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May I ask talk about the current pandemic?
posted in World Events
1
#1
0 Frags +

If this topic is against the rules of this platform, then remove the post. I know this isn't necessarily the best place to talk about this but every major social media platform sensors all discussion related to this.

For the past 1,5 years I have been very worried with where we seem to be going with this pandemic. I'm not saying anything for certain, but to me it looks a lot like all that's going on has nothing to do with our safety. It makes me confused that we seem to currently live in a world, where there is only one scientific truth, a fact, that absolutely cannot be questioned. Even medical professionals, virologists etc. get sensored if their opinion on this pandemic and how it is handled opposes the prevailing consensus. I'm really worried, how people are now just giving away their rights with no questions and we slowly seem to be heading into a global totalitaristic surveillance state. Once you give your rights away, you may never get them back.

Some people(tinfoil people) in the beginning of 2020 already told that this has nothing to do with our safety, but with control. They told that there will eventually be obligatory injections and passes including them. That eventually you will have to take an experimental shot to be able participate in society, to enter stores, to go to the gym, to go to work etc. Some of these people told beforehand, that even though authorities assure that once 70% have been shot up, we can go back to normal, that it won't stop at that. Facemasks, safety distances, and all other restrictions continue still. That this will be the New Normal. And this is how it so far is.

So if I may, I'd like to ask a couple questions.

Why can you not discuss this pandemic, the shots, or the effects of these restrictions on people and children at all? Since when has science found absolute facts, truths and theories, that no longer can't questioned at all? At least the little I've read about philosophy, being able to question everything is one of the major rules of science. Right now this isn't possible.

Why must people now take this experimental shot that surely doesn't seem to give immunity to the virus to travel into some countries? If you can receive and transit the virus even with the jab, then why? You can fly anywhere with the shot and still bring the "variants" with you, but the only difference is that now you can't just travel without the shot.

Why aren't we only injecting the elderly and those who are at risk to have very severe effects from the virus? Why are we pushing the injections onto children? At least in Finland, not a single under 30-year old have died due to this, and afaik not many have had to go to ICU.

Who will take responsibility if theres serious repercussions with the shot? Vaccine companies aren't liable for damages.

In some areas here, we've had more people in the hospital who had had the first shot(60% according to the media), than without one. We are talking here about the need of at least 3 shots to be protected from serious condition related to the virus but no promises of immunity. So we were originally promised that we'd go back to normal after 70% takes the shot. Now we're talking that actually these restrictions will still go on.

Here THL(our equivalent of CDC which directly is taking directives from WHO) admits, that it doesn't matter what the reason of death is, if you die within a month after a positive test result, you'll be counted as a covid related death. In total we have 993 covid-related deaths in Finland and over 2000 serious adverse effect reports from jabs, at least 100 of which are vaccine-related deaths.(It is also estimated that only around 10% of adverse effects are reported, and since it's assured this shot is safe, people don't often consider that their ill-effects might be related to the shot.) Although, for some reason recently, the official site here(Fimea) handling the vaccine injury reports have removed the actual numbers related to deaths and just reports the total amount of serious adverse effect reports where the the deaths are included. Now even though it's only 2000 serious adverse effects from 3,77 million shots, it's still more than 10 times than what we had with the swine flu-shot in 2009-2010(and then THL called to immediately stop the injections) Now they've been quiet.

There has not been a single point at least here, where hospitals or ICUs have been overwhelmed, yet we still have restrictions that have major negative effects on restaurants etc. I'm not entirely sure of the rest of the world so I won't make any conclusions based on this fact.

Why is mainstream media quiet about all these huges protests related to these restrictions? Unless I'm wrong, french people aren't exactly very happy about the recently introduced covid pass, but even with a shitton of people protesting on the streets their government doesn't give a shit. They are also considering the pass here, which I'm not very fond of.

So far everything I've been worried about since the beginning has happened. And I don't think this current development into a very dystopian looking world is going to stop any time soon, as long as we accept it. But of course I hope I am just wrong about all of this.

Whatever the situation is, I hope everyone is safe and making it through these difficult times we live in.
E: whoops fucked up the title.

If this topic is against the rules of this platform, then remove the post. I know this isn't necessarily the best place to talk about this but every major social media platform sensors all discussion related to this.

