Upvote Upvoted 22 Downvote Downvoted
1 2 3 4
iron bomber fix when?
31
#31
42 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/rqIsJE8.png

[img]https://i.imgur.com/rqIsJE8.png[/img]
32
#32
8 Frags +
capnnofapn mustardoverlord said the same thing in another thread and I'd like an explanation of why this is the case. I can see this being true because your soldiers are usually the ones who get your team into a situation where you can start winning but I want your take on it.

I cant explain why, i can tell u that it is da case that at the top level teams r mostly differentiated by how in sync their soldiers are as a pair and with the rest of their team. Well i guess obviously the why of it is that better cohesion = kill enemy team faster and rotate around map faster than they can. As well as making HARMONIOUS decisions because u all have similar view on game - no baiting or unexpected pushes/ubers/fights etc.

this isnt to say u cant scout diff another prem team or that scouts are irrelevant, but i think the past 5~ years of sub prem soldier mains crying about scout class is da worst shit to listen to

[quote=capnnofapn] mustardoverlord said the same thing in another thread and I'd like an explanation of why this is the case. I can see this being true because your soldiers are usually the ones who get your team into a situation where you can start winning but I want your take on it.[/quote]

I cant explain why, i can tell u that it [i]is[/i] da case that at the top level teams r mostly differentiated by how in sync their soldiers are as a pair and with the rest of their team. Well i guess obviously the why of it is that better cohesion = kill enemy team faster and rotate around map faster than they can. As well as making HARMONIOUS decisions because u all have similar view on game - no baiting or unexpected pushes/ubers/fights etc.

this isnt to say u cant scout diff another prem team or that scouts are irrelevant, but i think the past 5~ years of sub prem soldier mains crying about scout class is da worst shit to listen to
33
#33
8 Frags +

i dont really have a strong opinion on the appropriate hitbox size either way i just want to be able to tell whether a pipe is going to hit me or not by using my eyes

if iron bomber pipes were the size of cannonballs then fighting demos would feel a lot less random

i dont really have a strong opinion on the appropriate hitbox size either way i just want to be able to tell whether a pipe is going to hit me or not by using my eyes

if iron bomber pipes were the size of cannonballs then fighting demos would feel a lot less random
34
#34
22 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/vn3i5j9.png

People genuinely think this is the pipes fault.

I would love for someone to create a plugin that checks if an iron bomber pipe that hit would have hit if it had the stock hitbox. I'd imagine it's like 95% of shots would have hit just the same on stock, if not more. Even if I'm wrong and it gives a tangible benefit, at least the people who are complaining would have data to back themselves up with.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/vn3i5j9.png[/img]

People genuinely think this is the pipes fault.

I would love for someone to create a plugin that checks if an iron bomber pipe that hit would have hit if it had the stock hitbox. I'd imagine it's like 95% of shots would have hit just the same on stock, if not more. Even if I'm wrong and it gives a tangible benefit, at least the people who are complaining would have data to back themselves up with.
35
#35
18 Frags +
PheaaI would love for someone to create a plugin that checks if an iron bomber pipe that hit would have hit if it had the stock hitbox. I'd imagine it's like 95% of shots would have hit just the same on stock, if not more. Even if I'm wrong and it gives a tangible benefit, at least the people who are complaining would have data to back themselves up with.

https://i.gyazo.com/76da23eac1ccd114e2bcb6db953d4322.png

I'm not sure why you'd need a plugin to prove that the iron bomber, a weapon with clear statistical advantage over the regular pipe launcher, gives you a tangible benefit. Even if that were true and 95% of the iron bomber shots would've hit anyway, when factoring in how many pipes demos shoot, from spam to deliberately shot pipes, 5% is quite a lot. If this plugin existed, you could easily find game-changing moments where a bomber clips a medic in the heel as they run away. It seems like a silly way to prove some sort of advantage especially when you've already admitted it has an advantage. And this is only one of the advantages the weapon has over the stock. Same hitbox size between the two and I think the iron bomber is still better than arbitrary rollers that are easier to identify and play around, but I guess that's close enough that it could be considered a sidegrade.

