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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
so uhh..
91
#91
9 Frags +

catch me sacking into last while i fly gracefully with my five jumps and invincibility

o yes

catch me sacking into last while i fly gracefully with my five jumps and invincibility

o yes
92
#92
40 Frags +

I can't get over the whitelist pugs that were continously brought up last night and continue getting brought up. They played for 45 minutes with 3-4 playoffs Invite players and keep wanting to conclude that the items were tested at a high level

Some of these very same people weren't aware of the attributes of some items that they had supposedly tested

I can't get over the whitelist pugs that were continously brought up last night and continue getting brought up. They played for 45 minutes with 3-4 playoffs Invite players and keep wanting to conclude that the items were tested at a high level

Some of these very same people weren't aware of the attributes of some items that they had supposedly tested
93
#93
2 Frags +
NurseyAs time goes on, people have came to the general conclusion that things should be more centered around higher level play. It wasn't always that mindset but it has became a pretty popular opinion for games in general to be based around the top level of play. This isn't just a TF2 opinion.

ya but at the same time you're unbanning this not because it's refreshing and fun to play against but because top teams can counter it and find it "meh its kinda pointless", its a gimmick weapon and imo theres no fucking point in having gimmick weapons unbanned, do you think a bunch of open, low and mid players are more keen to play when shit that is annoying to everyone but a highly skilled well coordinated team and it gets used against them when they're losing 4-0? the reason you wanna do this is to bridge the gap between casual and comp so more newbies will join but at the same time the whitelist protects them from being stomped to fuck shit in unfun ways by people who are better than them
the whitelist isn't why pubbers wont play comp, its because they dont want or have the drive to play comp in the first place, they cba dedicating time to getting better aim, understanding what they're doing is wrong and why it's wrong and etc

imagine if you are playing badlands, your demo has quickie launcher, you bonk onto point, sticks are gone, you might be slow but you're capping that fucker fast, it's a fucking free entry wtf ? where is the skill from the scout's part?

https://youtu.be/BQLEW1c-69c?t=2382 (youtube embed breaks time)
tell me if this story sounds similar, the top players have put more hours into the game than all the devs combined, there is no fucking reason to cater to what they want because they have no idea how good tf2 can be at its best
we can either keep making some mutant freak out of comp tf2 which meets our needs but also lines up with tf2 devs views OR we can embellish in what we've been building up for 11 years.

im not against allowing more weapons into the whitelist, but i am against allowing gimmick weapons, useless or not and trying to please devs who dont know how to play the game

[quote=Nursey]
As time goes on, people have came to the general conclusion that things should be more centered around higher level play. It wasn't always that mindset but it has became a pretty popular opinion for games in general to be based around the top level of play. This isn't just a TF2 opinion.[/quote]

ya but at the same time you're unbanning this not because it's refreshing and fun to play against but because top teams can counter it and find it "meh its kinda pointless", its a gimmick weapon and imo theres no fucking point in having gimmick weapons unbanned, do you think a bunch of open, low and mid players are more keen to play when shit that is annoying to everyone but a highly skilled well coordinated team and it gets used against them when they're losing 4-0? the reason you wanna do this is to bridge the gap between casual and comp so more newbies will join but at the same time the whitelist protects them from being stomped to fuck shit in unfun ways by people who are better than them
the whitelist isn't why pubbers wont play comp, its because they dont want or have the drive to play comp in the first place, they cba dedicating time to getting better aim, understanding what they're doing is wrong and why it's wrong and etc

imagine if you are playing badlands, your demo has quickie launcher, you bonk onto point, sticks are gone, you might be slow but you're capping that fucker fast, it's a fucking free entry wtf ? where is the skill from the scout's part?

https://youtu.be/BQLEW1c-69c?t=2382 (youtube embed breaks time)
tell me if this story sounds similar, the top players have put more hours into the game than all the devs combined, there is no fucking reason to cater to what they want because they have no idea how good tf2 can be at its best
we can either keep making some mutant freak out of comp tf2 which meets our needs but also lines up with tf2 devs views OR we can embellish in what we've been building up for 11 years.

