Claymore-Even if that were true, we're not in an "industry" right now. It's a forum for a competitive niche for an old game and we can police content shared here. We don't have to adopt, encourage or platform this shit here. If someone's paid to shill it, they're welcome to go to Hacker News.
[...]
I do believe we should, because this place isn't a forum for the general public. I believe raising awareness of the socioeconomic and cultural impacts of this technology is more than welcome. AI-boosters conveniently leave out or brush aside conversations regarding the impact and focus on the shiny new tools all the time, and I'm kind of tired of it, when we don't consider the theft that led to it, invasive datacenters disrupting communities, deskilling and psychosis induced by LLMs and GenAI or torrents of slop everywhere an upload form exists.
You can't play the "we are not in an industry we are in a forum for a niche game" card and then also advocate for talking about the negative aspects of this technology that reach far beyond this niche game. I haven't heard an actual good reason against going 1984 on these TF2 AI projects. A vast majority of what you mentioned doesn't affect TF2 in the slightest. Feel free to tell me what kind of impact these AI slop projects have on the game itself to warrant having the same negative reaction to it as if a multi billion company just released a vibecoded product they're trying to sell you. The reality is even a good chunk of players probably don't care, so there would be no point in trying to educate people on stuff like general AI ethics when often they don't even apply to some dude making a AI TF2 project in his free time.
Claymore-"Learn to work with it" as in become an auditor for a non-deterministic, median, stolen answer generator. Got it. Thing is, most people come here after work and they probably don't want to expose themselves to any more bullshit forced on them. It's already hard enough to filter it out from algorithimically-powered feeds (Hacker News is fucking destroyed, 80% of the frontpage is AI, every single day), but this isn't one of them.
I refuse to believe this is an actual take. The implication is that people are actively checking the "projects" section after work, which is obviously not true. On top of that there is a feature to unsubscribe from specific sections of this forum. Projects wouldn't even get any traffic at all if they didn't show up in recent discussion for everyone. Just filter it out if it bothers you, it's the only forum section with AI content.
Claymore-Cars had fairly obvious benefits to using a real animal for transportation and have proven themselves practical and of great utility, even to your average Joe. I do not see the same thing being the case with AI, even if you claim that the whole industry is using it (though not everyone being forced to use it, is that impressed by it). I'm not sure how any of this is worth trillions of dollars or how we should ignore the absurd scale of theft that led to it.
No, they were hated in the beginning and got more popular over time. You think the average joe could afford a car in during that time? Anyway the point being is that you can't stop progress. All this talk about artisan craftsmanship, intellectual theft, ethics, etc. is very noble, but ultimately pointless. The fight is already over. This is why I'm saying learn to work with it. You are gonna get left behind. Your employer only cares about money, your customers only want a working product. Nobody ever cared about the code under the hood being an amalgamation of the worst programming warcrimes known to mankind. So nothing has changed realistically. You are actively worsening your own mental by trying to maintain some sort of principles regarding AI when nobody else in real life does. I'm quite fond of people pushing back against companies that try to integrate AI content, however this ONLY ever happens online.
ZestyOther people have made similar points but I think this is a really poor argument. It basically just boils down to "companies will will use any means to increase its profits and the consumer doesn't care so there's nothing you can do to compel them to stop". You could just as well make the same argument for industries using sweatshops or modern slave labour, but we do make an attempt to regulate these and other things that increase productivity but lower people's working conditions.
Yes they do and yes the consumer couldn't care less.
Also AI is hardly comparable to slave labour. You can't tell me Nike using AI content would be the same as Nike utilizing bangladeshi children to produce cheap sneakers. Also, you are aware that these regulations exist but they only ever get enforced if they get caught, right? And even then they get a slap on the wrist with an arbitrary fine. These regulations exist to appease you, the big companies don't give a fuck about them. On top of that the consumer doesn't care about any of that either. People only speak up if it goes viral so they can feel good about themselves, just to order $200 worth of temu the next day. I don't really see how AI has lowered peoples working conditions anyway? Maybe the expectation for accelerated productivity. But surely you don't believe that a system built on always increasing the bottom line will ever regulate that part, right?
