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i69: Day 3 - Finals
posted in Events
31
#31
1 Frags +
botmodeblaming reduced round timer and not backpacks, snake/gran last being too powerful of a defense and froyo not having good sac protocols on snake/gran and over committing to pushes then not punishing the lack of pushouts, wG got super punished for it on gully. you can legit hold snake last for 10 minutes easy and granary is very doable. 35% DR on a weapon that works better and easier when defending than attacking, actually in disbelief no one is talking about this lol l m a o

would rather watch another midfight than 5 more minutes of stalemate, bad take calling round timer bad

I remember back when people used to try and convince me that gully last was one of the harder lasts to push

Oh how the turntables

[quote=botmode]blaming reduced round timer and not backpacks, snake/gran last being too powerful of a defense and froyo not having good sac protocols on snake/gran and over committing to pushes then not punishing the lack of pushouts, wG got super punished for it on gully. you can legit hold snake last for 10 minutes easy and granary is very doable. 35% DR on a weapon that works better and easier when defending than attacking, actually in disbelief no one is talking about this lol l m a o

would rather watch another midfight than 5 more minutes of stalemate, bad take calling round timer bad[/quote]

I remember back when people used to try and convince me that gully last was one of the harder lasts to push

Oh how the turntables
32
#32
-13 Frags +

yet another lan where the entirety of europe proves again they are completely incapable of playing the game. color me surprised.

mustardoverlord

also disagree. the problem lies with the community not solving these issues, it's only recently people are starting to get serious about their sacs and finally 3-4 manning. if either froyo's real roster or g6 showed up every team wouldve gotten 5-0d, especially when theres pubbers pushing out of last on pyro and heavy.

the meta is very unoptimized.

yet another lan where the entirety of europe proves again they are completely incapable of playing the game. color me surprised.

[quote=mustardoverlord][/quote]
also disagree. the problem lies with the community not solving these issues, it's only recently people are starting to get serious about their sacs and finally 3-4 manning. if either froyo's real roster or g6 showed up every team wouldve gotten 5-0d, especially when theres pubbers pushing out of last on pyro and heavy.

the meta is very unoptimized.
33
#33
5 Frags +

Who even won and are there logs? I'm guessing froyo but I'm on vacation with shit internet can't watch stream and toornament page never got updated.

Who even won and are there logs? I'm guessing froyo but I'm on vacation with shit internet can't watch stream and toornament page never got updated.
34
#34
7 Frags +
botmodeblaming reduced round timer and not backpacks, snake/gran last being too powerful of a defense and froyo not having good sac protocols on snake/gran and over committing to pushes then not punishing the lack of pushouts, wG got super punished for it on gully. you can legit hold snake last for 10 minutes easy and granary is very doable. 35% DR on a weapon that works better and easier when defending than attacking, actually in disbelief no one is talking about this lol l m a o

would rather watch another midfight than 5 more minutes of stalemate, bad take calling round timer bad

idk, if gully is the only map that can reasonably have the last broken with a decent amount of consistency within 5 minutes, are the maps to blame or the round timer. ur right that u COULD hold gran and snake for 10 too but its wayyyy harder than for just 5 minutes. also very right about banners and the others in the thread bringing up engy/pyro are very right too i m o. sniper and pootis r cool cus they take skill but engy n pyro r way too low skill for how effective they are. we are 2 sides of the same coin brother but either we need more breakable lasts like gully or go back to 10 min and play the lasts we have. that or just block engy + other dumb hnlocks and play a dynamic game where holding ur last is perilous is hell. game seems to have compound issues and the 5 min timer is just a band aid, one that makes other parts of the game even uglier

