Upvote Upvoted 27 Downvote Downvoted
1 2
PSA top IM / invite players: Whitelist pugs
1
#1
0 Frags +

As some of you might know in the later half of the pre season there's an invite player meeting where we discuss things relating to esea, what we wanna see, what we want to change, etc. One part of this is the whitelist, and if we want to unban or ban any items.

The problem with this at the moment is we don't do any testing. I distinctly remember from last meeting lots of arguments for bans / unbans were based on theory crafting rather than any recent experience with the weapons in a high level 6v6 setting. The cow mangler for example was unbanned because we unanimously thought that it was either a sidegrade to stock or a slight upgrade and that it wouldn't break the game but that unban ended up making a lot of people unhappy. We were also pretty close to unbanning the vaccinator, solemn vow, and if i recall correctly the crit a cola, all due to theory crafting. IMO this is pretty bad when this meeting decides shit for everybody in every division.

So to get to the point if you've made top 4 IM or have played invite and are an active player that is interested in testing I'd appreciate it if you could join this group (or if you have me added just hit me up) If there's enough interest we can do some pugs with all weapons allowed to see what could get unbanned, and what should stay banned.

Season 31 edit: Based on last season's (brief) testing the items with the highest potential to be unbanned are the solemn vow bonk soda popper steak sandvich so most of the testing will be for these

As some of you might know in the later half of the pre season there's an invite player meeting where we discuss things relating to esea, what we wanna see, what we want to change, etc. One part of this is the whitelist, and if we want to unban or ban any items.

The problem with this at the moment is we don't do any testing. I distinctly remember from last meeting lots of arguments for bans / unbans were based on theory crafting rather than any recent experience with the weapons in a high level 6v6 setting. The cow mangler for example was unbanned because we unanimously thought that it was either a sidegrade to stock or a slight upgrade and that it wouldn't break the game but that unban ended up making a lot of people unhappy. We were also pretty close to unbanning the vaccinator, solemn vow, and if i recall correctly the crit a cola, all due to theory crafting. IMO this is pretty bad when this meeting decides shit for everybody in every division.

So to get to the point if you've made [b]top 4 IM or have played invite[/b] and are an active player that is interested in testing I'd appreciate it if you could join [url=https://steamcommunity.com/groups/tf2whitelistpugs] this group[/url] (or if you have me added just hit me up) If there's enough interest we can do some pugs with all weapons allowed to see what could get unbanned, and what should stay banned.


Season 31 edit: Based on last season's (brief) testing the items with the highest potential to be unbanned are the solemn vow bonk soda popper steak sandvich so most of the testing will be for these
2
#2
24 Frags +

#bringbackgpit

#bringbackgpit
3
#3
-22 Frags +

hey i just found the new whitelist on a piece of paper on the ground in my room (kinda weird if you ask me)

winger
boston basher
gunboats
escape plan
pain train
crusader's crossbow
kritzkreig
ubersaw
cloak and dagger

hey i just found the new whitelist on a piece of paper on the ground in my room (kinda weird if you ask me)

winger
boston basher
gunboats
escape plan
pain train
crusader's crossbow
kritzkreig
ubersaw
cloak and dagger
4
#4
-3 Frags +

Ban winger

Ban winger
5
#5
whitelist.tf
7 Frags +

Happy to see whitelist.tf used for what I intended it to be used for when I created it B)

Happy to see whitelist.tf used for what I intended it to be used for when I created it B)
6
#6
3 Frags +

go back to the s28 whitelist everyone was happy
also idk abt the rest but i don't like the ban system for maps every week i would rather go back to the old map rotation system

go back to the s28 whitelist everyone was happy
also idk abt the rest but i don't like the ban system for maps every week i would rather go back to the old map rotation system
7
#7
-6 Frags +

i like the mangler . . .

i like the mangler . . .
8
#8
-1 Frags +
smesigo back to the s28 whitelist everyone was happy
also idk abt the rest but i don't like the ban system for maps every week i would rather go back to the old map rotation system

as much as I don't like the new map voting system either, its not far from being something that could work.

if teams were given more than like 48 hours to practice for maps it would be better than what it is now.

I did however enjoy being able to play more than 3 different maps within a season. Matches could come down to which team is more well versed on a specific map (that isn't the big 3).

[quote=smesi]go back to the s28 whitelist everyone was happy
also idk abt the rest but i don't like the ban system for maps every week i would rather go back to the old map rotation system[/quote]

as much as I don't like the new map voting system either, its not far from being something that could work.

if teams were given more than like 48 hours to practice for maps it would be better than what it is now.