im not against allowing more weapons into the whitelist, but i am against allowing gimmick weapons, useless or not and trying to please devs who dont know how to play the game
94
#94
42 Frags +

what if i told u some of these players havent placed in IM
https://i.gyazo.com/6169275df011220130accdb7ebb9cf44.png

what if i told u some of these players havent placed in IM
https://i.gyazo.com/6169275df011220130accdb7ebb9cf44.png
95
#95
-4 Frags +

While I think in general certain unlocks add to many issues to the game, understanding the impact of these items in a meta can't be determined without actually having them cycled into normal seasons. 45 minutes of pugs is not indicative of their impact. I hope people will abuse these items to their advantage or recognize they do not grant an advantage, so that we can go beyond the not-so-thorough playtesting and actually see what it does. Mason said it best, if you risk winning your division using these weapons, or not, for money, that gives us our answer as to whether they're impactful

While I think in general certain unlocks add to many issues to the game, understanding the impact of these items in a meta can't be determined without actually having them cycled into normal seasons. 45 minutes of pugs is not indicative of their impact. I hope people will abuse these items to their advantage or recognize they do not grant an advantage, so that we can go beyond the not-so-thorough playtesting and actually see what it does. Mason said it best, if you risk winning your division using these weapons, or not, for money, that gives us our answer as to whether they're impactful
96
#96
2 Frags +
EoNWhy can't valve just make good unlocks lol

casual pub game

[quote=EoN]Why can't valve just make good unlocks lol[/quote]
casual pub game
97
#97
-5 Frags +

this is chaos

this is chaos
98
#98
6 Frags +

BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT!

BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT!

BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT!

[b]BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT!

BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT!

BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! BUFF SCOUT! [/b]
99
#99
-15 Frags +

the soda popper wont be aids to play against at all!!!

[url=https://youtu.be/M9VROqs2DGI?t=223]the soda popper wont be aids to play against at all!!![/url]
100
#100
14 Frags +

what do you gain from unbanning all the garbage
if tf2 is getting stale just play a better game

what do you gain from unbanning all the garbage
if tf2 is getting stale just play a better game
101
#101
28 Frags +
Nursey-snip-
For any european that missed the ESEA meeting last night, there were whitelist pugs last night which ran into the discussion for the whitelist. The weapons that have been discussed to be unbanned (bonk, solemn vow, soda popper) have PROVEN to not be nearly as busted as people thought they were going to be. I heavily believe that unlocks that prove to have no impact on the game shouldn't be banned, if they prove that we have nothing to lose and only things to potentially gain (no matter how small that gain is) then there is literally no reason to be so stubborn about keeping them gone.
-snip-

This right here is why I have little faith in a lot of the "high" level players.

Seriously let's consider how many Invite scouts actually have used the soda popper for more than an hour or so in the last 2 years.

The soda popper has completely different timing than Stock scatter gun and even the FaN this will automatically put every scout who's practiced with a scattergun for hundreds (if not thousands) of hours worse off if they've rarely/never used the soda popper. Don't get me wrong they'll still do well but they will definitely not be at PEAK performance.

The only thing a single night of pugs could do is prove that the soda-popper isn't immediately and obviously broken.

I guarantee a lot of the people who think the soda-popper has little to no effect on the game, will change their mind after a full season of use.

[quote=Nursey]-snip-
For any european that missed the ESEA meeting last night, there were whitelist pugs last night which ran into the discussion for the whitelist. The weapons that have been discussed to be unbanned (bonk, solemn vow, [b]soda popper[/b]) [b]have PROVEN to not be nearly as busted as people thought they were going to be[/b]. I heavily believe that unlocks that prove to have no impact on the game shouldn't be banned, if they prove that we have nothing to lose and only things to potentially gain (no matter how small that gain is) then there is literally no reason to be so stubborn about keeping them gone.
-snip-
[/quote]

This right here is why I have little faith in a lot of the "high" level players.

