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Thank You Letter to RGL
31
#31
-13 Frags +

qds

qds
32
#32
47 Frags +

Failing to provide another demo less than 3 months after your 2nd infraction is kinda on you tbh. Like at that point you should make sure that your P-REC is correctly installed + set to notify you that it is recording, or you switch to the in-game demo system if you cannot get P-REC to work.
It's a given that players who are known to not upload demos multiple times before will get another request in the future.

Phantomdefinitely need admins to use reason with the requesting demos thing. if someone is a suspected cheater or something then sure, but I have a warning for the rest of eternity cause i got requested and didn't have the demo due to reinstalling windows even tho my team got 4-0'd by sandblast

Infractions last for 4 years, the same as it is on ETF2L. The fact that only a select amount of players ever collected 3, 4+ demo infractions makes me think that 4 years isn't too long of a time period either. It used to be a permanent infraction in the past, but the game is old now and it would punish older community members more. I don't think your PC or hard-drive will fail 4+ times in 4 years.

Players must store POV demos for at least three months after the last match of the event, such as a season or a cup, that match was played in. Upon request by a staff member for a particular demo, they must supply it.
...
Demo offenses that are 4-years or older are reset and do not count towards a player’s future penalty. Players that have a past cheating ban do not have an expiry with demo offenses.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jfp2o6X4m0zdrX50kZ5YNsrvBANqxfDb-nEsRBb1wh0/view#heading=h.y35owo9je7na

What I can say is that demo requests should be made relatively close to the match, even following the rule above admins should still try to request from for example a week 1 match while the season is still on-going, requesting that same week 3 months (or even more) later should only be done in very extreme cases.

MoermanPls only demo request when you suspect the player to cheat. So RGL, antlers and tftv shouldnt go through this misery in the first place.

So you or someone else that is being investigated by the AC team will know exactly when that is the case?
I cannot state enough how important it is for AC that players are forced to record and keep their POVs, and having a lot of random requests and clear punishments help to make sure players know and actually care about the rule. STVs are rarely valid replacements for POVs.

Failing to provide another demo less than 3 months after your 2nd infraction is kinda on you tbh. Like at that point you should make sure that your P-REC is correctly installed + set to notify you that it is recording, or you switch to the in-game demo system if you cannot get P-REC to work.
It's a given that players who are known to not upload demos multiple times before will get another request in the future.

[quote=Phantom]definitely need admins to use reason with the requesting demos thing. if someone is a suspected cheater or something then sure, but I have a warning for the rest of eternity cause i got requested and didn't have the demo due to reinstalling windows even tho my team got 4-0'd by sandblast[/quote]
Infractions last for 4 years, the same as it is on ETF2L. The fact that only a select amount of players ever collected 3, 4+ demo infractions makes me think that 4 years isn't too long of a time period either. It used to be a permanent infraction in the past, but the game is old now and it would punish older community members more. I don't think your PC or hard-drive will fail 4+ times in 4 years.
[quote]Players must store POV demos for at least three months after the last match of the event, such as a season or a cup, that match was played in. Upon request by a staff member for a particular demo, they must supply it.
...
Demo offenses that are 4-years or older are reset and do not count towards a player’s future penalty. Players that have a past cheating ban do not have an expiry with demo offenses.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jfp2o6X4m0zdrX50kZ5YNsrvBANqxfDb-nEsRBb1wh0/view#heading=h.y35owo9je7na
[/quote]
What I can say is that demo requests should be made relatively close to the match, even following the rule above admins should still try to request from for example a week 1 match while the season is still on-going, requesting that same week 3 months (or even more) later should only be done in very extreme cases.

[quote=Moerman]Pls only demo request when you suspect the player to cheat. So RGL, antlers and tftv shouldnt go through this misery in the first place.[/quote]
So you or someone else that is being investigated by the AC team will know exactly when that is the case?
I cannot state enough how important it is for AC that players are forced to record and keep their POVs, and having a lot of random requests and clear punishments help to make sure players know and actually care about the rule. STVs are rarely valid replacements for POVs.
33
#33
-14 Frags +

random demo requests dont really make sense given how broken the demo recording systems are and how small the league is
antlers should be given somewhat exceptional treatment given that his problem is directly caused by his efforts to do volunteer production work for RGL

random demo requests dont really make sense given how broken the demo recording systems are and how small the league is
antlers should be given somewhat exceptional treatment given that his problem is directly caused by his efforts to do volunteer production work for RGL
34
#34
44 Frags +

You do realise that everyone's been complaining about RGL always bending the rules, and now you're asking them to bend the rules?

