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The State of ESEA-Invite (a nerd essay)
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#1
0 Frags +

ESEA-Invite, the cream of the crop for the North American TF2 scene, has just witnessed the most one-sided season in its history. Froyotech has pulled off another impressive 16-0 season, as well as an undefeated off-season, combining for a total of 14 rounds lost across 22 maps played. The sheer dominance of Froyotech is unmatched by any team currently in Invite. And that is a scary fact to consider as Froyotech seems to be pulling away from the rest of the TF2 scene at an unprecedented rate, and appears to be unbeatable unless some catastrophic event occurs, or some massive NA roster shuffle takes place.

In my opinion, this is a massive issue for TF2 as a spectator esport. It is an issue when the battle for the #4 Invite seed and Intermediate Grand Finals are more exciting and unpredictable than the Grand Finals between the top 2 teams in North America. As a player who aspires to break into Invite one day, it is incredibly daunting to watch such an untouchable force have such control over the top division in North America, and while I can not speak for anybody currently in Invite, I will assume that it is immensely discouraging to know that Froyotech will come first place by such a wide margin to Ascent, and that Ascent will come second by such a wide margin to the third place team every season like clockwork (not the player). I think that in order for invite to be competitive again one of 2 things needs to happen:

a) Teams need to stick together and work harder to become better teams to rise up against froyotech.
Or,
b) Froyotech must distribute some of its talent to other high invite teams for the sake of good competition.

Unfortunately, as great as these solutions seem on paper, I see problems with both of them.
In the case of option a), TF2 isnt a full time job, and players have real lives they need to attend to, meaning they cannot spend all their free time on TF2. To add onto this, playing with certain players for long streches of time could prove to be a challenge, and personality differences may arise, causing a divide within teammates.
In the case of option b), people like to win, and once you win you want to keep on winning. I don't think its unreasonable to think that Froyo would want to hold onto its roster of all-star talent, and say "you nerds just need to get good."
No matter which way you look at it, it is undeniable that change needs to happen for Invite playoffs to be entertaining again.

***If I am wrong, misunderstanding something, or missing any details feel free to bring it up in the thread. All I wanted to do is to bring attention to the skill gap between Froyotech and the rest of Invite and to try to make Invite more competitive***

ESEA-Invite, the cream of the crop for the North American TF2 scene, has just witnessed the most one-sided season in its history. Froyotech has pulled off another impressive 16-0 season, as well as an undefeated off-season, combining for a total of 14 rounds lost across 22 maps played. The sheer dominance of Froyotech is unmatched by any team currently in Invite. And that is a scary fact to consider as Froyotech seems to be pulling away from the rest of the TF2 scene at an unprecedented rate, and appears to be unbeatable unless some catastrophic event occurs, or some massive NA roster shuffle takes place.

In my opinion, this is a massive issue for TF2 as a spectator esport. It is an issue when the battle for the #4 Invite seed and Intermediate Grand Finals are more exciting and unpredictable than the Grand Finals between the top 2 teams in North America. As a player who aspires to break into Invite one day, it is incredibly daunting to watch such an untouchable force have such control over the top division in North America, and while I can not speak for anybody currently in Invite, I will assume that it is immensely discouraging to know that Froyotech will come first place by such a wide margin to Ascent, and that Ascent will come second by such a wide margin to the third place team every season like clockwork (not the player). I think that in order for invite to be competitive again one of 2 things needs to happen:

[b]a)[/b] Teams need to stick together and work harder to become better teams to rise up against froyotech.
Or,
[b]b)[/b] Froyotech must distribute some of its talent to other high invite teams for the sake of good competition.

Unfortunately, as great as these solutions seem on paper, I see problems with both of them.
In the case of option a), TF2 isnt a full time job, and players have real lives they need to attend to, meaning they cannot spend all their free time on TF2. To add onto this, playing with certain players for long streches of time could prove to be a challenge, and personality differences may arise, causing a divide within teammates.
In the case of option b), people like to win, and once you win you want to keep on winning. I don't think its unreasonable to think that Froyo would want to hold onto its roster of all-star talent, and say "you nerds just need to get good."
No matter which way you look at it, it is undeniable that change needs to happen for Invite playoffs to be entertaining again.

