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6s role carry potential order discussion
1
#1
TFNew
0 Frags +

recently i watched thorin's series for dexerto trying to find the western LoL goat, and i noticed how he categorised the players by role and went through the different roles in order of "carry potential" (in this case, mid > bot > top > jungle > support).

this got me thinking, what do you think this list would look like in tf2 (roles ordered by carry potential, not who the goat player is)?

you could go by heal % received (with med at the bottom by default), in which case it would likely generally be pocket scout > demo > pocket soldier > flank scout > roamer > medic

however you could maybe make an argument that flank scout should be higher because scout class, or that pocket soldier should be lower because its often played pretty supportively even if youre taking a fair amount of heals. or maybe you might argue that medics or roamers outperforming their counterparts can have a bigger impact than this list takes into account.

obviously team and player playstyle can have a massive effect on this but it would be interesting to hear some people's thoughts

recently i watched thorin's series for dexerto trying to find the western LoL goat, and i noticed how he categorised the players by role and went through the different roles in order of "carry potential" (in this case, mid > bot > top > jungle > support).

this got me thinking, what do you think this list would look like in tf2 (roles ordered by carry potential, not who the goat player is)?

you could go by heal % received (with med at the bottom by default), in which case it would likely generally be [b] pocket scout > demo > pocket soldier > flank scout > roamer > medic [/b]

however you could maybe make an argument that flank scout should be higher because scout class, or that pocket soldier should be lower because its often played pretty supportively even if youre taking a fair amount of heals. or maybe you might argue that medics or roamers outperforming their counterparts can have a bigger impact than this list takes into account.

obviously team and player playstyle can have a massive effect on this but it would be interesting to hear some people's thoughts
2
#2
16 Frags +

Both scouts > demo > pocket > med > roamer

Both scouts > demo > pocket > med > roamer
3
#3
35 Frags +

I mostly agree but I think a tank demo can carry harder than flank scout (see: habib) and single handedly win games. Even though it is WAY harder to carry on roamer a good roamer makes such a huge difference I'd say it's still above med (a good med can carry very hard as well it's just the potential for a roamer to make crazy plays every life is a lot more of a game changer than a medic simply survives and hits some clutch arrows maybe). I would even go as far as to say that in terms of actual potential roamer is slightly higher than pocket just because of all the flank plays and med picks and back caps that can be made, I would say mike and blaze did more work on roamer than they would have if they were confined to pocket (mike raped on pocket too though so hard to say). In the current meta pocket is so rarely tanked and is most useful as a buffed up player to bomb in and distract and then kill players who are caught out, with shotgun it's arguable that pocket should be higher but with current meta that's just not as good as gunboats and sinking heals into demo and combo scout. With promod though pocket 100% higher shotgun pocket has insane carry potential.

Anyways with current meta my order would be: combo scout > demo > flank scout > roamer > pocket > med

I mostly agree but I think a tank demo can carry harder than flank scout (see: habib) and single handedly win games. Even though it is WAY harder to carry on roamer a good roamer makes such a huge difference I'd say it's still above med (a good med can carry very hard as well it's just the potential for a roamer to make crazy plays every life is a lot more of a game changer than a medic simply survives and hits some clutch arrows maybe). I would even go as far as to say that in terms of actual potential roamer is slightly higher than pocket just because of all the flank plays and med picks and back caps that can be made, I would say mike and blaze did more work on roamer than they would have if they were confined to pocket (mike raped on pocket too though so hard to say). In the current meta pocket is so rarely tanked and is most useful as a buffed up player to bomb in and distract and then kill players who are caught out, with shotgun it's arguable that pocket should be higher but with current meta that's just not as good as gunboats and sinking heals into demo and combo scout. With promod though pocket 100% higher shotgun pocket has insane carry potential.