My argument would simply be that the iron bomber has a very silly and avoidable bug that is ignored, despite having a fix already available. And that begs the question of whether or not demo needs that buff. The counter to demo's incredible damage output has been to close distance, which I'd argue is definitely harder with 118.75% wider collision bounds. I think a better "own" to the iron bomber haters would be to simply use twiiku's fix and maintain the exact same level of accuracy and effectiveness, so we can all be sure that everything is operating as intended :)

I think the conversation is way past whether or not it's advantageous. It very clearly is and that's really not arguable. At this point if you're not going to implement the fix or ban the weapon the argument has to be that demo needs the slight buff.

[quote=Pheaa]I would love for someone to create a plugin that checks if an iron bomber pipe that hit would have hit if it had the stock hitbox. I'd imagine it's like 95% of shots would have hit just the same on stock, if not more. Even if I'm wrong and it gives a tangible benefit, at least the people who are complaining would have data to back themselves up with.[/quote]

[img]https://i.gyazo.com/76da23eac1ccd114e2bcb6db953d4322.png[/img]

I'm not sure why you'd need a plugin to prove that the iron bomber, a weapon with clear statistical advantage over the regular pipe launcher, gives you a tangible benefit. Even if that were true and 95% of the iron bomber shots would've hit anyway, when factoring in how many pipes demos shoot, from spam to deliberately shot pipes, 5% is quite a lot. If this plugin existed, you could easily find game-changing moments where a bomber clips a medic in the heel as they run away. It seems like a silly way to prove some sort of advantage especially when you've already admitted it has an advantage. And this is only one of the advantages the weapon has over the stock. Same hitbox size between the two and I think the iron bomber is still better than arbitrary rollers that are easier to identify and play around, but I guess that's close enough that it could be considered a sidegrade.

My argument would simply be that the iron bomber has a very silly and avoidable bug that is ignored, despite having a fix already available. And that begs the question of whether or not demo needs that buff. The counter to demo's incredible damage output has been to close distance, which I'd argue is definitely harder with 118.75% wider collision bounds. I think a better "own" to the iron bomber haters would be to simply use twiiku's fix and maintain the exact same level of accuracy and effectiveness, so we can all be sure that everything is operating as intended :)

I think the conversation is way past whether or not it's advantageous. It very clearly is and that's really not arguable. At this point if you're not going to implement the fix or ban the weapon the argument has to be that demo needs the slight buff.
36
#36
13 Frags +
capnnofapn
mustardoverlord said the same thing in another thread and I'd like an explanation of why this is the case. I can see this being true because your soldiers are usually the ones who get your team into a situation where you can start winning but I want your take on it.

Soldiers can travel long distances the quickest on the team using jumps and scouts are better at travelling short distances quickly to finish players off. This means soldiers are the best class for taking space and punishing overextending players, therefore they set the pace for your team.

This is why the most effective soldiers nowadays are super mobile since if you are grounded you get outmaneuvered and picked off.

[quote=capnnofapn]

mustardoverlord said the same thing in another thread and I'd like an explanation of why this is the case. I can see this being true because your soldiers are usually the ones who get your team into a situation where you can start winning but I want your take on it.[/quote]

Soldiers can travel long distances the quickest on the team using jumps and scouts are better at travelling short distances quickly to finish players off. This means soldiers are the best class for taking space and punishing overextending players, therefore they set the pace for your team.

This is why the most effective soldiers nowadays are super mobile since if you are grounded you get outmaneuvered and picked off.
37
#37
-11 Frags +
clckwrkI think the conversation is way past whether or not it's advantageous. It very clearly is and that's really not arguable. At this point if you're not going to implement the fix or ban the weapon the argument has to be that demo needs the slight buff.

I think the better argument is that it legitimately doesn't change the game a ton, otherwise it would have been a more prominent issue in the 6(?) years since it's been released. It would be akin to playing on a slightly slow server that gives +5 ping to everyone compared to a standard server at that location. Yes it makes a difference, but is it a difference that is legitimately worth arguing over?

