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Announcing the GGL Advanced Playoffs
1
#1
0 Frags +

Announcing the GGL Advanced Playoffs

With all the attention the elijah situation has gotten, I expect RGL to expel chatCCP soon, so hopefully this alternative plan will not be necessary and the normal RGL playoffs will proceed as normal.

However, if RGL refuses to act on this in a timely manner before playoff matches begin, I am hosting the GGL People's Championship Playoffs, which will feature the 2nd through 5th seeds in a double elimination bracket (identical structure to the normal RGL playoffs format).

In other words, the participants would be, in some order:
PEGMODE
The Goblin Zone
chell team
fgp

We will use the same config and map list. All standards of the normal RGL rulebook will be enforced. There is one additional rule. Anyone who has received a cheating ban during the RGL-era (post-ESEA) will not be allowed to participate in any match. We (the GGL) hope in the future, that RGL will implement this standard as well, at the very least, for any future bans as it has been proven by this situation that RGL does not have the resources to effectively police repeat offenders in a timely manner. This is not an insult to RGL, but simply the reality that there isn't enough staff on the anti-cheat team to respond to every report quickly enough.

To participate, the participants must withdraw from RGL Season 12 playoffs to participate in this tournament instead to determine the true people's champ of the season. If they wish, they may also play the RGL Season 12 playoff matches as normal but must forfeit all playoff games to chatCCP.

The teams agree that if chatCCP is expelled after the GGL playoff starts, that the match results played in the GGL will be respected as the official RGL match results if RGL allows. In other words, if chatCCP is expelled after the first round of the GGL playoffs has been completed, the teams agree to report the GGL first round results as the RGL first round results (if RGL allows) and the remaining GGL matches will be cancelled unless the teams agree to continue playing the GGL tournament instead.

The GGL tournament will have a prize pool starting at $200 for the winner (this prize is funded out of pocket by the tournament organizer). Any further donations or funding will be split equally amongst the four participating teams. If this tournament happens, Fireside Casts has agreed to cast the finals, as well as other matches potentially.

The tournament will be ran through Discord and Challonge (for the bracket). Pick/bans will be done in the official Discord channel and will follow the same structure as RGL pick/bans for this season of Advanced.

The Discord will be public and have public channels for announcements of match times so people can follow the tournament.

So far, all teams (2nd through 5th) have tentatively accepted the offer or expressed interest in participating in the alternative tournament if chatCCP is not expelled from RGL.

If one team decides not to participate, but the rest of the teams agree to do so, the GGL playoff will proceed with three teams as a double elimination tournament.

If only two teams agree to participate, then instead, the People's Championship Bowl will be played instead, a single BO3 series to determine the true people's champion for a prize of $100 + donations split amongst the two teams.

An announcement will be made on Sunday that the tournament is cancelled (since RGL playoffs can proceed as normal) if chatCCP is expelled by then. If Sunday comes and chatCCP is not expelled, this tournament will proceed until chatCCP is expelled.

The playoff schedule will either be (identical to the current intended RGL schedule):

MONDAY, JULY 17th
- Upper 1 and Upper 2
TUESDAY, JULY 18th
- Lower 1 and Upper Bracket Finals
WEDNESDAY, JULY 19th
- Lower Bracket Finals
THURSDAY, JULY 20th
- Grand Finals

Or:

TUESDAY, JULY 18th (Reschedulable to the 19th)
- Upper 1 and Upper 2 (Rescheduable up to the 24th)
THURSDAY, JULY 20th
- Lower 1 and Upper Bracket Finals
TUESDAY, JULY 25th (Reschedulable up to the 26th)
- Lower Bracket Finals
THURSDAY, JULY 27th (Reschedulable up to August 2nd)
- Grand Finals

These dates can be played earlier if the teams agree.

So far, I have received firm or tentative agreements from each team I have contacted, please contact me on Discord or reply to this post if you have an update on participation, or if you have concerns/questions.

Contact me on Discord if you wish to donate to the prize pool. If the tournament is cancelled for any reason, you will receive a full refund. You may also send donations to the following PayPal: jonathanallenray1@gmail.com.

Discord contact: _giblert

Current community contribution pledged (not counting RGL contribution): $751
Pledges (if this tournament happens)
Anonymous: $300
rkcbb: $101
Sol: $100
Anonymous: $100
playmo: $25
Jaguar: $25

7/14 Update: https://www.teamfortress.tv/63358/announcing-the-ggl-advanced-playoffs/?page=3#82
7/16 Update: This tournament will fortunately no longer be needed, as chatCCP has been expelled. Thank you all for your support and good luck to the Advanced playoffs teams. Donors have all been refunded.

[b]Announcing the GGL Advanced Playoffs[/b]

With all the attention the elijah situation has gotten, I expect RGL to expel chatCCP soon, so hopefully this alternative plan will not be necessary and the normal RGL playoffs will proceed as normal.

However, if RGL refuses to act on this in a timely manner before playoff matches begin, I am hosting the GGL People's Championship Playoffs, which will feature the 2nd through 5th seeds in a double elimination bracket (identical structure to the normal RGL playoffs format).

