GrapeJuiceIIIthis shit happens to every player an innumerable amount of times per season
this shit happens to every player an innumerable amount of times per season
[/quote]
[img]https://gyazo.com/7efcbfd94bf2e0808469996b46674e83.gif[/img]
GrapeJuiceIIII genuinely wanted to rip my hair out when this happened. For the record, b4nny lawyer'ing this point was clever and technically right - but technically right is about the worst kind of right you can be. RGL needs an updated mission statement re: springrolls
Does it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.
I genuinely wanted to rip my hair out when this happened. For the record, b4nny lawyer'ing this point was clever and technically right - but technically right is about the worst kind of right you can be. RGL needs an updated mission statement re: springrolls
[/quote]
Does it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.
posting for posterity
https://streamable.com/8gxp9e
https://streamable.com/8gxp9e
nerd essay inbound
dingo
upvote
MiG-21bisDoes it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.
if you ask me - fuck no the mission statement shouldn't be relevant to a weapon ban! but iirc from a year ago the argument b4nny made was relevant to the "meta" section and how people still used iron bomber and that iron bomber was still a sidegrade and that banning loch mean restricting options/banning a playstyle. he justified his position by stating that none of the demos at s15 lan playoffs used the loch. if you ask me its a fine argument but one i strongly disagree with for this weapon in particular.
re:re:re: "The Meta" Mission Statement. / soapy's post about demoman risk vs reward / ETF2L philosophy
there is so much nuance within the game with regard to timing and movement and communication that fills sixes with depth. the mechanical aspect of the game is what brings depth to sixes and when it comes to "THE META" this is where change really lies. uber targets, flash timings and what the player will do with the flash, bomb timings, which door you're pushing off of what picks, who's holding which door off of which picks, should your beam play closer in x situation? blah blah blah blah blah. I have had countless discussions with teammates on invite teams about the little details that will make or break fights. THAT is the definition of depth. THAT is what should influence playstyle if you ask me. sigafoo's mission statement talks about "not getting stuck doing things that arent working" and if you ask me, 99% of what constitutes Doing Things That Arent Working are mechanical, timing, and communication based.
From the way I interpret what "THE META" means and what brings depth to the game - weapons such as the loch and ball require so little to create so much that it actually stifles that nuance. I will never downplay 30 damage IB impact, but it requires actual teamwork to capitalize on (e.g. 30 damage on a medic means a 120hp 2 rocket instead of a 150hp 2 rocket, which is a night and day difference - also your teammates must understand that the 30 damage stacked on top of each other is meaningful, which i would again argue is an example of depth) as well as requiring your demo to play FORWARD in order to hit the good spam angles and get consistent chances at the big 100 damage pipes - meaning your demoman must WEIGH THE RISK of continuing to spam vs leaving the fight. loch n load misses out on the 30 damage rollers absolutely, but the 100 damage pipe is so stupidly impactful in its own right, you get like AT LEAST 6 chances at it during a typical dry fight, and also ur demo is unbombable while this happens (also as a contrast to the stacked 30 damage nuance, 100 damage is so blatantly obviously impactful that a toddler would try to follow up on it)
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper doesnt have sticky bombs and 260 health also fuck sniper man we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper captures at 1x rate, cant give my medic scout speed, cant double jump, has no consistent burst damage for a team fight. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
in my opinion, despite the stereotyping that the ETF2L is more "conservative" and messaging that RGL is more "progressive" - actions speak louder than words. map pool is another story, but strictly regarding gameplay, the europeans have something they deem ruins the game - they ban it. there's a quality of life fix - they implement it. oh no the qol fix was actually broken, they revert it. here in NA we sit here and twiddle our thumbs and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and (here comes another gj3 projectiles pass thru friendlies qol fix moment sorry) oh horse run monthly tested it and polled it and 80% of people liked it ok so we all agree we should add it ok lets add it just kidding its still not in the config and can you tell im losing my mind yet????????????