ZestyIf your breadwinning is affected by AI, then if you're lucky your job stays but the expectation becomes that you're far more productive and your job becomes cleaning up large amounts of slop that the AI generates. If you're a person that's spent time building a career in a subject that you're passionate about then this changes your job to kind of a miserable middle management role that also requires far less expertise, so you become inherently more replaceable. If you're one of the unlucky ones your job is replaced entirely, which is the stated goal of AI for around 40% of the population. People love to talk about the industrial revolution and AI creating new kinds of jobs, but historically these new kinds of jobs can take decades to centuries to manifest (often after a lot of public pushback that sometimes gets quite nasty), and in the short term (a working persons remaining lifespan), these types of technological revolutions just push a lot of people into poverty.
This is why I advise that people need to learn to work with it. One of the rare positive aspects of this whole bullshit is that the level of competition is declining rapidly. Because for whatever reason people can only think of two possible ways: 0% AI used or 100% AI used. You rarely hear from people that use it as an addition, as a tool to accelerate their workflow for example. If you manage to use it to enhance your efficiency you are probably already better than 80% of the current workforce. If your only value is to be the meat proxy you already lost. I agree it's annoying that a field you had passion for got sloppified, but to be completely honest your employer didn't ever give a fuck about that anyway. Anybody that actually turned a hobby into a job knows that it is absolutely miserable and kills any passion you have for it.
[quote=Claymore-]
Even if that were true, we're not in an "industry" right now. It's a forum for a competitive niche for an old game and we can police content shared here. We don't have to adopt, encourage or platform this shit here. If someone's paid to shill it, they're welcome to go to Hacker News.
[...]
I do believe we should, because this place isn't a forum for the general public. I believe raising awareness of the socioeconomic and cultural impacts of this technology is more than welcome. AI-boosters conveniently leave out or brush aside conversations regarding the impact and focus on the shiny new tools all the time, and I'm kind of tired of it, when we don't consider the theft that led to it, invasive datacenters disrupting communities, deskilling and psychosis induced by LLMs and GenAI or torrents of slop everywhere an upload form exists.
[/quote]
You can't play the "we are not in an industry we are in a forum for a niche game" card and then also advocate for talking about the negative aspects of this technology that reach far beyond this niche game. I haven't heard an actual good reason against going 1984 on these TF2 AI projects. A vast majority of what you mentioned doesn't affect TF2 in the slightest. Feel free to tell me what kind of impact these AI slop projects have on the game itself to warrant having the same negative reaction to it as if a multi billion company just released a vibecoded product they're trying to sell you. The reality is even a good chunk of players probably don't care, so there would be no point in trying to educate people on stuff like general AI ethics when often they don't even apply to some dude making a AI TF2 project in his free time.
[quote=Claymore-]
"Learn to work with it" as in become an auditor for a non-deterministic, median, stolen answer generator. Got it. Thing is, most people come here after work and they probably don't want to expose themselves to any more bullshit forced on them. It's already hard enough to filter it out from algorithimically-powered feeds (Hacker News is fucking destroyed, 80% of the frontpage is AI, every single day), but this isn't one of them.
[/quote]
I refuse to believe this is an actual take. The implication is that people are actively checking the "projects" section after work, which is obviously not true. On top of that there is a feature to unsubscribe from specific sections of this forum. Projects wouldn't even get any traffic at all if they didn't show up in recent discussion for everyone. Just filter it out if it bothers you, it's the only forum section with AI content.
[quote=Claymore-]
Cars had fairly obvious benefits to using a real animal for transportation and have proven themselves practical and of great utility, even to your average Joe. I do not see the same thing being the case with AI, even if you claim that the whole industry is using it (though not everyone being forced to use it, is that impressed by it). I'm not sure how any of this is worth trillions of dollars or how we should ignore the absurd scale of theft that led to it.
[/quote]
No, they were hated in the beginning and got more popular over time. You think the average joe could afford a car in during that time? Anyway the point being is that you can't stop progress. All this talk about artisan craftsmanship, intellectual theft, ethics, etc. is very noble, but ultimately pointless. The fight is already over. This is why I'm saying learn to work with it. You are gonna get left behind. Your employer only cares about money, your customers only want a working product. Nobody ever cared about the code under the hood being an amalgamation of the worst programming warcrimes known to mankind. So nothing has changed realistically. You are actively worsening your own mental by trying to maintain some sort of principles regarding AI when nobody else in real life does. I'm quite fond of people pushing back against companies that try to integrate AI content, however this ONLY ever happens online.