Anyways with current meta my order would be: combo scout > demo > flank scout > roamer > pocket > med
4
#4
TFNew
3 Frags +

i actually agree that roamer has a higher carry potential than pocket, just most players dont reach that potential. mike showed what a roamer constantly making plays can do (though tbf he did take more heals than most roamers would)

i actually agree that roamer has a higher carry [i] potential [/i] than pocket, just most players dont reach that potential. mike showed what a roamer constantly making plays can do (though tbf he did take more heals than most roamers would)
5
#5
30 Frags +

demoman has 12 bullets

demoman has 12 bullets
6
#6
10 Frags +

theres actually a huge gap on a team between passable medic and good medic, like you can physically feel the difference 100 extra healing per minute and 3 more ubers does to the game

if theres anything ive learned from this season its that if you have a medic who can hit bows mid-fight or airshot bows, they will drag your dumb ass kicking and screaming to an uber exchange 4k

shoutouts to starka

theres actually a huge gap on a team between passable medic and good medic, like you can physically feel the difference 100 extra healing per minute and 3 more ubers does to the game

if theres anything ive learned from this season its that if you have a medic who can hit bows mid-fight or airshot bows, they will drag your dumb ass kicking and screaming to an uber exchange 4k

shoutouts to starka
7
#7
5 Frags +
Matthesdemoman has 12 bullets
[quote=Matthes]demoman has 12 bullets[/quote]
8
#8
-7 Frags +

Tbh, it's not class dependent but player dependent. Any class with a good player can carry a team with DPM frags or even calls and positioning micro.

Tbh, it's not class dependent but player dependent. Any class with a good player can carry a team with DPM frags or even calls and positioning micro.
9
#9
-8 Frags +

medic has a higher carry potential than flank scout because alpha medic comms can get an entire team in sync with each other, same for all combo players

medic has a higher carry potential than flank scout because alpha medic comms can get an entire team in sync with each other, same for all combo players
10
#10
-9 Frags +

The reason why I think roamer is lower than med is because you can have a roamer be absolutely worthless and still win but if your med is absolutely worthless then you just get 5-0d.

The reason why I think roamer is lower than med is because you can have a roamer be absolutely worthless and still win but if your med is absolutely worthless then you just get 5-0d.
11
#11
29 Frags +
alfaThe reason why I think roamer is lower than med is because you can have a roamer be absolutely worthless and still win but if your med is absolutely worthless then you just get 5-0d.

That's the opposite of "carry potential" doe, that's the potential the class has to drag your team down.

[quote=alfa]The reason why I think roamer is lower than med is because you can have a roamer be absolutely worthless and still win but if your med is absolutely worthless then you just get 5-0d.[/quote]
That's the opposite of "carry potential" doe, that's the potential the class has to drag your team down.
12
#12
-15 Frags +
CollaidealfaThe reason why I think roamer is lower than med is because you can have a roamer be absolutely worthless and still win but if your med is absolutely worthless then you just get 5-0d.That's the opposite of "carry potential" doe, that's the potential the class has to drag your team down.

To me carry means being consistently good which is much harder to do on roamer as some of its gameplay is really map dependant and some games you just can't possibly do anything because scout class. If this was promod TF2, soldier = scout.

[quote=Collaide][quote=alfa]The reason why I think roamer is lower than med is because you can have a roamer be absolutely worthless and still win but if your med is absolutely worthless then you just get 5-0d.[/quote]
That's the opposite of "carry potential" doe, that's the potential the class has to drag your team down.[/quote]

To me carry means being consistently good which is much harder to do on roamer as some of its gameplay is really map dependant and some games you just can't possibly do anything because scout class. If this was promod TF2, soldier = scout.
13
#13
2 Frags +

It really depends on whether you count "carry potential" purely on how much work the player is doing where obviously scouts and demo are going to be better or you're counting it on how much impact you have on the game with how you play.

Imo pocket soldier is the class where if ur having a good or bad day it has the least impact on whether your team wins or loses, more so than med or roamer. You might still outfrag your roamer but its very easy to see how your mistakes can lose you rounds on roamer, on pocket there are times when you can be fucking up and it kind of feels like you're just there. That said, you still can have a pretty big impact on any class so this isn't to say that the class is useless or anything like that.