For the past 1,5 years I have been very worried with where we seem to be going with this pandemic. I'm not saying anything for certain, but to me it looks a lot like all that's going on has nothing to do with our safety. It makes me confused that we seem to currently live in a world, where there is only one scientific truth, a fact, that absolutely cannot be questioned. Even medical professionals, virologists etc. get sensored if their opinion on this pandemic and how it is handled opposes the prevailing consensus. I'm really worried, how people are now just giving away their rights with no questions and we slowly seem to be heading into a global totalitaristic surveillance state. Once you give your rights away, you may never get them back.

Some people(tinfoil people) in the beginning of 2020 already told that this has nothing to do with our safety, but with control. They told that there will eventually be obligatory injections and passes including them. That eventually you will have to take an experimental shot to be able participate in society, to enter stores, to go to the gym, to go to work etc. Some of these people told beforehand, that even though authorities assure that once 70% have been shot up, we can go back to normal, that it won't stop at that. Facemasks, safety distances, and all other restrictions continue still. That this will be the New Normal. And this is how it so far is.

So if I may, I'd like to ask a couple questions.

Why can you not discuss this pandemic, the shots, or the effects of these restrictions on people and children at all? Since when has science found absolute facts, truths and theories, that no longer can't questioned at all? At least the little I've read about philosophy, being able to question everything is one of the major rules of science. Right now this isn't possible.

Why must people now take this experimental shot that surely doesn't seem to give immunity to the virus to travel into some countries? If you can receive and transit the virus even with the jab, then why? You can fly anywhere with the shot and still bring the "variants" with you, but the only difference is that now you can't just travel without the shot.

Why aren't we only injecting the elderly and those who are at risk to have very severe effects from the virus? Why are we pushing the injections onto children? At least in Finland, not a single under 30-year old have died due to this, and afaik not many have had to go to ICU.

Who will take responsibility if theres serious repercussions with the shot? Vaccine companies aren't liable for damages.

In some areas here, we've had more people in the hospital who had had the first shot(60% according to the media), than without one. We are talking here about the need of at least 3 shots to be protected from serious condition related to the virus but no promises of immunity. So we were originally promised that we'd go back to normal after 70% takes the shot. Now we're talking that actually these restrictions will still go on.

Here THL(our equivalent of CDC which directly is taking directives from WHO) admits, that it doesn't matter what the reason of death is, if you die within a month after a positive test result, you'll be counted as a covid related death. In total we have 993 covid-related deaths in Finland and over 2000 serious adverse effect reports from jabs, at least 100 of which are vaccine-related deaths.(It is also estimated that only around 10% of adverse effects are reported, and since it's assured this shot is safe, people don't often consider that their ill-effects might be related to the shot.) Although, for some reason recently, the official site here(Fimea) handling the vaccine injury reports have removed the actual numbers related to deaths and just reports the total amount of serious adverse effect reports where the the deaths are included. Now even though it's only 2000 serious adverse effects from 3,77 million shots, it's still more than 10 times than what we had with the swine flu-shot in 2009-2010(and then THL called to immediately stop the injections) Now they've been quiet.

There has not been a single point at least here, where hospitals or ICUs have been overwhelmed, yet we still have restrictions that have major negative effects on restaurants etc. I'm not entirely sure of the rest of the world so I won't make any conclusions based on this fact.

Why is mainstream media quiet about all these huges protests related to these restrictions? Unless I'm wrong, french people aren't exactly very happy about the recently introduced covid pass, but even with a shitton of people protesting on the streets their government doesn't give a shit. They are also considering the pass here, which I'm not very fond of.

So far everything I've been worried about since the beginning has happened. And I don't think this current development into a very dystopian looking world is going to stop any time soon, as long as we accept it. But of course I hope I am just wrong about all of this.

Whatever the situation is, I hope everyone is safe and making it through these difficult times we live in.
E: whoops fucked up the title.
2
#2
115 Frags +

https://img.ifunny.co/images/2d9485be2bcb3b68f33ecbe3885f24f42f3ffaea3bc05a2925572dafa66f7f79_1.jpg

[img]https://img.ifunny.co/images/2d9485be2bcb3b68f33ecbe3885f24f42f3ffaea3bc05a2925572dafa66f7f79_1.jpg[/img]
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#3
7 Frags +

I think discussion on it should be allowed, as it should on pretty much any topic. I also think it's fair that people are skeptical about the vaccine given its short testing period and that some people think the risks don't justify the means.

But at the same time, the reality of being a person is that you play by the rules of the governments. Their laws. You can protest and try change them, but in the main that's how the world works so not much we can do.

I think discussion on it should be allowed, as it should on pretty much any topic. I also think it's fair that people are skeptical about the vaccine given its short testing period and that some people think the risks don't justify the means.