[quote=botmode]blaming reduced round timer and not backpacks, snake/gran last being too powerful of a defense and froyo not having good sac protocols on snake/gran and over committing to pushes then not punishing the lack of pushouts, wG got super punished for it on gully. you can legit hold snake last for 10 minutes easy and granary is very doable. 35% DR on a weapon that works better and easier when defending than attacking, actually in disbelief no one is talking about this lol l m a o

would rather watch another midfight than 5 more minutes of stalemate, bad take calling round timer bad[/quote]

idk, if gully is the only map that can reasonably have the last broken with a decent amount of consistency within 5 minutes, are the maps to blame or the round timer. ur right that u COULD hold gran and snake for 10 too but its wayyyy harder than for just 5 minutes. also very right about banners and the others in the thread bringing up engy/pyro are very right too i m o. sniper and pootis r cool cus they take skill but engy n pyro r way too low skill for how effective they are. we are 2 sides of the same coin brother but either we need more breakable lasts like gully or go back to 10 min and play the lasts we have. that or just block engy + other dumb hnlocks and play a dynamic game where holding ur last is perilous is hell. game seems to have compound issues and the 5 min timer is just a band aid, one that makes other parts of the game even uglier
35
#35
19 Frags +

There's a direct comparison in match quality when you look at the RGL LAN Losers Bracket of NA Witness vs. Froyo and the EU Witness vs. Froyo. Both Granary and Snakewater were played in those matches. Both Witness teams lost those games, but NA didn't park the bus when they were losing and start throwing by going Huntsman. Even if EUWitness was playing it safe, Froyo CONSTANTLY sacked Paddie, Arekk, and Jay at the same time that it's baffling how WG didn't adapt after the fifth time it happened and get ready for a soldier sack into lobby.

And this wasn't due to fear of Froyo, Witness vs. TF2Easy had multiple games end in stalemates during their losers bracket. If Witness wasn't going to push out when they were down 0-1 with 7 minutes left on the server timer, I can't imagine them doing so with a new round timer. I still want the new round timer implemented in future games, but even if they ran it during this LAN, I think EU would've still parked the bus. It's just how they've played for so long and it's going to be awhile before they catch up to the better meta.

There's a direct comparison in match quality when you look at the RGL LAN Losers Bracket of NA Witness vs. Froyo and the EU Witness vs. Froyo. Both Granary and Snakewater were played in those matches. Both Witness teams lost those games, but NA didn't park the bus when they were losing and start throwing by going Huntsman. Even if EUWitness was playing it safe, Froyo CONSTANTLY sacked Paddie, Arekk, and Jay at the same time that it's baffling how WG didn't adapt after the fifth time it happened and get ready for a soldier sack into lobby.

And this wasn't due to fear of Froyo, Witness vs. TF2Easy had multiple games end in stalemates during their losers bracket. If Witness wasn't going to push out when they were down 0-1 with 7 minutes left on the server timer, I can't imagine them doing so with a new round timer. I still want the new round timer implemented in future games, but even if they ran it during this LAN, I think EU would've still parked the bus. It's just how they've played for so long and it's going to be awhile before they catch up to the better meta.
36
#36
14 Frags +
ninjanickWho even won and are there logs? I'm guessing froyo but I'm on vacation with shit internet can't watch stream and toornament page never got updated.

Froyo 3-1

Product - https://logs.tf/3258192
Snakewater - https://logs.tf/3258492
Gullywash - https://logs.tf/3258284
Granary - https://logs.tf/3258318

[quote=ninjanick]Who even won and are there logs? I'm guessing froyo but I'm on vacation with shit internet can't watch stream and toornament page never got updated.[/quote]

Froyo 3-1

Product - https://logs.tf/3258192
Snakewater - https://logs.tf/3258492
Gullywash - https://logs.tf/3258284
Granary - https://logs.tf/3258318
37
#37
14 Frags +

considering that they did 5 min round resets multiple times in a row seems pretty obvious that they could do it with a 10 min timer. like if u can hold last for 5 min, reset to mid, lose mid, then hold last for another 5 that is basically the same as just holding last for 10

considering that they did 5 min round resets multiple times in a row seems pretty obvious that they could do it with a 10 min timer. like if u can hold last for 5 min, reset to mid, lose mid, then hold last for another 5 that is basically the same as just holding last for 10
38
#38
41 Frags +

I don't know how you can blame the ruleset when NA just had 3 LANs in a row where it was used (with entertaining/fun results). Also worth noting that at the RGL LAN g6 and froyo were incredibly close, similar to i69 froyo and EU wg. It's abundantly clear that the reason there were so many stalemates were that EU wg were unwilling make moves off of their last when given good opportunities, as well as froyo having a harder time breaking stalemates on granary and snake.