It really depends on whether you count "carry potential" purely on how much work the player is doing where obviously scouts and demo are going to be better or you're counting it on how much impact you have on the game with how you play.

Imo pocket soldier is the class where if ur having a good or bad day it has the least impact on whether your team wins or loses, more so than med or roamer. You might still outfrag your roamer but its very easy to see how your mistakes can lose you rounds on roamer, on pocket there are times when you can be fucking up and it kind of feels like you're just there. That said, you still can have a pretty big impact on any class so this isn't to say that the class is useless or anything like that.
14
#14
8 Frags +
alfaTo me carry means being consistently good which is much harder to do on roamer as some of its gameplay is really map dependant and some games you just can't possibly do anything because scout class. If this was promod TF2, soldier = scout.

I don't think that being consistent is the same as being a carry. I agree that it's harder to do on Soldier nowadays because haha Scout scattergun go brrr but Roamer still has carry potential, or at the very least more than Medic. Not to mention that usually the carry has crazy stats, which is something easily defined on a fragging class, and much less so by the Medic. Imagine a Roamer who is constantly getting the Medic or a 2K with every other bomb or something. You'd absolutely feel that impact way more than if there was a Medic who never died / had sick surfs.

[quote=alfa]To me carry means being consistently good which is much harder to do on roamer as some of its gameplay is really map dependant and some games you just can't possibly do anything because scout class. If this was promod TF2, soldier = scout.[/quote]

I don't think that being consistent is the same as being a carry. I agree that it's harder to do on Soldier nowadays because haha Scout scattergun go brrr but Roamer still has carry potential, or at the very least more than Medic. Not to mention that usually the carry has crazy stats, which is something easily defined on a fragging class, and much less so by the Medic. Imagine a Roamer who is constantly getting the Medic or a 2K with every other bomb or something. You'd absolutely feel that impact way more than if there was a Medic who never died / had sick surfs.
15
#15
3 Frags +

a good medic reduces the carry potential of the enemy fragging classes. if a med can consistently surf rockets, the roamer doesn't have much use other than to try and hold down flank.

that being said I am of the mindset that scouts can carry everything (see plumpwench)
it's not that the other members of the team aren't good but kenai and don destroy everything div2 can throw at them because scout has such a high potential as a class.

it might be different at a higher level of play but that's personally my experience

a good medic reduces the carry potential of the enemy fragging classes. if a med can consistently surf rockets, the roamer doesn't have much use other than to try and hold down flank.

that being said I am of the mindset that scouts can carry everything (see plumpwench)
it's not that the other members of the team aren't good but kenai and don destroy everything div2 can throw at them because scout has such a high potential as a class.

it might be different at a higher level of play but that's personally my experience
16
#16
-12 Frags +

at a low level roamer is probably the best to carry, imagine laz in a server where everyone else is low open that'd be even better than like banny pocket scout cause he has to drag his medic around and said med is probably clueless

at a high level i agree with bear's list

at a low level roamer is probably the best to carry, imagine laz in a server where everyone else is low open that'd be even better than like banny pocket scout cause he has to drag his medic around and said med is probably clueless

at a high level i agree with bear's list
17
#17
22 Frags +
Phantomat a low level roamer is probably the best to carry, imagine laz in a server where everyone else is low open that'd be even better than like banny pocket scout cause he has to drag his medic around and said med is probably clueless

at a high level i agree with bear's list

this is such a dumb statement, literally any invite player on any class would carry in a server where every other player is low open.