There should never be a "cast x games, allowed to cheat once" type of deal. The whole "but does he really need to record demos if he's not cheating" argument is garbage.

The odds are incredibly low that this random demo is the only one where the recording failed.
No, the guy got banned for failing to record a demo, got banned for two weeks, and still didn't fix his config.

And it's not like using separate custom folders for casting and playing is some sort of witchcraft. Then all you need to do to switch them, including plugins, is to rename the folders.

How many casters have managed to not break P-REC and their configs over the years? It doesn't seem to be all that hard. I'm sure if he had asked "how do I not fuck up my config every time I cast" someone would've told him.

Yet he didn't. No, he got banned for two weeks, didn't do anything to remedy the cause, and now he got banned again.
What was RGL supposed to do? Ask nicely?

I mean what do you want? That RGL stops banning anyone for minor infractions as long as someone else who you think is cheating hasn't been banned? Ban immunity based on popularity or community contributions?

He's got 3 months to fix his config now. And to cast games, I think he's still allowed to do that.
Let's hope he manages it this time.

You do realise that everyone's been complaining about RGL always bending the rules, and now you're asking them to bend the rules?

There should never be a "cast x games, allowed to cheat once" type of deal. The whole "but does he really need to record demos if he's not cheating" argument is garbage.

The odds are incredibly low that this random demo is the only one where the recording failed.
No, the guy got banned for failing to record a demo, got banned for two weeks, and [b]still didn't fix his config[/b].

And it's not like using separate custom folders for casting and playing is some sort of witchcraft. Then all you need to do to switch them, including plugins, is to rename the folders.

How many casters have managed to [b]not[/b] break P-REC and their configs over the years? It doesn't seem to be all that hard. I'm sure if he had asked "how do I not fuck up my config every time I cast" someone would've told him.

Yet he didn't. No, he got banned for two weeks, didn't do anything to remedy the cause, and now he got banned again.
What was RGL supposed to do? Ask nicely?

I mean what do you want? That RGL stops banning anyone for minor infractions as long as someone else who you think is cheating hasn't been banned? Ban immunity based on popularity or community contributions?

He's got 3 months to fix his config now. And to cast games, I think he's still allowed to do that.
Let's hope he manages it this time.
35
#35
8 Frags +
brody

You sample randomly to discourage cheating. not because they think those people are cheating, but to make the risk higher of being caught if you do.
A simple example is a cashier asking you to open your backpack if you took it with you in their store. They don't think you stole anything. They ask it to make sure people who intend to steal are discouraged to come into that store and fill their backpacks

As setsul mentioned, exceptional treatment happening is like half the reason RGL threads are made. If he'd not have been banned for this, a thread might've been made of someone complaining admins are giving exceptions while their own teammates got banned for it

[quote=brody][/quote]
You sample randomly to discourage cheating. not because they think those people are cheating, but to make the risk higher of being caught if you do.
A simple example is a cashier asking you to open your backpack if you took it with you in their store. They don't think you stole anything. They ask it to make sure people who intend to steal are discouraged to come into that store and fill their backpacks

As setsul mentioned, exceptional treatment happening is like half the reason RGL threads are made. If he'd not have been banned for this, a thread might've been made of someone complaining admins are giving exceptions while their own teammates got banned for it
36
#36
28 Frags +

i would be more understanding of the demand from rgl for people to record and submit their demos if they actually did something with the demos they got, and quickly if there are actually signs of cheating. the fact that mxr and elijah were allowed to play a full season (and almost another had mxr not exposed his cheats on stream) when there were several pieces of evidence towards them cheating is just ridiculous

i would be more understanding of the demand from rgl for people to record and submit their demos if they actually did something with the demos they got, and quickly if there are actually signs of cheating. the fact that mxr and elijah were allowed to play a full season (and almost another had mxr not exposed his cheats on stream) when there were several pieces of evidence towards them cheating is just ridiculous
37
#37
-20 Frags +

personally i do not think that antlers is cheating!

personally i do not think that antlers is cheating!
38
#38
30 Frags +
brodypersonally i do not think that antlers is cheating!

And that is 100% irrelevant.

[quote=brody]personally i do not think that antlers is cheating![/quote]
And that is 100% irrelevant.
39
#39
-2 Frags +

http://puu.sh/IfWLk/4caa411d6c.png

This rule was added sometime around august of this year.

