are whatever, like the solemn vow eventually being unbanned, but cleaver/base jumper/quickfix? Right, let's double check if giving scouts another spam tool/letting soldiers live in the skybox/letting medics fly with their soldiers to mid gives us a positive experience.

Like come on, the cow mangler was allowed just 2 years ago and has technically only gotten stronger since then. Do we have that many new, ignorant people that we have to go through a ~testing process~ once again, or are specific unlock praisers just hoping enough people who voted the opposite way have left over the years?

Point being, you'd think that with how little tf2 gets updated, we wouldnt have as many testing phases/dumb weapon pollings as we actually do over the years.

I feel like so many of these unlock threads and silly polls over the years stem from people just straight up not remembering/experiencing why the hell some of these things aren't allowed in the first place.

Some things are whatever, like the solemn vow eventually being unbanned, but cleaver/base jumper/quickfix? Right, let's double check if giving scouts another spam tool/letting soldiers live in the skybox/letting medics fly with their soldiers to mid gives us a positive experience.

Like come on, the cow mangler was allowed just 2 years ago and has [url=https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/July_25,_2019_Patch]technically only gotten stronger[/url] since then. Do we have that many new, ignorant people that we have to go through a ~testing process~ once again, or are specific unlock praisers just hoping enough people who voted the opposite way have left over the years?

Point being, you'd think that with how little tf2 gets updated, we wouldnt have as many testing phases/dumb weapon pollings as we actually do over the years.
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#18
-4 Frags +

just ban players for right clicking with the cow mangler or give soldiers infinite ammo with the plugin ty

just ban players for right clicking with the cow mangler or give soldiers infinite ammo with the plugin ty
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#19
-8 Frags +

Cow mangler makes it bearable to fight scouts

Cow mangler makes it bearable to fight scouts
20
#20
16 Frags +

Build rate is not the only problem, the quickfix heal rate is super strong, valve has no fucking clue how good 140% heal rate is

Build rate is not the only problem, the quickfix heal rate is super strong, valve has no fucking clue how good 140% heal rate is
21
#21
9 Frags +
sagevalve has no fucking clue how good 140% heal rate is

The heal rate is fine in casual, the issue is that in 6s you don't have the manpower to outdamage a QF uber unless someone literally walks onto like a 4+ sticky trap and dies instantly.

[quote=sage]valve has no fucking clue how good 140% heal rate is[/quote]
The heal rate is fine in casual, the issue is that in 6s you don't have the manpower to outdamage a QF uber unless someone literally walks onto like a 4+ sticky trap and dies instantly.
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#22
-3 Frags +

My thing with bonk is, when a soldier rocket jumps behind your entire team what do you do?, you say in mumble soldier is behind and then as a team you play around that, I don't see why you can't just treat bonk the same way especially when it now actually punishes you for going behind if caught, I see no reason to keep it banned and I feel like unbanning it wouldn't result in drastic imbalances in the fun of the game.

My thing with bonk is, when a soldier rocket jumps behind your entire team what do you do?, you say in mumble soldier is behind and then as a team you play around that, I don't see why you can't just treat bonk the same way especially when it now actually punishes you for going behind if caught, I see no reason to keep it banned and I feel like unbanning it wouldn't result in drastic imbalances in the fun of the game.
23
#23
-2 Frags +

also just like any change, no matter how good in theory it is the best we will get is a shitty pre season cup where no one takes it seriously, and then none of the changes are implemented, just like every single map / weapon cup in history, the only way you get real testing in is by league admins incorporating changes for an actual entire season

also just like any change, no matter how good in theory it is the best we will get is a shitty pre season cup where no one takes it seriously, and then none of the changes are implemented, just like every single map / weapon cup in history, the only way you get real testing in is by league admins incorporating changes for an actual entire season
24
#24
21 Frags +

Unlocks aren't balanced for competitive and never will be regardless of how much testing we do. Imo unlocks should be banned until they have been proven to add something beneficial to the game, not the other way around.

Unlocks aren't balanced for competitive and never will be regardless of how much testing we do. Imo unlocks should be banned until they have been proven to add something beneficial to the game, not the other way around.
25
#25
4 Frags +
sageBuild rate is not the only problem, the quickfix heal rate is super strong, valve has no fucking clue how good 140% heal rate is

this effect is more pronounced with high health pools, which means that weird highpander stuff with running heavy to mid is stronger

[quote=sage]Build rate is not the only problem, the quickfix heal rate is super strong, valve has no fucking clue how good 140% heal rate is[/quote]
this effect is more pronounced with high health pools, which means that weird highpander stuff with running heavy to mid is stronger
26
#26
3 Frags +

ya everyone talks about the funny movement mechanic of the quickfix but fact is that the weapon is an auto-equip to mid at the very least and if you don't equip it you're throwing. medics will really only have to bow soldiers then just keep beaming scouts/demo who, if they play it right, can't really die cause of the crazy heal rate.