[quote=Zesty]
Other people have made similar points but I think this is a really poor argument. It basically just boils down to "companies will will use any means to increase its profits and the consumer doesn't care so there's nothing you can do to compel them to stop". You could just as well make the same argument for industries using sweatshops or modern slave labour, but we do make an attempt to regulate these and other things that increase productivity but lower people's working conditions.[/quote]
Yes they do and yes the consumer couldn't care less.
Also AI is hardly comparable to slave labour. You can't tell me Nike using AI content would be the same as Nike utilizing bangladeshi children to produce cheap sneakers. Also, you are aware that these regulations exist but they only ever get enforced if they get caught, right? And even then they get a slap on the wrist with an arbitrary fine. These regulations exist to appease you, the big companies don't give a fuck about them. On top of that the consumer doesn't care about any of that either. People only speak up if it goes viral so they can feel good about themselves, just to order $200 worth of temu the next day. I don't really see how AI has lowered peoples working conditions anyway? Maybe the expectation for accelerated productivity. But surely you don't believe that a system built on always increasing the bottom line will ever regulate that part, right?
[quote=Zesty]
If your breadwinning is affected by AI, then if you're lucky your job stays but the expectation becomes that you're far more productive and your job becomes cleaning up large amounts of slop that the AI generates. If you're a person that's spent time building a career in a subject that you're passionate about then this changes your job to kind of a miserable middle management role that also requires far less expertise, so you become inherently more replaceable. If you're one of the unlucky ones your job is replaced entirely, which is the stated goal of AI for around 40% of the population. People love to talk about the industrial revolution and AI creating new kinds of jobs, but historically these new kinds of jobs can take decades to centuries to manifest (often after a lot of public pushback that sometimes gets quite nasty), and in the short term (a working persons remaining lifespan), these types of technological revolutions just push a lot of people into poverty.[/quote]
This is why I advise that people need to learn to work with it. One of the rare positive aspects of this whole bullshit is that the level of competition is declining rapidly. Because for whatever reason people can only think of two possible ways: 0% AI used or 100% AI used. You rarely hear from people that use it as an addition, as a tool to accelerate their workflow for example. If you manage to use it to enhance your efficiency you are probably already better than 80% of the current workforce. If your only value is to be the meat proxy you already lost. I agree it's annoying that a field you had passion for got sloppified, but to be completely honest your employer didn't ever give a fuck about that anyway. Anybody that actually turned a hobby into a job knows that it is absolutely miserable and kills any passion you have for it.
guy who gets insanely pressed because someone said they don't like LLMs so he goes "well actually sweatshops aren't that big of a deal"
guy who gets insanely pressed because someone said they don't like LLMs so he goes "well actually sweatshops aren't that big of a deal"
i've run out of energy trying to describe the complete removal of your human soul because of your brain being one shot by the idea of a robot who makes toys for you. you are gay. stop posting
i've run out of energy trying to describe the complete removal of your human soul because of your brain being one shot by the idea of a robot who makes toys for you. you are gay. stop posting
Gaztldr
grok, summarize this post for me. also, take this guys clo
[quote=Gaz]tldr[/quote]
grok, summarize this post for me. also, take this guys clo
MozzarellaFireFoxGaztldr
grok, summarize this post for me. also, take this guys clo
Post Summary
The poster (Gaz) is replying to user Claymore-, arguing strongly in favor of accepting/learning to live with AI technology rather than banning or fighting it on a niche forum:
Relevance to the Forum: Gaz claims that general AI ethical concerns (data theft, LLM slop, environmental/social impacts) have little to no actual impact on Team Fortress 2 or a small hobbyist community, so heavy moderation against casual AI projects is unwarranted.
Filtering Content: Gaz points out that users who don't want to see AI projects can simply filter or unsubscribe from the "Projects" section of the forum rather than trying to police the whole space.
Inevitable Progress: Comparing AI adoption to the history of automobiles, Gaz argues that technology cannot be stopped once adopted. They contend that employers only care about profit and consumers only care about a working product—not how the code was generated or whether ethics were involved.
Pragmatic Stance: Gaz advises that resisting AI is a losing battle that only harms one's mental health, urging people to learn to work with AI to stay competitive in the workplace as quality standards shift.