tldr ban loch ban ball ban quickies the meta spans entire GALAXIES beyond weapon bans
upvote
[quote=MiG-21bis]
Does it really eliminate banning loch? There is precedent for banning "direct upgrade" weapons such as the pocket pistol and cow mangler. Clearly the mission statement isn't a top priority or else those weapons would be allowed.[/quote]
if you ask me - fuck no the mission statement shouldn't be relevant to a weapon ban! but iirc from a year ago the argument b4nny made was relevant to the "meta" section and how people still used iron bomber and that iron bomber was still a sidegrade and that banning loch mean restricting options/banning a playstyle. he justified his position by stating that none of the demos at s15 lan playoffs used the loch. if you ask me its a fine argument but one i strongly disagree with for this weapon in particular.
re:re:re: "The Meta" Mission Statement. / soapy's post about demoman risk vs reward / ETF2L philosophy
there is so much nuance within the game with regard to timing and movement and communication that fills sixes with depth. the mechanical aspect of the game is what brings depth to sixes and when it comes to [b][i]"THE META"[/i][/b] this is where change really lies. uber targets, flash timings and what the player will do with the flash, bomb timings, which door you're pushing off of what picks, who's holding which door off of which picks, should your beam play closer in x situation? blah blah blah blah blah. I have had countless discussions with teammates on invite teams about the little details that will make or break fights. THAT is the definition of depth. THAT is what should influence playstyle if you ask me. sigafoo's mission statement talks about "not getting stuck doing things that arent working" and if you ask me, 99% of what constitutes Doing Things That Arent Working are mechanical, timing, and communication based.
From the way I interpret what [b][i]"THE META"[/i][/b] means and what brings depth to the game - weapons such as the loch and ball require so little to create so much that it actually stifles that nuance. I will never downplay 30 damage IB impact, but it requires actual teamwork to capitalize on (e.g. 30 damage on a medic means a 120hp 2 rocket instead of a 150hp 2 rocket, which is a night and day difference - also your teammates must understand that the 30 damage stacked on top of each other is meaningful, which i would again argue is an example of depth) as well as requiring your demo to play FORWARD in order to hit the good spam angles and get consistent chances at the big 100 damage pipes - meaning your demoman must WEIGH THE RISK of continuing to spam vs leaving the fight. loch n load misses out on the 30 damage rollers absolutely, but the 100 damage pipe is so stupidly impactful in its own right, you get like AT LEAST 6 chances at it during a typical dry fight, and also ur demo is unbombable while this happens (also as a contrast to the stacked 30 damage nuance, 100 damage is so blatantly obviously impactful that a toddler would try to follow up on it)
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper doesnt have sticky bombs and 260 health also fuck sniper man we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
[spoiler]i mentioned the wrap assassin and its a similar story. 57-65 damage crit ball + bleed = pretty much 100 damage on a 7.5 second cooldown for the scout class same shit different pile
"but gj3 sniper exists" - yes but sniper captures at 1x rate, cant give my medic scout speed, cant double jump, has no consistent burst damage for a team fight. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.[/spoiler]
in my opinion, despite the stereotyping that the ETF2L is more "conservative" and messaging that RGL is more "progressive" - actions speak louder than words. map pool is another story, but strictly regarding gameplay, the europeans have something they deem ruins the game - they ban it. there's a quality of life fix - they implement it. oh no the qol fix was actually broken, they revert it. here in NA we sit here and twiddle our thumbs and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and talk about testing and (here comes another gj3 projectiles pass thru friendlies qol fix moment sorry) oh horse run monthly tested it and polled it and 80% of people liked it ok so we all agree we should add it ok lets add it just kidding its still not in the config and can you tell im losing my mind yet????????????
tldr ban loch ban ball ban quickies the meta spans entire GALAXIES beyond weapon bans
rgl end of season survey is live and there are questions about banning loch, quickies, and wrap assassin
GrapeJuiceIII
we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
I read the last sentence as "applies to oranges as far as im concerned" and thought it was political criticism.
we don't need another guy who can sit back and do a million damage at no risk of death. apples to oranges as far as im concerned.
