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Why is Badlands not in any big league map pools?
1
#1
0 Frags +

If you were to give a few reasons why badlands/prolands is a bad map or why it shouldn't be played in any leagues for 6v6, what would they be?

If you were to give a few reasons why badlands/prolands is a bad map or why it shouldn't be played in any leagues for 6v6, what would they be?
2
#2
53 Frags +

new age tf2 players are babies and don't know what to do when the skybox isn't too high for an 8 sticky jump to reach

new age tf2 players are babies and don't know what to do when the skybox isn't too high for an 8 sticky jump to reach
3
#3
31 Frags +

Last

Last
4
#4
2 Frags +
Air_new age tf2 players are babies and don't know what to do when the skybox isn't too high for an 8 sticky jump to reach

What about clippings, choke points, last in general, house and awkward surfaces?

[quote=Air_]new age tf2 players are babies and don't know what to do when the skybox isn't too high for an 8 sticky jump to reach[/quote]
What about clippings, choke points, last in general, house and awkward surfaces?
5
#5
29 Frags +

really? badlands?

really? badlands?
6
#6
-18 Frags +

the rest of europe fears the germans on badlands because as we all know its every germans favorite map

the rest of europe fears the germans on badlands because as we all know its every germans favorite map
7
#7
-13 Frags +

theres a reason why its called BADlands

theres a reason why its called BADlands
8
#8
6 Frags +

Similar problems as what Snakewater has but somehow that's all fine in the map pool

Moving from one point to another can be turned into an absolute snoozefest (easily possible in any 5cp map tbf) and teams attacking last point have short spawn times
Pretty sure the spawn times got somewhat fixed in Prolands then but that also brought in the issue with the last point capture time with the community making the decision whether it should be 1 or 2 seconds, and as expected we didn't come to any decent conclusion as to which is better

Similar problems as what Snakewater has but somehow that's all fine in the map pool

Moving from one point to another can be turned into an absolute snoozefest (easily possible in any 5cp map tbf) and teams attacking last point have short spawn times
Pretty sure the spawn times got somewhat fixed in Prolands then but that also brought in the issue with the last point capture time with the community making the decision whether it should be 1 or 2 seconds, and as expected we didn't come to any decent conclusion as to which is better
9
#9
-13 Frags +

I pretty much feel like badlands isn't played anymore because we started to introduce a pro version and inevitably split the community due to the fact that some preferred the shorter last cap time while others liked the longer one.

Yet another example of "given tf2 players options is a bad idea"...

I pretty much feel like badlands isn't played anymore because we started to introduce a pro version and inevitably split the community due to the fact that some preferred the shorter last cap time while others liked the longer one.

Yet another example of "given tf2 players options is a bad idea"...
10
#10
-8 Frags +

second to last and last to second is bad and the lobby is basically unfixable
notoriously bad clipping throughout the map(spire has some of the worst clipping of anything in any map but at least that's not usually a problem in actual badlands gameplay that isn't mge) and more splash-eating surfaces in general than you run into in current maps

pro versions were tried, but the to/from last flows were basically unfixable, and it was and is most definitely worse than pushing out of snakewater. Snakewater being bad to a comparable extent isn't snakewater being as bad as the Badlands themselves.

Mid and second were fine though... outside of the obvious clipping and splash issues related to the fairly irregular surfaces.

second to last and last to second is bad and the lobby is basically unfixable
notoriously bad clipping throughout the map(spire has some of the worst clipping of anything in any map but at least that's not usually a problem in actual badlands gameplay that isn't mge) and more splash-eating surfaces in general than you run into in current maps

pro versions were tried, but the to/from last flows were basically unfixable, and it was and is most definitely worse than pushing out of snakewater. Snakewater being bad to a comparable extent isn't snakewater being as bad as the Badlands themselves.