Seriously let's consider how many Invite scouts actually have used the soda popper for more than an hour or so in the last 2 years.

The soda popper has completely different timing than Stock scatter gun and even the FaN this will automatically put every scout who's practiced with a scattergun for hundreds (if not thousands) of hours worse off if they've rarely/never used the soda popper. [i]Don't get me wrong they'll still do well but they will definitely not be at PEAK performance.[/i]

The only thing a single night of pugs could do is prove that the soda-popper isn't immediately and obviously broken.

I [i]guarantee[/i] a lot of the people who think the soda-popper has little to no effect on the game, will change their mind after a full season of use.
102
#102
16 Frags +
NurseyThings have also came to the conclusion that talking about what could possibly happen with unlocks 'in theory' is not a proper way to discuss things. Do not ever forget that 'in theory tf2' that direct hit is the most overpowered weapon in the game. Sniper is the most broken class. Force 'a' Nature is a much better weapon than the stock scatter. Only bringing up hypotheticals when these things were PROVEN to not be as good as anticipated serves no place in this discussion anymore.

Most hypotheticals I see being brought up are more along the lines of "every way to use this weapon I can think of is actively bad for the game, even if they're not gamebreakers and I don't think many people will try it." And theorycrafting is usually wrong, but if everyone thinks a weapon is somewhere between pointless and bullshit, it's pretty unlikely it'll end up worthwhile.

And that's really the core of it:

NurseyI heavily believe that unlocks that prove to have no impact on the game shouldn't be banned, if they prove that we have nothing to lose and only things to potentially gain (no matter how small that gain is) then there is literally no reason to be so stubborn about keeping them gone.
...
I'm just saying if things are proven to have no major effect, I see no reason to be so stubborn to keep them out.

Most people would argue the exact opposite. These are weapons that have not been proven to be beneficial to the game in any way. In all likelyhood any impact they do have on the game is a net negative, even if they're relatively negligible and rarely happen because no one uses them (in the best case). We have nothing to gain and only things to potentially lose, not the other way around.

The world's not ending because of some unbans that may turn out to do absolutely nothing, but every time we decide "well people are now used to putting up with the last whitelist, let's unban more" it seems like a bunch of risks are being taken that:

  • do not have enough testing to see their full impact on the game
  • in the best case will not matter because ideally stupid weapons just never get run (and is effectively the same as keeping them banned in that regard)
  • in the worst case makes things a problem for the next few weeks, before everyone realizes it's completely broken and has to be banned again
  • are decisions being made without most of the community's input
  • are decisions most of the community doesn't agree with
  • doesn't seem to actually have a good reason to happen in the first place, or didn't get us any closer to the goals it was supposed to the first x times we tried (helping valve balance weapon, getting valve to support the community more, getting more new players, etc. None of which changing the whitelist has done).
ComangliaThe only thing a single night of pugs could do is prove that the soda-popper isn't immediately and obviously broken.

With how blatantly overpowered the atomizer was back when it was unbanned with the first global whitelist, I don't think a night of playtesting will even tell you that much.

[quote=Nursey]Things have also came to the conclusion that talking about what could possibly happen with unlocks 'in theory' is not a proper way to discuss things. Do not ever forget that 'in theory tf2' that direct hit is the most overpowered weapon in the game. Sniper is the most broken class. Force 'a' Nature is a much better weapon than the stock scatter. Only bringing up hypotheticals when these things were PROVEN to not be as good as anticipated serves no place in this discussion anymore.[/quote]Most hypotheticals I see being brought up are more along the lines of "every way to use this weapon I can think of is actively bad for the game, even if they're not gamebreakers and I don't think many people will try it." And theorycrafting is usually wrong, but if everyone thinks a weapon is somewhere between pointless and bullshit, it's pretty unlikely it'll end up worthwhile.