[b]In other words, the participants would be, in some order:[/b]
PEGMODE
The Goblin Zone
chell team
fgp

We will use the same config and map list. All standards of the normal RGL rulebook will be enforced. There is one additional rule. Anyone who has received a cheating ban during the RGL-era (post-ESEA) will not be allowed to participate in any match. We (the GGL) hope in the future, that RGL will implement this standard as well, at the very least, for any future bans as it has been proven by this situation that RGL does not have the resources to effectively police repeat offenders in a timely manner. This is not an insult to RGL, but simply the reality that there isn't enough staff on the anti-cheat team to respond to every report quickly enough.

To participate, the participants must withdraw from RGL Season 12 playoffs to participate in this tournament instead to determine the true people's champ of the season. If they wish, they may also play the RGL Season 12 playoff matches as normal but must forfeit all playoff games to chatCCP.

The teams agree that if chatCCP is expelled after the GGL playoff starts, that the match results played in the GGL will be respected as the official RGL match results if RGL allows. In other words, if chatCCP is expelled after the first round of the GGL playoffs has been completed, the teams agree to report the GGL first round results as the RGL first round results (if RGL allows) and the remaining GGL matches will be cancelled unless the teams agree to continue playing the GGL tournament instead.

The GGL tournament will have a prize pool starting at $200 for the winner (this prize is funded out of pocket by the tournament organizer). Any further donations or funding will be split equally amongst the four participating teams. If this tournament happens, Fireside Casts has agreed to cast the finals, as well as other matches potentially.

The tournament will be ran through Discord and Challonge (for the bracket). Pick/bans will be done in the official Discord channel and will follow the same structure as RGL pick/bans for this season of Advanced.

The Discord will be public and have public channels for announcements of match times so people can follow the tournament.

So far, all teams (2nd through 5th) have tentatively accepted the offer or expressed interest in participating in the alternative tournament if chatCCP is not expelled from RGL.

If one team decides not to participate, but the rest of the teams agree to do so, the GGL playoff will proceed with three teams as a double elimination tournament.

If only two teams agree to participate, then instead, the People's Championship Bowl will be played instead, a single BO3 series to determine the true people's champion for a prize of $100 + donations split amongst the two teams.

An announcement will be made on Sunday that the tournament is cancelled (since RGL playoffs can proceed as normal) if chatCCP is expelled by then. If Sunday comes and chatCCP is not expelled, this tournament will proceed until chatCCP is expelled.

The playoff schedule will either be (identical to the current intended RGL schedule):

MONDAY, JULY 17th
- Upper 1 and Upper 2
TUESDAY, JULY 18th
- Lower 1 and Upper Bracket Finals
WEDNESDAY, JULY 19th
- Lower Bracket Finals
THURSDAY, JULY 20th
- Grand Finals

Or:

TUESDAY, JULY 18th (Reschedulable to the 19th)
- Upper 1 and Upper 2 (Rescheduable up to the 24th)
THURSDAY, JULY 20th
- Lower 1 and Upper Bracket Finals
TUESDAY, JULY 25th (Reschedulable up to the 26th)
- Lower Bracket Finals
THURSDAY, JULY 27th (Reschedulable up to August 2nd)
- Grand Finals

These dates can be played earlier if the teams agree.

So far, I have received firm or tentative agreements from each team I have contacted, please contact me on Discord or reply to this post if you have an update on participation, or if you have concerns/questions.

Contact me on Discord if you wish to donate to the prize pool. If the tournament is cancelled for any reason, you will receive a full refund. You may also send donations to the following PayPal: jonathanallenray1@gmail.com.

Discord contact: _giblert

Current community contribution pledged (not counting RGL contribution): $751
Pledges (if this tournament happens)
Anonymous: $300
rkcbb: $101
Sol: $100
Anonymous: $100
playmo: $25
Jaguar: $25

[b]7/14 Update: [/b]https://www.teamfortress.tv/63358/announcing-the-ggl-advanced-playoffs/?page=3#82
[b]7/16 Update:[/b] This tournament will fortunately no longer be needed, as chatCCP has been expelled. Thank you all for your support and good luck to the Advanced playoffs teams. Donors have all been refunded.
2
#2
33 Frags +

rgl going crazy rn

rgl going crazy rn
3
#3
Fireside Casts
30 Frags +
Fireside Casts has agreed to cast the finals, as well as other matches potentially.

We will cover every match barring potential matches on same date/time (matches scheduled on the same day we will try to accomodate with dual streams)

[quote]
Fireside Casts has agreed to cast the finals, as well as other matches potentially.
[/quote]

We will cover every match barring potential matches on same date/time (matches scheduled on the same day we will try to accomodate with dual streams)
4
#4
-48 Frags +

this is fucking stupid.

this is fucking stupid.
5
#5
23 Frags +

with there barely being any incentive to play rgl in the first place, if the community as a whole decides that they'd rather not play with or against cheaters and people decide to make their own playoffs that are way more likely to be cheater free, with literally the same teams that would have been playing playoffs otherwise, what exactly is the downside here? what is advanced losing by throwing rgl to play this instead? in game medals that they'll get in like a year? do those really matter that much?