This rule is bad, 4 years for a failed demo check to expire is an obviously stupid idea. This rule was apparently copied from ETF2L and was motivated for anticheat reasons, so this is a callout for ETF2L admins who think this is a good idea as well.

Make failed demo checks expire in a reasonable time.

This system accomplishes nothing productive for anticheat, and largely only results in punishment for innocent players. I do not care how you have rationalized to yourself that anticheat needs this system, they simply do not. I do not care how you have rationalized that "its easy to record demos", 4 years is an absurd length of time to demand only 1 mistake over something this inconsequential. If you failed a demo check on your first match of RGL 6s in S1 it would be barely over half way to expiring as of today.

[img]http://puu.sh/IfWLk/4caa411d6c.png[/img]
[url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1572&r=24]This rule was added sometime around august of this year.
[/url]

This rule is bad, 4 years for a failed demo check to expire is an obviously stupid idea. This rule was apparently copied from ETF2L and was motivated for anticheat reasons, so this is a callout for ETF2L admins who think this is a good idea as well.

Make failed demo checks expire in a reasonable time.

This system accomplishes nothing productive for anticheat, and largely only results in punishment for innocent players. I do not care how you have rationalized to yourself that anticheat needs this system, they simply do not. I do not care how you have rationalized that "its easy to record demos", 4 years is an absurd length of time to demand only 1 mistake over something this inconsequential. If you failed a demo check on your first match of RGL 6s in S1 it would be barely over half way to expiring as of today.
40
#40
-16 Frags +

please stop germans from posting in rgl threads

please stop germans from posting in rgl threads
41
#41
1 Frags +
Wackyfireballif only prec had some way of notifying you that it was recording

It always has been possible? Albeit it is rather subtle when it happens but it's better than nothing
You can get these commands to show up when you type "prec_info" to console

"prec_notify" = "1" ( def. "1" )
- Notify when started/stoped recording and setting bookmarks
0 - show message in console
1 - displays message in team chat
2 - displays message in hud

"prec_sound" = "1"
- Play sound when start/stop recording (1 - on ,0 - off)

[quote=Wackyfireball]if only prec had some way of notifying you that it was recording[/quote]
It always has been possible? Albeit it is rather subtle when it happens but it's better than nothing
You can get these commands to show up when you type "prec_info" to console

"prec_notify" = "1" ( def. "1" )
- Notify when started/stoped recording and setting bookmarks
0 - show message in console
1 - displays message in team chat
2 - displays message in hud

"prec_sound" = "1"
- Play sound when start/stop recording (1 - on ,0 - off)
42
#42
20 Frags +
BloodisWackyfireballif only prec had some way of notifying you that it was recordingIt always has been possible? Albeit it is rather subtle when it happens but it's better than nothing
You can get these commands to show up when you type "prec_info" to console

"prec_notify" = "1" ( def. "1" )
- Notify when started/stoped recording and setting bookmarks
0 - show message in console
1 - displays message in team chat
2 - displays message in hud

"prec_sound" = "1"
- Play sound when start/stop recording (1 - on ,0 - off)

He was being sarcastic my friend

[quote=Bloodis][quote=Wackyfireball]if only prec had some way of notifying you that it was recording[/quote]
It always has been possible? Albeit it is rather subtle when it happens but it's better than nothing
You can get these commands to show up when you type "prec_info" to console

"prec_notify" = "1" ( def. "1" )
- Notify when started/stoped recording and setting bookmarks
0 - show message in console
1 - displays message in team chat
2 - displays message in hud

"prec_sound" = "1"
- Play sound when start/stop recording (1 - on ,0 - off)[/quote]

He was being sarcastic my friend
43
#43
17 Frags +
eddiieeHe was being sarcastic my friend

My bad, carry on

[quote=eddiiee]He was being sarcastic my friend[/quote]

My bad, carry on
44
#44
11 Frags +
nablahttp://puu.sh/IfWLk/4caa411d6c.png
This rule was added sometime around august of this year.


This rule is bad, 4 years for a failed demo check to expire is an obviously stupid idea. This rule was apparently copied from ETF2L and was motivated for anticheat reasons, so this is a callout for ETF2L admins who think this is a good idea as well.

Make failed demo checks expire in a reasonable time.

This system accomplishes nothing productive for anticheat, and largely only results in punishment for innocent players. I do not care how you have rationalized to yourself that anticheat needs this system, they simply do not. I do not care how you have rationalized that "its easy to record demos", 4 years is an absurd length of time to demand only 1 mistake over something this inconsequential. If you failed a demo check on your first match of RGL 6s in S1 it would be barely over half way to expiring as of today.