But at the same time, the reality of being a person is that you play by the rules of the governments. Their laws. You can protest and try change them, but in the main that's how the world works so not much we can do.
4
#4
18 Frags +

bro that's a lot of fucking words but i assure you wearing a mask doesn't mean you're under control

bro that's a lot of fucking words but i assure you wearing a mask doesn't mean you're under control
5
#5
37 Frags +

* vaccine benefits are higher than the risks for most people. Young people aren't being given AZ/Janssen which are the most concerning ones regarding coagulation problems etc. Pfizer/Moderna are essentially safe with the best results.

* vaccine does NOT stop you from contracting covid or giving it to others. what it does is mitigate the possibility of severe symptoms. In the Netherlands where the vaccination process is very advanced, there have been case spikes over the past few weeks but with no significant increase in deaths .

* in my personal opinion, you should still wear masks in public places, but up to you. KN-95 masks offer decent protection, surgical masks are more to protect others, but if everyone is masked up in one location, you should be fine. Cloth masks are not good enough.

Overall it's a risk/benefit situation that we're looking at here. You are entitled to be concerned with the vaccine's long term effects, since it's clear that a lot of the steps usually taken to implement a new vaccine haven't been taken here due to time constraints. But Covid's long term effects are nothing to laugh about either, just google 'long covid' and you will see my point. I personally see it as a necessary risk, and hope that over the next few years the research will continue so we reach a point where the vaccine is safer and more effective than it is now.

* vaccine benefits are higher than the risks for most people. Young people aren't being given AZ/Janssen which are the most concerning ones regarding coagulation problems etc. Pfizer/Moderna are essentially safe with the best results.

* vaccine does NOT stop you from contracting covid or giving it to others. what it does is mitigate the possibility of severe symptoms. In the Netherlands where the vaccination process is very advanced, there have been case spikes over the past few weeks but with no significant increase in deaths .

* in my personal opinion, you should still wear masks in public places, but up to you. KN-95 masks offer decent protection, surgical masks are more to protect others, but if everyone is masked up in one location, you should be fine. Cloth masks are not good enough.

Overall it's a risk/benefit situation that we're looking at here. You are entitled to be concerned with the vaccine's long term effects, since it's clear that a lot of the steps usually taken to implement a new vaccine haven't been taken here due to time constraints. But Covid's long term effects are nothing to laugh about either, just google 'long covid' and you will see my point. I personally see it as a necessary risk, and hope that over the next few years the research will continue so we reach a point where the vaccine is safer and more effective than it is now.
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#6
-9 Frags +
4hp* vaccine benefits are higher than the risks for most people. Young people aren't being given AZ/Janssen which are the most concerning ones regarding coagulation problems etc. Pfizer/Moderna are essentially safe with the best results.

* vaccine does NOT stop you from contracting covid or giving it to others. what it does is mitigate the possibility of severe symptoms. In the Netherlands where the vaccination process is very advanced, there have been case spikes over the past few weeks but with no significant increase in deaths .

* in my personal opinion, you should still wear masks in public places, but up to you. KN-95 masks offer decent protection, surgical masks are more to protect others, but if everyone is masked up in one location, you should be fine. Cloth masks are not good enough.

Overall it's a risk/benefit situation that we're looking at here. You are entitled to be concerned with the vaccine's long term effects, since it's clear that a lot of the steps usually taken to implement a new vaccine haven't been taken here due to time constraints. But Covid's long term effects are nothing to laugh about either, just google 'long covid' and you will see my point. I personally see it as a necessary risk, and hope that over the next few years the research will continue so we reach a point where the vaccine is safer and more effective than it is now.

Yeah. I just find the vaccine passes very questionable. I still think you should be allowed to decide yourself whether or not to get vaccinated. If the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus, I find it weird that we're introducing passes which won't make the vaccine mandatory on paper, only if you want to participate in society in any way.

In the end, we don't know yet whether the vaccine could have severe or unpredictable side effects in 1 or 2 years. If you don't get any sort of promising immunity from the vaccine so far, then I'd prefer not to introduce a covid pass and keep the shot voluntary. I do get your point though, and I'm not arguing against vaccinating people who are at greater risk of getting severe effects.

[quote=4hp]* vaccine benefits are higher than the risks for most people. Young people aren't being given AZ/Janssen which are the most concerning ones regarding coagulation problems etc. Pfizer/Moderna are essentially safe with the best results.