Mid and second were fine though... outside of the obvious clipping and splash issues related to the fairly irregular surfaces.
11
#11
0 Frags +

if the map isn't fun, why play it?

if the map isn't fun, why play it?
12
#12
31 Frags +
sunderkeeninit was and is most definitely worse than pushing out of snakewater.

The difference is that snakewater doesn't have any design flaws: pushing out is only a problem because of the spawn times which enable the attacking team to sac three and still contest 2nd point in time. Badlands last is just a massive slog to play for both sides because the entire lobby+last area consists of extremely small doors with long corridors that are all being held by projectiles and a sentry gun.

[quote=sunderkeenin]
it was and is most definitely worse than pushing out of snakewater.
[/quote]

The difference is that snakewater doesn't have any design flaws: pushing out is only a problem because of the spawn times which enable the attacking team to sac three and still contest 2nd point in time. Badlands last is just a massive slog to play for both sides because the entire lobby+last area consists of extremely small doors with long corridors that are all being held by projectiles and a sentry gun.
13
#13
25 Frags +

I actually think that badlands (especially the "Australian" version without a closed off ring on last and a 2 second cap time) has a very interesting flow. In my opinion the reason why its not played is because it is not a good pug map, as pushing out of last with an uncoordinated team is really aids.
Another factor is that contrary to something like process, the positioning for most classes/roles is not very intuitive, thus making it not easy to pick up for newer players.

I'm pretty sure the map would be fun to try out in a league setting. Even the 1 second cap standard version would be interesting to try out now that the quickie bomber is banned.

Also banning pyro would probably fix this map and make last stalemates way less aids, but this can be probably said about every small last :P.

I actually think that badlands (especially the "Australian" version without a closed off ring on last and a 2 second cap time) has a very interesting flow. In my opinion the reason why its not played is because it is not a good pug map, as pushing out of last with an uncoordinated team is really aids.
Another factor is that contrary to something like process, the positioning for most classes/roles is not very intuitive, thus making it not easy to pick up for newer players.

I'm pretty sure the map would be fun to try out in a league setting. Even the 1 second cap standard version would be interesting to try out now that the quickie bomber is banned.

Also banning pyro would probably fix this map and make last stalemates way less aids, but this can be probably said about every small last :P.
14
#14
7 Frags +
Loudthe rest of europe fears the germans on badlands because as we all know its every germans favorite map

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/032/313/maxresdefault.jpg

[quote=Loud]the rest of europe fears the germans on badlands because as we all know its every germans favorite map[/quote]
[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/032/313/maxresdefault.jpg[/img]
15
#15
11 Frags +

With quickies banned it would be very intresting to try 1s last cap badlands again

With quickies banned it would be very intresting to try 1s last cap badlands again
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#16
-2 Frags +
albaWith quickies banned it would be very intresting to try 1s last cap badlands again

hot take maybe but I actually liked that badlands had a niche quickiebomb strat (with 2s cap tho)

[quote=alba]With quickies banned it would be very intresting to try 1s last cap badlands again[/quote]
hot take maybe but I actually liked that badlands had a niche quickiebomb strat (with 2s cap tho)
17
#17
29 Frags +

in RGL they basically decided that they would not entertain the idea of old maps being updated (blands, granary) when new ones are being updated because it would be 'a giant middle finger to mappers' (or something along those lines, makka was talking about it on stream a bit ago)

logic doesn't really make sense though cause the current way of doing it just forces shitty underdeveloped maps into the pool that everyone inevitably hates (cardinal, villa, propaganda, clearcut/bagel to a lesser extent because koth is inherently fun and much harder to make a bad map) and people in general are so closed minded that after you put in an early version of a map they will not want to reconsider it

villa is the only new map that has ever been kept in for more than a season afaik but there are still no major changes or proposed changes to show from all of this testing, really don't see why prolands with slower respawn times/quickiebomb ban couldn't be thrown in next season to replace villa or at least CONSIDERED in a cup or a vote