"Take" on the Poster's Arguments
Logical Flaw / Deflection on Sweatshops: As highlighted at the bottom of the second screenshot by user Richarrrd, Gaz's rebuttal to ethical concerns leads into a questionable justification—arguing that consumers don't care about ethical issues like sweatshop labor either, so why care about AI ethics? Pointing out another unethical practice to normalize AI adoption isn't a strong defense; it's just cynical defeatism.
Overly Pragmatic to the Point of Fatalism: Gaz treats corporate adoption as an unshakeable law of nature. While it's true that efficiency often wins in commercial markets, assuming human values, artistic preferences, and community standards hold zero weight ignores how communities actively set their own rules.
Forgetting Community Identity: Gaz argues "we're in a forum for a niche game," but fails to realize niche communities are precisely where people go to escape corporate hyper-optimization and algorithmically generated content. Banning AI slop in a small forum isn't about stopping global tech trends; it's about preserving the quality and human feel of that specific space.
[quote=MozzarellaFireFox][quote=Gaz]tldr[/quote]
grok, summarize this post for me. also, take this guys clo[/quote]
Post Summary
The poster (Gaz) is replying to user Claymore-, arguing strongly in favor of accepting/learning to live with AI technology rather than banning or fighting it on a niche forum:
Relevance to the Forum: Gaz claims that general AI ethical concerns (data theft, LLM slop, environmental/social impacts) have little to no actual impact on Team Fortress 2 or a small hobbyist community, so heavy moderation against casual AI projects is unwarranted.
Filtering Content: Gaz points out that users who don't want to see AI projects can simply filter or unsubscribe from the "Projects" section of the forum rather than trying to police the whole space.
Inevitable Progress: Comparing AI adoption to the history of automobiles, Gaz argues that technology cannot be stopped once adopted. They contend that employers only care about profit and consumers only care about a working product—not how the code was generated or whether ethics were involved.
Pragmatic Stance: Gaz advises that resisting AI is a losing battle that only harms one's mental health, urging people to learn to work with AI to stay competitive in the workplace as quality standards shift.
"Take" on the Poster's Arguments
Logical Flaw / Deflection on Sweatshops: As highlighted at the bottom of the second screenshot by user Richarrrd, Gaz's rebuttal to ethical concerns leads into a questionable justification—arguing that consumers don't care about ethical issues like sweatshop labor either, so why care about AI ethics? Pointing out another unethical practice to normalize AI adoption isn't a strong defense; it's just cynical defeatism.
Overly Pragmatic to the Point of Fatalism: Gaz treats corporate adoption as an unshakeable law of nature. While it's true that efficiency often wins in commercial markets, assuming human values, artistic preferences, and community standards hold zero weight ignores how communities actively set their own rules.
Forgetting Community Identity: Gaz argues "we're in a forum for a niche game," but fails to realize niche communities are precisely where people go to escape corporate hyper-optimization and algorithmically generated content. Banning AI slop in a small forum isn't about stopping global tech trends; it's about preserving the quality and human feel of that specific space.
Unfortunately you have baited me into responding with the longest nerd essay i've ever written.
GazJust filter it out if it bothers you
Gazlearn to work with it. You are gonna get left behind
These attitudes just seem very contradictory however you look at them. It just feels like you're saying that people should never complain.
GazAlso AI is hardly comparable to slave labour.
If the stated goal of AI is to make something that is self aware and conscious (or "has a soul" or whatever Amodei seems to be spouting these days) then yes you're pretty much trying to achieve a form of slavery. Obviously that's almost entirely hype, and I don't think we're at that stage currently and likely never will be, but isn't it the mission statement of a lot of these companies?
GazPeople only speak up if it goes viral so they can feel good about themselves, just to order $200 worth of temu the next day.
These two sentences in particular, but a lot of your post seems to indicate that you believe humans are inherently selfish and only hold ethical beliefs to signal virtue or feel superiority (perhaps you don't feel this way but your posts make it seem like it). I don't have much to say to this except that it's completely incompatible with my experience of the world. However, I can understand why it can be easy to believe (particularly if you spend a lot of time online) because some of the nastiest people are some of the loudest and that is something they do. However, even if you do believe this you still have to concede that if AI companies achieve their stated mission of getting rid of the jobs of huge swathes of the population, those people will continue to act in their own self interest to survive and this may not be particularly good for the stability of society or the security of those who kept their jobs.