And that's really the core of it:
[quote=Nursey]I heavily believe that unlocks that prove to have no impact on the game shouldn't be banned, if they prove that we have nothing to lose and only things to potentially gain (no matter how small that gain is) then there is literally no reason to be so stubborn about keeping them gone.
...
I'm just saying if things are proven to have no major effect, I see no reason to be so stubborn to keep them out.[/quote]
Most people would argue the exact opposite. These are weapons that have not been proven to be beneficial to the game in any way. In all likelyhood any impact they do have on the game is a net negative, even if they're relatively negligible and rarely happen because no one uses them (in the best case). We have nothing to gain and only things to potentially lose, not the other way around.

The world's not ending because of some unbans that may turn out to do absolutely nothing, but every time we decide "well people are now used to putting up with the last whitelist, let's unban more" it seems like a bunch of risks are being taken that:[list]
[*] do not have enough testing to see their full impact on the game
[*] in the best case will not matter because ideally stupid weapons just never get run (and is effectively the same as keeping them banned in that regard)
[*] in the worst case makes things a problem for the next few weeks, before everyone realizes it's completely broken and has to be banned again
[*] are decisions being made without most of the community's input
[*] are decisions most of the community doesn't agree with
[*] doesn't seem to actually have a good reason to happen in the first place, or didn't get us any closer to the goals it was supposed to the first x times we tried (helping valve balance weapon, getting valve to support the community more, getting more new players, etc. None of which changing the whitelist has done).
[/list][quote=Comanglia]The only thing a single night of pugs could do is prove that the soda-popper isn't immediately and obviously broken.[/quote]
With how blatantly overpowered the atomizer was back when it was unbanned with the first global whitelist, I don't think a night of playtesting will even tell you that much.
103
#103
4 Frags +
ProSkeezI can't get over the whitelist pugs that were continously brought up last night and continue getting brought up. They played for 45 minutes with 3-4 playoffs Invite players and keep wanting to conclude that the items were tested at a high level

Some of these very same people weren't aware of the attributes of some items that they had supposedly tested

I equally can't get over the people who never tested any such items in their existence in TF2 and then refuse to believe that some people who played the items with multiple teams and lists for 2 and a half hours don't know more about those items than the people who have literally never used them.

please man. the testing may not have been super in depth but the same people bitching about the players not doing enough play testing weren't exactly rushing in to help get the weapons tested lol Phantom has been asking you all the play these pugs for weeks.

if you're not willing to test, do everyone a favor and just shut up and let the scrims in the next weeks do the testing. This thread is actually pointless, more theory this and theory that. It serves literally no purpose.

[quote=ProSkeez]I can't get over the whitelist pugs that were continously brought up last night and continue getting brought up. They played for 45 minutes with 3-4 playoffs Invite players and keep wanting to conclude that the items were tested at a high level

Some of these very same people weren't aware of the attributes of some items that they had supposedly tested[/quote]

I equally can't get over the people who never tested any such items in their existence in TF2 and then refuse to believe that some people who played the items with multiple teams and lists for 2 and a half hours don't know more about those items than the people who have literally never used them.

please man. the testing may not have been super in depth but the same people bitching about the players not doing enough play testing weren't exactly rushing in to help get the weapons tested lol Phantom has been asking you all the play these pugs for weeks.

if you're not willing to test, do everyone a favor and just shut up and let the scrims in the next weeks do the testing. This thread is actually pointless, more theory this and theory that. It serves literally no purpose.
104
#104
11 Frags +

bonk is op

bonk is op
105
#105
30 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/9E6iHZ9.png

[img]https://i.imgur.com/9E6iHZ9.png[/img]
106
#106
26 Frags +
kawabonk is op

https://streamable.com/gov6f

[quote=kawa]bonk is op[/quote]
https://streamable.com/gov6f
107
#107
1 Frags +
hamahamkawabonk is ophttps://streamable.com/gov6f

Are people not aware of this bug?