[i]***If I am [b]wrong[/b], [b]misunderstanding[/b] something, or [b]missing any details[/b] feel free to bring it up in the thread. All I wanted to do is to bring attention to the skill gap between Froyotech and the rest of Invite and to try to make Invite more competitive***[/i]
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#2
8 Frags +

I think A is the most likely, most friendly and most enjoyable thing that could happen to the game as a spectator sport.

I genuinely believe that Froyo wasn't actually at its top though; it's just that other teams also weren't. After the finals, Nursey also tweeted about today's game and how she felt about it.

I think A is the most likely, most friendly and most enjoyable thing that could happen to the game as a spectator sport.

I genuinely believe that Froyo wasn't actually at its top though; it's just that other teams also weren't. After the finals, Nursey also tweeted about today's game and how she felt about it.
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#3
37 Frags +

I'm not a fan of how boring invite can be to watch as much as the next guy but b) would be a very retarded option. You should not punish a team for being too good in a competitive scene.

This finals was also particularly bad not because froyo was good but because ascent played much worse than they could normally. I feel like Ascent has been weak in recent seasons because their rosters kept changing season after season while froyo's has been solid except for replacing their pocket occasionally. In time ascent will catch up.

I'm not a fan of how boring invite can be to watch as much as the next guy but b) would be a very retarded option. You should not punish a team for being too good in a competitive scene.

This finals was also particularly bad not because froyo was good but because ascent played much worse than they could normally. I feel like Ascent has been weak in recent seasons because their rosters kept changing season after season while froyo's has been solid except for replacing their pocket occasionally. In time ascent will catch up.
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#4
47 Frags +

I am not a fan of B4nny but until other teams/players put in as much effort as he does they don't deserve to win. I don't see anything wrong here.

Edit: Bring back Mix^ tho

I am not a fan of B4nny but until other teams/players put in as much effort as he does they don't deserve to win. I don't see anything wrong here.

Edit: Bring back Mix^ tho
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#5
-2 Frags +

Communism For Competition

Ah yes truly what a competitive sport should be

Communism For Competition

Ah yes truly what a competitive sport should be
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#6
73 Frags +

did someone say undefeated

did someone say undefeated
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#7
26 Frags +

Exactly what Mecha said. Back when Froyo was even arguably more unbeatable than they are now (back when we had clock, lansky, duwatna) all of you called for the same "DISBAND FOR THE SAKE OF COMPETITION". And they did. B4nny then picked up players that he saw were hard working and made them the gamers they are today. No one deserves to win invite until a team works as hard or harder than b4nny does for froyo. Simple as that

Exactly what Mecha said. Back when Froyo was even arguably more unbeatable than they are now (back when we had clock, lansky, duwatna) all of you called for the same "DISBAND FOR THE SAKE OF COMPETITION". And they did. B4nny then picked up players that he saw were hard working and made them the gamers they are today. No one deserves to win invite until a team works as hard or harder than b4nny does for froyo. Simple as that
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#8
6 Frags +
Kalkindid someone say undefeated

kalkin saves invite

[quote=Kalkin]did someone say undefeated[/quote]
kalkin saves invite
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#9
44 Frags +

i feel like telling a team to disband for the sake of competition is stupid

i feel like telling a team to disband for the sake of competition is stupid
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#10
22 Frags +

luca goers reform and tf2 is saved

luca goers reform and tf2 is saved
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#11
5 Frags +

I agree with you guys, I'm just saying that B is an option. Nursey left froyotech because she wanted to have a better challenge and wanted to work harder for the win iirc, so mad respect to her. I'm not saying that froyotech would completely disband, but that one or maybe two individual players may think that winning is just too easy and go join other rosters. I'm not trying to say that Froyo should be punished for winning.