It's simple: You can't have two different sets of rules for those who you suspect of cheating and those who were just routinely checked.
If you don't have the manpower to check three demos from every single player every year then it becomes way too easy to dodge all inspections completely. Just take the three month ban, that's nothing compared to two years. Or just stop cheating after the first demo request, and after the second (which you do upload) you can go right back. The missed one won't matter anymore if it expires after a few months or a year.

This is not one singular mistake. You need to make the same mistake over and over again. We're talking about a three month ban here, after failing at a basic task three times, that's not the end of the world.
Feel free to figure out how many times his demos have been requested, then calculate which percentage of that he failed.
Imagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.
And yes, bans for not uploading demos usually hit players that broke a different rule, not the "no cheating" rule. That is not a problem. They are not being banned for cheating, hence much short bans, like 2 weeks and even that only after the second time.
If the vast majority of those banned for failing to upload demos were cheaters, then your league would have to be overrun with cheaters.

[quote=nabla][img]http://puu.sh/IfWLk/4caa411d6c.png[/img]
[url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1572&r=24]This rule was added sometime around august of this year.
[/url]

This rule is bad, 4 years for a failed demo check to expire is an obviously stupid idea. This rule was apparently copied from ETF2L and was motivated for anticheat reasons, so this is a callout for ETF2L admins who think this is a good idea as well.

Make failed demo checks expire in a reasonable time.

This system accomplishes nothing productive for anticheat, and largely only results in punishment for innocent players. I do not care how you have rationalized to yourself that anticheat needs this system, they simply do not. I do not care how you have rationalized that "its easy to record demos", 4 years is an absurd length of time to demand only 1 mistake over something this inconsequential. If you failed a demo check on your first match of RGL 6s in S1 it would be barely over half way to expiring as of today.[/quote]
It's simple: You can't have two different sets of rules for those who you suspect of cheating and those who were just routinely checked.
If you don't have the manpower to check three demos from every single player every year then it becomes way too easy to dodge all inspections completely. Just take the three month ban, that's nothing compared to two years. Or just stop cheating after the first demo request, and after the second (which you do upload) you can go right back. The missed one won't matter anymore if it expires after a few months or a year.

This is not one singular mistake. You need to make the same mistake over and over again. We're talking about a three month ban here, after failing at a basic task three times, that's not the end of the world.
Feel free to figure out how many times his demos have been requested, then calculate which percentage of that he failed.
Imagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.
And yes, bans for not uploading demos usually hit players that broke a different rule, not the "no cheating" rule. That is not a problem. They are not being banned for cheating, hence much short bans, like 2 weeks and even that only after the second time.
If the vast majority of those banned for failing to upload demos were cheaters, then your league would have to be overrun with cheaters.
45
#45
2 Frags +

arguing for random demo checks under the logic of "it discourages cheaters because they might get randomly requested" is incredibly stupid. maybe in a real league, but with rgl you have an anti-cheat team that watches 3 dozen mxr demos and concludes he isn't cheating, there is a 0% chance of them discovering a cheater off a random demo check, short of someone spinbotting in the first 30 seconds of the demo

arguing for random demo checks under the logic of "it discourages cheaters because they might get randomly requested" is incredibly stupid. maybe in a real league, but with rgl you have an anti-cheat team that watches 3 dozen mxr demos and concludes he isn't cheating, there is a 0% chance of them discovering a cheater off a random demo check, short of someone spinbotting in the first 30 seconds of the demo
46
#46
1 Frags +

lol random demo requests except u can just upload ur UGC 4s scrim and they would never know

lol random demo requests except u can just upload ur UGC 4s scrim and they would never know
47
#47
-4 Frags +
SetsulImagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.

Weren't RGL servers and configs broken and wrong for like the first 2 seasons??

[quote=Setsul]
Imagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.
[/quote]


Weren't RGL servers and configs broken and wrong for like the first 2 seasons??
48
#48
UGC
19 Frags +
cleanbuddylol random demo requests except u can just upload ur UGC 4s scrim and they would never know

bruh

[quote=cleanbuddy]lol random demo requests except u can just upload ur UGC 4s scrim and they would never know[/quote]

bruh
49
#49
16 Frags +
Air_arguing for random demo checks under the logic of "it discourages cheaters because they might get randomly requested" is incredibly stupid. maybe in a real league, but with rgl you have an anti-cheat team that watches 3 dozen mxr demos and concludes he isn't cheating, there is a 0% chance of them discovering a cheater off a random demo check, short of someone spinbotting in the first 30 seconds of the demo

Ok, but you do get how the solution to that is to get a better AC team, not to give up and stop requesting demos entirely?