* vaccine does NOT stop you from contracting covid or giving it to others. what it does is mitigate the possibility of severe symptoms. In the Netherlands where the vaccination process is very advanced, there have been case spikes over the past few weeks but with no significant increase in deaths .

* in my personal opinion, you should still wear masks in public places, but up to you. KN-95 masks offer decent protection, surgical masks are more to protect others, but if everyone is masked up in one location, you should be fine. Cloth masks are not good enough.

Overall it's a risk/benefit situation that we're looking at here. You are entitled to be concerned with the vaccine's long term effects, since it's clear that a lot of the steps usually taken to implement a new vaccine haven't been taken here due to time constraints. But Covid's long term effects are nothing to laugh about either, just google 'long covid' and you will see my point. I personally see it as a necessary risk, and hope that over the next few years the research will continue so we reach a point where the vaccine is safer and more effective than it is now.[/quote]
Yeah. I just find the vaccine passes very questionable. I still think you should be allowed to decide yourself whether or not to get vaccinated. If the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus, I find it weird that we're introducing passes which won't make the vaccine mandatory on paper, only if you want to participate in society in any way.

In the end, we don't know yet whether the vaccine could have severe or unpredictable side effects in 1 or 2 years. If you don't get any sort of promising immunity from the vaccine so far, then I'd prefer not to introduce a covid pass and keep the shot voluntary. I do get your point though, and I'm not arguing against vaccinating people who are at greater risk of getting severe effects.
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#7
47 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480808869598199818/874856245792759868/image0.png

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480808869598199818/874856245792759868/image0.png[/img]
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#8
32 Frags +

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/038/094/0a1.jpg

[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/038/094/0a1.jpg[/img]
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#9
5 Frags +
StylaxI think discussion on it should be allowed, as it should on pretty much any topic. I also think it's fair that people are skeptical about the vaccine given its short testing period and that some people think the risks don't justify the means.

But at the same time, the reality of being a person is that you play by the rules of the governments. Their laws. You can protest and try change them, but in the main that's how the world works so not much we can do.

Sure we have to play by governments rules, but we also have to draw lines. In the end it's up to people whether they allow governments fucking them over or not. Say if step by step we'd be starting to slip into a dystopian kind of society, where we'd have no rights, we'd all be total slaves with a few people controlling our lives entirely, it just happens and we let it?

[quote=Stylax]I think discussion on it should be allowed, as it should on pretty much any topic. I also think it's fair that people are skeptical about the vaccine given its short testing period and that some people think the risks don't justify the means.

But at the same time, the reality of being a person is that you play by the rules of the governments. Their laws. You can protest and try change them, but in the main that's how the world works so not much we can do.[/quote]
Sure we have to play by governments rules, but we also have to draw lines. In the end it's up to people whether they allow governments fucking them over or not. Say if step by step we'd be starting to slip into a dystopian kind of society, where we'd have no rights, we'd all be total slaves with a few people controlling our lives entirely, it just happens and we let it?
10
#10
1 Frags +
PuoskariStylaxI think discussion on it should be allowed, as it should on pretty much any topic. I also think it's fair that people are skeptical about the vaccine given its short testing period and that some people think the risks don't justify the means.

But at the same time, the reality of being a person is that you play by the rules of the governments. Their laws. You can protest and try change them, but in the main that's how the world works so not much we can do.
Sure we have to play by governments rules, but we also have to draw lines. In the end it's up to people whether they allow governments fucking them over or not. Say if step by step we'd be starting to slip into a dystopian kind of society, where we'd have no rights, we'd all be total slaves with a few people controlling our lives entirely, it just happens and we let it?

Yeah I mean I said you can protest and try and change them, but my point was that pushing vaccines with legal apparatus isn't actually so strange if you think about it.

I mean, they can you essentially lock you in a box (prison) for the rest of their life if you disobey certain laws and ban certain substances, so it's not like the government doesn't dictate what you do with your body already..

[quote=Puoskari][quote=Stylax]I think discussion on it should be allowed, as it should on pretty much any topic. I also think it's fair that people are skeptical about the vaccine given its short testing period and that some people think the risks don't justify the means.

But at the same time, the reality of being a person is that you play by the rules of the governments. Their laws. You can protest and try change them, but in the main that's how the world works so not much we can do.[/quote]
Sure we have to play by governments rules, but we also have to draw lines. In the end it's up to people whether they allow governments fucking them over or not. Say if step by step we'd be starting to slip into a dystopian kind of society, where we'd have no rights, we'd all be total slaves with a few people controlling our lives entirely, it just happens and we let it?[/quote]

Yeah I mean I said you can protest and try and change them, but my point was that pushing vaccines with legal apparatus isn't actually so strange if you think about it.