[quote=Phantom]at a low level roamer is probably the best to carry, imagine laz in a server where everyone else is low open that'd be even better than like banny pocket scout cause he has to drag his medic around and said med is probably clueless

at a high level i agree with bear's list[/quote]

this is such a dumb statement, literally any invite player on any class would carry in a server where every other player is low open.
18
#18
23 Frags +

u can basically power rank a division just by looking at which teams have the strongest scouts

u can basically power rank a division just by looking at which teams have the strongest scouts
19
#19
2 Frags +
Tino_Tbh, it's not class dependent but player dependent. Any class with a good player can carry a team with DPM frags or even calls and positioning micro.

I can't agree on that.

b4nny made the switch from pocket solly to pocket scout several times and it always proved out to be for the best.
Scout is just superior: better dm, easier to make calls, easier to set the pace etc.

Overall I'd say it goes Pocket scout > Demo > Flank > Pocket solly in the current meta

[quote=Tino_]Tbh, it's not class dependent but player dependent. Any class with a good player can carry a team with DPM frags or even calls and positioning micro.[/quote]
I can't agree on that.

b4nny made the switch from pocket solly to pocket scout several times and it always proved out to be for the best.
Scout is just superior: better dm, easier to make calls, easier to set the pace etc.

Overall I'd say it goes Pocket scout > Demo > Flank > Pocket solly in the current meta
20
#20
6 Frags +

it's kind of a weird comparison to compare medic with any combat class and discuss who can carry cause medic inherently isn't designed to carry, most of a medics impacts are far more subtle so i'm not sure you can make a direct comparison in terms of which class carries harder

it's kind of a weird comparison to compare medic with any combat class and discuss who can carry cause medic inherently isn't designed to carry, most of a medics impacts are far more subtle so i'm not sure you can make a direct comparison in terms of which class carries harder
21
#21
5 Frags +

I feel like roamer has more opportunity to outright win rounds than pocket, you see pockets loose with good stats way more often than you see roamers loose with good stats

I feel like roamer has more opportunity to outright win rounds than pocket, you see pockets loose with good stats way more often than you see roamers loose with good stats
22
#22
0 Frags +

This order drastically changes when you factor in what division or skill level you are talking about IMO. I think the class most in question is Medic as he can easily carry more at lower levels than at higher levels. His direct impact on the game has a higher potential at lower/mid levels and therefore carry more for the team.

At lower skill levels, a really good medic can mitigate mostly all the mistakes those type of teams make by just being in the right position or being able to read a fight AKA game-sense. I'm not saying this isn't done at the highest levels but the medic typically isn't the class who is making that happen in those cases.

This order drastically changes when you factor in what division or skill level you are talking about IMO. I think the class most in question is Medic as he can easily carry more at lower levels than at higher levels. His direct impact on the game has a higher potential at lower/mid levels and therefore carry more for the team.

At lower skill levels, a really good medic can mitigate mostly all the mistakes those type of teams make by just being in the right position or being able to read a fight AKA game-sense. I'm not saying this isn't done at the highest levels but the medic typically isn't the class who is making that happen in those cases.
23
#23
7 Frags +

in pugs
both scouts > demo > both soldiers > medic

in high level league play
pocket scout > demo > flank scout > pocket soldier > roamer > medic

here I'm interpreting carry as "if you have a pop off game your team will probably win". over the course of many games I'd rate the importance of individual performance of each player in this order

pocket scout > demo > medic > pocket soldier > flank classes

imo the combo is by far the most important part of any team

in pugs
both scouts > demo > both soldiers > medic

in high level league play
pocket scout > demo > flank scout > pocket soldier > roamer > medic

here I'm interpreting carry as "if you have a pop off game your team will probably win". over the course of many games I'd rate the importance of individual performance of each player in this order

pocket scout > demo > medic > pocket soldier > flank classes

imo the combo is by far the most important part of any team
24
#24
13 Frags +

combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket > med (carry potential)

med > combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket (baseline potential)

combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket > med (carry potential)

med > combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket (baseline potential)
25
#25
1 Frags +
SpaceCadetThis order drastically changes when you factor in what division or skill level you are talking about IMO. I think the class most in question is Medic as he can easily carry more at lower levels than at higher levels. His direct impact on the game has a higher potential at lower/mid levels and therefore carry more for the team.