Tino_SetsulImagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.Weren't RGL servers and configs broken and wrong for like the first 2 seasons??

I wouldn't know.
Though it's whataboutism either way. Just because RGL gets to be incompetent, doesn't mean you're allowed to fail basic tasks as well.

[quote=Air_]arguing for random demo checks under the logic of "it discourages cheaters because they might get randomly requested" is incredibly stupid. maybe in a real league, but with rgl you have an anti-cheat team that watches 3 dozen mxr demos and concludes he isn't cheating, there is a 0% chance of them discovering a cheater off a random demo check, short of someone spinbotting in the first 30 seconds of the demo[/quote]
Ok, but you do get how the solution to that is to get a better AC team, not to give up and stop requesting demos entirely?

[quote=Tino_][quote=Setsul]
Imagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.
[/quote]
Weren't RGL servers and configs broken and wrong for like the first 2 seasons??[/quote]
I wouldn't know.
Though it's whataboutism either way. Just because RGL gets to be incompetent, doesn't mean you're allowed to fail basic tasks as well.
50
#50
8 Frags +
Air_arguing for random demo checks under the logic of "it discourages cheaters because they might get randomly requested" is incredibly stupid. maybe in a real league, but with rgl you have an anti-cheat team that watches 3 dozen mxr demos and concludes he isn't cheating, there is a 0% chance of them discovering a cheater off a random demo check, short of someone spinbotting in the first 30 seconds of the demo

Random checks help to make sure that everyone follows the rules and records without exceptions. When you do a lot of random requests, it will be harder to tell who is getting investigated while at the same time make more people aware that this rule exists. If you don't do that, you make it clear that you only target suspects. Public outcries like "please ban player X, they obviously cheat, you are taking too long" in threads like these poison a case and that will only ever help cheaters as well. But you'd also be surprised what you can find in a single, random demo. ;)
And perhaps sometimes an AC case isn't as easily solvable as it seems at a first glance; there could be explanations for moments where someone who doesn't know what to look for can reach premature conclusions. A player that got banned a bit later is still better than someone innocent getting banned for something that ended up being nothing.
You don't want scenarios like alfa's UGC ban to be a common occurence, right?

[quote=Air_]arguing for random demo checks under the logic of "it discourages cheaters because they might get randomly requested" is incredibly stupid. maybe in a real league, but with rgl you have an anti-cheat team that watches 3 dozen mxr demos and concludes he isn't cheating, there is a 0% chance of them discovering a cheater off a random demo check, short of someone spinbotting in the first 30 seconds of the demo[/quote]
Random checks help to make sure that everyone follows the rules and records without exceptions. When you do a lot of random requests, it will be harder to tell who is getting investigated while at the same time make more people aware that this rule exists. If you don't do that, you make it clear that you only target suspects. Public outcries like "please ban player X, they obviously cheat, you are taking too long" in threads like these poison a case and that will only ever help cheaters as well. But you'd also be surprised what you can find in a single, random demo. ;)
And perhaps sometimes an AC case isn't as easily solvable as it seems at a first glance; there could be explanations for moments where someone who doesn't know what to look for can reach premature conclusions. A player that got banned a bit later is still better than someone innocent getting banned for something that ended up being nothing.
You don't want scenarios like alfa's UGC ban to be a common occurence, right?
51
#51
-12 Frags +
SetsulJust because RGL gets to be incompetent, doesn't mean you're allowed to fail basic tasks as well.

Well no, if RGL gets to be incompetent then there is no reason to respect what they have to say. Its not saying that people have no responsibility, its asking why the fuck would anyone consider anything RGL says as meaningful? Sure in this specific instance they probably should have un-fucked their demos, but (for the millionth time it seems) the discussion is less about the specific instance, and more about the staggering incompetence and inconsistency of RGL. This player is just the catalyst for (another) discussion to happen. Also, if you don't actually know fuck all about RGL why are you playing the rules lawyer for something that literally does not effect you?