I mean, they can you essentially lock you in a box (prison) for the rest of their life if you disobey certain laws and ban certain substances, so it's not like the government doesn't dictate what you do with your body already..
11
#11
26 Frags +
PuoskariIf the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus

Don't think it's correct to say it doesn't stop the spread of the disease - at least that isn't the current census. I've just googled the question and found this statement in 30 seconds.

Two studies1,2 from Israel, posted as preprints on 16 July, find that two doses of the vaccine made by pharmaceutical company Pfizer, based in New York City, and biotechnology company BioNTech, based in Mainz, Germany, are 81% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections. And vaccinated people who do get infected are up to 78% less likely to spread the virus to household members than are unvaccinated people. Overall, this adds up to very high protection against transmission, say researchers.

Links if you care enough to read.
Original link
1.
2.

[quote=Puoskari]If the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus[/quote]
Don't think it's correct to say it doesn't stop the spread of the disease - at least that isn't the current census. I've just googled the question and found this statement in 30 seconds.

Two studies1,2 from Israel, posted as preprints on 16 July, find that two doses of the vaccine made by pharmaceutical company Pfizer, based in New York City, and biotechnology company BioNTech, based in Mainz, Germany, are 81% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections. And vaccinated people who do get infected are up to [u]78% less likely to spread the virus[/u] to household members than are unvaccinated people. Overall, this adds up to very high protection against transmission, say researchers.

Links if you care enough to read.
[url=https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z#ref-CR1]Original link[/url]
[url=https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.12.21260377]1.[/url]
[url=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.13.21260393v1]2.[/url]
12
#12
-19 Frags +

it’s pretty ironic you have to ask permission to discuss arguably the most ubiquitously shared human experience in recent history

it’s pretty ironic you have to ask permission to discuss arguably the most ubiquitously shared human experience in recent history
13
#13
15 Frags +

To add to what domo and 4hp have said the protection against severe symptoms is the part that is nearly guaranteed (link with statistics of different vaccines, 100% against severe disease defined by the CDC and 95% defined by FDA. Even the new study that brought the efficacy down from 95% to 84% after 6 months still had the efficacy against severe disease at 97%. It is by no means 'only' for protecting ones self, hence the reason governments all over the world are pushing for people to get vaccinated to stop widespread cases, but the reduction in hospitalization obviously is a huge bonus as well as we all know hospitals all over the world were completely full pre-vaccine.

I'm not sure if the vaccine cards are the right way to do it as, at least in the us, it disproportionately affects black communities which are understandably skeptical of vaccines after the horrendous 'human experimentation' with syphilis. However, if it leads to more people getting vaccinated and stop the second wave with delta variant I can definitely see the reason they are doing it. NYC for example was fucking ravaged by covid so it's totally fair they're being extra cautious now imo

To add to what domo and 4hp have said the protection against severe symptoms is the part that is nearly guaranteed ([url=https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison]link with statistics of different vaccines[/url], 100% against severe disease defined by the CDC and 95% defined by FDA. Even the new study that brought the efficacy down from 95% to 84% after 6 months still had the efficacy against severe disease at 97%. It is by no means 'only' for protecting ones self, hence the reason governments all over the world are pushing for people to get vaccinated to stop widespread cases, but the reduction in hospitalization obviously is a huge bonus as well as we all know hospitals all over the world were completely full pre-vaccine.

I'm not sure if the vaccine cards are the right way to do it as, at least in the us, it disproportionately affects black communities which are understandably skeptical of vaccines after the horrendous 'human experimentation' with syphilis. However, if it leads to more people getting vaccinated and stop the second wave with delta variant I can definitely see the reason they are doing it. NYC for example was fucking ravaged by covid so it's totally fair they're being extra cautious now imo
14
#14
21 Frags +

It's always good to ask questions and be critical about everything you read.

PuoskariWhy can you not discuss this pandemic, the shots, or the effects of these restrictions on people and children at all?
...
Why is mainstream media quiet about all these huges protests related to these restrictions?

This is a tough dilemma. On the one hand you should be able to question everything and be able to believe what you want to believe. On the other hand, people not following the rules because they choose to believe the pandemic is a hoax have been forming a big problem in tackling the pandemic because they spread the virus much more easily and in that way also negatively affect everyone who is following the rules. That's a reason to try to avoid discussions as much as possible.