even with whatever flaws it has there have been so many strategies developed over the years for different midfights or flank wrap pushes or whatever, its a real shame that the map got removed due to one single season's post season poll and will now never be reconsidered (lol)

in RGL they basically decided that they would not entertain the idea of old maps being updated (blands, granary) when new ones are being updated because it would be 'a giant middle finger to mappers' (or something along those lines, makka was talking about it on stream a bit ago)

logic doesn't really make sense though cause the current way of doing it just forces shitty underdeveloped maps into the pool that everyone inevitably hates (cardinal, villa, propaganda, clearcut/bagel to a lesser extent because koth is inherently fun and much harder to make a bad map) and people in general are so closed minded that after you put in an early version of a map they will not want to reconsider it

villa is the only new map that has ever been kept in for more than a season afaik but there are still no major changes or proposed changes to show from all of this testing, really don't see why prolands with slower respawn times/quickiebomb ban couldn't be thrown in next season to replace villa or at least CONSIDERED in a cup or a vote

even with whatever flaws it has there have been so many strategies developed over the years for different midfights or flank wrap pushes or whatever, its a real shame that the map got removed due to one single season's post season poll and will now never be reconsidered (lol)
18
#18
4 Frags +
Tobhot take maybe but I actually liked that badlands had a niche quickiebomb strat (with 2s cap tho)

It's not much of a beautiful/intricate strat to delete all stickies in a small area then bumrush guys onto point like dickheads, it's just very effective (if enemy team is poorly setup, but even with the right defense it can be hard). The defending team need to commit a soldier to bottom left, and one to point while a demo holds top door(s), and none of these guys can make an error at any point (impossible even while playing properly as there will be a gap where you need to get ammo). All this being said, i imagine it would still be easy enough to play point even without quickies.

A lot of what Voxi and Gazy said is true as for reasons to not like it (imo), the lobby + last is completely unfixable without massively changing both. The 2nd fight is incredibly unintuitive to every other fight with how vertical the balcony area of lobby + spire is and how fuckin THICK the spire is. Demo and Medic on both sides kinda just chill with very little vision/impact and try protect themselves / kill guys who feed onto the wrong side of the spire, while Soldiers and Scouts dominate da fight. I think the flank having a resup is just goofy as hell and wasnt abused nearly enough when the map was played, maybe im remembering wrong tho + i was way worse when this map was played.

Upsides are that mid is very interesting both for midfights as well as ways to play mid in all the different states in the game. House is also a pretty fun area, every other part of the map just kinda sucks tho.

There was a map collaide made a while ago that took a lot of inspiration from badlands but was updated with a lot of modern solutions (especially to the lobby/last) that i remember playtest dmixing on a few months ago. It wasn't perfect but I think if anything we should be trying that out, tho idk if collaide is still interested in continuing development.

[quote=Tob]
hot take maybe but I actually liked that badlands had a niche quickiebomb strat (with 2s cap tho)[/quote]

It's not much of a beautiful/intricate strat to delete all stickies in a small area then bumrush guys onto point like dickheads, it's just very effective (if enemy team is poorly setup, but even with the right defense it can be hard). The defending team need to commit a soldier to bottom left, and one to point while a demo holds top door(s), and none of these guys can make an error at any point (impossible even while playing properly as there will be a gap where you need to get ammo). All this being said, i imagine it would still be easy enough to play point even without quickies.

A lot of what Voxi and Gazy said is true as for reasons to not like it (imo), the lobby + last is completely unfixable without massively changing both. The 2nd fight is incredibly unintuitive to every other fight with how vertical the balcony area of lobby + spire is and how fuckin THICK the spire is. Demo and Medic on both sides kinda just chill with very little vision/impact and try protect themselves / kill guys who feed onto the wrong side of the spire, while Soldiers and Scouts dominate da fight. I think the flank having a resup is just goofy as hell and wasnt abused nearly enough when the map was played, maybe im remembering wrong tho + i was way worse when this map was played.