[/quote]
I read the last sentence as "applies to oranges as far as im concerned" and thought it was political criticism.
run full time pyro deflect loch pipes problem solved i am unbiased
notice how theres no demo mains in here posting about how the gun is fun to use
loch is for sure more fun to use than ib/stock, you get to land more pipes and have more control over how they hit
its fun to roleplay as an artillery cannon, doesnt mean i dont think it should be banned
brodynotice how theres no demo mains in here posting about how the gun is fun to use
loch is definitely very fun to use, but iron bomber is also fun to use in its own way
i think people arent posting in favor of the loch in this thread because its guaranteed downfrags (i voted ban for the record but im overall ambivalent)
loch is definitely very fun to use, but iron bomber is also fun to use in its own way
i think people arent posting in favor of the loch in this thread because its guaranteed downfrags (i voted ban for the record but im overall ambivalent)
brodynotice how theres no demo mains in here posting about how the gun is fun to use
As a partial demo main I say the loch is fun to use but you know deep down isn't balanced. Whenever I used this weapon in both hl/6s it was downright insanity with what I was able to get away with. For hl, I would instantly take down sentries along with getting long range picks to the combo/sniper without any repercussions, the weapon would get shortly banned right after it became meta. As for 6s, I would literally snipe people across mid with virtually no effort out of prediction, it's just not a fair weapon to go against when it's practically hitscan in terms of aim compared to iron bomber.
As a partial demo main I say the loch is fun to use but you know deep down isn't balanced. Whenever I used this weapon in both hl/6s it was downright insanity with what I was able to get away with. For hl, I would instantly take down sentries along with getting long range picks to the combo/sniper without any repercussions, the weapon would get shortly banned right after it became meta. As for 6s, I would literally snipe people across mid with virtually no effort out of prediction, it's just not a fair weapon to go against when it's practically hitscan in terms of aim compared to iron bomber.
Divine's video reminded me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMsSZ1OGYc&t=252s
This is a video from 2015 (reuploaded by an archive) demonstrating the Loch shooting across the entirety of Badlands second. You can spam shutter and batts from choke. This video is ten years old.
If someone were to make a "Loch n Load spam angles" video for the current map pool that would be the final nail. (Assuming it doesn't get banned in the next few days)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHMsSZ1OGYc&t=252s
This is a video from [b]2015[/b] (reuploaded by an archive) demonstrating the Loch shooting across the entirety of Badlands second. You can spam shutter and batts from choke. This video is [b]ten years old.[/b]
If someone were to make a "Loch n Load spam angles" video for the current map pool that would be the final nail. (Assuming it doesn't get banned in the next few days)
yourlocalforecastIf someone were to make a "Loch n Load spam angles" video for the current map pool that would be the final nail. (Assuming it doesn't get banned in the next few days)
https://youtu.be/sYnZXnnb0YY?si=Ej1IQUg899L-DHfy
Also it’s banned : )
If someone were to make a "Loch n Load spam angles" video for the current map pool that would be the final nail. (Assuming it doesn't get banned in the next few days)[/quote]
[youtube]https://youtu.be/sYnZXnnb0YY?si=Ej1IQUg899L-DHfy[/youtube]
Also it’s banned : )
GrapeJuiceIIIAlso it’s banned : )
https://media1.tenor.com/m/PHREyAefRckAAAAd/packwatch.gif
fun fact rgl apparently got about 100 more responses to this particular survey than normal #yourvotematters
Also it’s banned : )[/quote]
[img]https://media1.tenor.com/m/PHREyAefRckAAAAd/packwatch.gif[/img]
fun fact rgl apparently got about 100 more responses to this particular survey than normal #yourvotematters
Now we know that peer pressure works how do we feel about lobbying for 9:30 EST match start times :)
gambleNow we know that peer pressure works how do we feel about lobbying for 9:30 EST match start times :)
crazy what happens when people actually answer the survey instead of complaining on tftv
crazy what happens when people actually answer the survey instead of complaining on tftv
crazy what happens when there's actually a survey with relevant questions
Brimstonecrazy what happens when there's actually a survey with relevant questions
you haven't played since s6 you haven't had to answer a survey in 4 years
you haven't played since s6 you haven't had to answer a survey in 4 years
all i'm hearing is you can't bring yourself to say that complaining on tftv is actually what drives rgl to actually give ppl what they want since it sure as hell seems they can't gather data and take action on it like a normal functional organization
case in point:
https://www.teamfortress.tv/65875/rgl-hl-s22-massive-changes-no-player-feedback
case in point:
https://www.teamfortress.tv/65875/rgl-hl-s22-massive-changes-no-player-feedback
tr15t3ngambleNow we know that peer pressure works how do we feel about lobbying for 9:30 EST match start times :)crazy what happens when people actually answer the survey instead of complaining on tftv
So fun fact the last season I played I actually did mention wanting to change the match time to 9:30 in the survey! Nothing came of it. I asked people who played this season if it was an option this time around and it wasn't, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to?