Also I feel like expecting any sort of consistency when it comes to a whitelist with the bow being legal is laughable.

[quote=hamaham][quote=kawa]bonk is op[/quote]
https://streamable.com/gov6f[/quote]


Are people not aware of this bug?

Also I feel like expecting any sort of consistency when it comes to a whitelist with the bow being legal is laughable.
108
#108
29 Frags +

This is such a dumb conversation. Stop trying to unban shit in 6s, noone wants it. Stop trying to get pubbers interested in 6s. It won't happen.

Leave Highlander to be the competitive mode for pubbers. It's so much more relatable to a pubber than 6s. Highlander lets people play their fav class, lets people use most of what unlocks they like and lets people transition to a competitive environment where people try to win.

This is such a dumb conversation. Stop trying to unban shit in 6s, noone wants it. Stop trying to get pubbers interested in 6s. It won't happen.

Leave Highlander to be the competitive mode for pubbers. It's so much more relatable to a pubber than 6s. Highlander lets people play their fav class, lets people use most of what unlocks they like and lets people transition to a competitive environment where people try to win.
109
#109
3 Frags +
Tino_hamahamkawabonk is ophttps://streamable.com/gov6f
Are people not aware of this bug?

Also I feel like expecting any sort of consistency when it comes to a whitelist with the bow being legal is laughable.

It was mentioned in the meeting yesterday as well. Pretty sure the majority of people agreed it should be banned because it's bugged

[quote=Tino_][quote=hamaham][quote=kawa]bonk is op[/quote]
https://streamable.com/gov6f[/quote]


Are people not aware of this bug?

Also I feel like expecting any sort of consistency when it comes to a whitelist with the bow being legal is laughable.[/quote]
It was mentioned in the meeting yesterday as well. Pretty sure the majority of people agreed it should be banned because it's bugged
110
#110
-4 Frags +

from playtesting and theories, my think is that you don't get as much presence with the soda popper against stock scouts, and that can be abused during teamfights

from playtesting and theories, my think is that you don't get as much presence with the soda popper against stock scouts, and that can be abused during teamfights
111
#111
33 Frags +

As someone who actually used the soda popper a lot when it was unbanned in ugc i can tell u that weapon is fucking bonkers and should not be unbanned at all

As someone who actually used the soda popper a lot when it was unbanned in ugc i can tell u that weapon is fucking bonkers and should not be unbanned at all
112
#112
-7 Frags +

For those questioning why people are trying to unban things and remove restrictions, I think the idea behind it is feeling bad that your game is so shit that it needs tons of restrictions to be playable. What other game has restrictions like class limits and weapon whitelists today? These restrictions just seem arbitrary to outsiders, whether they be pubbers or competitive players in other games. The people trying to unban things are just trying to see if "idk maybe if we become like the other esports we'll grow". And you can make fun of them w/ lul tf2 major when jokes but that'd just make you literally suicidal about the game, lol. The game will continue to be fun i guess but it'll just eventually die. The game is like a cancer patient and you could either just want to do nothing and die without suffering, or you could get chemotherapy and suffer and maybe still die but maybe survive.

For those questioning why people are trying to unban things and remove restrictions, I think the idea behind it is feeling bad that your game is so shit that it needs tons of restrictions to be playable. What other game has restrictions like class limits and weapon whitelists today? These restrictions just seem arbitrary to outsiders, whether they be pubbers or competitive players in other games. The people trying to unban things are just trying to see if "idk maybe if we become like the other esports we'll grow". And you can make fun of them w/ lul tf2 major when jokes but that'd just make you literally suicidal about the game, lol. The game will continue to be fun i guess but it'll just eventually die. The game is like a cancer patient and you could either just want to do nothing and die without suffering, or you could get chemotherapy and suffer and maybe still die but maybe survive.
113
#113
4 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIiQcMMCOGQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIiQcMMCOGQ
114
#114
-20 Frags +