there is barely any money to make playing this game and barely any fame either. outside of this little microcosm of a community no one really cares about 6s as much as some people would like to believe. what is the issue with managing our own little community on our own in this fashion? giblert is offering to pay the winners just the same that rgl would, and with the same teams participating this is essentially literally the same thing as rgl, just without the in-game medals or the gold medal png on your rgl page. so who cares? i say that this is the smartest thing that the community could do given the circumstances of this game as it is, and i am fully in favor of it. i'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" team

with there barely being any incentive to play rgl in the first place, if the community as a whole decides that they'd rather not play with or against cheaters and people decide to make their own playoffs that are way more likely to be cheater free, with literally the same teams that would have been playing playoffs otherwise, what exactly is the downside here? what is advanced losing by throwing rgl to play this instead? in game medals that they'll get in like a year? do those really matter that much?

there is barely any money to make playing this game and barely any fame either. outside of this little microcosm of a community no one really cares about 6s as much as some people would like to believe. what is the issue with managing our own little community on our own in this fashion? giblert is offering to pay the winners just the same that rgl would, and with the same teams participating this is essentially literally the same thing as rgl, just without the in-game medals or the gold medal png on your rgl page. so who cares? i say that this is the smartest thing that the community could do given the circumstances of this game as it is, and i am fully in favor of it. i'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" team
6
#6
-28 Frags +
wbacon
To participate, the participants must withdraw from RGL Season 12 playoffs to participate in this tournament instead to determine the true people's champ of the season.
milliethis is fucking stupid.
[quote=wbacon]

To participate, the participants must withdraw from RGL Season 12 playoffs to participate in this tournament instead to determine the true people's champ of the season.[/quote]

[quote=millie]this is fucking stupid.[/quote]
7
#7
38 Frags +
milliethis is fucking stupid.

You are fucking stupid.

[quote=millie]this is fucking stupid.[/quote]

You are fucking stupid.
8
#8
-37 Frags +
tr15t3nmilliethis is fucking stupid.
You are fucking stupid.

banning this dude is one thing, but making a cup to fuck with a div isn't the right answer.

[quote=tr15t3n][quote=millie]this is fucking stupid.[/quote]

You are fucking stupid.[/quote]

banning this dude is one thing, but making a cup to fuck with a div isn't the right answer.
9
#9
-41 Frags +
tr15t3nmilliethis is fucking stupid.
You are fucking stupid.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/998805995167944828/1129125763862515853/Dayo-Sensei_Chibi.jpg

[quote=tr15t3n][quote=millie]this is fucking stupid.[/quote]

You are fucking stupid.[/quote]
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/998805995167944828/1129125763862515853/Dayo-Sensei_Chibi.jpg[/img]
10
#10
48 Frags +

am I allowed to cheat in this one

am I allowed to cheat in this one
11
#11
51 Frags +

this is based as fuck good winds on your journey

this is based as fuck good winds on your journey
12
#12
25 Frags +
Brocktr15t3nmilliethis is fucking stupid.
You are fucking stupid.

banning this dude is one thing, but making a cup to fuck with a div isn't the right answer.

Enlighten me then.

[quote=Brock][quote=tr15t3n][quote=millie]this is fucking stupid.[/quote]

You are fucking stupid.[/quote]

banning this dude is one thing, but making a cup to fuck with a div isn't the right answer.[/quote]

Enlighten me then.
13
#13
RGL.gg
-70 Frags +

I don't have any remarks on how we are going to be handling Advanced Playoffs for 6s Season 12 just yet. But I do have some words I would hope some of you would take time to read in the meantime.
_ _
_ _

durzoi'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" team

I wasn't an Admin for RGL until Season 6 of 6s...I wanted it mentioned in regards to your last points here that both teams in Season 5 of AM Grand Finals that Season had cheaters on them. But, iirc, players were only suspect of kiwi and by extension the rest of their AM team.
That Season's Grand Finals match: Puggas in Paris vs. Gukurahundi
A lovely group of players, real standup citizens and pillars of this community. /s

Something that I've since understood many players knowing well of, and saying absolutely nothing about it to any Admin, is the latter's team name. It has since been changed due to the original name being that of a racial genocide in Africa that apparently no one, besides those players, were aware of for multiple seasons afterwards?
_ _

Yall say you feel so powerless to do anything to "make RGL better", yet are so willing to talk about just throwing years of well intended effort away while not making an actual ACTIVE attempt at being a part in making change for the better. Shouting nays from the sidelines while choosing to remain deaf to legitimate limitations is disingenuous. Why would anyone want to have a genuine discussion in that environment?

I encourage anyone reading this to apply to be a part of the format Staff teams here. After 2+ years now, I've found it to be extremely hard work to be doing for free. But it is worth it as someone has to give a damn enough to put themselves in the positions of being "the bad guy" and making any effort to keep the wheel turning for our silly, little unique game. We all care too much about Comp TF2. Come share that caring with the rest of us. :)
Pretty much, we all gotta stop demanding to have our cake while simultaneously swallowing it whole.
_ _

A few players acting in total bad faith should not and does not detract from the individual efforts of those that make Comp TF2 a reality for everyone here in the first place. Nor does it invalidate or make worthless any attempts to do the right thing in the right ways on the administration side of it, regardless of how seemingly 'unseen' those efforts may be.

Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues even worse lol.

Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change. The effort required to have what we have even now is immense and yall would rather stay blind to it than put in any actual meaningful work outside of musing in Discord and shitposting on forums.
Naivety because of lack of understanding is one thing. Naivety for the sake of maintaining one's passivity while loudly and publicly throwing one's hands into the air only further enables bad faith actors and throws preponderance to the wind. Which, again, ironically, just worsens real issues and further clouds the legitimacy of anyone's actual sincere combined efforts.
_ _

We can all do better. I think that much can be assumed; that we all know that. That is the ever-present goal that is always being clawed towards. I'd ask you to come and be an active part of it rather than choosing to give up on it completely. Because good luck tbqh! Every TF2 League has the same issues. The next versions of UGC/ESEA/CEVO/RGL/FACEIT/ETF2L/ozFORTRESS/etc. will see these and those same concerns. Instead of rehashing another comp league, "doing it right 'your way'", come put in the effort where it can actually have immediate impact for the better. We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.

Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao

[h]I don't have any remarks on how we are going to be handling Advanced Playoffs for 6s Season 12 just yet. But I do have some words I would hope some of you would take time to read in the meantime.[/h]
_ _
_ _

[quote=durzo]i'd go as far as to say i wish it happened many seasons ago, given things like the "gukurahundi" team[/quote]
I wasn't an Admin for RGL until Season 6 of 6s...I wanted it mentioned in regards to your last points here that [i]both[/i] teams in Season 5 of AM Grand Finals that Season had cheaters on them. But, iirc, players were only suspect of kiwi and by extension the rest of their AM team.
That Season's Grand Finals match: [b][url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Match.aspx?m=12949&r=40]Puggas in Paris vs. Gukurahundi[/url][/b]
A lovely group of players, real standup citizens and pillars of this community. /s

Something that I've since understood many players knowing well of, and saying absolutely nothing about it to any Admin, is the latter's team name. It has since been changed due to the original name being that of a racial genocide in Africa that apparently no one, besides those players, were aware of for multiple seasons afterwards?
_ _

Yall say you feel so powerless to do anything to "make RGL better", yet are so willing to talk about just throwing years of well intended effort away while not making an [i]actual[/i] [b][i]ACTIVE[/i][/b] attempt at being a part in making change for the better. Shouting nays from the sidelines while choosing to remain deaf to legitimate limitations is disingenuous. Why would anyone want to have a genuine discussion in that environment?

I encourage anyone reading this to apply to be a part of the format Staff teams [url=https://rgl.gg/Players/Reporting/StaffApplication.aspx?r=40]here[/url]. After 2+ years now, I've found it to be extremely hard work to be doing for free. But it is worth it as [i]someone[/i] has to give a damn enough to put themselves in the positions of being "the bad guy" and making any effort to keep the wheel turning for our silly, little unique game. We all care too much about Comp TF2. Come share that caring with the rest of us. :)
Pretty much, we all gotta stop demanding to have our cake while simultaneously swallowing it whole.
_ _

A few players acting in total bad faith should not and [i]does not[/i] detract from the individual efforts of those that make Comp TF2 a reality [i][b]for everyone here[/b][/i] in the first place. Nor does it invalidate or make worthless any attempts to do the right thing in the right ways on the administration side of it, regardless of how seemingly 'unseen' those efforts may be.

[b][u]Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues [i]even worse[/i] lol. [/u][/b]

Sometimes you all would rather just roll over and give up than actually step up and put on your own Admin shoes and and get a taste of your own medicine for a change. The effort required to have what we have even now is immense and yall would rather stay blind to it than put in any actual meaningful work outside of musing in Discord and shitposting on forums.
Naivety because of lack of understanding is one thing. Naivety for the sake of maintaining one's passivity while loudly and publicly throwing one's hands into the air only further enables bad faith actors and throws preponderance to the wind. Which, again, ironically, just worsens real issues and further clouds the legitimacy of anyone's actual sincere combined efforts.
_ _

We can all do better. I think that much can be assumed; that we all know that. That is the ever-present goal that is [i]always[/i] being clawed towards. I'd ask you to come and be an active part of it rather than choosing to give up on it completely. Because good luck tbqh! Every TF2 League has the same issues. The next versions of UGC/ESEA/CEVO/RGL/FACEIT/ETF2L/ozFORTRESS/etc. will see these and those same concerns. Instead of rehashing another comp league, "doing it right 'your way'", come put in the effort where it can actually have immediate impact for the better. We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.

Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao
14
#14
-29 Frags +

yall think you are protagonists from real steel

yall think you are protagonists from[url=https://youtu.be/sqI7Z3XiypU] real steel [/url]
15
#15
54 Frags +
camp3r101Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues even worse lol.

A usual rgl circlejerk strategy is to make vague insinuations that bad things will happen if they don't get their way. It's disingenuous and cringe as fuck, stop please.