[quote=clckwrk]I think the conversation is way past whether or not it's advantageous. It very clearly is and that's really not arguable. At this point if you're not going to implement the fix or ban the weapon the argument has to be that demo needs the slight buff.[/quote]

I think the better argument is that it legitimately doesn't change the game a ton, otherwise it would have been a more prominent issue in the 6(?) years since it's been released. It would be akin to playing on a slightly slow server that gives +5 ping to everyone compared to a standard server at that location. Yes it makes a difference, but is it a difference that is legitimately worth arguing over?
38
#38
12 Frags +
det-clckwrkI think the conversation is way past whether or not it's advantageous. It very clearly is and that's really not arguable. At this point if you're not going to implement the fix or ban the weapon the argument has to be that demo needs the slight buff.
I think the better argument is that it legitimately doesn't change the game a ton, otherwise it would have been a more prominent issue in the 6(?) years since it's been released. It would be akin to playing on a slightly slow server that gives +5 ping to everyone compared to a standard server at that location. Yes it makes a difference, but is it a difference that is legitimately worth arguing over?

- I would argue yes? Clearly it's worth arguing over, it's what everyone is doing

- Someone in habib's chat just 2 days ago said "demos seem more pipe heavy these days" and habib's answer was "with the iron bomber yes." He doesn't speak for the entirety of the demo playerbase but it can absolutely make the game more pipe heavy, but not necessarily for the right reason.

- What's your definition of "a ton?" demos aren't walking around killing the entire server unless they're the best players in the game, but it can have an effect on the game. What's ban-worthy? If it only affects the game a ton? What about a gigaton? What about "a good amount?" A fair amount? IDK. It's a pretty clear advantage as a hitbox and the fix already exists. If it doesn't affect the game a ton, why not just use the fix?

- I don't know what kind of comparison this is that you used with the whole ping thing. This doesn't strengthen your point or make it any clearer. Like, let me just imagine I'm playing on a slightly slow server that gives +5 ping to everyone so I can make sense of the difference? If you have to go to weird explanations like this maybe the answer isn't as clear as you think it is

edit: also to clear things up on my end, my official stance on the issue is that it is only worth keeping because demo needs the buff to his primary weapon. It would be preferred to buff stock but maybe that's just wishful thinking. At least with a buffed stock hitbox, everything would appear more 1:1

I do think it's ridiculous that people are arguing it doesn't make a difference or isn't a big enough difference worth arguing over. Okay, then let's just implement the fix or ban the weapon, right? What's the big deal? It's just needlessly disingenuous when all you have to do is argue instead that demo needs the added consistency with the iron bomber.

[quote=det-][quote=clckwrk]I think the conversation is way past whether or not it's advantageous. It very clearly is and that's really not arguable. At this point if you're not going to implement the fix or ban the weapon the argument has to be that demo needs the slight buff.[/quote]

I think the better argument is that it legitimately doesn't change the game a ton, otherwise it would have been a more prominent issue in the 6(?) years since it's been released. It would be akin to playing on a slightly slow server that gives +5 ping to everyone compared to a standard server at that location. Yes it makes a difference, but is it a difference that is legitimately worth arguing over?[/quote]

- I would argue yes? Clearly it's worth arguing over, it's what everyone is doing

- Someone in habib's chat just 2 days ago said "demos seem more pipe heavy these days" and habib's answer was "with the iron bomber yes." He doesn't speak for the entirety of the demo playerbase but it can absolutely make the game more pipe heavy, but not necessarily for the right reason.

- What's your definition of "a ton?" demos aren't walking around killing the entire server unless they're the best players in the game, but it can have an effect on the game. What's ban-worthy? If it only affects the game a ton? What about a gigaton? What about "a good amount?" A fair amount? IDK. It's a pretty clear advantage as a hitbox and the fix already exists. If it doesn't affect the game a ton, why not just use the fix?