I did however enjoy being able to play more than 3 different maps within a season. Matches could come down to which team is more well versed on a specific map (that isn't the big 3).
9
#9
7 Frags +

the whole point of the map system isn't to give you a weeks practice on a map lol the point is that your team can now focus on certain maps you're actually good at while having the option to not focus practice on maps you are bad at (3 Bans basically allows you 1 or 2 or i guess even 3 perma banned maps if you like) no other competitive game in a league based system plays the way the old ESEA map rotation worked.

The system also makes way more sense in the greater scheme of things because it will simulate the maps you end up playing in playoffs way more, and i believe the playoff matches have improved over all the divisions for the most part because of it.

I really don't see how you could find the old map rotation system superior the current one. (Is this derailing?)

the whole point of the map system isn't to give you a weeks practice on a map lol the point is that your team can now focus on certain maps you're actually good at while having the option to not focus practice on maps you are bad at (3 Bans basically allows you 1 or 2 or i guess even 3 perma banned maps if you like) no other competitive game in a league based system plays the way the old ESEA map rotation worked.

The system also makes way more sense in the greater scheme of things because it will simulate the maps you end up playing in playoffs way more, and i believe the playoff matches have improved over all the divisions for the most part because of it.

I really don't see how you could find the old map rotation system superior the current one. (Is this derailing?)
10
#10
4 Frags +
Tino_#bringbackgpit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55aQnea7arY

[quote=Tino_]#bringbackgpit[/quote]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55aQnea7arY[/youtube]
11
#11
cp_granary_pro
-10 Frags +

-granary -metalworks +coalplant +bagel

-granary -metalworks +coalplant +bagel
12
#12
20 Frags +

can we just not with the crit a cola and vaccinator PLEASE

can we just not with the crit a cola and vaccinator PLEASE
13
#13
-4 Frags +

Naw man metal is so much better than badlands
-badlands -granary if you wanna change things

Naw man metal is so much better than badlands
-badlands -granary if you wanna change things
14
#14
24 Frags +

Dɪᴅ sᴏᴍᴇᴏɴᴇ sᴀʏ ᴠᴀᴄᴄɪɴᴀᴛᴏʀ?

Dɪᴅ sᴏᴍᴇᴏɴᴇ sᴀʏ ᴠᴀᴄᴄɪɴᴀᴛᴏʀ?
15
#15
-4 Frags +

+cp_reckoner +cp_logjam
-granary -badlands/cardinal

+cp_reckoner +cp_logjam
-granary -badlands/cardinal
16
#16
10 Frags +

Just sayin', there's plenty of great new maps (not even just mine!) out there to try...

Just sayin', there's plenty of great new maps (not even just mine!) out there to try...
17
#17
9 Frags +

It would be nice if we could add 2 more bans to the banning phase for regular season, or reduce the map pool to 7.

Random map selection negates the skill/depth that pick/ban phase adds.

It would be nice if we could add 2 more bans to the banning phase for regular season, or reduce the map pool to 7.

Random map selection negates the skill/depth that pick/ban phase adds.
18
#18
-15 Frags +

Logjam is infinitely better than gran/blands

Logjam is infinitely better than gran/blands
19
#19
-2 Frags +

I feel like everyones opinion matters in this conversation, not just mid IM players.

I feel like everyones opinion matters in this conversation, not just mid IM players.
20
#20
-4 Frags +

I liked the old sentiment of only banning weapons that would require the enemy team to actively play around. The current whitelist is probably closest to keeping this alive with my only gripes with
-cow mangler (regularly causes soldiers to hold a position and spam with no consequence)
+vaccinator (extremely situational)

I liked the old sentiment of only banning weapons that would require the enemy team to actively play around. The current whitelist is probably closest to keeping this alive with my only gripes with
-cow mangler (regularly causes soldiers to hold a position and spam with no consequence)
+vaccinator (extremely situational)
21
#21
29 Frags +

vaccinator shouldn't be unbanned because holding last should not be easier

vaccinator shouldn't be unbanned because holding last should not be easier
22
#22
-3 Frags +

First of all, it seems like the pocket pistol's and the Atomizer's unbanning went well so I think the rest of the leagues should consider also unbanning them (maybe it's not the case but I'm not seeing anyone complaining).
Second of all, as wish has mentioned about the Vaccinator, unless the medic is killed at the start of the push, the defending team would have a resistance from a source of damage and every 6 seconds they’ll get an even higher resistance for 2.5 seconds which makes them almost unkillable (although from my perspective it’s pure theory crafting, it seems like it’s already hard to kill people after the Uberfight).
Lastly, would class limits also be tested? From Ozfortress and ETF2L it seems like 2 Snipers and 2 spies did not hurt the game and even if it’s not that viable to run 2 spies or 2 snipers, it should be considered to change the limits to be more open because it seems like Valve don’t want accept the heavy class and weapon limits so loosening them a bit would surely be helpful right? Also I understand why heavy, Engineer, and medic are restricted to 1 but may someone please explain the other restrictions?