[quote=camp3r101]
[b][u]Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own is one of the primary factors driving legitimate organizers from our scene in the first place. Which ironically is its own driving force making systemic issues [i]even worse[/i] lol. [/u][/b]

[/quote]
A usual rgl circlejerk strategy is to make vague insinuations that bad things will happen if they don't get their way. It's disingenuous and cringe as fuck, stop please.
16
#16
50 Frags +

i have literally 0 stakes in this but i don't think it's very good optics to call everyone ungrateful and entitled in a huge passive aggressive wall of text just because they want to compete and don't want to play against a team boosted by cheaters lol

i have literally 0 stakes in this but i don't think it's very good optics to call everyone ungrateful and entitled in a huge passive aggressive wall of text just because they want to compete and don't want to play against a team boosted by cheaters lol
17
#17
59 Frags +

im sorry that a team 6 seasons ago had a bad name but could u ban the cheater whos playing now

im sorry that a team 6 seasons ago had a bad name but could u ban the cheater whos playing now
18
#18
50 Frags +
camp3r101
Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao

im sorry but what even was the point of this post? you complain about people being disingenuous in that they wont apply for rgl staff to actually make change, but in this instance for the thread's creation it would only be relevant if they were joining AC team to swing the hammer down on elijah, and surely the bar for getting on the AC team is far higher than being a division moderator. if your inspiration for your post was simply durzo mentioning that the gukurahundi team shouldve been struck down years ago, then this nerd essay for a reply is simply overkill and comes across as hypocritical as it appears you are riding your high horse about being RGL staff while calling out others who dont want to do your job, while simultaneously derailing the intent of the thread.

camp3r101 We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.

im not sure if you misread something but Giblert Gaming League is not a serious new league. its just a meme name for giblert's tournament.

anyways glory to GGL

[quote=camp3r101]

Edit: There is ZERO way you 4 downfraggers read all of this in 2 minutes lmao[/quote]
im sorry but what even was the point of this post? you complain about people being disingenuous in that they wont apply for rgl staff to actually make change, but in this instance for the thread's creation it would only be relevant if they were joining AC team to swing the hammer down on elijah, and surely the bar for getting on the AC team is far higher than being a division moderator. if your inspiration for your post was simply durzo mentioning that the gukurahundi team shouldve been struck down years ago, then this nerd essay for a reply is simply overkill and comes across as hypocritical as it appears you are riding [i]your[/i] high horse about being RGL staff while calling out others who dont want to do your job, while simultaneously derailing the intent of the thread.

[quote=camp3r101] We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.[/quote]
im not sure if you misread something but Giblert Gaming League is not a serious new league. its just a meme name for giblert's tournament.

anyways glory to GGL
19
#19
20 Frags +

RGL crying right now as everyone already paid all their league fees and played out most of the season.

RGL crying right now as everyone already paid all their league fees and played out most of the season.
20
#20
22 Frags +
camp3r101We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.

From my reading, this is not a league and doesn't exist to compete with RGL. This only exists because RGL is not providing the teams without cheaters on them with a fair chance to compete in playoffs, and these teams deserve a chance to a genuine playoffs run.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're just asking these teams to shut up and lose to the cheaters in playoffs, and

camp3r101Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own

is a BS way to describe not wanting to play against cheaters, do something tangible or shut up. I'm sure these teams would rather not go through the trouble to play a whole separate playoffs bracket, but you act like RGL has offered them anything besides a big middle finger.

[quote=camp3r101]We do not need another dead-on-arrival Team Fortress 2 Competitive League.[/quote]
From my reading, this is not a league and doesn't exist to compete with RGL. This only exists because RGL is not providing the teams without cheaters on them with a fair chance to compete in playoffs, and these teams deserve a chance to a genuine playoffs run.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like you're just asking these teams to shut up and lose to the cheaters in playoffs, and
[quote=camp3r101]Discounting any alternative perspective or effort that is not aligned with your own[/quote] is a BS way to describe not wanting to play against cheaters, do something tangible or shut up. I'm sure these teams would rather not go through the trouble to play a whole separate playoffs bracket, but you act like RGL has offered them anything besides a big middle finger.
21
#21
RGL.gg
-45 Frags +

The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
Applying for RGL Staff now won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
Being an active, contributing part of the actual process of it all is what should be the focus of those that apparently care the most. Rather than taking in all there is to gain for your own personal benefit and enjoyment and then naysaying the rest of it as is apparently always the tradition in this community.

Despite what anyone here chooses to believe, I have zero reason to grandstand for my own sake. I'm writing out what has been written on the wall for years now. Yall just refuse to come to terms that the state of comp TF2 is quite literally because of the action (READ: inaction) of those who are most vocally detracting from it. Those being in large parts the players here, on TFTV, who play in higher divisions/skill levels. Yall know so much about this game and the ways you think it should/shouldn't be played. Put yourselves in a position where you can do more than puff hot air about it. Actually give the damn for once and volunteer for the work that is needed to get to where we all wish we already were.

But I again made the mistake of coming to TFTV, attempting to give any sort of perspective on the literal ONE reason why it is that any sort of meaningful, long term change, that it is apparently what the most vocal want, doesn't happen at the speeds they want.