PuoskariWhy must people now take this experimental shot that surely doesn't seem to give immunity to the virus to travel into some countries? If you can receive and transit the virus even with the jab, then why?

Vaccines do reduce the chance of transmitting the virus (see Domo's post). And besides that, the chances of you getting sick yourself are significantly reduced.

PuoskariWhy aren't we only injecting the elderly and those who are at risk to have very severe effects from the virus? Why are we pushing the injections onto children?

Besides reasons considering group immunity, I think you're downplaying the effect that infection with the virus can have on young adults. I personally know three people in their 20s who have had trouble with breathing after any slight form of physical activity, in addition to feeling tired for months after getting infected. Additionally, we don't know what the long-term effects of infection can be. This can be said for the vaccines as well, but I personally would rather gamble on a vaccine designed to help my immune system rather than a virus that can damage your lungs.

PuoskariThere has not been a single point at least here, where hospitals or ICUs have been overwhelmed, yet we still have restrictions that have major negative effects on restaurants etc. I'm not entirely sure of the rest of the world so I won't make any conclusions based on this fact.

In the Netherlands, our ICUs were overwhelmed multiple times and we had to move some patients to German hospitals to deal with that. Many non-urgent operations had to be postponed for months. In Italy and some parts of the US, the situation was much worse even. And keep in mind: a lot of measures were already in place at that time, so it could have been 10x worse than it already was if that hadn't been the case.

PuoskariSo far everything I've been worried about since the beginning has happened. And I don't think this current development into a very dystopian looking world is going to stop any time soon, as long as we accept it. But of course I hope I am just wrong about all of this.

Although there are plenty of reasons to be worried about a dystopian world (look at China for example), I don't think this pandemic is a start to it. Measures taken by the government are slowly disappearing, so unless you believe that the vaccine contains a micro-chip, things are slowly returning back to normal (ignoring any ridiculous mutations that could form, but that's for another discussion).

I understand that some of these answers are things being said by government and/or scientists which you can either believe or not believe. Again it's good to be critical, but this counts for all different theories you can find online. Just because a dystopian future is quite likely to come eventually, that doesn't mean that the entire pandemic is likely to be related to it.

It's always good to ask questions and be critical about everything you read.
[quote=Puoskari]Why can you not discuss this pandemic, the shots, or the effects of these restrictions on people and children at all?
...
Why is mainstream media quiet about all these huges protests related to these restrictions?[/quote]
This is a tough dilemma. On the one hand you should be able to question everything and be able to believe what you want to believe. On the other hand, people not following the rules because they choose to believe the pandemic is a hoax have been forming a big problem in tackling the pandemic because they spread the virus much more easily and in that way also negatively affect everyone who is following the rules. That's a reason to try to avoid discussions as much as possible.

[quote=Puoskari]
Why must people now take this experimental shot that surely doesn't seem to give immunity to the virus to travel into some countries? If you can receive and transit the virus even with the jab, then why?[/quote]
Vaccines do reduce the chance of transmitting the virus (see Domo's post). And besides that, the chances of you getting sick yourself are significantly reduced.
[quote=Puoskari]Why aren't we only injecting the elderly and those who are at risk to have very severe effects from the virus? Why are we pushing the injections onto children?[/quote]
Besides reasons considering group immunity, I think you're downplaying the effect that infection with the virus can have on young adults. I personally know three people in their 20s who have had trouble with breathing after any slight form of physical activity, in addition to feeling tired for months after getting infected. Additionally, we don't know what the long-term effects of infection can be. This can be said for the vaccines as well, but I personally would rather gamble on a vaccine designed to help my immune system rather than a virus that can damage your lungs.

[quote=Puoskari]There has not been a single point at least here, where hospitals or ICUs have been overwhelmed, yet we still have restrictions that have major negative effects on restaurants etc. I'm not entirely sure of the rest of the world so I won't make any conclusions based on this fact.[/quote]
In the Netherlands, our ICUs were overwhelmed multiple times and we had to move some patients to German hospitals to deal with that. Many non-urgent operations had to be postponed for months. In Italy and some parts of the US, the situation was much worse even. And keep in mind: a lot of measures were already in place at that time, so it could have been 10x worse than it already was if that hadn't been the case.