[quote=Setsul]Just because RGL gets to be incompetent, doesn't mean you're allowed to fail basic tasks as well.[/quote]


Well no, if RGL gets to be incompetent then there is no reason to respect what they have to say. Its not saying that people have no responsibility, its asking why the fuck would anyone consider anything RGL says as meaningful? Sure in this specific instance they probably should have un-fucked their demos, but (for the millionth time it seems) the discussion is less about the specific instance, and more about the staggering incompetence and inconsistency of RGL. This player is just the catalyst for (another) discussion to happen. Also, if you don't actually know fuck all about RGL why are you playing the rules lawyer for something that literally does not effect you?
52
#52
-9 Frags +

free antlers. it's an unfortunate situation but just make up for it by getting all his match demos for the rest of the season, i think that's fair.

free antlers. it's an unfortunate situation but just make up for it by getting all his match demos for the rest of the season, i think that's fair.
53
#53
7 Frags +

Yes, I remember when an ETF2L admin made a questionable back in '11. Since then all rules have been suspended and everyone gets to do whatever they want.
That is the law after all. If you disagree with a league's rules often enough, then you don't have to follow them anymore.

Oh wait.

Yes, I remember when an ETF2L admin made a questionable back in '11. Since then all rules have been suspended and everyone gets to do whatever they want.
That is the law after all. If you disagree with a league's rules often enough, then you don't have to follow them anymore.

Oh wait.
54
#54
13 Frags +
nablahttp://puu.sh/IfWLk/4caa411d6c.png
This rule was added sometime around august of this year.


This rule is bad, 4 years for a failed demo check to expire is an obviously stupid idea. This rule was apparently copied from ETF2L and was motivated for anticheat reasons, so this is a callout for ETF2L admins who think this is a good idea as well.

Make failed demo checks expire in a reasonable time.

I don't play RGL, but I don't understand why you think this timeframe is unreasonable. Does RGL have considerably more requests than ETF2L? Because I've had to provide POV demos about 3 times in ~5 years and over 150 officials. I think 4 years strikes a balance between not punishing genuine ancient history, without removing the consequences for not recording. What do you regard as a better timeframe?

It seems this recently banned player has failed to provide demos 3 times in under two years, which is clearly a severe lack of diligence on their part if not something malicious. Has this player actually provided a demo at all in that time, or are people defending someone who has just repeatedly failed to provide demos?

[quote=nabla][img]http://puu.sh/IfWLk/4caa411d6c.png[/img]
[url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1572&r=24]This rule was added sometime around august of this year.
[/url]

This rule is bad, 4 years for a failed demo check to expire is an obviously stupid idea. This rule was apparently copied from ETF2L and was motivated for anticheat reasons, so this is a callout for ETF2L admins who think this is a good idea as well.

Make failed demo checks expire in a reasonable time.
[/quote]

I don't play RGL, but I don't understand why you think this timeframe is unreasonable. Does RGL have considerably more requests than ETF2L? Because I've had to provide POV demos about 3 times in ~5 years and over 150 officials. I think 4 years strikes a balance between not punishing genuine ancient history, without removing the consequences for not recording. What do you regard as a better timeframe?

It seems this recently banned player has failed to provide demos 3 times in under two years, which is clearly a severe lack of diligence on their part if not something malicious. Has this player actually provided a demo at all in that time, or are people defending someone who has just repeatedly failed to provide demos?
55
#55
13 Frags +

question: in etf2l, does your team get 1 demo request per match no matter what? cuz we got that in rgl and it seemed a bit excessive.

other than that, I actually tend to agree with The Germans on this one, you can't go around making exceptions just because you like people more, but I also agree that rgl needs to operate better in general to earn the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. say what you want about etf2l's overly harsh rules, but since some really rough patches early on in their existence (quad and whatnot) the etf2l anti-cheat team has been easily the gold standard of cheat detection across the global leagues, and people generally have faith in them to curtail any cheating that's at least like 30% obvious.

question: in etf2l, does your team get 1 demo request per match no matter what? cuz we got that in rgl and it seemed a bit excessive.

other than that, I actually tend to agree with The Germans on this one, you can't go around making exceptions just because you like people more, but I also agree that rgl needs to operate better in general to earn the benefit of the doubt in situations like this. say what you want about etf2l's overly harsh rules, but since some really rough patches early on in their existence (quad and whatnot) the etf2l anti-cheat team has been easily the gold standard of cheat detection across the global leagues, and people generally have faith in them to curtail any cheating that's at least like 30% obvious.
56
#56
5 Frags +
mustardoverlordquestion: in etf2l, does your team get 1 demo request per match no matter what? cuz we got that in rgl and it seemed a bit excessive.ETF2L rulesThe opposing team can request demo files at any time until 48 hours have passed after an official match was scheduled to start. They can request demos from up to two opposing players, who will then have to provide their demos for all played maps. A team is only allowed to make four demo requests in a single competition.
[quote=mustardoverlord]question: in etf2l, does your team get 1 demo request per match no matter what? cuz we got that in rgl and it seemed a bit excessive.[/quote]
[quote=ETF2L rules]The opposing team can request demo files at any time until 48 hours have passed after an official match was scheduled to start. They can request demos from up to two opposing players, who will then have to provide their demos for all played maps. A team is only allowed to make four demo requests in a single competition.
[/quote]
57
#57
-8 Frags +