I believe that option A is the way to go on this one, but if someone from froyo joins ascent or some other team it would definitely knock froyo down a peg. that's all im saying when it comes to B.

I agree with you guys, I'm just saying that B is an option. Nursey left froyotech because she wanted to have a better challenge and wanted to work harder for the win iirc, so mad respect to her. I'm not saying that froyotech would completely disband, but that one or maybe two individual players may think that winning is just too easy and go join other rosters. I'm not trying to say that Froyo should be punished for winning.

I believe that option A is the way to go on this one, but if someone from froyo joins ascent or some other team it would definitely knock froyo down a peg. that's all im saying when it comes to B.
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#12
49 Frags +

the hardest choices require the strongest wills, ban banny for the greater good.

the hardest choices require the strongest wills, ban banny for the greater good.
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#13
23 Frags +

competition will only get better if there is more incentive to actually spend your free time to improve, aslong as thats not the case this kidsgame can only be treated as a hobby by 99% of the active playerbase

competition will only get better if there is more incentive to actually spend your free time to improve, aslong as thats not the case this kidsgame can only be treated as a hobby by 99% of the active playerbase
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#14
10 Frags +

Option B isn't even a reasonable solution though. No one in their right mind would willingly give up their spot on the a top team because that would mean they're throwing away extra money just for the sake of "competition", and in a game like this where money itself is scarce enough as it is, it wouldn't justify putting in that kind of time to play and improve anymore.

Option A is, of course, the most idealistic, but expecting anyone to follow through with it in this community is asking for a lot. People leave and make teams at the drop of a hat because it's far easier to leave your old team and do better with a new set of players than it is to improve the overall coordination of your old set. You could justify having the sort of patience to stick with the same group of people in hopes of things one day working out if the game had some sort of payoff to give back for that effort, but it just doesn't, so while I disagree with doing things this way, I at least understand why people would rather just try to make a better team. It's less effort and it saves time in a game where effort isn't rewarded and time is scarce enough as it is.

tldr; we're fucked

Option B isn't even a reasonable solution though. No one in their right mind would willingly give up their spot on the a top team because that would mean they're throwing away extra money just for the sake of "competition", and in a game like this where money itself is scarce enough as it is, it wouldn't justify putting in that kind of time to play and improve anymore.

Option A is, of course, the most idealistic, but expecting anyone to follow through with it in this community is asking for a lot. People leave and make teams at the drop of a hat because it's far easier to leave your old team and do better with a new set of players than it is to improve the overall coordination of your old set. You could justify having the sort of patience to stick with the same group of people in hopes of things one day working out if the game had some sort of payoff to give back for that effort, but it just doesn't, so while I disagree with doing things this way, I at least understand why people would rather just try to make a better team. It's less effort and it saves time in a game where effort isn't rewarded and time is scarce enough as it is.

tldr; we're fucked
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#15
49 Frags +

It might be a crazy idea but hear me out.

Option C isn't something you might be pleased with but it's the only true one.

Option C is the eager young blood you've always discarded, disregarded.

Option C is not belittling puggers because you don't know their name, or because they fucked up a bomb, or dropped an uber.

Option C is making the best of your years of playing TF2, teaching the lessons you've learned through your own journey to players who will make the exact same ones unless taught otherwise.

Option C is giving a chance, speaking, listening.

Option C is onward, forward, towards third place b4nny.

It might be a crazy idea but hear me out.

Option C isn't something you might be pleased with but it's the only true one.

Option C is the eager young blood you've always discarded, disregarded.

Option C is not belittling puggers because you don't know their name, or because they fucked up a bomb, or dropped an uber.

Option C is making the best of your years of playing TF2, teaching the lessons you've learned through your own journey to players who will make the exact same ones unless taught otherwise.

Option C is giving a chance, speaking, listening.

Option C is onward, forward, towards third place b4nny.
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#16
4 Frags +
twiikuuOption C

Option C is a nice one. I like option C and I doubt there's anyone who doesn't. But option C takes a lot of time, which means quite a few more seasons to Froyo. Additionally, it would have to lead into option A itself, otherwise we end up with great mix teams.

