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ETF2L bans the Loch-n-Load in 6s
1
#1
0 Frags +

I did not find a thread talking about this news

etf2lUpsides:

+20% damages to buildings (which means destroying level 3 sentries in 2 pipes)
+25% grenade travel speed (which means building will be destroyed before you even start reacting unless you are already hitting your buildings)
Grenades do not tumble when fired (which means they go straight lines)

The result is faster grenade going straight lines and farther and doing more damages to the buildings.

Downsides:

-1 ammo clip
No roller

In a competitive environment rollers are barely used on purpose. They sometimes serve the purpose of small radius damages for what you missed as direct hits. In the very few situation you wish to spam a cornered area stickies can replace the grenades.

Comparing the upsides with the downsides we feel the Loch-n-Load is an upgrade from the Iron Bomber/Grenade Launcher.

Arguably some of you may disagree or dislike our decision but we believe it’s the right one. We will review the ban at the end of the Season to see how people felt about it.

I find it interesting that the arguments used for the ban are related to destroying buildings, people must like turtling behind the sentry until the round timer expires.

Thoughts?

I did not find a thread talking about this [url=https://etf2l.org/2023/06/30/6v6-summer-2023-provisional-tiers-map-pool-whitelist-updates/]news[/url]

[quote=etf2l]
Upsides:

+20% damages to buildings (which means destroying level 3 sentries in 2 pipes)
+25% grenade travel speed (which means building will be destroyed before you even start reacting unless you are already hitting your buildings)
Grenades do not tumble when fired (which means they go straight lines)

The result is faster grenade going straight lines and farther and doing more damages to the buildings.

Downsides:

-1 ammo clip
No roller

In a competitive environment rollers are barely used on purpose. They sometimes serve the purpose of small radius damages for what you missed as direct hits. In the very few situation you wish to spam a cornered area stickies can replace the grenades.

Comparing the upsides with the downsides we feel the Loch-n-Load is an upgrade from the Iron Bomber/Grenade Launcher.

Arguably some of you may disagree or dislike our decision but we believe it’s the right one. We will review the ban at the end of the Season to see how people felt about it.[/quote]

I find it interesting that the arguments used for the ban are related to destroying buildings, people must like turtling behind the sentry until the round timer expires.

Thoughts?
2
#2
5 Frags +

Kounna crying rn.

Kounna crying rn.
3
#3
-13 Frags +

euros hate fun part 649

euros hate fun part 649
4
#4
45 Frags +
etf2lComparing the upsides with the downsides we feel the Loch-n-Load is an upgrade from the Iron Bomber/Grenade Launcher.

I never got the logic of banning something just because its an upgrade to stock version/slot.

We don't do this for:
gunboats
any of the melee weapons
crossbow

[quote=etf2l]Comparing the upsides with the downsides we feel the Loch-n-Load is an upgrade from the Iron Bomber/Grenade Launcher.[/quote]

I never got the logic of banning something just because its an upgrade to stock version/slot.

We don't do this for:
gunboats
any of the melee weapons
crossbow
5
#5
50 Frags +

Euro admins mad they get 2piped across the map but are too embarrassed to say that so the excuse they use to ban the loch is that its too easy to spam guns with it (???)

Euro admins mad they get 2piped across the map but are too embarrassed to say that so the excuse they use to ban the loch is that its too easy to spam guns with it (???)
6
#6
24 Frags +

1984 league

1984 league
7
#7
23 Frags +
etf2l
The result is faster grenade going straight lines and farther and doing more damages to the buildings.

being able to kill guns faster is a good thing because it makes stalemating on last less viable and speeds up the game for last pressures, it's better to make holding last harder than to have stalemates be more effective.

i liked the thing that was developing with demos where depending on map and what point they're on they'd switch between Iron bomber, loch n load and loose cannon.

loch n load definitely wasn't op and losing rollers is a big deal, especially iron bomber rollers that you can still use to jump out of situations and zone people you miss. don't like this ban at all

[quote=etf2l]

The result is faster grenade going straight lines and farther and doing more damages to the buildings.