[quote=Puoskari]So far everything I've been worried about since the beginning has happened. And I don't think this current development into a very dystopian looking world is going to stop any time soon, as long as we accept it. But of course I hope I am just wrong about all of this.[/quote]
Although there are plenty of reasons to be worried about a dystopian world (look at China for example), I don't think this pandemic is a start to it. Measures taken by the government are slowly disappearing, so unless you believe that the vaccine contains a micro-chip, things are slowly returning back to normal (ignoring any ridiculous mutations that could form, but that's for another discussion).

I understand that some of these answers are things being said by government and/or scientists which you can either believe or not believe. Again it's good to be critical, but this counts for all different theories you can find online. Just because a dystopian future is quite likely to come eventually, that doesn't mean that the entire pandemic is likely to be related to it.
15
#15
19 Frags +
puoskari this has nothing to do with our safety, but with control. They told that there will eventually be obligatory injections and passes including them. That eventually you will have to take an experimental shot to be able participate in society, to enter stores, to go to the gym, to go to work etc.

This is something I've never really understood. It seems like a really bad move for most governments to put a lot of restrictions on people which end up being really bad for their economies, and involves a huge amount of spending and also international collaboration, just for some idea of "control" that doesn't seem to really benefit them in any way. The only control that's being exerted at the moment is the ability to tell people not to go to public spaces which doesn't seem like something that would be in their best interest in the first place without covid. For this to make any sense there needs to be something more tangible that governments are gaining imo.

puoskariHere THL(our equivalent of CDC which directly is taking directives from WHO) admits, that it doesn't matter what the reason of death is, if you die within a month after a positive test result, you'll be counted as a covid related death. In total we have 993 covid-related deaths in Finland and over 2000 serious adverse effect reports from jabs, at least 100 of which are vaccine-related deaths.

I think the reason this is done is because most people die of heart failure, brain haemorrhage, asphyxiation etc. it's often pretty hard to point and that and say "the virus caused the heart failure" or "the vaccine caused the heart failure" etc. I don't know about Finland specifically but I believe most places count vaccine deaths similarly as "people who died shortly after having the vaccine where there isn't some obvious other cause".

If we think that the two death numbers are at all comparable, then you've got 100 deaths with 2 mil vaccines (incidence rate of 1 in 20000, and it's probably lower because I haven't looked at the number of people who just had 1 dose, and the death figures might include that), and ~1000 with ~113k total Covid cases reported in Finland (incidence rate of a bit under 1 in 100). I don't see data anywhere for hospitalizations in Finland, but again the incidence of hospitalization with the virus has been significantly higher than the incidence of hospitalization after taking the vaccine in other countries.

Obviously there are a lot more factors that play into your risk like age, state of health etc. but even though the numbers we have are pretty ballpark, the fact that there's a 2 orders of magnitude difference means it's almost certainly safer to get a vaccine than get covid. It's pretty understandable to be worried about the severe side effects from the vaccine, but it's worth the risk in most cases. The only reason I can think that getting a vaccine would be worse for you is if you think your chances of actually getting covid are extremely low, and that can change pretty rapidly if for example there's a new wave in Finland.

puoskari At least in Finland, not a single under 30-year old have died due to this, and afaik not many have had to go to ICU.

I might do some reading on the breakdown of adverse effects per age group. I definitely know a few people in their 20s who have had severe effects, one who was on a ventilator, then got a pseudomonas infection in the lungs (fortunately there were antibiotics that worked) and who is still having severe breathing problems over a year later. That's anecdotal though so it doesn't mean much.

[quote=puoskari] this has nothing to do with our safety, but with control. They told that there will eventually be obligatory injections and passes including them. That eventually you will have to take an experimental shot to be able participate in society, to enter stores, to go to the gym, to go to work etc.[/quote]

This is something I've never really understood. It seems like a really bad move for most governments to put a lot of restrictions on people which end up being really bad for their economies, and involves a huge amount of spending and also international collaboration, just for some idea of "control" that doesn't seem to really benefit them in any way. The only control that's being exerted at the moment is the ability to tell people not to go to public spaces which doesn't seem like something that would be in their best interest in the first place without covid. For this to make any sense there needs to be something more tangible that governments are gaining imo.

[quote=puoskari]Here THL(our equivalent of CDC which directly is taking directives from WHO) admits, that it doesn't matter what the reason of death is, if you die within a month after a positive test result, you'll be counted as a covid related death. In total we have 993 covid-related deaths in Finland and over 2000 serious adverse effect reports from jabs, at least 100 of which are vaccine-related deaths.[/quote]

I think the reason this is done is because most people die of heart failure, brain haemorrhage, asphyxiation etc. it's often pretty hard to point and that and say "the virus caused the heart failure" or "the vaccine caused the heart failure" etc. I don't know about Finland specifically but I believe most places count vaccine deaths similarly as "people who died shortly after having the vaccine where there isn't some obvious other cause".