Upsides are that mid is very interesting both for midfights as well as ways to play mid in all the different states in the game. House is also a pretty fun area, every other part of the map just kinda sucks tho.

There was a map collaide made a while ago that took a lot of inspiration from badlands but was updated with a lot of modern solutions (especially to the lobby/last) that i remember playtest dmixing on a few months ago. It wasn't perfect but I think if anything we should be trying that out, tho idk if collaide is still interested in continuing development.
19
#19
26 Frags +

Because ire thought it's a really good idea to rely on a season 2 survey and will refuse to add badlands/granary to a poll in current day just to see if they would be more popular than villa/clearcut/bagel as he is convinced the poll would be heavily skewed because of TFTV and not "appeal to new players".

Basically we have no control over letting awful players make decisions for us and I have to play 18 matches every season for 0 reason on awful maps. Lord forbid you ask them to just include blands/gran in a strawpoll, you'll get told you are a fucking idiot because *THE SEASON 2 SURVEY SAYS*, not like we are about to enter season 7. Surpassing information is the only way those people can cope with their decision making because I am sure by this point even their colleagues think they are legit apes.

And I will legit rope on twitch if I hear one more time that "it's for the growth of the game" like yea dude this game's been POPPING OFF, we all make so much fucking money and hang out at the sickest restaurants off winnings we make in TF2. We just wanna have fun on non-shit maps because we played this game way longer than you and can kinda tell wtf makes a good map or not, it's not that complicated. Maybe the rest of RGL is community ran but Invite is certainly not.

Because ire thought it's a really good idea to rely on a season 2 survey and will refuse to add badlands/granary to a poll in current day just to see if they would be more popular than villa/clearcut/bagel as he is convinced the poll would be heavily skewed because of TFTV and not "appeal to new players".

Basically we have no control over letting awful players make decisions for us and I have to play 18 matches every season for 0 reason on awful maps. Lord forbid you ask them to just include blands/gran in a strawpoll, you'll get told you are a fucking idiot because *THE SEASON 2 SURVEY SAYS*, not like we are about to enter season 7. Surpassing information is the only way those people can cope with their decision making because I am sure by this point even their colleagues think they are legit apes.

And I will legit rope on twitch if I hear one more time that "it's for the growth of the game" like yea dude this game's been POPPING OFF, we all make so much fucking money and hang out at the sickest restaurants off winnings we make in TF2. We just wanna have fun on non-shit maps because we played this game way longer than you and can kinda tell wtf makes a good map or not, it's not that complicated. Maybe the rest of RGL is community ran but Invite is certainly not.
20
#20
10 Frags +

i remember it was my favourite map and im sure top players at the time were saying if you can beat a team on badlands, you were the better team, like it was the map that decided it

then i come back and it was rat aids and was decided by scouts just running onto the point. i think at some point someone stupidly changed it and it went from the best map to the worst map

i remember it was my favourite map and im sure top players at the time were saying if you can beat a team on badlands, you were the better team, like it was the map that decided it

then i come back and it was rat aids and was decided by scouts just running onto the point. i think at some point someone stupidly changed it and it went from the best map to the worst map
21
#21
34 Frags +

All the complaints here are a result of not playing the map enough. Weird how players who played the map can hold last and push out properly because they played it as much as the other maps?

All the complaints here are a result of not playing the map enough. Weird how players who played the map can hold last and push out properly because they played it as much as the other maps?
22
#22
52 Frags +
krometf2What about clippings, choke points, last in general, house and awkward surfaces?

https://i.imgflip.com/5h7t4n.jpg

[quote=krometf2]
What about clippings, choke points, last in general, house and awkward surfaces?[/quote]