First of all, it seems like the pocket pistol's and the Atomizer's unbanning went well so I think the rest of the leagues should consider also unbanning them (maybe it's not the case but I'm not seeing anyone complaining).
Second of all, as wish has mentioned about the Vaccinator, unless the medic is killed at the start of the push, the defending team would have a resistance from a source of damage and every 6 seconds they’ll get an even higher resistance for 2.5 seconds which makes them almost unkillable (although from my perspective it’s pure theory crafting, it seems like it’s already hard to kill people after the Uberfight).
Lastly, would class limits also be tested? From Ozfortress and ETF2L it seems like 2 Snipers and 2 spies did not hurt the game and even if it’s not that viable to run 2 spies or 2 snipers, it should be considered to change the limits to be more open because it seems like Valve don’t want accept the heavy class and weapon limits so loosening them a bit would surely be helpful right? Also I understand why heavy, Engineer, and medic are restricted to 1 but may someone please explain the other restrictions?
23
#23
9 Frags +

Hello,

The goal of this project is to actually test changes rather than theorycraft over them.
It should look something like: create changes -> test changes -> discuss changes -> repeat.
If you want to have your theorycraft heard, this isn't the thread to do it.
Derailing will be moderated from this point forward.

Thanks

Hello,

The goal of this project is to actually test changes rather than theorycraft over them.
It should look something like: create changes -> test changes -> discuss changes -> repeat.
If you want to have your theorycraft heard, this isn't the thread to do it.
Derailing will be moderated from this point forward.

Thanks
24
#24
8 Frags +
wishvaccinator shouldn't be unbanned because holding last should not be easier

ya people in NA didn't use it that much at all but in EU like every med ran it at disadv and it was so fucking aids

[quote=wish]vaccinator shouldn't be unbanned because holding last should not be easier[/quote]
ya people in NA didn't use it that much at all but in EU like every med ran it at disadv and it was so fucking aids
25
#25
22 Frags +
lucrativethe whole point of the map system isn't to give you a weeks practice on a map lol the point is that your team can now focus on certain maps you're actually good at while having the option to not focus practice on maps you are bad at (3 Bans basically allows you 1 or 2 or i guess even 3 perma banned maps if you like) no other competitive game in a league based system plays the way the old ESEA map rotation worked.

The system also makes way more sense in the greater scheme of things because it will simulate the maps you end up playing in playoffs way more, and i believe the playoff matches have improved over all the divisions for the most part because of it.

I really don't see how you could find the old map rotation system superior the current one. (Is this derailing?)

The problem is the fact that the bans are completely blind from the other team, which makes it so both teams can decide to ban cardinal and granary, for example, and end up wasting bans and then ending up being RNG'd onto some other map neither team really wanted to play, like metalworks. If they changed it to a system like in playoffs where you just alternate banning until a map is selected I could get behind that, or at least made it so both team can't accidentally ban the same map.

Also, as berg said the randomness is stupid and should be removed imo. I also agree that having to play process/snake/gully all season is super boring and bland. I definitely preferred the old system where you have a full week to map review and perfect your play on each map vs two different teams then know what to expect when playoffs comes around. I for one liked the idea of striving to get as good as possible at every map, but with this system you're better off calling it quits for maps you're not good at like badlands, rather than working through it and figuring it out as a team. As much as it sucks to get the bad luck of having to play your rival team (that you need to beat to make playoffs for example) on a map that you aren't good at, I think it's fair to reward teams that are more well rounded and can win on any map, versus teams that just deliberately autobans 3 maps they're bad at/dont want to bother getting good at. If your team puts in the time and practice to get good at a few select maps that people don't play much or aren't good at,4 it's really stupid to have your opponents simply able to say nope not going to bother and just ban them off the bat.