I don't know how you can blame the ruleset when NA just had 3 LANs in a row where it was used (with entertaining/fun results). Also worth noting that at the RGL LAN g6 and froyo were incredibly close, similar to i69 froyo and EU wg. It's abundantly clear that the reason there were so many stalemates were that EU wg were unwilling make moves off of their last when given good opportunities, as well as froyo having a harder time breaking stalemates on granary and snake.
39
#39
tf2pickup.org
5 Frags +

honestly it was way more fun to watch froyo than eu wG playing because wG was trying to play the safest game possible and froyo instead was risking way more and that's literally why they won
i felt there was a lot of similiarities in how wG have played to se7en cuz they were always choking and waiting for someone's move too i think
its mindblowing for me how a team does not push when there is enough time to push, froyo failed a 3 man sack and there is no willingness to press W
ixy should get an engineer of the competition award for setting up perfect sentries on snakewater, i had a feeling before watching logs that he spent more time on engie than scout
was fun to see highlander gimmicks like heavy on mid trying to deny a bomb on product, pyro push on gully last or getting an engi pick for way easier push

edit: reconsidering banning banners with prem gamers on etf2l before the next season seems what we must do now

honestly it was way more fun to watch froyo than eu wG playing because wG was trying to play the safest game possible and froyo instead was risking way more and that's literally why they won
i felt there was a lot of similiarities in how wG have played to se7en cuz they were always choking and waiting for someone's move too i think
its mindblowing for me how a team does not push when there is enough time to push, froyo failed a 3 man sack and there is no willingness to press W
ixy should get an engineer of the competition award for setting up perfect sentries on snakewater, i had a feeling before watching logs that he spent more time on engie than scout
was fun to see highlander gimmicks like heavy on mid trying to deny a bomb on product, pyro push on gully last or getting an engi pick for way easier push

edit: reconsidering banning banners with prem gamers on etf2l before the next season seems what we must do now
40
#40
-30 Frags +

posts 35 37 and 38 written by drooling noobs. lol.

posts 35 37 and 38 written by drooling noobs. lol.
41
#41
4 Frags +

Maps were close, was good grand final. Never seen froyo start sweating like they did on product but jay showed up. Hopefully banners (all 3 but if not at least just batallions) are banned now since they been proven to be almost as good as an uber. Habib do be hitting a 14 damage sticky on a heavy.

Unlocks and offclasses have a larger effect on this playstyle working than round timer however this whole playstyle of parking the bus works better with shorter round timer since you get more coinflip chances for midfights. If you only had 2 midfights in a map, it's reasonable to not win a single one. if you get 5 midfights, it's pretty unlikely to not win a single one (1/4 chance vs 1/32 chance). Witness didn't used to play like this because it wasn't as strong as a playstyle as it is now. It used to be better to actually keep making plays when ahead as overall it would slow down the enemy more even if you only hit 1/3 of the plays, and then if you are behind you would get back into the game by making proactive plays.

Will also add that it's only really correct to push off of last if you will get the mid point. No point in just pushing to get second with a disadvantage since you could always just round reset and not go to mid and have even ubers on second. I think people don't understand that.

Maps were close, was good grand final. Never seen froyo start sweating like they did on product but jay showed up. Hopefully banners (all 3 but if not at least just batallions) are banned now since they been proven to be almost as good as an uber. Habib do be hitting a 14 damage sticky on a heavy.

Unlocks and offclasses have a larger effect on this playstyle working than round timer however this whole playstyle of parking the bus works better with shorter round timer since you get more coinflip chances for midfights. If you only had 2 midfights in a map, it's reasonable to not win a single one. if you get 5 midfights, it's pretty unlikely to not win a single one (1/4 chance vs 1/32 chance). Witness didn't used to play like this because it wasn't as strong as a playstyle as it is now. It used to be better to actually keep making plays when ahead as overall it would slow down the enemy more even if you only hit 1/3 of the plays, and then if you are behind you would get back into the game by making proactive plays.

