GrapeJuiceIIIthis shit happens to every player an innumerable amount of times per season
this shit happens to every player an innumerable amount of times per season
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[img]https://gyazo.com/7efcbfd94bf2e0808469996b46674e83.gif[/img]
GrapeJuiceIIII genuinely wanted to rip my hair out when this happened. For the record, b4nny lawyer'ing this point was clever and technically right - but technically right is about the worst kind of right you can be. RGL needs an updated mission statement re: springrolls
Does it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.
I genuinely wanted to rip my hair out when this happened. For the record, b4nny lawyer'ing this point was clever and technically right - but technically right is about the worst kind of right you can be. RGL needs an updated mission statement re: springrolls
[/quote]
Does it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.
posting for posterity
https://streamable.com/8gxp9e
https://streamable.com/8gxp9e
nerd essay inbound
dingo
upvote
MiG-21bisDoes it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.
if you ask me - fuck no the mission statement shouldn't be relevant to a weapon ban! but iirc from a year ago the argument b4nny made was relevant to the "meta" section and how people still used iron bomber and that iron bomber was still a sidegrade and that banning loch mean restricting options/banning a playstyle. he justified his position by stating that none of the demos at s15 lan playoffs used the loch. if you ask me its a fine argument but one i strongly disagree with for this weapon in particular.
re:re:re: "The Meta" Mission Statement. / soapy's post about demoman risk vs reward / ETF2L philosophy
there is so much nuance within the game with regard to timing and movement and communication that fills sixes with depth. the mechanical aspect of the game is what brings depth to sixes and when it comes to "THE META" this is where change really lies. uber targets, flash timings and what the player will do with the flash, bomb timings, which door you're pushing off of what picks, who's holding which door off of which picks, should your beam play closer in x situation? blah blah blah blah blah. I have had countless discussions with teammates on invite teams about the little details that will make or break fights. THAT is the definition of depth. THAT is what should influence playstyle if you ask me. sigafoo's mission statement talks about "not getting stuck doing things that arent working" and if you ask me, 99% of what constitutes Doing Things That Arent Working are mechanical, timing, and communication based.
From the way I interpret what "THE META" means and what brings depth to the game - weapons such as the loch and ball require so little to create so much that it actually stifles that nuance. I will never downplay 30 damage IB impact, but it requires actual teamwork to capitalize on (e.g. 30 damage on a medic means a 120hp 2 rocket instead of a 150hp 2 rocket, which is a night and day difference - also your teammates must understand that the 30 damage stacked on top of each other is meaningful, which i would again argue is an example of depth) as well as requiring your demo to play FORWARD in order to hit the good spam angles and get consistent chances at the big 100 damage pipes - meaning your demoman must WEIGH THE RISK of continuing to spam vs leaving the fight. loch n load misses out on the 30 damage rollers absolutely, but the 100 damage pipe is so stupidly impactful in its own right, you get like AT LEAST 6 chances at it during a typical dry fight, and also ur demo is unbombable while this happens (also as a contrast to the stacked 30 damage nuance, 100 damage is so blatantly obviously impactful that a toddler would try to follow up on it)
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper doesnt have sticky bombs and 260 health also fuck sniper man we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper captures at 1x rate, cant give my medic scout speed, cant double jump, has no consistent burst damage for a team fight. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
in my opinion, despite the stereotyping that the ETF2L is more "conservative" and messaging that RGL is more "progressive" - actions speak louder than words. map pool is another story, but strictly regarding gameplay, the europeans have something they deem ruins the game - they ban it. there's a quality of life fix - they implement it. oh no the qol fix was actually broken, they revert it. here in NA we sit here and twiddle our thumbs and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and (here comes another gj3 projectiles pass thru friendlies qol fix moment sorry) oh horse run monthly tested it and polled it and 80% of people liked it ok so we all agree we should add it ok lets add it just kidding its still not in the config and can you tell im losing my mind yet????????????
tldr ban loch ban ball ban quickies the meta spans entire GALAXIES beyond weapon bans
upvote
[quote=MiG-21bis]
Does it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.[/quote]
if you ask me - fuck no the mission statement shouldn't be relevant to a weapon ban! but iirc from a year ago the argument b4nny made was relevant to the "meta" section and how people still used iron bomber and that iron bomber was still a sidegrade and that banning loch mean restricting options/banning a playstyle. he justified his position by stating that none of the demos at s15 lan playoffs used the loch. if you ask me its a fine argument but one i strongly disagree with for this weapon in particular.
re:re:re: "The Meta" Mission Statement. / soapy's post about demoman risk vs reward / ETF2L philosophy
there is so much nuance within the game with regard to timing and movement and communication that fills sixes with depth. the mechanical aspect of the game is what brings depth to sixes and when it comes to [b][i]"THE META"[/i][/b] this is where change really lies. uber targets, flash timings and what the player will do with the flash, bomb timings, which door you're pushing off of what picks, who's holding which door off of which picks, should your beam play closer in x situation? blah blah blah blah blah. I have had countless discussions with teammates on invite teams about the little details that will make or break fights. THAT is the definition of depth. THAT is what should influence playstyle if you ask me. sigafoo's mission statement talks about "not getting stuck doing things that arent working" and if you ask me, 99% of what constitutes Doing Things That Arent Working are mechanical, timing, and communication based.
