Throwing out some food for thought after watching rgl lan to improve playing/watching quality, #1 & #2 should be implemented tomorrow and #3 & #4 could use workshopping.
1.) Sitting in forwards should not be as low risk/high reward as it currently is, at minimum you should be able to physically check if someone is in there such as granary 2nd forwards, and ideally it should force the shutter open and void backspawning.
2.) Spawns on last should all emulate Granary's caution tape and prevent caught players being sucked into spawn by spamming resup/classswap bind.
3.) A little more experimental but once overtime triggers cap speeds on every control point should be sped up by a percentage either prompting more point oriented sacs on last or enticing pushing out of last by easily denying forwards.
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I would also heavily be in favor of somehow penalizing the team that was pushing last into the next round for letting it stalemate
4.) Tilt doors on last 45 degrees allowing sentries to get spammed down easier without having to trade damage as negatively. Tilting the doors would be buffing sniper but honestly I'm ok with it since holding last as it is is very easy.
https://i.imgur.com/R5QLGOf.jpeg
Throwing out some food for thought after watching rgl lan to improve playing/watching quality, #1 & #2 should be implemented tomorrow and #3 & #4 could use workshopping.
1.) Sitting in forwards should not be as low risk/high reward as it currently is, at minimum you should be able to physically check if someone is in there such as granary 2nd forwards, and ideally it should force the shutter open and void backspawning.
2.) Spawns on last should all emulate Granary's caution tape and prevent caught players being sucked into spawn by spamming resup/classswap bind.
3.) A little more experimental but once overtime triggers cap speeds on every control point should be sped up by a percentage either prompting more point oriented sacs on last or enticing pushing out of last by easily denying forwards.
[spoiler]I would also heavily be in favor of somehow penalizing the team that was pushing last into the next round for letting it stalemate[/spoiler]
4.) Tilt doors on last 45 degrees allowing sentries to get spammed down easier without having to trade damage as negatively. Tilting the doors would be buffing sniper but honestly I'm ok with it since holding last as it is is very easy.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/R5QLGOf.jpeg[/img]
weeb_whacker4.) Tilt doors on last 45 degrees allowing sentries to get spammed down easier without having to trade damage as negatively. The tilting the doors would be buffing sniper but honestly I'm ok with it since holding last as it is is very easy.
https://i.imgur.com/R5QLGOf.jpeg
I agree that we should try this, especially on sultry's left-side door into last from the attacking POV. Someone needs to take over sultry and update it since I'm pretty sure the creator quit
On sultry last there should also be a permanent ledge in the sky on the left side (from the attacking POV), like where soldiers are currently jumping up to spam the gun. If there were a ledge there, it would eliminate the most broken sentry spots without creating a new sniper sightline. I think there should also be something like this for snakewater, but I don't know how you would implement it.
[quote=weeb_whacker]4.) Tilt doors on last 45 degrees allowing sentries to get spammed down easier without having to trade damage as negatively. The tilting the doors would be buffing sniper but honestly I'm ok with it since holding last as it is is very easy.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/R5QLGOf.jpeg[/img][/quote]I agree that we should try this, especially on sultry's left-side door into last from the attacking POV. Someone needs to take over sultry and update it since I'm pretty sure the creator quit
On sultry last there should also be a permanent ledge in the sky on the left side (from the attacking POV), like where soldiers are currently jumping up to spam the gun. If there were a ledge there, it would eliminate the most broken sentry spots without creating a new sniper sightline. I think there should also be something like this for snakewater, but I don't know how you would implement it.
+1 to the idea of making Spawns a little more like Granary, its way too easy at the moment to abuse resup binds.
I'm not too sure on #3 or #4 as they are much more wide sweeping changes which would require a lot more effort. If we want to increase viewability and improve the quality of matches I would be looking more into iterating the ruleset than revamping maps.
I think it would be useful to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the current 5cp ruleset and continuous overtime. I have seen a more positive reception to CO since the Unity Cup, but some of the glaring faults still remain. Namely the indefinite timepool being a significant disruption to tournament schedules, which creates difficult discussions around either having less matches or risk overrunning. Additionally from a viewing experience (based on the Global Clan vs Froyo 76 minute Sultry match) it can get very tedious watching two teams play super passive for 30+ minutes after overtime begins, and I know that it can be exhausting from the players to come off a marathon BO3 and then only have 15 minutes before the next series, and CO was a key contributor to some of this at Physgun Denver.
Again, I think that matches ending on a round win is nice and the comeback potential creates interesting matches. But as an organiser, without significant changes to that ruleset I simply do not see myself choosing Overtime over Golden Cap currently for Weekend Cups/LANs. League play is a different ball entirely.
+1 to the idea of making Spawns a little more like Granary, its way too easy at the moment to abuse resup binds.
I'm not too sure on #3 or #4 as they are much more wide sweeping changes which would require a lot more effort. If we want to increase viewability and improve the quality of matches I would be looking more into iterating the ruleset than revamping maps.