[img]https://i.imgflip.com/5h7t4n.jpg[/img]
23
#23
16 Frags +

RGL decisions aside I've had some of the closest most interesting games on badlands, as sil said good teams definitely know how to play the map fine and the 'hard to push in/out of last' complaint applies for both teams and just makes for much more hard fought and back and forth matches, same thing with granary there were so many great back and forth games and interesting strategies but the pug zoomers got the better of it and voted it out lol

the arguments that something isn't a good pug map because it takes coordination are kind of funny given how dead pugs currently are but are also just a point in its favor, more strategy and teamplay is a good thing and adds more depth to the game

RGL decisions aside I've had some of the closest most interesting games on badlands, as sil said good teams definitely know how to play the map fine and the 'hard to push in/out of last' complaint applies for both teams and just makes for much more hard fought and back and forth matches, same thing with granary there were so many great back and forth games and interesting strategies but the pug zoomers got the better of it and voted it out lol

the arguments that something isn't a good pug map because it takes coordination are kind of funny given how dead pugs currently are but are also just a point in its favor, more strategy and teamplay is a good thing and adds more depth to the game
24
#24
12 Frags +

there was a period of about ten esea playoffs in a row where the tensest, most exciting match was on badlands

there was a period of about ten esea playoffs in a row where the tensest, most exciting match was on badlands
25
#25
8 Frags +

i love badlands and i love my 2009 complexity backburner mids or epsilon mids... I love seeing relic getting a 3k with the equaliser and i love mge_spire serving an actual purpose to play on.... I love rotating heals and do epic spire holds.. I love an offensive lvl2 gun in main covering the last point and solidsnake tard charging the point... all those moments...lost like tires in rainforest..

i love badlands and i love my 2009 complexity backburner mids or epsilon mids... I love seeing relic getting a 3k with the equaliser and i love mge_spire serving an actual purpose to play on.... I love rotating heals and do epic spire holds.. I love an offensive lvl2 gun in main covering the last point and solidsnake tard charging the point... all those moments...lost like tires in rainforest..
26
#26
13 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/pSibZUY.gif

ire explaining why villa is still in the map pool

[img]https://i.imgur.com/pSibZUY.gif[/img]

ire explaining why villa is still in the map pool
27
#27
15 Frags +

at the least the euros still have granary, the fact that we don't is ridiculous imo

at the least the euros still have granary, the fact that we don't is ridiculous imo
28
#28
7 Frags +

Can we maybe have a cup that reintroduces it into the map pool and see how it goes? I played back in etf2l s12 and then took a 8 year long break only to find my favourite map removed without really understanding why. Granted, the meta was different back then (pocket soldier with shotgun, two scouts on flank, I'm a dinosaur), so perhaps the issues with the map were not as glaring back then as they were after I quit. I do remember the mid strats on that map were very intricate (and thus fun) something I miss on maps like Sunshine and Process.

Can we maybe have a cup that reintroduces it into the map pool and see how it goes? I played back in etf2l s12 and then took a 8 year long break only to find my favourite map removed without really understanding why. Granted, the meta was different back then (pocket soldier with shotgun, two scouts on flank, I'm a dinosaur), so perhaps the issues with the map were not as glaring back then as they were after I quit. I do remember the mid strats on that map were very intricate (and thus fun) something I miss on maps like Sunshine and Process.
29
#29
13 Frags +
brodyhttps://i.imgur.com/pSibZUY.gif

ire explaining why villa is still in the map pool

badlands is definitely better than villa, and people being too retarded to play a map isn't an argument unless they plan to remove Steel from highlander, something that should never be done.

[quote=brody][img]https://i.imgur.com/pSibZUY.gif[/img]

ire explaining why villa is still in the map pool[/quote]
badlands is definitely better than villa, and people being too retarded to play a map isn't an argument unless they plan to remove Steel from highlander, something that should never be done.
30
#30
-11 Frags +

bro i really feel like people forget how many esea and etf2l playoff, and lan matches went to golden cap or timeout on badlands. worst map to watch invite or prem level no question

bro i really feel like people forget how many esea and etf2l playoff, and lan matches went to golden cap or timeout on badlands. worst map to watch invite or prem level no question
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