- I don't know what kind of comparison this is that you used with the whole ping thing. This doesn't strengthen your point or make it any clearer. Like, let me just imagine I'm playing on a slightly slow server that gives +5 ping to everyone so I can make sense of the difference? If you have to go to weird explanations like this maybe the answer isn't as clear as you think it is

edit: also to clear things up on my end, my official stance on the issue is that it is only worth keeping because demo needs the buff to his primary weapon. It would be preferred to buff stock but maybe that's just wishful thinking. At least with a buffed stock hitbox, everything would appear more 1:1

I do think it's ridiculous that people are arguing it doesn't make a difference or isn't a big enough difference worth arguing over. Okay, then let's just implement the fix or ban the weapon, right? What's the big deal? It's just needlessly disingenuous when all you have to do is argue instead that demo needs the added consistency with the iron bomber.
39
#39
3 Frags +

if an iron bomber pipe is traveling perpendicular to a player strafing away from the pipe, how many extra ticks would the pipe collide with the player compared to a stock pipe fired in the same trajectory?

if an iron bomber pipe is traveling perpendicular to a player strafing away from the pipe, how many extra ticks would the pipe collide with the player compared to a stock pipe fired in the same trajectory?
40
#40
18 Frags +
skotihttps://i.imgur.com/i1Q7qsU.png

https://i.imgur.com/lGODz3g.jpg

[quote=skoti][img]https://i.imgur.com/i1Q7qsU.png[/img][/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/lGODz3g.jpg[/img]
41
#41
8 Frags +

People are acting like the iron bomber buffs demo in the sense that it directly allows him to do more damage when it just makes it slightly easier and less punishing of bad aim lol. The rollers being static and being able to deny chokes so easily is already a huge upside of the iron bomber, it doesn’t need the additional extra wide hitbox (which twiikus plug-in cites as being almost double as wide with precise length width numbers which is a much more meaningful number than the valve 115% or whatever)

Like those pics u posted show that the ib hitbox is BIGGER than the model whereas all the others are smaller, shit makes no sense at all. The loose cannon and loch n load are both interesting unlocks that are also seldom used now that ib is just better. Imagine the original had a slightly bigger explosion radius lmao that would be so dumb

People are acting like the iron bomber buffs demo in the sense that it directly allows him to do more damage when it just makes it slightly easier and less punishing of bad aim lol. The rollers being static and being able to deny chokes so easily is already a huge upside of the iron bomber, it doesn’t need the additional extra wide hitbox (which twiikus plug-in cites as being almost double as wide with precise length width numbers which is a much more meaningful number than the valve 115% or whatever)

Like those pics u posted show that the ib hitbox is BIGGER than the model whereas all the others are smaller, shit makes no sense at all. The loose cannon and loch n load are both interesting unlocks that are also seldom used now that ib is just better. Imagine the original had a slightly bigger explosion radius lmao that would be so dumb
42
#42
27 Frags +

the iron bomber fix which makes the pipes the correct size is the play, not making the stock bigger.

the iron bomber fix which makes the pipes the correct size is the play, not making the stock bigger.
43
#43
-4 Frags +

Now, using Iron Bomber does instantly make me think less of you, but I do mostly hate it from a game design perspective.

Projectiles should either use the same size hitbox, or the smallest projectile should have the smallest hitbox, and the largest the largest, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. What the fuck is that bullshit? What is the point of making a video game if what you're showing isn't going match what's happening anyway? This is one step removed from making invisible players a feature instead of a bug, and no one in their right mind would argue that that's a good idea.

Also, when deciding whether to use the IB hitbox or stock for all, ask yourself who you'd rather trust to have made sensible balancing decisions:
The team that decided 6 pipes are a bit much
or
the team that thought Scorch Shot was a good idea.

Now, using Iron Bomber does instantly make me think less of you, but I do mostly hate it from a game design perspective.

Projectiles should either use the same size hitbox, or the smallest projectile should have the smallest hitbox, and the largest the largest, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. What the fuck is that bullshit? What is the point of making a [i]video[/i] game if what you're showing isn't going match what's happening anyway? This is one step removed from making invisible players a feature instead of a bug, and no one in their right mind would argue that that's a good idea.