[quote=twiikuu]Option C [/quote]

Option C is a nice one. I like option C and I doubt there's anyone who doesn't. But option C takes a lot of time, which means quite a few more seasons to Froyo. Additionally, it would have to lead into option A itself, otherwise we end up with great mix teams.
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#17
0 Frags +

another one of these threads.
the same thing has been said over and over and yet nobody will ever do a thing about it, tf2 is seen as too much of a joke by everyone for there to be any change. if the intention was to genuinely keep teams alive and try to play at the top level, then nobody would sandbag, but it happens continuously.

another one of these threads.
the same thing has been said over and over and yet nobody will ever do a thing about it, tf2 is seen as too much of a joke by everyone for there to be any change. if the intention was to genuinely keep teams alive and try to play at the top level, then nobody would sandbag, but it happens continuously.
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#18
-2 Frags +
yoonaanother one of these threads.
the same thing has been said over and over and yet nobody will ever do a thing about it, tf2 is seen as too much of a joke by everyone for there to be any change. if the intention was to genuinely keep teams alive and try to play at the top level, then nobody would sandbag, but it happens continuously.

I never really understood the appeal of sandbagging either. Wouldn't you rather have the highest possible participation rather than a open playoff medal? And where's the enjoyment or improvement in it?

[quote=yoona]another one of these threads.
the same thing has been said over and over and yet nobody will ever do a thing about it, tf2 is seen as too much of a joke by everyone for there to be any change. if the intention was to genuinely keep teams alive and try to play at the top level, then nobody would sandbag, but it happens continuously.[/quote]

I never really understood the appeal of sandbagging either. Wouldn't you rather have the highest possible participation rather than a open playoff medal? And where's the enjoyment or improvement in it?
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#19
24 Frags +

In some ways option B is already happening as anyone can watch froyotech STV and streams and figure out how the team behave in most situations and how the comms are. I think what makes froyo win is mostly teamplay/gamesense more than DM. Froyo does not hold 'super secret' strats secret like a RTS player would, either, therefore what they do should be learneable by other invite teams with players of similar DM level.

People say "theres no incentive to work hard for this game" when they already spend 2+ hours/day grinding scrims/mge/dm/jump. What they really mean is "I can't be bothered to use some of this time to watch a fucking stv with my teammates"

In some ways option B is already happening as anyone can watch froyotech STV and streams and figure out how the team behave in most situations and how the comms are. I think what makes froyo win is mostly teamplay/gamesense more than DM. Froyo does not hold 'super secret' strats secret like a RTS player would, either, therefore what they do should be learneable by other invite teams with players of similar DM level.

People say "theres no incentive to work hard for this game" when they already spend 2+ hours/day grinding scrims/mge/dm/jump. What they really mean is "I can't be bothered to use some of this time to watch a fucking stv with my teammates"
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#20
5 Frags +

Could you theoretically build a team of players in invite that could match current froyo?

I'd say yes if they were hungry for it but invite players would obviously know better.

Could you theoretically build a team of players in invite that could match current froyo?

I'd say yes if they were hungry for it but invite players would obviously know better.
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#21
22 Frags +
GrapeJuiceIIIb) Froyotech must distribute some of its talent to other high invite teams for the sake of good competition.

https://i.imgur.com/PYiQrKg.jpg

[quote=GrapeJuiceIII]
[b]b)[/b] Froyotech must distribute some of its talent to other high invite teams for the sake of good competition.
[/quote]
https://i.imgur.com/PYiQrKg.jpg
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#22
32 Frags +

Playing and being good at tf2 is literally b4nny's job, theres just no reason for anyone to dedicate that many hours of the day towards tf2 because they have no reason to

Playing and being good at tf2 is literally b4nny's job, theres just no reason for anyone to dedicate that many hours of the day towards tf2 because they have no reason to
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#23
-5 Frags +
GrapeJuiceIIIb) Froyotech must distribute some of its talent to other high invite teams for the sake of good competition.