crazy what happens when people actually answer the survey instead of complaining on tftv[/quote]
So fun fact the last season I played I actually did mention wanting to change the match time to 9:30 in the survey! Nothing came of it. I asked people who played this season if it was an option this time around and it wasn't, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to?
gamble
So fun fact the last season I played I actually did mention wanting to change the match time to 9:30 in the survey! Nothing came of it. I asked people who played this season if it was an option this time around and it wasn't, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to?
If nothing came of it then there wasn’t enough of support for it in responses from the rest of the players. I’ll make sure it is included this time so you can rally your buddies and vote for it.
Brimstoneall i'm hearing is you can't bring yourself to say that complaining on tftv is actually what drives rgl to actually give ppl what they want since it sure as hell seems they can't gather data and take action on it like a normal functional organization
case in point:
https://www.teamfortress.tv/65875/rgl-hl-s22-massive-changes-no-player-feedback
Complaining on tftv does not influence any decision. If we notice something we poll it in the survey and wait for the results. We can’t act on tftv posts because of people like you that love to complain but don’t actually play in forever.
But hey if you want to give the community a voice apply for staff and starting changing stuff based on tftv threads :)
So fun fact the last season I played I actually did mention wanting to change the match time to 9:30 in the survey! Nothing came of it. I asked people who played this season if it was an option this time around and it wasn't, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to?[/quote]
If nothing came of it then there wasn’t enough of support for it in responses from the rest of the players. I’ll make sure it is included this time so you can rally your buddies and vote for it.
[quote=Brimstone]all i'm hearing is you can't bring yourself to say that complaining on tftv is actually what drives rgl to actually give ppl what they want since it sure as hell seems they can't gather data and take action on it like a normal functional organization
case in point:
https://www.teamfortress.tv/65875/rgl-hl-s22-massive-changes-no-player-feedback[/quote]
Complaining on tftv does not influence any decision. If we notice something we poll it in the survey and wait for the results. We can’t act on tftv posts because of people like you that love to complain but don’t actually play in forever.
But hey if you want to give the community a voice apply for staff and starting changing stuff based on tftv threads :)
tr15t3nIf nothing came of it then there wasn’t enough of support for it in responses from the rest of the players. I’ll make sure it is included this time so you can rally your buddies and vote for it.
Sounds great, thanks! I assume this survey will be open to people who didn't play the previous season?
If nothing came of it then there wasn’t enough of support for it in responses from the rest of the players. I’ll make sure it is included this time so you can rally your buddies and vote for it.[/quote]
Sounds great, thanks! I assume this survey will be open to people who didn't play the previous season?
tr15t3nComplaining on tftv does not influence any decision. If we notice something we poll it in the survey and wait for the results.