Also, when deciding whether to use the IB hitbox or stock for all, ask yourself who you'd rather trust to have made sensible balancing decisions:
The team that decided 6 pipes are a bit much
or
the team that thought Scorch Shot was a good idea.
44
#44
3 Frags +
YeeHawSoldiers can travel long distances the quickest on the team using jumps and scouts are better at travelling short distances quickly to finish players off. This means soldiers are the best class for taking space and punishing overextending players, therefore they set the pace for your team.

This is why the most effective soldiers nowadays are super mobile since if you are grounded you get outmaneuvered and picked off.

soldier is also the class with the biggest mechanics differences between low and high invite right now, from what i see.

[quote=YeeHaw]Soldiers can travel long distances the quickest on the team using jumps and scouts are better at travelling short distances quickly to finish players off. This means soldiers are the best class for taking space and punishing overextending players, therefore they set the pace for your team.

This is why the most effective soldiers nowadays are super mobile since if you are grounded you get outmaneuvered and picked off.[/quote]

soldier is also the class with the biggest mechanics differences between low and high invite right now, from what i see.
45
#45
3 Frags +
glassYeeHawSoldiers can travel long distances the quickest on the team using jumps and scouts are better at travelling short distances quickly to finish players off. This means soldiers are the best class for taking space and punishing overextending players, therefore they set the pace for your team.

This is why the most effective soldiers nowadays are super mobile since if you are grounded you get outmaneuvered and picked off.

soldier is also the class with the biggest mechanics differences between low and high invite right now, from what i see.

I think that's a result of what yeehaw is talking about, not the cause of it. if you're 10% worse at soldier you get omega punished, whereas if you're 10% worse at scout you just get 10% fewer kills

[quote=glass][quote=YeeHaw]Soldiers can travel long distances the quickest on the team using jumps and scouts are better at travelling short distances quickly to finish players off. This means soldiers are the best class for taking space and punishing overextending players, therefore they set the pace for your team.

This is why the most effective soldiers nowadays are super mobile since if you are grounded you get outmaneuvered and picked off.[/quote]

soldier is also the class with the biggest mechanics differences between low and high invite right now, from what i see.[/quote]

I think that's a result of what yeehaw is talking about, not the cause of it. if you're 10% worse at soldier you get omega punished, whereas if you're 10% worse at scout you just get 10% fewer kills
46
#46
14 Frags +
enrithdemo isn't even oppressive with bugged pipes, shit class

ur getting nerfed enrith deal with it

[quote=enrith]demo isn't even oppressive with bugged pipes, shit class[/quote]
ur getting nerfed enrith deal with it
47
#47
6 Frags +

I thought part of the reason an item whitelist was in place was to prevent bugged weapons from being used. Clearly the iron bomber having a larger pipe size is an unintended bugged side effect and it should either be banned or fixed for that reason alone

I thought part of the reason an item whitelist was in place was to prevent bugged weapons from being used. Clearly the iron bomber having a larger pipe size is an unintended bugged side effect and it should either be banned or fixed for that reason alone
48
#48
-5 Frags +

only good cuz of iron bombe

only good cuz of iron bombe
49
#49
1 Frags +

Seems like we're talking to a wall..
Has there ever been an official poll around the iron bomber situation?
Can we just try out twiikuu's fix in pre-season and hopefully conclude that we should use it in the regular season as well? Etf2l's 6s season starts around 20th of january

Seems like we're talking to a wall..
Has there ever been an official poll around the iron bomber situation?
Can we just try out twiikuu's fix in pre-season and hopefully conclude that we should use it in the regular season as well? Etf2l's 6s season starts around 20th of january
50
#50
-3 Frags +

just buff the loose cannon already, it makes a funny noise

just buff the loose cannon already, it makes a funny noise
51
#51
35 Frags +

What's there to talk about???? just add the plugin

What's there to talk about???? just add the plugin
52
#52
2 Frags +
MoermanSeems like we're talking to a wall..
Has there ever been an official poll around the iron bomber situation?
Can we just try out twiikuu's fix in pre-season and hopefully conclude that we should use it in the regular season as well? Etf2l's 6s season starts around 20th of january

if i remember correctly there actually was a poll about ib and mg(maybe it was only MG i dont remember), Market got banned and IB was like 60/40? for keeping it in the whitelist