GazI don't really see how AI has lowered peoples working conditions anyway?
AI enables organizations to massively increase productivity (and therefore supply) without taking on additional employees. In industries where there's a lot of unmet demand, this is probably quite good and people are quite happy but that's not the case in a lot of places where AI is being used. This leads to you getting a ton of overproduction of slop (subject of this thread lol) but also means that you can maintain the same level of productivity with far fewer people - this means a lot of people can just get laid off and the people left probably aren't having a great time either. This seems to have happened a lot in tech and so far in other industries it just seems like they just aren't hiring junior people. But if we stay on the same trajectory it's either going to start replacing senior jobs too, or people just have more and more to do as the older generation retire out.
GazBut surely you don't believe that a system built on always increasing the bottom line will ever regulate that part, right?
Yeah this has always been a problem - see deindustrialization and outsourcing in a lot of western countries that happened in the second half of the 20th century (food for thought, those areas that were formerly heavily industrialized are still some of the most impoverished in their respective countries decades later). It's very obvious that this technology could potentially affect much wider swathes of society and it seems really short sighted that we're not trying to put anything in place for that. The idea that regulations that reduce companies bottom line never work is frankly laughable, it's so patently not true that when my five year old son read it on his way down to the mines, he spat out a mouthful of lead-water he'd just taken a swig of from his asbestos-lined bottle.
I agree it's annoying that a field you had passion for got sloppified, but to be completely honest your employer didn't ever give a fuck about that anyway. Anybody that actually turned a hobby into a job knows that it is absolutely miserable and kills any passion you have for it.
Quite the opposite actually, I've been doing what I've been doing for 11 years, and maybe this is hard for a lot of people to believe but I derive a lot of joy from a lot of the work that I do even when it's difficult. Fortunately, I'm doing something very obscure that doesn't make any real money and the pressure to be productive operates on much longer timescales for me so there's not the need for immediacy that AI rewards. Additionally there are quite a few aspects of my job that are physical and will probably take a relatively long time to be automated. Having said all that, those economic pressures are still there, and many parts of my job that give me joy and involve thinking, problem solving, creativity, learning or curiosity now just feel like a waste of time - I think I can see the writing on the wall. I can't imagine how people working in a fast moving industry feel.
Unfortunately you have baited me into responding with the longest nerd essay i've ever written.
[quote=Gaz]
Just filter it out if it bothers you
[/quote]
[quote=Gaz]
learn to work with it. You are gonna get left behind
[/quote]
These attitudes just seem very contradictory however you look at them. It just feels like you're saying that people should never complain.
[quote=Gaz]
Also AI is hardly comparable to slave labour.
[/quote]
If the stated goal of AI is to make something that is self aware and conscious (or "has a soul" or whatever Amodei seems to be spouting these days) then yes you're pretty much trying to achieve a form of slavery. Obviously that's almost entirely hype, and I don't think we're at that stage currently and likely never will be, but isn't it the mission statement of a lot of these companies?
[quote=Gaz]
People only speak up if it goes viral so they can feel good about themselves, just to order $200 worth of temu the next day.
[/quote]
These two sentences in particular, but a lot of your post seems to indicate that you believe humans are inherently selfish and only hold ethical beliefs to signal virtue or feel superiority (perhaps you don't feel this way but your posts make it seem like it). I don't have much to say to this except that it's completely incompatible with my experience of the world. However, I can understand why it can be easy to believe (particularly if you spend a lot of time online) because some of the nastiest people are some of the loudest and that is something they do. However, even if you do believe this you still have to concede that if AI companies achieve their stated mission of getting rid of the jobs of huge swathes of the population, those people will continue to act in their own self interest to survive and this may not be particularly good for the stability of society or the security of those who kept their jobs.
[quote=Gaz]
I don't really see how AI has lowered peoples working conditions anyway?
[/quote]
AI enables organizations to massively increase productivity (and therefore supply) without taking on additional employees. In industries where there's a lot of unmet demand, this is probably quite good and people are quite happy but that's not the case in a lot of places where AI is being used. This leads to you getting a ton of overproduction of slop (subject of this thread lol) but also means that you can maintain the same level of productivity with far fewer people - this means a lot of people can just get laid off and the people left probably aren't having a great time either. This seems to have happened a lot in tech and so far in other industries it just seems like they just aren't hiring junior people. But if we stay on the same trajectory it's either going to start replacing senior jobs too, or people just have more and more to do as the older generation retire out.