I think we should be encouraging rather than discouraging teams to excel and get really good at their specialty maps cause it adds variety/depth and makes the game interesting (e.g., vel on snakewater), but allowing people to just ban them even in the regular season is a giant fuck you to teams like this. As much as I hated playing cardinal and think it's a terrible map, I do think it's good to reward teams that take the time and practice and get good at the fringe maps like that. Granted, having to play the regular season again with cardinal as one of the 8 weeks would be awful and I think it should be removed from the pool 100% if the system does end up getting reverted, the only way to justify adding maps like that is if you can always ban them.

[quote=lucrative]the whole point of the map system isn't to give you a weeks practice on a map lol the point is that your team can now focus on certain maps you're actually good at while having the option to not focus practice on maps you are bad at (3 Bans basically allows you 1 or 2 or i guess even 3 perma banned maps if you like) no other competitive game in a league based system plays the way the old ESEA map rotation worked.

The system also makes way more sense in the greater scheme of things because it will simulate the maps you end up playing in playoffs way more, and i believe the playoff matches have improved over all the divisions for the most part because of it.

I really don't see how you could find the old map rotation system superior the current one. (Is this derailing?)[/quote]
The problem is the fact that the bans are completely blind from the other team, which makes it so both teams can decide to ban cardinal and granary, for example, and end up wasting bans and then ending up being RNG'd onto some other map neither team really wanted to play, like metalworks. If they changed it to a system like in playoffs where you just alternate banning until a map is selected I could get behind that, or at least made it so both team can't accidentally ban the same map.

Also, as berg said the randomness is stupid and should be removed imo. I also agree that having to play process/snake/gully all season is super boring and bland. I definitely preferred the old system where you have a full week to map review and perfect your play on each map vs two different teams then know what to expect when playoffs comes around. I for one liked the idea of striving to get as good as possible at every map, but with this system you're better off calling it quits for maps you're not good at like badlands, rather than working through it and figuring it out as a team. As much as it sucks to get the bad luck of having to play your rival team (that you need to beat to make playoffs for example) on a map that you aren't good at, I think it's fair to reward teams that are more well rounded and can win on any map, versus teams that just deliberately autobans 3 maps they're bad at/dont want to bother getting good at. If your team puts in the time and practice to get good at a few select maps that people don't play much or aren't good at,4 it's really stupid to have your opponents simply able to say nope not going to bother and just ban them off the bat.

I think we should be encouraging rather than discouraging teams to excel and get really good at their specialty maps cause it adds variety/depth and makes the game interesting (e.g., vel on snakewater), but allowing people to just ban them even in the regular season is a giant fuck you to teams like this. As much as I hated playing cardinal and think it's a terrible map, I do think it's good to reward teams that take the time and practice and get good at the fringe maps like that. Granted, having to play the regular season again with cardinal as one of the 8 weeks would be awful and I think it should be removed from the pool 100% if the system does end up getting reverted, the only way to justify adding maps like that is if you can always ban them.
26
#26
14 Frags +

im not saying this is a viable option but if u rly wanna keep pick/ban u have to let both teams choose a map and have teams always playing bo3s instead of single maps

bears also right about basically everything

im not saying this is a viable option but if u rly wanna keep pick/ban u have to let both teams choose a map and have teams always playing bo3s instead of single maps

bears also right about basically everything
27
#27
3 Frags +

Haven't most of these already been tried previously and found not to be good? Testing is fine but should at least acknowledge these weapons haven't worked out in the past for reasons we seem to forget

Haven't most of these already been tried previously and found not to be good? Testing is fine but should at least acknowledge these weapons haven't worked out in the past for reasons we seem to forget
28
#28
2 Frags +
HellbentHaven't most of these already been tried previously and found not to be good? Testing is fine but should at least acknowledge these weapons haven't worked out in the past for reasons we seem to forget

They've all been changed since then, though.

[quote=Hellbent]Haven't most of these already been tried previously and found not to be good? Testing is fine but should at least acknowledge these weapons haven't worked out in the past for reasons we seem to forget[/quote]

They've all been changed since then, though.
29
#29
13 Frags +

I liked the old system where I don't have to play the same 2/3 maps the whole regular season.

I liked the old system where I don't have to play the same 2/3 maps the whole regular season.
30
#30
6 Frags +

Remember, in 'theory craft TF2' The Direct Hit is the most broken weapon in the game, sniper is by far the best class, and ambassador is still the best spy weapon.

Disciplinary Action, Vaccinator, and Crit-a-cola still def gotta stay out tho

Remember, in 'theory craft TF2' The Direct Hit is the most broken weapon in the game, sniper is by far the best class, and ambassador is still the best spy weapon.

Disciplinary Action, Vaccinator, and Crit-a-cola still def gotta stay out tho
1 2
Please sign in through STEAM to post a comment.