[quote=Moerman]Seems like we're talking to a wall..
Has there ever been an official poll around the iron bomber situation?
Can we just try out twiikuu's fix in pre-season and hopefully conclude that we should use it in the regular season as well? Etf2l's 6s season starts around 20th of january[/quote]

if i remember correctly there actually was a poll about ib and mg(maybe it was only MG i dont remember), Market got banned and IB was like 60/40? for keeping it in the whitelist
53
#53
9 Frags +
NasBoiiWhat's there to talk about???? just add the plugin

u cant hit shit with buffed pipes, obviously u dont mind the plugin

[quote=NasBoii]What's there to talk about???? just add the plugin[/quote] u cant hit shit with buffed pipes, obviously u dont mind the plugin
54
#54
51 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/1U0eTR9.jpg

[img]https://i.imgur.com/1U0eTR9.jpg[/img]
55
#55
1 Frags +

Just ban it if anything, ideally we wouldn't use any plugins (that aren't bugfixes) if it's avoidable. I don't even know which plugins we're using anymore

Just ban it if anything, ideally we wouldn't use any plugins (that aren't bugfixes) if it's avoidable. I don't even know which plugins we're using anymore
56
#56
7 Frags +

why use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.

why use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.
57
#57
-2 Frags +
Makwhy use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.

https://c.tenor.com/k4SFOI_3m30AAAAM/drake-clap.gif

[quote=Mak]why use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.[/quote]
[img]https://c.tenor.com/k4SFOI_3m30AAAAM/drake-clap.gif[/img]
58
#58
20 Frags +
Makwhy use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.

valve also used to patch broken/abusable shit. There was a long time where the idea of using any fix was ridiculous but at what point do you just take fixing the game into your own hands

e: I don't care if we use a plugin or not just giving the counter argument

[quote=Mak]why use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.[/quote]

valve also used to patch broken/abusable shit. There was a long time where the idea of using any fix was ridiculous but at what point do you just take fixing the game into your own hands

e: I don't care if we use a plugin or not just giving the counter argument
59
#59
15 Frags +

I'm not sure if this is established in the current conversation but it might be worth mentioning:
The plugin allows overriding the dimension of the hitbox (which is forced to be a cube) to any value, 4.0 being the one of default pipes, buffing all pipe launchers to be as big as IB is a possibility, so is finding a middle ground

Now that I think about it, the cvar should be called `sm_override_pipe_dimension` :(
(IB pipes are over 9 times bigger in terms of volume hehe)

Makwhy use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.

Would you make the point that using this feature introduces potential differences between regions? I don't buy that, banning a weapon has the exact same effect, the difference is that the plugin lets you play with the weapon, which is a positive in my book

I'm not sure if this is established in the current conversation but it might be worth mentioning:
The plugin allows overriding the dimension of the hitbox (which is forced to be a cube) to any value, 4.0 being the one of default pipes, buffing all pipe launchers to be as big as IB is a possibility, so is finding a middle ground

Now that I think about it, the cvar should be called `sm_override_pipe_dimension` :(
(IB pipes are over 9 times bigger in terms of volume hehe)

[quote=Mak]why use a plugin when u can ban it. this is why i was against plugins that arent fixing things that should obviously be fixed (think ramp bug etc, where the fix is essentially free and very hard to argue against). before plugin meta we just banned/disallowed shit that was clearly broken/abusable.[/quote]
Would you make the point that using this feature introduces potential differences between regions? I don't buy that, banning a weapon has the exact same effect, the difference is that the plugin lets you play with the weapon, which is a positive in my book
60
#60
12 Frags +

Pro-mod when

Pro-mod when
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