From the way I interpret what [b][i]"THE META"[/i][/b] means and what brings depth to the game - weapons such as the loch and ball require so little to create so much that it actually stifles that nuance. I will never downplay 30 damage IB impact, but it requires actual teamwork to capitalize on (e.g. 30 damage on a medic means a 120hp 2 rocket instead of a 150hp 2 rocket, which is a night and day difference - also your teammates must understand that the 30 damage stacked on top of each other is meaningful, which i would again argue is an example of depth) as well as requiring your demo to play FORWARD in order to hit the good spam angles and get consistent chances at the big 100 damage pipes - meaning your demoman must WEIGH THE RISK of continuing to spam vs leaving the fight. loch n load misses out on the 30 damage rollers absolutely, but the 100 damage pipe is so stupidly impactful in its own right, you get like AT LEAST 6 chances at it during a typical dry fight, and also ur demo is unbombable while this happens (also as a contrast to the stacked 30 damage nuance, 100 damage is so blatantly obviously impactful that a toddler would try to follow up on it)
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper doesnt have sticky bombs and 260 health also fuck sniper man we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
[spoiler]i mentioned the wrap assassin and its a similar story. 57-65 damage crit ball + bleed = pretty much 100 damage on a 7.5 second cooldown for the scout class same shit different pile
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper captures at 1x rate, cant give my medic scout speed, cant double jump, has no consistent burst damage for a team fight. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.[/spoiler]
in my opinion, despite the stereotyping that the ETF2L is more "conservative" and messaging that RGL is more "progressive" - actions speak louder than words. map pool is another story, but strictly regarding gameplay, the europeans have something they deem ruins the game - they ban it. there's a quality of life fix - they implement it. oh no the qol fix was actually broken, they revert it. here in NA we sit here and twiddle our thumbs and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and (here comes another gj3 projectiles pass thru friendlies qol fix moment sorry) oh horse run monthly tested it and polled it and 80% of people liked it ok so we all agree we should add it ok lets add it just kidding its still not in the config and can you tell im losing my mind yet????????????
tldr ban loch ban ball ban quickies the meta spans entire GALAXIES beyond weapon bans
rgl end of season survey is live and there are questions about banning loch, quickies, and wrap assassin
GrapeJuiceIII
we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
I read the last sentence as "applies to oranges as far as im concerned" and thought it was political criticism.
we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
[/quote]
I read the last sentence as "applies to oranges as far as im concerned" and thought it was political criticism.
run full time pyro deflect loch pipes problem solved i am unbiased
notice how theres no demo mains in here posting about how the gun is fun to use
loch is for sure more fun to use than ib/stock, you get to land more pipes and have more control over how they hit
its fun to roleplay as an artillery cannon, doesnt mean i dont think it should be banned
brodynotice how theres no demo mains in here posting about how the gun is fun to use
loch is definitely very fun to use, but iron bomber is also fun to use in its own way
i think people arent posting in favor of the loch in this thread because its guaranteed downfrags (i voted ban for the record but im overall ambivalent)
loch is definitely very fun to use, but iron bomber is also fun to use in its own way
i think people arent posting in favor of the loch in this thread because its guaranteed downfrags (i voted ban for the record but im overall ambivalent)
brodynotice how theres no demo mains in here posting about how the gun is fun to use
As a partial demo main I say the loch is fun to use but you know deep down isn't balanced. Whenever I used this weapon in both hl/6s it was downright insanity with what I was able to get away with. For hl, I would instantly take down sentries along with getting long range picks to the combo/sniper without any repercussions, the weapon would get shortly banned right after it became meta. As for 6s, I would literally snipe people across mid with virtually no effort out of prediction, it's just not a fair weapon to go against when it's practically hitscan in terms of aim compared to iron bomber.
As a partial demo main I say the loch is fun to use but you know deep down isn't balanced. Whenever I used this weapon in both hl/6s it was downright insanity with what I was able to get away with. For hl, I would instantly take down sentries along with getting long range picks to the combo/sniper without any repercussions, the weapon would get shortly banned right after it became meta. As for 6s, I would literally snipe people across mid with virtually no effort out of prediction, it's just not a fair weapon to go against when it's practically hitscan in terms of aim compared to iron bomber.