this is an awful idea,a better idea is to just send everyone in the froyotech roster into the fucking shadow realm

[quote=GrapeJuiceIII]
[b]b)[/b] Froyotech must distribute some of its talent to other high invite teams for the sake of good competition.
[/quote]

this is an awful idea,a better idea is to just send everyone in the froyotech roster into the fucking shadow realm
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#24
-4 Frags +
TwiggyIn some ways option B is already happening as anyone can watch froyotech STV and streams and figure out how the team behave in most situations and how the comms are. I think what makes froyo win is mostly teamplay/gamesense more than DM. Froyo does not hold 'super secret' strats secret like a RTS player would, either, therefore what they do should be learneable by other invite teams with players of similar DM level.

People say "theres no incentive to work hard for this game" when they already spend 2+ hours/day grinding scrims/mge/dm/jump. What they really mean is "I can't be bothered to use some of this time to watch a fucking stv with my teammates"

Froyo outclasses everyone purely out of having the DM high ground

edit: nvm, its cuz of bannyBrain

[quote=Twiggy]In some ways option B is already happening as anyone can watch froyotech STV and streams and figure out how the team behave in most situations and how the comms are. I think what makes froyo win is mostly teamplay/gamesense more than DM. Froyo does not hold 'super secret' strats secret like a RTS player would, either, therefore what they do should be learneable by other invite teams with players of similar DM level.

People say "theres no incentive to work hard for this game" when they already spend 2+ hours/day grinding scrims/mge/dm/jump. What they really mean is "I can't be bothered to use some of this time to watch a fucking stv with my teammates"[/quote]

[s]Froyo outclasses everyone purely out of having the DM high ground[/s]

edit: nvm, its cuz of bannyBrain
25
#25
49 Frags +

As one of the ONLINE Froyo slayers of 2014 on eLevate I can confirm that having a team stick together (or core players) for more than a year and a half does wonders to improving as a team. We went from 3rd and 4th place in our first 2 seasons to 16-0 the season afterwards b/c we stuck together and then poached cozen basically. Idk what rosters you guys are making rn but make sure the froyo slayer team has marmaloo on it.

U guys can do it gl

Never forget https://youtu.be/Ed2Gnl9Zl04

As one of the ONLINE Froyo slayers of 2014 on eLevate I can confirm that having a team stick together (or core players) for more than a year and a half does wonders to improving as a team. We went from 3rd and 4th place in our first 2 seasons to 16-0 the season afterwards b/c we stuck together and then poached cozen basically. Idk what rosters you guys are making rn but make sure the froyo slayer team has marmaloo on it.

U guys can do it gl

Never forget https://youtu.be/Ed2Gnl9Zl04
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#26
-2 Frags +

why does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho

why does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho
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#27
14 Frags +
malywhy does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho

Even though they're in a different div, Faint Gaming is quite close behind Se7en. Also, Se7en was beaten by Arctic Foxes in recent memory. Also, Se7en hasn't had Froyo levels of dominance for as long.

[quote=maly]why does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho[/quote]
Even though they're in a different div, Faint Gaming is quite close behind Se7en. Also, Se7en was beaten by Arctic Foxes in recent memory. Also, Se7en hasn't had Froyo levels of dominance for as long.
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#28
13 Frags +
malywhy does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho

se7en isnt that long lived or dominant
ppl only felt that way in the epsilon era in europe

[quote=maly]why does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho[/quote]
se7en isnt that long lived or dominant
ppl only felt that way in the epsilon era in europe
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#29
14 Frags +
malywhy does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho

http://etf2l.org/etf2l/archives/489/ ???????????

[quote=maly]why does nobody rage about 7 rolling etf2l tho[/quote]
http://etf2l.org/etf2l/archives/489/ ???????????
30
#30
38 Frags +

Wait, the team that can spend all their time playing this game and not be homeless in a year are the best team? Crazy..

Wait, the team that can spend all their time playing this game and not be homeless in a year are the best team? Crazy..
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