[quote=Gaz]
But surely you don't believe that a system built on always increasing the bottom line will ever regulate that part, right?
[/quote]
Yeah this has always been a problem - see deindustrialization and outsourcing in a lot of western countries that happened in the second half of the 20th century (food for thought, those areas that were formerly heavily industrialized are still some of the most impoverished in their respective countries decades later). It's very obvious that this technology could potentially affect much wider swathes of society and it seems really short sighted that we're not trying to put anything in place for that. The idea that regulations that reduce companies bottom line never work is frankly laughable, it's so patently not true that when my five year old son read it on his way down to the mines, he spat out a mouthful of lead-water he'd just taken a swig of from his asbestos-lined bottle.
[quote]I agree it's annoying that a field you had passion for got sloppified, but to be completely honest your employer didn't ever give a fuck about that anyway. Anybody that actually turned a hobby into a job knows that it is absolutely miserable and kills any passion you have for it.[/quote]
Quite the opposite actually, I've been doing what I've been doing for 11 years, and maybe this is hard for a lot of people to believe but I derive a lot of joy from a lot of the work that I do even when it's difficult. Fortunately, I'm doing something very obscure that doesn't make any real money and the pressure to be productive operates on much longer timescales for me so there's not the need for immediacy that AI rewards. Additionally there are quite a few aspects of my job that are physical and will probably take a relatively long time to be automated. Having said all that, those economic pressures are still there, and many parts of my job that give me joy and involve thinking, problem solving, creativity, learning or curiosity now just feel like a waste of time - I think I can see the writing on the wall. I can't imagine how people working in a fast moving industry feel.
Anyway sorry for posting my honest feelings on the competitive tf2 forums guys, I just didn't really feel up to making a glib shitpost today. Enjoy this screenshot of an awesome ownage Post that's way funnier than anything I or anyone else in this thread could come up with.
https://i.imgur.com/1BzRpUt.png
Anyway sorry for posting my honest feelings on the competitive tf2 forums guys, I just didn't really feel up to making a glib shitpost today. Enjoy this screenshot of an awesome ownage Post that's way funnier than anything I or anyone else in this thread could come up with.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/1BzRpUt.png[/img]
I think it's pretty reasonable to compare LLMs to slave labor personally because LLMs also steal the labor of human beings and take all the profit. That money never comes back to the average person, it's all so a small handful of sociopaths can watch the Number Go Up in their bank accounts.
I understand Gaz's point of view but believe it is coming from a place of nihilism where they genuinely think we have no agency to change the shitty things about society as it is currently. They have fully bought into the narrative of "progress".
I think it's pretty reasonable to compare LLMs to slave labor personally because LLMs also steal the labor of human beings and take all the profit. That money never comes back to the average person, it's all so a small handful of sociopaths can watch the Number Go Up in their bank accounts.
I understand Gaz's point of view but believe it is coming from a place of nihilism where they genuinely think we have no agency to change the shitty things about society as it is currently. They have fully bought into the narrative of "progress".
ZestyAnyway sorry for posting my honest feelings on the competitive tf2 forums guys, I just didn't really feel up to making a glib shitpost today.
https://64.media.tumblr.com/7ea8b1ecced8931cd5d0fe7d423af0b7/0e618807eaf32f95-01/s1280x1920/ce4b6983d55022aa3bed200d06aaaa054f1abc8c.jpg
most people can do the former but true sincereposting is a sign of your humanity... RELISH IN IT!
[quote=Zesty]Anyway sorry for posting my honest feelings on the competitive tf2 forums guys, I just didn't really feel up to making a glib shitpost today. [/quote]
[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/7ea8b1ecced8931cd5d0fe7d423af0b7/0e618807eaf32f95-01/s1280x1920/ce4b6983d55022aa3bed200d06aaaa054f1abc8c.jpg[/img]
most people can do the former but true sincereposting is a sign of your humanity... RELISH IN IT!
[quote=springrolls][/quote]
downfragged
https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/encyclicals/documents/20260515-magnifica-humanitas.html
Zestyspringrolls
downfragged
my b me too
[quote=Zesty][quote=springrolls][/quote]
downfragged[/quote]
my b me too