At lower skill levels, a really good medic can mitigate mostly all the mistakes those type of teams make by just being in the right position or being able to read a fight AKA game-sense. I'm not saying this isn't done at the highest levels but the medic typically isn't the class who is making that happen in those cases.

At lower levels this is definitely true, having a medic who's in the right position and survives can singlehandedly win rounds even if the rest of the team is worse (e.g., I rang for a friend's main team and the other team forced me to medic and despite every player on our team being heavily outdamaged and having more deaths than their whole team we still managed to win two rounds because I micro'd everyone and survived: http://logs.tf/2607314#76561198059645150).

yightcombo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket > med (carry potential)

med > combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket (baseline potential)

Not sure what 'baseline potential' means exactly but I will agree that in close matches medics' performances are some of the most important because it's so easy to drop players or drop uber or get caught out and lose rounds, but I would say that corresponds to the fact that medic is very easy to fuck up on. Not playing poorly does help your team but I wouldn't even say that's really carrying, if both medics are playing well it doesn't really make sense to say they are both carrying. And if one medic messes up and has a bad game and the other doesn't, it seems more fair to say the one who played poorly was holding their team back than the other medic particularly carrying.

That said, if your medic has crazy mechanics and simply doesn't die to bombers and has crazy surfs and stuff that would definitely count as carrying in my book. Strictly speaking, medic definitely has a huge skill ceiling and there is room to play optimally and never get caught out and have perfect games and arrow the enemy med and stuff like that, but I'm not sure how that compares to the carry abilities of other classes. It feels like on medic even if you are having your best game ever there simply isn't *that* much you can do so long as the other medic is playing decently, your teammates kind of have to step up and actually kill stuff even if you constantly give them uber ad pushes.

[quote=SpaceCadet]This order drastically changes when you factor in what division or skill level you are talking about IMO. I think the class most in question is Medic as he can easily carry more at lower levels than at higher levels. His direct impact on the game has a higher potential at lower/mid levels and therefore carry more for the team.

At lower skill levels, a really good medic can mitigate mostly all the mistakes those type of teams make by just being in the right position or being able to read a fight AKA game-sense. I'm not saying this isn't done at the highest levels but the medic typically isn't the class who is making that happen in those cases.[/quote]
At lower levels this is definitely true, having a medic who's in the right position and survives can singlehandedly win rounds even if the rest of the team is worse (e.g., I rang for a friend's main team and the other team forced me to medic and despite every player on our team being heavily outdamaged and having more deaths than their whole team we still managed to win two rounds because I micro'd everyone and survived: http://logs.tf/2607314#76561198059645150).

[quote=yight]combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket > med (carry potential)

med > combo scout > demo > flank scout/roamer map dependent > pocket (baseline potential)[/quote]

Not sure what 'baseline potential' means exactly but I will agree that in close matches medics' performances are some of the most important because it's so easy to drop players or drop uber or get caught out and lose rounds, but I would say that corresponds to the fact that medic is very easy to fuck up on. Not playing poorly does help your team but I wouldn't even say that's really carrying, if both medics are playing well it doesn't really make sense to say they are both carrying. And if one medic messes up and has a bad game and the other doesn't, it seems more fair to say the one who played poorly was holding their team back than the other medic particularly carrying.

That said, if your medic has crazy mechanics and simply doesn't die to bombers and has crazy surfs and stuff that would definitely count as carrying in my book. Strictly speaking, medic definitely has a huge skill ceiling and there is room to play optimally and never get caught out and have perfect games and arrow the enemy med and stuff like that, but I'm not sure how that compares to the carry abilities of other classes. It feels like on medic even if you are having your best game ever there simply isn't *that* much you can do so long as the other medic is playing decently, your teammates kind of have to step up and actually kill stuff even if you constantly give them uber ad pushes.
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