i hope you find god mustard how have you been on this site for 10years

i hope you find god mustard how have you been on this site for 10years
58
#58
-3 Frags +
SetsulIt's simple: You can't have two different sets of rules for those who you suspect of cheating and those who were just routinely checked.
If you don't have the manpower to check three demos from every single player every year then it becomes way too easy to dodge all inspections completely. Just take the three month ban, that's nothing compared to two years. Or just stop cheating after the first demo request, and after the second (which you do upload) you can go right back. The missed one won't matter anymore if it expires after a few months or a year.

Hypothetical arguments about abusing a system where warnings expire does not reflect reality- there is no upper limit on the frequency you can request demos or the quantity which you can request at the same time after their first failed check.

If somebody is suspected of being a cheater you will have plenty of chances to catch them in the act or threaten a cheating ban by 4+ unsubmitted demos in a year if you stop obsessing about "We Cant Let Them Know We Suspect Them" (As if there have literally ever been anticheat bans where the community isn't already suspect of players first)

For the cases where players might cheat super rarely or just once- they are either getting away with it because nobody notices it OR they are really blatant because they don't practice keeping cheats hidden. There is practically no in-between for them.

SetsulThis is not one singular mistake. You need to make the same mistake over and over again. We're talking about a three month ban here, after failing at a basic task three times, that's not the end of the world.
Feel free to figure out how many times his demos have been requested, then calculate which percentage of that he failed.
Imagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.
And yes, bans for not uploading demos usually hit players that broke a different rule, not the "no cheating" rule. That is not a problem. They are not being banned for cheating, hence much short bans, like 2 weeks and even that only after the second time.
If the vast majority of those banned for failing to upload demos were cheaters, then your league would have to be overrun with cheaters.

"Over and over again" does not mean once per year. I also feel like a 3 month ban is far from inconsequential. That's an entire season of tf2, and probably unrefunded league fees to make it sting more.

When viewed from a "worst case scenario" this rule is really obviously overkill. You can miss demo checks on October 1st 2020, sometime in the year 2022, and September 30th 2024 and get banned for a full season for in your words "failing at a basic task three times" as if there aren't huge gaps in time between those occurrences and this isn't totally unreasonable.

mustardoverlordbut I also agree that rgl needs to operate better in general to earn the benefit of the doubt in situations like this

This is also relevant, the AC team in RGL has not had false positives- but it has also let known cheaters continue to play actively. They are understaffed and ineffective as an extension of that. Rules made to benefit them that largely punish innocent players come off as extremely tone-deaf. Mxr was allowed to play an entire season when every 6s admin knew he was cheating and couldn't do anything about it waiting for AC to eventually get around to his case (or not, because he got banned for showing his cheats on stream rather than any investigative work). Its decidedly uncool to know you got banned for 2 weeks / 3 months because of an overly strict rule imposed by the lads responsible for that situation.

[quote=Setsul]
It's simple: You can't have two different sets of rules for those who you suspect of cheating and those who were just routinely checked.
If you don't have the manpower to check three demos from every single player every year then it becomes way too easy to dodge all inspections completely. Just take the three month ban, that's nothing compared to two years. Or just stop cheating after the first demo request, and after the second (which you do upload) you can go right back. The missed one won't matter anymore if it expires after a few months or a year.
[/quote]

Hypothetical arguments about abusing a system where warnings expire does not reflect reality- there is no upper limit on the frequency you can request demos or the quantity which you can request at the same time after their first failed check.

If somebody is suspected of being a cheater you will have plenty of chances to catch them in the act or threaten a cheating ban by 4+ unsubmitted demos in a year if you stop obsessing about "We Cant Let Them Know We Suspect Them" (As if there have literally ever been anticheat bans where the community isn't already suspect of players first)

For the cases where players might cheat super rarely or just once- they are either getting away with it because nobody notices it OR they are really blatant because they don't practice keeping cheats hidden. There is practically no in-between for them.