Call it a nerd essay. Call it a pointless wall of text.
Yall just live to complain and complain.

The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
Applying for RGL Staff [i]now[/i] won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
Being an active, contributing part of the actual process of it all is what should be the focus of those that apparently care the most. Rather than taking in all there is to gain for your own personal benefit and enjoyment and then naysaying the rest of it as is apparently [i]always[/i] the tradition in this community.

Despite what anyone here chooses to believe, I have zero reason to grandstand for my own sake. I'm writing out what has been written on the wall for years now. Yall just refuse to come to terms that the state of comp TF2 is quite literally because of the action (READ: inaction) of those who are most vocally detracting from it. Those being in large parts the players here, on TFTV, who play in higher divisions/skill levels. Yall know so much about this game and the ways you think it should/shouldn't be played. Put yourselves in a position where you can do more than puff hot air about it. Actually give the damn for once and volunteer for the work that is needed to get to where we all wish we already were.

But I again made the mistake of coming to TFTV, attempting to give any sort of perspective on the literal ONE reason why it is that any sort of meaningful, long term change, that it is apparently what the most vocal want, doesn't happen at the speeds they want.

Call it a nerd essay. Call it a pointless wall of text.
Yall just live to complain and complain.
22
#22
30 Frags +
camp3r101 essay

You said a whole lot of nothing about people being upset at how things are. I understand that being staff for RGL, as well as organizing everything, takes effort a lot of effort and time. I think most people understand that too.

No one wants to play a league that has cheaters in it. It shouldn't be that hard for any admin to say something at all about what is going to be done. We have no idea if elijah is being investigated at all. The only statements we have are things like what you posted, which is insulting to those who actually care about playing this game fairly. Wasn't RGL supposed to be more transparent? Please at least let us know that something is happening behind the scenes. There should be at least a statement regarding if there is an investigation or not.

Obviously people don't want to play a cheater. They don't want to play against them so much that a tourny like this is happening. The only "official" statement made is that you aren't going to tell us what is going to happen for playoffs, which doesn't help. I really don't think your post was the attitude you should have toward this situation, because all your post does is make everyone believe that admins don't know what they are talking about.

[quote=camp3r101] essay [/quote]
You said a whole lot of nothing about people being upset at how things are. I understand that being staff for RGL, as well as organizing everything, takes effort a lot of effort and time. I think most people understand that too.

No one wants to play a league that has cheaters in it. It shouldn't be that hard for any admin to say something at all about what is going to be done. We have no idea if elijah is being investigated at all. The only statements we have are things like what you posted, which is insulting to those who actually care about playing this game fairly. Wasn't RGL supposed to be more transparent? Please at least let us know that something is happening behind the scenes. There should be at least a statement regarding if there is an investigation or not.

Obviously people don't want to play a cheater. They don't want to play against them so much that a tourny like this is happening. The only "official" statement made is that you aren't going to tell us what is going to happen for playoffs, which doesn't help. I really don't think your post was the attitude you should have toward this situation, because all your post does is make everyone believe that admins don't know what they are talking about.
23
#23
34 Frags +

I very much understand the frustration that teams are having when it comes to playing against someone they believe to be cheating. What I am offering is the best compromise I have for the time being, that is the delaying of advanced playoffs for the next week or two to give AC more time to make a decision. This is not an ideal situation, and I'm more frustrated that we couldn't get something better to work, but on such short notice this is what I have.

For some context, some (lightly modified) messages I sent to chell within the last hour:

"I have literally 0 control over when AC gets through their cases, if people have an issue with an alleged cheater playing there is no way for me individually to speed up the process. The barrier that we are faced with is that AC needs absolute refutable evidence that he is cheating, they have an extensive process for this and it is not simply limited to staring at a demo and measuring reaction time (not that this is an invalid way of checking someone is cheating, just saying it can be somewhat superficial)."

EDIT: That being said, I have no clue what their is involved in their process, I am no expert in the slightest, people should still submit demo ticks when they find stuff suspicious.

"Also being said, if teams decide to play Gilbert’s format, that’s fine and I understand the precedent, but at this time they will not be considered official matches. Refusal to play playoffs after a decision is made will likely result in forfeit penalties and loss of prize winnings."

I very much understand the frustration that teams are having when it comes to playing against someone they believe to be cheating. What I am offering is the best compromise I have for the time being, that is the delaying of advanced playoffs for the next week or two to give AC more time to make a decision. This is not an ideal situation, and I'm more frustrated that we couldn't get something better to work, but on such short notice this is what I have.

For some context, some (lightly modified) messages I sent to chell within the last hour:

"I have literally 0 control over when AC gets through their cases, if people have an issue with an alleged cheater playing there is no way for me individually to speed up the process. The barrier that we are faced with is that AC needs absolute refutable evidence that he is cheating, they have an extensive process for this and it is not simply limited to staring at a demo and measuring reaction time (not that this is an invalid way of checking someone is cheating, just saying it can be somewhat superficial)."

EDIT: That being said, I have no clue what their is involved in their process, I am no expert in the slightest, people should still submit demo ticks when they find stuff suspicious.