ya everyone talks about the funny movement mechanic of the quickfix but fact is that the weapon is an auto-equip to mid at the very least and if you don't equip it you're throwing. medics will really only have to bow soldiers then just keep beaming scouts/demo who, if they play it right, can't really die cause of the crazy heal rate.
27
#27
9 Frags +
kbtoMy thing with bonk is, when a soldier rocket jumps behind your entire team what do you do?, you say in mumble soldier is behind and then as a team you play around that, I don't see why you can't just treat bonk the same way especially when it now actually punishes you for going behind if caught, I see no reason to keep it banned and I feel like unbanning it wouldn't result in drastic imbalances in the fun of the game.

please dont act like "just say hes behind" counters it. teams put players behind for a reason and it creates opportunities, threatens backcaps, forces enemy team to go back etc etc. letting people do it literally for free with no effort does not add anything interesting or valuable to the game.

also they dont get punished for getting caught. in the non-bonk world you shoot someone and kill them (punished), in the bonk world you waste ur ammo on an invincible player who will eventually become slightly slower for a short time (not very punished)

please enlighten us on how free invincibility juice would make the game any better to play or watch or are we just unbanning it for the sake of impressing pubbers with more green boxes on the whitelist page?

[quote=kbto]My thing with bonk is, when a soldier rocket jumps behind your entire team what do you do?, you say in mumble soldier is behind and then as a team you play around that, I don't see why you can't just treat bonk the same way especially when it now actually punishes you for going behind if caught, I see no reason to keep it banned and I feel like unbanning it wouldn't result in drastic imbalances in the fun of the game.[/quote]
please dont act like "just say hes behind" counters it. teams put players behind for a reason and it creates opportunities, threatens backcaps, forces enemy team to go back etc etc. letting people do it literally for free with no effort does not add anything interesting or valuable to the game.

also they dont get punished for getting caught. in the non-bonk world you shoot someone and kill them (punished), in the bonk world you waste ur ammo on an invincible player who will eventually become slightly slower for a short time (not very punished)

please enlighten us on how free invincibility juice would make the game any better to play or watch or are we just unbanning it for the sake of impressing pubbers with more green boxes on the whitelist page?
28
#28
-6 Frags +

With Bonk you just shoot a couple rockets and the guy is literally slower than a heavy. That's not an exaggeration. A scout at 50% speed moves at 200 UPS, whereas a heavy moves at that same speed by default -- when he's underwater. If you really think moving at the speed of a heavy when he's swimming for 5 seconds + the 8 seconds of Bonk + the time to actually get in is strong enough to derail a team then I dunno what to tell you. Plus, a scout moving at that speed should be the easiest twoshot of anyone's life and you aren't really gonna be fast enough to threaten a backcap if anyone goes back for you.

With Bonk you just shoot a couple rockets and the guy is literally slower than a heavy. That's not an exaggeration. A scout at 50% speed moves at 200 UPS, whereas a heavy moves at that same speed by default -- when he's underwater. If you really think moving at the speed of a heavy when he's swimming for 5 seconds + the 8 seconds of Bonk + the time to actually get in is strong enough to derail a team then I dunno what to tell you. Plus, a scout moving at that speed should be the easiest twoshot of anyone's life and you aren't really gonna be fast enough to threaten a backcap if anyone goes back for you.
29
#29
9 Frags +
FactsMachine if anyone goes back for you.

yes the entire point is u are forcing people to come back to you every single time by clicking m1.
even in the worst case scenario if you get instakilled after ur 8 seconds of trolling (not gonna happen every time despite ur epic wiki anecdote), ur entire team is able to do stuff more easily in that time someone is chasing u and uve just sacced a scout while making the countersac much harder by baiting someone/several people back, from no effort of ur own.

conveniently not answering the question on how it would improve the game at all :^)

[quote=FactsMachine] if anyone goes back for you.[/quote]
yes the entire point is u are forcing people to come back to you every single time by clicking m1.
even in the worst case scenario if you get instakilled after ur 8 seconds of trolling (not gonna happen every time despite ur epic wiki anecdote), ur entire team is able to do stuff more easily in that time someone is chasing u and uve just sacced a scout while making the countersac much harder by baiting someone/several people back, from no effort of ur own.

conveniently not answering the question on how it would improve the game at all :^)
30
#30
17 Frags +

u can subvert the bonk speed debuff by spamming the movement keys perpendicular to the direction ur trying to go (a/d when going forward and back, w/s when going side to side) for anyone who doesn't know

u can subvert the bonk speed debuff by spamming the movement keys perpendicular to the direction ur trying to go (a/d when going forward and back, w/s when going side to side) for anyone who doesn't know
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