I think it would be useful to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the current 5cp ruleset and continuous overtime. I have seen a more positive reception to CO since the Unity Cup, but some of the glaring faults still remain. Namely the indefinite timepool being a significant disruption to tournament schedules, which creates difficult discussions around either having less matches or risk overrunning. Additionally from a viewing experience (based on the Global Clan vs Froyo 76 minute Sultry match) it can get very tedious watching two teams play super passive for 30+ minutes after overtime begins, and I know that it can be exhausting from the players to come off a marathon BO3 and then only have 15 minutes before the next series, and CO was a key contributor to some of this at Physgun Denver.
Again, I think that matches ending on a round win is nice and the comeback potential creates interesting matches. But as an organiser, without significant changes to that ruleset I simply do not see myself choosing Overtime over Golden Cap currently for Weekend Cups/LANs. League play is a different ball entirely.
wont this just end up with a soldier wallbugging over the doorway shooting down
wont this just end up with a soldier wallbugging over the doorway shooting down
Agree 100% on resup binds. Honestly would be in favour of removing them entirely, but I know that this isn't entirely feasible (since class swap binds would have almost the same effect beyond losing uber as medic or buildings as engie). The suggestion of the granary tape is good and imo all current rotation 5cp maps should add it.
DrHappinessI think it would be useful to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the current 5cp ruleset and continuous overtime.
One other rogue idea for a config that prevents unlimited-length games is as follows:
- Map time limit starts at 25 mins, win limit 5
- After the 15 minute mark, any time a round is scored the map timer increases by 2.5 mins
- If scores tied when timer hits zero, play golden cap and golden mid if needed
Open to suggestions for the exact time amounts used, but this way you keep some of the benefits of CO (no garbage time and teams who are behind have a chance to come back) without having the possibility for arbitarily-long games. Ofc doesn't fix everything with the ETF2L ruleset, namely that teams can still stalemate to win, or that not every game ends on a round win, but I believe removing those issues will require us to allow unlimited-length games and that brings about many new problems.
Agree 100% on resup binds. Honestly would be in favour of removing them entirely, but I know that this isn't entirely feasible (since class swap binds would have almost the same effect beyond losing uber as medic or buildings as engie). The suggestion of the granary tape is good and imo all current rotation 5cp maps should add it.
[quote=DrHappiness]I think it would be useful to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the current 5cp ruleset and continuous overtime.[/quote]
One other rogue idea for a config that prevents unlimited-length games is as follows:
- Map time limit starts at 25 mins, win limit 5
- After the 15 minute mark, any time a round is scored the map timer increases by 2.5 mins
- If scores tied when timer hits zero, play golden cap and golden mid if needed
Open to suggestions for the exact time amounts used, but this way you keep some of the benefits of CO (no garbage time and teams who are behind have a chance to come back) without having the possibility for arbitarily-long games. Ofc doesn't fix everything with the ETF2L ruleset, namely that teams can still stalemate to win, or that not every game ends on a round win, but I believe removing those issues will require us to allow unlimited-length games and that brings about many new problems.
You could also put the granary caution tape on all forward spawns so snipers will actually risk dying when going for a shot
You could also put the granary caution tape on all forward spawns so snipers will actually risk dying when going for a shot
Brimstonewont this just end up with a soldier wallbugging over the doorway shooting down
yea, and?
[quote=Brimstone]wont this just end up with a soldier wallbugging over the doorway shooting down[/quote]
yea, and?
respawn binding and spamming as soon as you're any level of caught has been such a game changer since it became a mainstream feature of 6s, but it's so shitty to push against, esp on process and sunshine, which are also the two most popular maps in the pool (at least for pugging)
shifting the goalposts for how easy it is to take advantage of the ridiculous sightlines on those maps with zero consequence makes it hard for me to say that it's healthy for the game, even if it's been around for so long that it's become central to a lot of holding strategies on those maps and is considered QOL by most
respawn binding and spamming as soon as you're any level of caught has been such a game changer since it became a mainstream feature of 6s, but it's so shitty to push against, esp on process and sunshine, which are also the two most popular maps in the pool (at least for pugging)
shifting the goalposts for how easy it is to take advantage of the ridiculous sightlines on those maps with zero consequence makes it hard for me to say that it's healthy for the game, even if it's been around for so long that it's become central to a lot of holding strategies on those maps and is considered QOL by most
definitely agree with #1 and #2
I actually like the dynamic of forwards play, paying attention to spawners, chooseing to stack, or spawncamping but sniper is just fucking stupid especially when you have no way to actually clear them if they hold the door closed and get called for their peek. I don't think opening it up and voiding backspawns are an option though since a spawncamp on what would just be just one spawn wave could be turned into another guaranteed team wipe if the cap gets delayed for spawns first.