Will also add that it's only really correct to push off of last if you will get the mid point. No point in just pushing to get second with a disadvantage since you could always just round reset and not go to mid and have even ubers on second. I think people don't understand that.
42
#42
11 Frags +
supraixy should get an engineer of the competition award for setting up perfect sentries on snakewater, i had a feeling before watching logs that he spent more time on engie than scout

Ixy is the flank scout I've always respected the most and I was quite happy for him when witness picked him up because an experienced top team to play with is what he needed to elevate to the next level. It's a shame that he was getting relegated to sentry duty in that match even though he has got a wide and diverse set of skills they could take advantage of

[quote=supra]
ixy should get an engineer of the competition award for setting up perfect sentries on snakewater, i had a feeling before watching logs that he spent more time on engie than scout
[/quote]

Ixy is the flank scout I've always respected the most and I was quite happy for him when witness picked him up because an experienced top team to play with is what he needed to elevate to the next level. It's a shame that he was getting relegated to sentry duty in that match even though he has got a wide and diverse set of skills they could take advantage of
43
#43
21 Frags +
Makposts 35 37 and 38 written by drooling noobs. lol.

https://i.ibb.co/LCPYMs6/Untitled.png

[quote=Mak]posts 35 37 and 38 written by drooling noobs. lol.[/quote]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/LCPYMs6/Untitled.png[/img]
44
#44
23 Frags +

wG seemed to play the safest possible playstyle they could, since it gave them the best chance of winning. I can't knock wanting to win at all. But you can't say it wasn't incredibly boring to watch as a viewer.

wG seemed to play the safest possible playstyle they could, since it gave them the best chance of winning. I can't knock wanting to win at all. But you can't say it wasn't incredibly boring to watch as a viewer.
45
#45
-1 Frags +
DoughyHabib do be hitting a 14 damage sticky on a heavy.

is there a clip with habib noises for that? sounds like it could be funny af

[quote=Doughy]Habib do be hitting a 14 damage sticky on a heavy.[/quote]
is there a clip with habib noises for that? sounds like it could be funny af
46
#46
16 Frags +

froyo fail 10 full ad last pushes on snake.
americans:

https://i.imgur.com/LiMaR6o_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand

WITNESS GAMING SO SLOW!!!

froyo fail 10 full ad last pushes on snake.
americans:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/LiMaR6o_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand[/img] WITNESS GAMING SO SLOW!!!
47
#47
-16 Frags +
Unicorn_WizardwG seemed to play the safest possible playstyle they could, since it gave them the best chance of winning. I can't knock wanting to win at all. But you can't say it wasn't incredibly boring to watch as a viewer.

first sane american take (ok along with botmode too). its completley okay to not like watching it but dont pretend it isnt effective. yes there were some misapplications of that way of playing but point stands that with current whitelist and class selection options PLUS 5 min round timer this is what u get if u want to win. maybe i sound retarded for that considering they DIDNT win but yea.

[quote=Unicorn_Wizard]wG seemed to play the safest possible playstyle they could, since it gave them the best chance of winning. I can't knock wanting to win at all. But you can't say it wasn't incredibly boring to watch as a viewer.[/quote]

first sane american take (ok along with botmode too). its completley okay to not like watching it but dont pretend it isnt effective. yes there were some misapplications of that way of playing but point stands that with current whitelist and class selection options PLUS 5 min round timer this is what u get if u want to win. maybe i sound retarded for that considering they DIDNT win but yea.
48
#48
7 Frags +
ninjanick (...) toornament page never got updated.

terrible admining

[quote=ninjanick] (...) toornament page never got updated.[/quote]

terrible admining
49
#49
12 Frags +
BuildBruhDoughyHabib do be hitting a 14 damage sticky on a heavy.is there a clip with habib noises for that? sounds like it could be funny af

No reaction since was on main stream but found the moment

https://clips.twitch.tv/BeautifulGleamingSwordSpicyBoy-dqO_lS1WqRkbs_Xc

[quote=BuildBruh][quote=Doughy]Habib do be hitting a 14 damage sticky on a heavy.[/quote]
is there a clip with habib noises for that? sounds like it could be funny af[/quote]