"Also being said, if teams decide to play Gilbert’s format, that’s fine and I understand the precedent, but at this time they will not be considered official matches. Refusal to play playoffs after a decision is made will likely result in forfeit penalties and loss of prize winnings."
24
#24
9 Frags +

An opinion I've heard a lot is that cheater bans should be permanent: There was even a dedicated thread made on this topic. Since (on the surface at least) this seems to be a popular opinion, this question should perhaps be brought up in this season's postseason survey. I think a portion of people aren't too upset about the AC team's decision on this particular case taking time, but are more upset about the decision to unban cheaters in the first place.

An opinion I've heard a lot is that cheater bans should be permanent: There was even a [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/63087/cheater-bans-should-be-permanent]dedicated thread[/url] made on this topic. Since (on the surface at least) this seems to be a popular opinion, this question should perhaps be brought up in this season's postseason survey. I think a portion of people aren't too upset about the AC team's decision on this particular case taking time, but are more upset about the decision to unban cheaters in the first place.
25
#25
16 Frags +
camp3r101 words

You are right about people complaining on the sidelines doing nothing isn't helping, but wasn't rgl literally saying recently tftv threads and stuff help to understand how players are feeling?

This pseudo league/cup/garbage thing exists because players were extremely frustrated that after the 3rd thread about Elijah this season, rgl has said nothing other than we won't be changing the cheating punishment.

If we can't talk about it without you getting upset, and can't try to solve the issue you refuse to acknowledge without you getting upset, what do you propose? Was I supposed to join the rgl admin team 6 months ago to prepare for this event? I would've never imagined things get escalated as far as they have been, this entire concept exists as an "if rgl does literally nothing we'll do this cuz who cares".

I understand rgl has a lot of passion to comp tf2. I think rgl has made a lot of improvement to comp tf2 from my time in the scene, and this doesn't exist to be a giant fuck you to rgl but rather as a way of voicing the degree of frustration the players are feeling from this szn. Getting mad cuz players are frustrated will accomplish nothing. The playoffs teams may not have people in the rgl staff, but having literally no communication over an issue that has existed for months, and then making a passive-aggressive shitpost because we're actually trying to solve the issue is worthless to solving anything.

[quote=camp3r101] words [/quote]

You are right about people complaining on the sidelines doing nothing isn't helping, but wasn't rgl literally saying recently tftv threads and stuff help to understand how players are feeling?

This pseudo league/cup/garbage thing exists because players were extremely frustrated that after the 3rd thread about Elijah this season, rgl has said nothing other than we won't be changing the cheating punishment.

If we can't talk about it without you getting upset, and can't try to solve the issue you refuse to acknowledge without you getting upset, what do you propose? Was I supposed to join the rgl admin team 6 months ago to prepare for this event? I would've never imagined things get escalated as far as they have been, this entire concept exists as an "if rgl does literally nothing we'll do this cuz who cares".

I understand rgl has a lot of passion to comp tf2. I think rgl has made a lot of improvement to comp tf2 from my time in the scene, and this doesn't exist to be a giant fuck you to rgl but rather as a way of voicing the degree of frustration the players are feeling from this szn. Getting mad cuz players are frustrated will accomplish nothing. The playoffs teams may not have people in the rgl staff, but having literally no communication over an issue that has existed for months, and then making a passive-aggressive shitpost because we're actually trying to solve the issue is worthless to solving anything.
26
#26
RGL.gg
-12 Frags +
hellstarcamp3r101 essay You said a whole lot of nothing about people being upset at how things are.

You're right. I did not focus directly on this one particular topic of concern in my posts.
In my mind, it goes entirely without saying how awful and shitty it is to be forced to play against any player that the majority has it in mind is a cheater (again).
Just as much as the rest of you, I've been in that situation too and commiserate with everyone on why it is so upsetting.

hannahAn opinion I've heard a lot is that cheater bans should be permanent: There was even a dedicated thread made on this topic. Since (on the surface at least) this seems to be a popular opinion, this question should perhaps be brought up in this season's postseason survey. I think a portion of people aren't too upset about the AC team's decision on this particular case taking time, but are more upset about the decision to unban cheaters in the first place.

That can absolutely be a topic on the post-season survey, yes. I will work to include it.
I'll edit this to say that I'm not an AC Admin in any respect. And that no AC decisions are polled for or surveyed.

[quote=hellstar][quote=camp3r101] essay [/quote]
You said a whole lot of nothing about people being upset at how things are.[/quote]
You're right. I did not focus directly on this one particular topic of concern in my posts.
In my mind, it goes entirely without saying how awful and shitty it is to be forced to play against any player that the majority has it in mind is a cheater (again).
Just as much as the rest of you, I've been in that situation too and commiserate with everyone on why it is so upsetting.

[quote=hannah]An opinion I've heard a lot is that cheater bans should be permanent: There was even a [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/63087/cheater-bans-should-be-permanent]dedicated thread[/url] made on this topic. Since (on the surface at least) this seems to be a popular opinion, this question should perhaps be brought up in this season's postseason survey. I think a portion of people aren't too upset about the AC team's decision on this particular case taking time, but are more upset about the decision to unban cheaters in the first place.[/quote]
[s]That can absolutely be a topic on the post-season survey, yes. I will work to include it.[/s]
I'll edit this to say that I'm not an AC Admin in any respect. And that no AC decisions are polled for or surveyed.
27
#27
34 Frags +
camp3r101Yall just live to complain and complain.