[/quote]

being able to kill guns faster is a good thing because it makes stalemating on last less viable and speeds up the game for last pressures, it's better to make holding last harder than to have stalemates be more effective.

i liked the thing that was developing with demos where depending on map and what point they're on they'd switch between Iron bomber, loch n load and loose cannon.

loch n load definitely wasn't op and losing rollers is a big deal, especially iron bomber rollers that you can still use to jump out of situations and zone people you miss. don't like this ban at all
8
#8
17 Frags +

The decision-making when it comes to balancing is always so odd in ETF2L. Banning the LnL with the biggest factor being "it does more building damage" is so out of touch with the meta of the game, its apparent that whoever made this decision has never played against a team that is really good at the turtle sunshine last hold (or any turtle hold for that matter)
The weapon excels at hitting easier pipes in chokepoints and long range, if theres a problem with it its definitely not the building damage. On top of that another factor that lead to the ban is

In a competitive environment rollers are barely used on purpose

If this was true, we would see more demomen running the stock launcher. The truth is, that even if it is not the old mega OP version, the iron bomber is still an upgrade to the stock launcher mostly because of the rollers. Of course nobody goes out of their way to use rollers as their main way to damage someone, but it's still nicer to have the rollers in the vicinity of your enemy if you miss. The iron bomber does everything the stock launcher does, but better. You get upgraded rollers for like -10% splash radius, it's a straight up better version. So why is the weapon that works completely different and can offer a different playstyle banned instead of the actual upgrade?

More importantly, why is stuff like this not fixed with a plugin or whatever? ETF2L already dipped their toes into a pro mode lite by buffing gunboats with a plugin, so how come we just dont fix unlocks that offer different mechanics the same way? For example, make LnL pipes do 90 damage instead or something.

The decision-making when it comes to balancing is always so odd in ETF2L. Banning the LnL with the biggest factor being "it does more building damage" is so out of touch with the meta of the game, its apparent that whoever made this decision has never played against a team that is really good at the turtle sunshine last hold (or any turtle hold for that matter)
The weapon excels at hitting easier pipes in chokepoints and long range, if theres a problem with it its definitely not the building damage. On top of that another factor that lead to the ban is
[quote]In a competitive environment rollers are barely used on purpose[/quote]
If this was true, we would see more demomen running the stock launcher. The truth is, that even if it is not the old mega OP version, the iron bomber is still an upgrade to the stock launcher mostly because of the rollers. Of course nobody goes out of their way to use rollers as their main way to damage someone, but it's still nicer to have the rollers in the vicinity of your enemy if you miss. The iron bomber does everything the stock launcher does, but better. You get upgraded rollers for like -10% splash radius, it's a straight up better version. So why is the weapon that works completely different and can offer a different playstyle banned instead of the actual upgrade?

More importantly, why is stuff like this not fixed with a plugin or whatever? ETF2L already dipped their toes into a pro mode lite by buffing gunboats with a plugin, so how come we just dont fix unlocks that offer different mechanics the same way? For example, make LnL pipes do 90 damage instead or something.
9
#9
-5 Frags +

you already didn't have many people "abusing" the LnL

this is like banning the beggars because it has niches where it does better than stock

you already didn't have many people "abusing" the LnL

this is like banning the beggars because it has niches where it does better than stock
10
#10
Twitch Prime
-20 Frags +

Good

Good
11
#11
34 Frags +

i can understand not wanting to play with the loch or thinking it's dumb (but not because it's easier to kill buildings lmfao), however calling it a straight upgrade is complete cope and they're seriously underselling rollers, calling them "barely used on purpose" as though their value could only come from intentionally missing pipes to get rollers

i can understand not wanting to play with the loch or thinking it's dumb (but not because it's easier to kill buildings lmfao), however calling it a straight upgrade is complete cope and they're seriously underselling rollers, calling them "barely used on purpose" as though their value could only come from intentionally missing pipes to get rollers
12
#12
47 Frags +

today they fuck me
tomorrow they fuck you

today they fuck me
tomorrow they fuck you
13
#13
-1 Frags +

good job etf2l can we now focus on getting the banners banned

good job etf2l can we now focus on getting the banners banned
14
#14
-1 Frags +

u guys should play vanilla + kritz imo could be cool :)

u guys should play vanilla + kritz imo could be cool :)
15
#15
-2 Frags +

goofy

goofy
16
#16
28 Frags +

Healthy change imo regardless of how much I enjoyed using it. Giving demo long range damage output along with random kills is probably not a good thing. People also don't talk about how much better it was at close range engagements because of how much faster the projectile is and how you don't really have to lead the shots like you do with pipes you can just aim them like hitscan.