I highly doubt there's anyone currently playing this game that thinks there's a miraculous event we can make occur to make us a relevant esport. I also highly doubt even b4nny believes that. That's not the main source of these concerns, at least not for me. For as long as I've been around, the feeling of hopelessness is driven too deeply into our scene. People are content playing the same game until there's no one around wanting to play it anymore. The most spoken mindset you hear anymore is people saying "enjoy the game while it lasts." I agree with the sentiment that people should enjoy it while it's around, but the main point of people saying this seems to come from the source of "why should we even bother doing anything?" I'm not gonna ignore the efforts that people put into this scene. The people behind the scenes of TFTV I appreciate greatly. I also appreciate anyone behind the scenes of any competitive league.

The feeling of hopelessness in this scene worries me. I've seen many players plateau in skill simply because they see no point in getting better. People were content for a while now just sticking to their same maps despite how we have plenty of offers from people trying to give us better alternatives. The game has been running its course for a long time now. Those that put in all the hardest work to make up for our lack of effort are drifting from this scene. We're truly running out of options at this point to get anything done. I'm completely willing to deal with the very minor negatives of unlocks that will barely scratch the meta of our game if it even means it'll help out even the tiniest of bit. It feels like I'm trying to stay optimistic while most of those around on this site are trying to take any enthusiasm away.

I also completely understand I have more free time to play this game whenever I please compared to many others. I understand I will be able to find enjoyment in the game more often - with unlocks or not - while those that do not have my same level of free time won't have the same opportunities. I'm very sorry to these people. I 100% do not believe these unlocks are going to take your enjoyment from the game in anyway. I'm still advocating for bans of certain unlocks that I posted about earlier. Those are the ones I 100% understand taking enjoyment away from you, but not these ones. I just do not agree with the theory crafting stacked on top of the pessimism.

I also been playing casual for a very huge amount of time. I have been playing highlander and 6v6 for years. I also play most other competitive formats. I know I spouted this junk before, but I really wish for people to believe in me when I say these weapons won't be nearly as harmful as people think they'll be. I'm pretty certain which ones will be extremely harmful and as far as I'm aware they are remaining banned. I'm also not a stubborn person, if these unlocks prove to be extremely broken in the next couple weeks of scrims I'm completely willing to listen to any of those reasons. The biggest thing I'm advocating for is against the hopelessness of the scene. I'm well aware there will not be an overnight major, but just to give up on any chance of trying to make any progress in our scene is quite sad of us.

I highly doubt there's anyone currently playing this game that thinks there's a miraculous event we can make occur to make us a relevant esport. I also highly doubt even b4nny believes that. That's not the main source of these concerns, at least not for me. For as long as I've been around, the feeling of hopelessness is driven too deeply into our scene. People are content playing the same game until there's no one around wanting to play it anymore. The most spoken mindset you hear anymore is people saying "enjoy the game while it lasts." I agree with the sentiment that people should enjoy it while it's around, but the main point of people saying this seems to come from the source of "why should we even bother doing anything?" I'm not gonna ignore the efforts that people put into this scene. The people behind the scenes of TFTV I appreciate greatly. I also appreciate anyone behind the scenes of any competitive league.

The feeling of hopelessness in this scene worries me. I've seen many players plateau in skill simply because they see no point in getting better. People were content for a while now just sticking to their same maps despite how we have plenty of offers from people trying to give us better alternatives. The game has been running its course for a long time now. Those that put in all the hardest work to make up for our lack of effort are drifting from this scene. We're truly running out of options at this point to get anything done. I'm completely willing to deal with the very minor negatives of unlocks that will barely scratch the meta of our game if it even means it'll help out even the tiniest of bit. It feels like I'm trying to stay optimistic while most of those around on this site are trying to take any enthusiasm away.