No reaction since was on main stream but found the moment

https://clips.twitch.tv/BeautifulGleamingSwordSpicyBoy-dqO_lS1WqRkbs_Xc
50
#50
54 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/CdBXu0g.jpg

[img]https://i.imgur.com/CdBXu0g.jpg[/img]
51
#51
-4 Frags +

i'm impressed that no one touched on the fact that wG is 4-month-old. As an infant team i would not expect them to play as synchronized as 4G. Choosing their fight seems the better choice to me, unknowledging their team disadvantage.
Additionally, I would like to mention a super exciting (for me) banner push from 2nd to mid in snakewater after an uber exchange by wG. That seemed quite a good & unexpected push, showing that banners can improve offensive strats as well

plus: i guess i am the only one that sometimes likes seeing stalemates and how teams try to work around them lel

EDIT: to be fair what I take the most from this finals is that KotH need to be extended. It is by far the most exciting & nerve-wracking mode. While having other disadvantages, it surely cannot be as slow as CP.
koth_bagel >> koth_product prove me wrong.

i'm impressed that no one touched on the fact that wG is 4-month-old. As an infant team i would not expect them to play as synchronized as 4G. Choosing their fight seems the better choice to me, unknowledging their team disadvantage.
Additionally, I would like to mention a super exciting (for me) banner push from 2nd to mid in snakewater after an uber exchange by wG. That seemed quite a good & unexpected push, showing that banners can improve offensive strats as well

plus: i guess i am the only one that sometimes likes seeing stalemates and how teams try to work around them lel

EDIT: to be fair what I take the most from this finals is that KotH need to be extended. It is by far the most exciting & nerve-wracking mode. While having other disadvantages, it surely cannot be as slow as CP.
koth_bagel >> koth_product prove me wrong.
52
#52
-2 Frags +

https://clips.twitch.tv/RelentlessClumsyBisonBigBrother-hkxEp5bVB5xU0fmC

https://clips.twitch.tv/RelentlessClumsyBisonBigBrother-hkxEp5bVB5xU0fmC
53
#53
ETF2L
7 Frags +
DCSninjanick (...) toornament page never got updated.
terrible admining

Agreed, one of the admins walked out after 3 maps

[quote=DCS][quote=ninjanick] (...) toornament page never got updated.[/quote]

terrible admining[/quote]
Agreed, one of the admins walked out after 3 maps
54
#54
7 Frags +
cirloi'm impressed that no one touched on the fact that wG is 4-month-old. As an infant team i would not expect them to play as synchronized as 4G.

Prob because Froyo had 3 roster changes in around a month with 2 washed players:

Mirrorman out; Jay to Pocket, Arrek to fscout
Marmaloo out; Paddie to roamer

[quote=cirlo]i'm impressed that no one touched on the fact that wG is 4-month-old. As an infant team i would not expect them to play as synchronized as 4G. [/quote]

Prob because Froyo had 3 roster changes in around a month with 2 washed players:

Mirrorman out; Jay to Pocket, Arrek to fscout
Marmaloo out; Paddie to roamer
55
#55
0 Frags +
Gaz

It's a shame your team doesn't make you play scout, you might have actually beat us.

[quote=Gaz][/quote]
It's a shame your team doesn't make you play scout, you might have actually beat us.
56
#56
27 Frags +
DomoCatFaceGazIt's a shame your team doesn't make you play scout, you might have actually beat us.

We scrimmed froyo because we were worried they will never come back and this is our last chance.

Seeing the grand finals, I think we made the right choice.

[quote=DomoCatFace][quote=Gaz][/quote]
It's a shame your team doesn't make you play scout, you might have actually beat us.[/quote]
We scrimmed froyo because we were worried they will never come back and this is our last chance.

Seeing the grand finals, I think we made the right choice.
57
#57
18 Frags +

this shit is so lame

this shit is so lame
58
#58
-15 Frags +

Lmfao

Lmfao
59
#59
7 Frags +

congratulations to all of the players of the tournament

congratulations to all of the players of the tournament
60
#60
7 Frags +

a 30 second round timer after mids would've fixed this!

a 30 second round timer after mids would've fixed this!
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