That being said the reasoning given behind the ban was so out of touch lol.

Healthy change imo regardless of how much I enjoyed using it. Giving demo long range damage output along with random kills is probably not a good thing. People also don't talk about how much better it was at close range engagements because of how much faster the projectile is and how you don't really have to lead the shots like you do with pipes you can just aim them like hitscan.

That being said the reasoning given behind the ban was so out of touch lol.
17
#17
6 Frags +

Engineer main admins

Engineer main admins
18
#18
-5 Frags +

unban it.

unban it.
19
#19
32 Frags +

Official ban reason (especially the initial one that mentioned "no downsides") does feel out of touch. The main upside is 25% faster pipes, and an argument can be made that the downsides don't compensate enough for it. Hitting a direct pipe on someone is a big deal and often decides the outcome of a fight or a hold. LnL allows demo to do the same but "cheaper", without exposing himself to danger as much. More people have become better with it and started running it full-time at high level, which makes it more apparent that the weapon is an upgrade rather than a sidegrade.

Iron bomber is also an upgrade in almost every scenario, but the difference is that it doesn't really push the demo's upper limit as a class like LnL does. I've never seen anyone say that they'd rather fight a demo with randomly tumbling pipes than IB, because people on both sides prefer a healthier / more consistent gameplay experience with less RNG.

When it comes to stuff like crossbow, gunboats and other straight upgrades, they should evaluated with regards to overall class balance. Before the auto-reloading crossbow, medic was considered to be the most boring and mechanically shallow class, and with it the class feels "in line" with the rest. People had been saying that soldier was the weakest class and scout is the strongest for some time in the past, but the gunboats plugin (a straight buff to soldier) seemed to fix this discrepancy.

I'd say people are more upset about the reasoning rather than the ban itself, and I think it's fair because stuff like that doesn't inspire much confidence in future decision-making process.

Official ban reason (especially the initial one that mentioned "no downsides") does feel out of touch. The main upside is 25% faster pipes, and an argument can be made that the downsides don't compensate enough for it. Hitting a direct pipe on someone is a big deal and often decides the outcome of a fight or a hold. LnL allows demo to do the same but "cheaper", without exposing himself to danger as much. More people have become better with it and started running it full-time at high level, which makes it more apparent that the weapon is an upgrade rather than a sidegrade.

Iron bomber is also an upgrade in almost every scenario, but the difference is that it doesn't really push the demo's upper limit as a class like LnL does. I've never seen anyone say that they'd rather fight a demo with randomly tumbling pipes than IB, because people on both sides prefer a healthier / more consistent gameplay experience with less RNG.

When it comes to stuff like crossbow, gunboats and other straight upgrades, they should evaluated with regards to overall class balance. Before the auto-reloading crossbow, medic was considered to be the most boring and mechanically shallow class, and with it the class feels "in line" with the rest. People had been saying that soldier was the weakest class and scout is the strongest for some time in the past, but the gunboats plugin (a straight buff to soldier) seemed to fix this discrepancy.

I'd say people are more upset about the reasoning rather than the ban itself, and I think it's fair because stuff like that doesn't inspire much confidence in future decision-making process.
20
#20
1 Frags +
dqz

Very well put

[quote=dqz][/quote]
Very well put
21
#21
11 Frags +

ban wrap assassin, dhit, beggars, manntreads, tomislav and loose cannon next, cheers! idc if the reasons on the forum are crap if these wepoinz are gone

ban wrap assassin, dhit, beggars, manntreads, tomislav and loose cannon next, cheers! idc if the reasons on the forum are crap if these wepoinz are gone
22
#22
0 Frags +
TurboTabsetf2lComparing the upsides with the downsides we feel the Loch-n-Load is an upgrade from the Iron Bomber/Grenade Launcher.
I never got the logic of banning something just because its an upgrade to stock version/slot.