[quote=Setsul]
This is not one singular mistake. You need to make the same mistake over and over again. We're talking about a three month ban here, after failing at a basic task three times, that's not the end of the world.
Feel free to figure out how many times his demos have been requested, then calculate which percentage of that he failed.
Imagine if you had to play matches on servers running the wrong config just as often.
And yes, bans for not uploading demos usually hit players that broke a different rule, not the "no cheating" rule. That is not a problem. They are not being banned for cheating, hence much short bans, like 2 weeks and even that only after the second time.
If the vast majority of those banned for failing to upload demos were cheaters, then your league would have to be overrun with cheaters.[/quote]
"Over and over again" does not mean once per year. I also feel like a 3 month ban is far from inconsequential. That's an entire season of tf2, and probably unrefunded league fees to make it sting more.

When viewed from a "worst case scenario" this rule is really obviously overkill. You can miss demo checks on October 1st 2020, sometime in the year 2022, and September 30th 2024 and get banned for a full season for in your words "failing at a basic task three times" as if there aren't huge gaps in time between those occurrences and this isn't totally unreasonable.

[quote=mustardoverlord]but I also agree that rgl needs to operate better in general to earn the benefit of the doubt in situations like this[/quote]
This is also relevant, the AC team in RGL has not had false positives- but it has also let known cheaters continue to play actively. They are understaffed and ineffective as an extension of that. Rules made to benefit them that largely punish innocent players come off as extremely tone-deaf. Mxr was allowed to play an entire season when every 6s admin knew he was cheating and couldn't do anything about it waiting for AC to eventually get around to his case (or not, because he got banned for showing his cheats on stream rather than any investigative work). Its decidedly uncool to know you got banned for 2 weeks / 3 months because of an overly strict rule imposed by the lads responsible for that situation.
59
#59
5 Frags +

to be clear, in rgl the other team doesn't just request demos, rgl itself asks you for demos from a random one of your team's players for every single match

to be clear, in rgl the other team doesn't just request demos, rgl itself asks you for demos from a random one of your team's players for every single match
60
#60
12 Frags +
brodyrandom demo requests dont really make sense given how broken the demo recording systems are and how small the league is

It's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore, the only time you really have to worry about it is if you think your hard-drive might fail in the next few months and at that point you should have a backup ready anyway or just get a new drive. Also just as a PSA, rejoining the match after a timeout will not restart the recording automatically with P-REC, so make sure to always start a manual demo recording once you rejoin the server.

brodyantlers should be given somewhat exceptional treatment given that his problem is directly caused by his efforts to do volunteer production work for RGL

This thread is just so weird, there were some events about RGL league staff being inconsistent in the past where I agreed with the complaints, but now you guys complain about RGL NOT being inconsistent? So you want some players to get preferential treatment over others because they support the league in some way etc.? That's a slippery slope and you know it. "Hey, that guy always casts some of our matches, let's overlook this demo infraction; hey, this guy is a 6s admin, let's just forget about them harassing others multiple times; hey, this guy donated $100 last week, let's overlook the time he used the Spy decloak script in the official." etc. you get what I mean.
This just seems like someone who has more backing in the community/is more "popular" got banned and you don't agree with it, I doubt this thread would exist otherwise and you couldn't care less about the actual rule itself. Admins shouldn't be biased in their decisions, don't be biased yourself.

[quote=brody]random demo requests dont really make sense given how broken the demo recording systems are and how small the league is[/quote]
It's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore, the only time you really have to worry about it is if you think your hard-drive might fail in the next few months and at that point you should have a backup ready anyway or just get a new drive. Also just as a PSA, rejoining the match after a timeout will not restart the recording automatically with P-REC, so make sure to always start a manual demo recording once you rejoin the server.

[quote=brody]antlers should be given somewhat exceptional treatment given that his problem is directly caused by his efforts to do volunteer production work for RGL[/quote]
This thread is just so weird, there were some events about RGL league staff being inconsistent in the past where I agreed with the complaints, but now you guys complain about RGL NOT being inconsistent? So you want some players to get preferential treatment over others because they support the league in some way etc.? That's a slippery slope and you know it. "Hey, that guy always casts some of our matches, let's overlook this demo infraction; hey, this guy is a 6s admin, let's just forget about them harassing others multiple times; hey, this guy donated $100 last week, let's overlook the time he used the Spy decloak script in the official." etc. you get what I mean.
This just seems like someone who has more backing in the community/is more "popular" got banned and you don't agree with it, I doubt this thread would exist otherwise and you couldn't care less about the actual rule itself. Admins shouldn't be biased in their decisions, don't be biased yourself.
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