You are so bad at PR that I worry you might bring about the end of RGL without our help.

[quote=camp3r101]Yall just live to complain and complain.[/quote]
You are so bad at PR that I worry you might bring about the end of RGL without our help.
28
#28
30 Frags +
Scream"Refusal to play playoffs after a decision is made will likely result in forfeit penalties and loss of prize winnings."

https://media.tenor.com/iCkxi4WfbVEAAAAC/dark-knight-joker.gif

(I do like the decision to delay. EDIT: Based Arcadia in post #36)

[quote=Scream]"Refusal to play playoffs after a decision is made will likely result in forfeit penalties and loss of prize winnings."[/quote]
[img]https://media.tenor.com/iCkxi4WfbVEAAAAC/dark-knight-joker.gif[/img]
(I do like the decision to delay. EDIT: Based Arcadia in post #36)
29
#29
9 Frags +
ScreamThe barrier that we are faced with is that AC needs absolute refutable evidence that he is cheating [...]"

I agree with this for first time offenders (I assume this is meant to be irrefutable) but if you have a cheating ban already (and one that has "absolute irrefutable evidence") IMO the standard doesn't need to be as high the second time around. By cheating once you have already broken trust, there's no reason that this standard should apply to you again.

I can understand the argument that AC admins are human and to err is human, so I'm not saying the standard should be lowered drastically or anything. But I don't think it has to be quite as high.

camp3r101The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.

I get the sentiment but I think this viewpoint is simply a bit reductionist. If an issue exists and it is not immediately clear that RGL is aware, then complaining has merit. How else is RGL supposed to get feedback or know what questions they should even put on their end of season surveys? Not all complaints are constructive I'm aware, and some people certainly complain just to complain and will never be happy. But, like it or not, a lot of good things have been done simply because of the mix of complaints and tftv shitposts.

Additionally, some people are simply not made for leadership positions. I don't think having a complaint or a desire for change is enough to be in these positions; certainly a prerequisite (hopefully), but not enough. Some people simply cannot be objective, are not decisive, or whatever it may be. Several previous RGL admins that have since been removed have displayed these qualities despite having the passion for helping the league and the game. There is also of course the fact that, like you said, this is a volunteer niche game. The playerbase is probably skewing older as the years go by and real life simply gets in the way. Writing nerd essays on tftv takes like 20 minutes of my time that I can do wherever; any real work beyond that is simply not an investment a lot of people can make.

[quote=Scream]
The barrier that we are faced with is that AC needs absolute refutable evidence that he is cheating [...]" [/quote]

I agree with this for first time offenders (I assume this is meant to be irrefutable) but if you have a cheating ban already (and one that has "absolute irrefutable evidence") IMO the standard doesn't need to be as high the second time around. By cheating once you have already broken trust, there's no reason that this standard should apply to you again.

I can understand the argument that AC admins are human and to err is human, so I'm not saying the standard should be lowered drastically or anything. But I don't think it has to be [i]quite[/i] as high.

[quote=camp3r101]The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
[/quote]

I get the sentiment but I think this viewpoint is simply a bit reductionist. If an issue exists and it is not immediately clear that RGL is aware, then complaining has merit. How else is RGL supposed to get feedback or know what questions they should even put on their end of season surveys? Not all complaints are constructive I'm aware, and some people certainly complain just to complain and will never be happy. But, like it or not, a lot of good things have been done simply because of the mix of complaints and tftv shitposts.

Additionally, some people are simply not made for leadership positions. I don't think having a complaint or a desire for change is enough to be in these positions; certainly a prerequisite (hopefully), but not enough. Some people simply cannot be objective, are not decisive, or whatever it may be. Several previous RGL admins that have since been removed have displayed these qualities despite having the passion for helping the league and the game. There is also of course the fact that, like you said, this is a volunteer niche game. The playerbase is probably skewing older as the years go by and real life simply gets in the way. Writing nerd essays on tftv takes like 20 minutes of my time that I can do wherever; any real work beyond that is simply not an investment a lot of people can make.
30
#30
17 Frags +
camp3r101The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
Applying for RGL Staff now won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
.

RGL is a paid league and players powers are in voicing their opinion and here organising against a league who have not communicated or taken action. This whole situation was entirely preventable by communicating with people who have paid league fees to be there and instead you're being childish and tarnishing RGL's brand.

[quote=camp3r101]The whole point I'd like to get across is players would rather passively complain LOUDLY about these very serious issues rather than put in concerted efforts to help the scene avoid them overall to begin with.
Applying for RGL Staff [i]now[/i] won't help this particular situation. No shit, Sherlock.
.[/quote]
RGL is a paid league and players powers are in voicing their opinion and here organising against a league who have not communicated or taken action. This whole situation was entirely preventable by communicating with people who have paid league fees to be there and instead you're being childish and tarnishing RGL's brand.
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