I also completely understand I have more free time to play this game whenever I please compared to many others. I understand I will be able to find enjoyment in the game more often - with unlocks or not - while those that do not have my same level of free time won't have the same opportunities. I'm very sorry to these people. I 100% do not believe these unlocks are going to take your enjoyment from the game in anyway. I'm still advocating for bans of certain unlocks that I posted about earlier. Those are the ones I 100% understand taking enjoyment away from you, but not these ones. I just do not agree with the theory crafting stacked on top of the pessimism.

I also been playing casual for a very huge amount of time. I have been playing highlander and 6v6 for years. I also play most other competitive formats. I know I spouted this junk before, but I really wish for people to believe in me when I say these weapons won't be nearly as harmful as people think they'll be. I'm pretty certain which ones will be extremely harmful and as far as I'm aware they are remaining banned. I'm also not a stubborn person, if these unlocks prove to be extremely broken in the next couple weeks of scrims I'm completely willing to listen to any of those reasons. The biggest thing I'm advocating for is against the hopelessness of the scene. I'm well aware there will not be an overnight major, but just to give up on any chance of trying to make any progress in our scene is quite sad of us.
115
#115
-4 Frags +

legalize all drugs

legalize all drugs
116
#116
53 Frags +
ward3d What other game has restrictions like class limits and weapon whitelists today?

Smash? Hell it has even more restrictions considering literally all items are off lol. Imagine if people in the smash community suggested that they turn items on because it's more familiar to the casual player/outsiders who only see smash as a party game. Turns out that allowing uncompetitive things when you're trying to make a competitive game solely for the reason that "it's part of the base game" is a fucking terrible idea. Not to mention that cs was about to ban the r8 revolver before it got fixed. I really think you're overestimating how complicated the idea of "it's banned because it's broken or uncompetitive" is.

NurseyI'm completely willing to deal with the very minor negatives of unlocks that will barely scratch the meta of our game if it even means it'll help out even the tiniest of bit. It feels like I'm trying to stay optimistic while most of those around on this site are trying to take any enthusiasm away.

People like b4nny always spout this shit about players needing to sacrifice their own enjoyment of the game "for the greater good" but literally what benefits are there at all to unbanning uncompetitive unlocks? You already admit that unbanning these unlocks only brings potential negatives to the game itself, and at best affects nothing. I remember during the initial global whitelist push (which btw NA has totally abandoned, what happened to people like SLIN saying that the communities should have 1 whitelist lmao) the proponents were saying that unbanning unlocks will also attract new players. Unfortunately, that has not been the case and the pattern in player numbers went basically unchanged pre and post global whitelist, so it'd be a little absurd to think that an extra few unlocks would make any sort of change. Where exactly are these supposed benefits, no matter how small?

NurseyI highly doubt there's anyone currently playing this game that thinks there's a miraculous event we can make occur to make us a relevant esport.

The reason people jokingly bring up "Valve major" is because appealing to Valve was a big reason for the mass unbans within the global whitelist, and considering it's been two years since then and the comp tf2 community has absurdly little to show for it, I personally am quite cynical toward that particular line of reasoning.

Kind of a side note, but believe me when I say I've spent a LOT of time talking to tf2 players who have never touched any competitive format, ranging from the average pubber to the casual comp stream viewer to people who vehemently antagonize anything even vaguely related to comp, and I've met maybe 2 people who actually avoided comp because of certain unlocks being banned. Once that unlock got unbanned (gunslinger for both), they still avoided comp because turns out full-time engineer still sucks. The reasons why people don't want to play comp are either because they can't play their main full time viably and/or they hate 5cp (oftentimes these two things are tied together) or they only enjoy the chaos of 12v12 class stacking pub tf2 on maps with infinite sightlines and awful chokes.

[quote=ward3d] What other game has restrictions like class limits and weapon whitelists today? [/quote]

Smash? Hell it has even more restrictions considering literally all items are off lol. Imagine if people in the smash community suggested that they turn items on because it's more familiar to the casual player/outsiders who only see smash as a party game. Turns out that allowing uncompetitive things when you're trying to make a competitive game solely for the reason that "it's part of the base game" is a fucking terrible idea. Not to mention that cs was about to ban the r8 revolver before it got fixed. I really think you're overestimating how complicated the idea of "it's banned because it's broken or uncompetitive" is.