It's really unsatisfying to miss out on a kill that got banny-binded away and the granary vestibule unambiguously fixes the issue way cleaner than any action on banny binds as a whole would. I'd love to see maps tested with these areas since its easy to add to any map. My concern is more for the interaction itself rather than the balance of last pushes so if it makes pushing last too easy thats an issue that can get resolved separately
definitely agree with #1 and #2
I actually like the dynamic of forwards play, paying attention to spawners, chooseing to stack, or spawncamping but sniper is just fucking stupid especially when you have no way to actually clear them if they hold the door closed and get called for their peek. I don't think opening it up and voiding backspawns are an option though since a spawncamp on what would just be just one spawn wave could be turned into another guaranteed team wipe if the cap gets delayed for spawns first.
It's really unsatisfying to miss out on a kill that got banny-binded away and the granary vestibule unambiguously fixes the issue way cleaner than any action on banny binds as a whole would. I'd love to see maps tested with these areas since its easy to add to any map. My concern is more for the interaction itself rather than the balance of last pushes so if it makes pushing last too easy thats an issue that can get resolved separately
do 1+2 & this
papiYou could also put the granary caution tape on all forward spawns so snipers will actually risk dying when going for a shot
also someone please fix sultry last it's boring and bad, actually ruins the map
do 1+2 & this
[quote=papi]You could also put the granary caution tape on all forward spawns so snipers will actually risk dying when going for a shot[/quote]
also someone please fix sultry last it's boring and bad, actually ruins the map
botmodealso someone please fix sultry last it's boring and bad, actually ruins the map
WHAT!? are you crazy? we love watching the same map go on for 2 hours and then getting a pause!
[quote=botmode]
also someone please fix sultry last it's boring and bad, actually ruins the map[/quote]
WHAT!? are you crazy? we love watching the same map go on for 2 hours and then getting a pause!
HandymanPyrobotmodealso someone please fix sultry last it's boring and bad, actually ruins the map
WHAT!? are you crazy? we love watching the same map go on for 2 hours and then getting a pause!
i enjoy playing sultry because it's new and playing snakewater process and metalworks for 10 years has worn on my soul. i do not enjoy playing sultry because it is comically easy to defend.
on the subject of game time, the majority of the lasts in 6s are too easy to defend currently. Gully is kind of the only map where the defenders don't actually have a positional advantage even with offclasses. Part of this is definitely spawns being too strong (process) but part of it is just map design (metal, snake, sultry)
[quote=HandymanPyro][quote=botmode]
also someone please fix sultry last it's boring and bad, actually ruins the map[/quote]
WHAT!? are you crazy? we love watching the same map go on for 2 hours and then getting a pause![/quote]
i enjoy playing sultry because it's new and playing snakewater process and metalworks for 10 years has worn on my soul. i do not enjoy playing sultry because it is comically easy to defend.
on the subject of game time, the majority of the lasts in 6s are too easy to defend currently. Gully is kind of the only map where the defenders don't actually have a positional advantage even with offclasses. Part of this is definitely spawns being too strong (process) but part of it is just map design (metal, snake, sultry)
I think we should consider unbanning bonk. It's not that good outside of tanking a sentry, which would help with attacking last. The original reason it got banned was because people thought it would be too easy to go behind, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong and it doesn't make going behind way easier.
I think we should consider unbanning bonk. It's not that good outside of tanking a sentry, which would help with attacking last. The original reason it got banned was because people thought it would be too easy to go behind, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong and it doesn't make going behind way easier.
JwI think we should consider unbanning bonk. It's not that good outside of tanking a sentry, which would help with attacking last. The original reason it got banned was because people thought it would be too easy to go behind, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong and it doesn't make going behind way easier.
please do not allow bonk you would have minimum of 2 scouts using it full time on every map. you drink it for info, sacs, before pushes to take space and getting out randomly after running to a fun guaranteed death position. It only sucks if your whole team is dead so you have nothing to back off to.
[quote=Jw]I think we should consider unbanning bonk. It's not that good outside of tanking a sentry, which would help with attacking last. The original reason it got banned was because people thought it would be too easy to go behind, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong and it doesn't make going behind way easier.[/quote]
please do not allow bonk you would have minimum of 2 scouts using it full time on every map. you drink it for info, sacs, before pushes to take space and getting out randomly after running to a fun guaranteed death position. It only sucks if your whole team is dead so you have nothing to back off to.
Please someone edit snakewater last. That map has been by far the worst 5cp in the rotation for a while now because last is so hard to push into
Please someone edit snakewater last. That map has been by far the worst 5cp in the rotation for a while now because last is so hard to push into
give snake last a death pit
give snake last a death pit
JwI think we should consider unbanning bonk. It's not that good outside of tanking a sentry, which would help with attacking last. The original reason it got banned was because people thought it would be too easy to go behind, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong and it doesn't make going behind way easier.
have you considered letting GMK call his bomb on mid
[quote=Jw]I think we should consider unbanning bonk. It's not that good outside of tanking a sentry, which would help with attacking last. The original reason it got banned was because people thought it would be too easy to go behind, but I'm pretty sure that's just wrong and it doesn't make going behind way easier.[/quote]
have you considered letting GMK call his bomb on mid