We don't do this for:
gunboats
any of the melee weapons
crossbow

Cus they make the game more fun by changing it to make people able to play in more areas and not get so severely punished for drifting too far from the medic.

Something like banners that force building them on last, or loch n load sniping people from across a map are not diverse strategies.

There's plenty of other weapons that if people start using and get good with them, people will want them banned too (e.g. loose cannon, direct hit, beggars bazooka).

Then there's more weapons that are busted but are just annoying or they don't feel oppressive (e.g. wrap assassin, winger, solemn vow).

[quote=TurboTabs][quote=etf2l]Comparing the upsides with the downsides we feel the Loch-n-Load is an upgrade from the Iron Bomber/Grenade Launcher.[/quote]

I never got the logic of banning something just because its an upgrade to stock version/slot.

We don't do this for:
gunboats
any of the melee weapons
crossbow[/quote]

Cus they make the game more fun by changing it to make people able to play in more areas and not get so severely punished for drifting too far from the medic.

Something like banners that force building them on last, or loch n load sniping people from across a map are not diverse strategies.

There's plenty of other weapons that if people start using and get good with them, people will want them banned too (e.g. loose cannon, direct hit, beggars bazooka).

Then there's more weapons that are busted but are just annoying or they don't feel oppressive (e.g. wrap assassin, winger, solemn vow).
23
#23
-8 Frags +

Just gonna ignore the admins, everyone knows their reasoning is shit. The loch and load makes you better at direct combat and worse at indirect combat, full stop. The faster projectile speed is great in 1v1's, but your spam becomes way worse in teamfights. How many fights have froyo won because habib pipes your scout and medic behind the crates on process, behind hut on snake second, tetris on sunshine, etc? The loch's trajectory means you can't really spam behind things (not that you'd want to do that without rollers anyways) and you lose out on even more potential damage by being down a pipe off the bat. There's a reason most demos still run the iron bomber over the loch, and it's not just because IB sounds cooler.

Just gonna ignore the admins, everyone knows their reasoning is shit. The loch and load makes you better at direct combat and worse at indirect combat, full stop. The faster projectile speed is great in 1v1's, but your spam becomes way worse in teamfights. How many fights have froyo won because habib pipes your scout and medic behind the crates on process, behind hut on snake second, tetris on sunshine, etc? The loch's trajectory means you can't really spam behind things (not that you'd want to do that without rollers anyways) and you lose out on even more potential damage by being down a pipe off the bat. There's a reason most demos still run the iron bomber over the loch, and it's not just because IB sounds cooler.
24
#24
32 Frags +

you guys are pussies no further discussion required

you guys are pussies no further discussion required
25
#25
-3 Frags +

just dodge wtf

just dodge wtf
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#26
14 Frags +

Don't tell them about the direct hit.

Don't tell them about the direct hit.
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#27
-8 Frags +
Makban wrap assassin, dhit, beggars, manntreads, tomislav and loose cannon next, cheers! idc if the reasons on the forum are crap if these wepoinz are gone

I'm finding it very hard to see why you would want the beggars, tomislav or the direct hit banned considering the fact that none of these weapons are really straight upgrades. The beggars has literally been in the game for over a decade and in that timespan only a few pub youtubers and 1 competitive player (it took these players literal years of practise too btw) have gotten good enough with the gun to make it viable and run it full time. On top of dis the gun is literally amplified in NA by the fact the spoon remains unbanned in rgl, meaning u can do a crazy beggars jump and then just market garden da enemy.

I don't really see an argument for the tomi either considering the fact most of its upsides are just nonfactors in 6v6, it's not really a straight upgrade in any scenario outside of a long range kritz and even in dat case you only really see this on last holds. Stock minigun has a near identical output to tomislav in any other scenario and is even superior at some things, for example denying ubers.Idk it's hard for me to really see what arguments you have for this gun so I'd have to see ur side of da argument.

Direct hit is insane at two things but you literally just have 0 splash damage so you are forced to aim directs. -152 airshot and -130 at close range are quite strong ya but the guy on dh isn't gonna be anywhere near as impactful as a guy on stock launcher. U sacrifice a lot of what makes soldier a good class to play a scout's role basically.