If the process is:
Complaining on tftv -> staff notice -> staff put on survey -> people vote for it and it gets passed
then I feel like this is just playing semantics to say tftv doesn't influence any decision assuming that staff would not have noticed if nobody complained on tftv. If in a parallel universe this question does not get put on the survey and thus does not get passed because nobody posted on tftv then I would say tftv caused whatever change to occur, an arguably stronger statement.
*This is almost surely not true for highlander (that one time they tried throwing out a playoffs team for "match fixing" but instantly reversed and the time they tried to say guy posting reddit meme = CP) but I assume you are speaking for 6s primarily.
Complaining on tftv does not influence any decision. If we notice something we poll it in the survey and wait for the results. [/quote]
If the process is:
[quote]
Complaining on tftv -> staff notice -> staff put on survey -> people vote for it and it gets passed
[/quote]
then I feel like this is just playing semantics to say tftv doesn't influence any decision assuming that staff would not have noticed if nobody complained on tftv. If in a parallel universe this question does not get put on the survey and thus does not get passed because nobody posted on tftv then I would say tftv caused whatever change to occur, an arguably stronger statement.
[spoiler]Unless I am mistaken and you mean that these questions would have been posted on the survey even if people didn't post on tftv* in which case I would be curious how rgl gauges that sentiment in the first place especially for lower divs. I'm not delusional enough to say tftv is fully representative of 6s but other options that come to my mind (random word of mouth, private discords that staff happen to be in, god forbid people just annoying them with unsolicited dm's) aren't exactly optimal either. An attractive option would probably be to include an open ended question (maybe it's there already idk I can't view it) on the end of season surveys but that has the problem of being only limited to ppl who played the season prior so if you just skip one season but are otherwise an active player you are a little screwed.
*This is almost surely not true for highlander (that one time they tried throwing out a playoffs team for "match fixing" but instantly reversed and the time they tried to say guy posting reddit meme = CP) but I assume you are speaking for 6s primarily. [/spoiler]
springrolls
then I feel like this is just playing semantics to say tftv doesn't influence any decision assuming that staff would not have noticed if nobody complained on tftv. If in a parallel universe this question does not get put on the survey and thus does not get passed because nobody posted on tftv then I would say tftv caused whatever change to occur, an arguably stronger statement.
With the loch specifically, there have been various sources of opinions, the main ones are
- End of season meetings (adv and invite)
- Survey responses (open ended questions at the end asking for any other feedback)
- Tickets in the rgl discord
- Direct discussions either in discord or DMs (not recommended)
- TFTV (not the main source but also considered occasionally)
Speaking for 6s, we do try to take a lot into account but the optimal way to get your feedback across would be the first 3 on the list.
springrollshow rgl gauges that sentiment in the first place especially for lower divs.
Fair, only really rn advanced and invite have end of season meetings due to the smaller div size allowing for easier conversations
springrolss
An attractive option would probably be to include an open ended question (maybe it's there already idk I can't view it
Should always be towards the end of the survey a box where you can say anything you want
then I feel like this is just playing semantics to say tftv doesn't influence any decision assuming that staff would not have noticed if nobody complained on tftv. If in a parallel universe this question does not get put on the survey and thus does not get passed because nobody posted on tftv then I would say tftv caused whatever change to occur, an arguably stronger statement.
[/quote]
With the loch specifically, there have been various sources of opinions, the main ones are
- End of season meetings (adv and invite)
- Survey responses (open ended questions at the end asking for any other feedback)
- Tickets in the rgl discord
- Direct discussions either in discord or DMs (not recommended)
- TFTV (not the main source but also considered occasionally)
Speaking for 6s, we do try to take a lot into account but the optimal way to get your feedback across would be the first 3 on the list.
[quote=springrolls]
how rgl gauges that sentiment in the first place especially for lower divs.
[/quote]
Fair, only really rn advanced and invite have end of season meetings due to the smaller div size allowing for easier conversations
[quote=springrolss]
An attractive option would probably be to include an open ended question (maybe it's there already idk I can't view it
[/quote]
Should always be towards the end of the survey a box where you can say anything you want