[quote=Nursey]
I'm completely willing to deal with the very minor negatives of unlocks that will barely scratch the meta of our game if it even means it'll help out even the tiniest of bit. It feels like I'm trying to stay optimistic while most of those around on this site are trying to take any enthusiasm away. [/quote]

People like b4nny always spout this shit about players needing to sacrifice their own enjoyment of the game "for the greater good" but literally what benefits are there at all to unbanning uncompetitive unlocks? You already admit that unbanning these unlocks only brings potential negatives to the game itself, and [i][b]at best[/b][/i] affects nothing. I remember during the initial global whitelist push (which btw NA has totally abandoned, what happened to people like SLIN saying that the communities should have 1 whitelist lmao) the proponents were saying that unbanning unlocks will also attract new players.[url=https://imgur.com/EP0gYj5] Unfortunately, that has not been the case and the pattern in player numbers went basically unchanged pre and post global whitelist[/url], so it'd be a little absurd to think that an extra few unlocks would make any sort of change. Where exactly are these supposed benefits, no matter how small?

[quote=Nursey]
I highly doubt there's anyone currently playing this game that thinks there's a miraculous event we can make occur to make us a relevant esport.[/quote]

The reason people jokingly bring up "Valve major" is [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YKW9m5msDs]because appealing to Valve was a big reason for the mass unbans within the global whitelist[/url], and considering it's been two years since then and the comp tf2 community has absurdly little to show for it, I personally am quite cynical toward that particular line of reasoning.


Kind of a side note, but believe me when I say I've spent a LOT of time talking to tf2 players who have never touched any competitive format, ranging from the average pubber to the casual comp stream viewer to people who vehemently antagonize anything even vaguely related to comp, and I've met maybe 2 people who actually avoided comp because of certain unlocks being banned. Once that unlock got unbanned (gunslinger for both), they still avoided comp because turns out full-time engineer still sucks. The reasons why people don't want to play comp are either because they can't play their main full time viably and/or they hate 5cp (oftentimes these two things are tied together) or they only enjoy the chaos of 12v12 class stacking pub tf2 on maps with infinite sightlines and awful chokes.
117
#117
16 Frags +

haven't read a single post in this thread and i don't care about bonk or solemn vow
BUT
isn't soda popper just legitimately broken? or did it get nerfed recently? it's been a while since i touched the weapon

haven't read a single post in this thread and i don't care about bonk or solemn vow
BUT
isn't soda popper just legitimately broken? or did it get nerfed recently? it's been a while since i touched the weapon
118
#118
4 Frags +
highfivehaven't read a single post in this thread and i don't care about bonk or solemn vow
BUT
isn't soda popper just legitimately broken? or did it get nerfed recently? it's been a while since i touched the weapon

It got "nerfed" a while ago. It used to build the charge when you moved around but now it builds the charge by player damage. It still allows you to do 7 jumps once you have your charge though, so it's debatable if it was really a nerf or not.

[quote=highfive]haven't read a single post in this thread and i don't care about bonk or solemn vow
BUT
isn't soda popper just legitimately broken? or did it get nerfed recently? it's been a while since i touched the weapon[/quote]

It got "nerfed" a while ago. It used to build the charge when you moved around but now it builds the charge by player damage. It still allows you to do 7 jumps once you have your charge though, so it's debatable if it was really a nerf or not.
119
#119
11 Frags +

Only allow Kritz/Gunboats/Boston Basher/Escape Plan/Pain Train. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedules to read this comment.

Only allow Kritz/Gunboats/Boston Basher/Escape Plan/Pain Train. Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedules to read this comment.
120
#120
18 Frags +

ESEA players should unionize.

ESEA players should unionize.
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