I'm surprised I didn't see an actual straight upgrade on ur list which is the jag, considering dat weapon literally just completely invalidates every other wrench in 6v6 and makes the process of setting up a turtle significantly faster. Jag is just straight up better and if things are to be banned for being "Upgrades" dat weapon should be on the chopping block.

[quote=Mak]ban wrap assassin, dhit, beggars, manntreads, tomislav and loose cannon next, cheers! idc if the reasons on the forum are crap if these wepoinz are gone[/quote]

I'm finding it very hard to see why you would want the beggars, tomislav or the direct hit banned considering the fact that none of these weapons are really straight upgrades. The beggars has literally been in the game for over a decade and in that timespan only a few pub youtubers and 1 competitive player (it took these players literal years of practise too btw) have gotten good enough with the gun to make it viable and run it full time. On top of dis the gun is literally amplified in NA by the fact the spoon remains unbanned in rgl, meaning u can do a crazy beggars jump and then just market garden da enemy.

I don't really see an argument for the tomi either considering the fact most of its upsides are just nonfactors in 6v6, it's not really a straight upgrade in any scenario outside of a long range kritz and even in dat case you only really see this on last holds. Stock minigun has a near identical output to tomislav in any other scenario and is even superior at some things, for example denying ubers.Idk it's hard for me to really see what arguments you have for this gun so I'd have to see ur side of da argument.

Direct hit is insane at two things but you literally just have 0 splash damage so you are forced to aim directs. -152 airshot and -130 at close range are quite strong ya but the guy on dh isn't gonna be anywhere near as impactful as a guy on stock launcher. U sacrifice a lot of what makes soldier a good class to play a scout's role basically.

I'm surprised I didn't see an actual straight upgrade on ur list which is the jag, considering dat weapon literally just completely invalidates every other wrench in 6v6 and makes the process of setting up a turtle significantly faster. Jag is just straight up better and if things are to be banned for being "Upgrades" dat weapon should be on the chopping block.
28
#28
-4 Frags +
kn -

i know they arent straight upgradea, lnl wasnt either, its more about how they distort the base game to me. lnl gives demo too much pipe range, its stupid as hell.

beggars and dhit are wildly different from stock in a way that i reckon is unhealthy, even if stock is usually better. beggars is probably the stupider one to me because of the random variance + insane fire rate on loading multiples, but like u said 130 dmg rockets r a thing (and i dont think they should be in the environment)

tomislav is the one i have a weakest argument for but i just hate that it makes heavy silent. none of the other miniguns do dat and its stupid.

it basically comes down to my philosophy on how i'd rather the game be, which is minimised variables in this sense so thay everyone is playing with more or less the same kit and what differentiates you is teamplay, skill, etc. not that that isnt the case with these unlocks either, im not trying to cope about it or smth (i loved using loch, i like my soldiers equipping manntreads). i just think it makes for an objectively more competitive environment if ppl r using the same stuff.

[quote=kn] - [/quote]
i know they arent straight upgradea, lnl wasnt either, its more about how they distort the base game to me. lnl gives demo too much pipe range, its stupid as hell.

beggars and dhit are wildly different from stock in a way that i reckon is unhealthy, even if stock is usually better. beggars is probably the stupider one to me because of the random variance + insane fire rate on loading multiples, but like u said 130 dmg rockets r a thing (and i dont think they should be in the environment)

tomislav is the one i have a weakest argument for but i just hate that it makes heavy silent. none of the other miniguns do dat and its stupid.

it basically comes down to my philosophy on how i'd rather the game be, which is minimised variables in this sense so thay everyone is playing with more or less the same kit and what differentiates you is teamplay, skill, etc. not that that isnt the case with these unlocks either, im not trying to cope about it or smth (i loved using loch, i like my soldiers equipping manntreads). i just think it makes for an objectively more competitive environment if ppl r using the same stuff.
29
#29
2 Frags +

Pyro's sledgehammer is next

Pyro's sledgehammer is next
30
#30
33 Frags +

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/899891137668595773/1096522868046708866/TwitterUserSoyjak.png?width=775&height=676

[img]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/899891137668595773/1096522868046708866/TwitterUserSoyjak.png?width=775&height=676[/img]
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