If we think that the two death numbers are at all comparable, then you've got 100 deaths with 2 mil vaccines (incidence rate of 1 in 20000, and it's probably lower because I haven't looked at the number of people who just had 1 dose, and the death figures might include that), and ~1000 with ~113k total Covid cases reported in Finland (incidence rate of a bit under 1 in 100). I don't see data anywhere for hospitalizations in Finland, but again the incidence of hospitalization with the virus has been significantly higher than the incidence of hospitalization after taking the vaccine in other countries.

Obviously there are a lot more factors that play into your risk like age, state of health etc. but even though the numbers we have are pretty ballpark, the fact that there's a 2 orders of magnitude difference means it's almost certainly safer to get a vaccine than get covid. It's pretty understandable to be worried about the severe side effects from the vaccine, but it's worth the risk in most cases. The only reason I can think that getting a vaccine would be worse for you is if you think your chances of actually getting covid are extremely low, and that can change pretty rapidly if for example there's a new wave in Finland.

[quote=puoskari] At least in Finland, not a single under 30-year old have died due to this, and afaik not many have had to go to ICU.[/quote]

I might do some reading on the breakdown of adverse effects per age group. I definitely know a few people in their 20s who have had severe effects, one who was on a ventilator, then got a pseudomonas infection in the lungs (fortunately there were antibiotics that worked) and who is still having severe breathing problems over a year later. That's anecdotal though so it doesn't mean much.
16
#16
0 Frags +

leaky vaccine
dont take ivermectin
povidone iodine doesnt work
once you get fully vaccinated dont wear a mask

leaky vaccine
dont take ivermectin
povidone iodine doesnt work
once you get fully vaccinated dont wear a mask
17
#17
12 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/qhRAvWf.png

[img]https://i.imgur.com/qhRAvWf.png[/img]
18
#18
12 Frags +

bro why would you not want a microchip inside you that sounds dope

bro why would you not want a microchip inside you that sounds dope
19
#19
9 Frags +

Nice job guys, the government is gonna shut down tftv now....

Nice job guys, the government is gonna shut down tftv now....
20
#20
48 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/859292895881330688/874904341247590400/IMG_20210810_233700.jpg

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/859292895881330688/874904341247590400/IMG_20210810_233700.jpg[/img]
21
#21
6 Frags +

what i took away from the pandemic is that a lot of people are dumb as fuck

what i took away from the pandemic is that a lot of people are dumb as fuck
22
#22
22 Frags +

TLDR puo:

It's good to be skeptical of everything you read and hear in life, but don't let skepticism blind you from what people can actually prove to be true vs what people claim to be true. Be free flowing with your opinions and beliefs given the evidence on the day.

TLDR puo:

It's good to be skeptical of everything you read and hear in life, but don't let skepticism blind you from what people can actually prove to be true vs what people claim to be true. Be free flowing with your opinions and beliefs given the evidence on the day.
23
#23
28 Frags +
PuoskariThere has not been a single point at least here, where hospitals or ICUs have been overwhelmed, yet we still have restrictions that have major negative effects on restaurants etc.

congrats, your preventative measures worked well enough that you can naively ask if they made any difference. lots of the rest of the world isn't that lucky

[quote=Puoskari]There has not been a single point at least here, where hospitals or ICUs have been overwhelmed, yet we still have restrictions that have major negative effects on restaurants etc.[/quote]

congrats, your preventative measures worked well enough that you can naively ask if they made any difference. lots of the rest of the world isn't that lucky
24
#24
38 Frags +

https://files.catbox.moe/kxka77.png

[img]https://files.catbox.moe/kxka77.png[/img]
25
#25
1 Frags +
bearodactylTo add to what domo and 4hp have said the protection against severe symptoms is the part that is nearly guaranteed (link with statistics of different vaccines, 100% against severe disease defined by the CDC and 95% defined by FDA. Even the new study that brought the efficacy down from 95% to 84% after 6 months still had the efficacy against severe disease at 97%. It is by no means 'only' for protecting ones self, hence the reason governments all over the world are pushing for people to get vaccinated to stop widespread cases, but the reduction in hospitalization obviously is a huge bonus as well as we all know hospitals all over the world were completely full pre-vaccine.

I'm not sure if the vaccine cards are the right way to do it as, at least in the us, it disproportionately affects black communities which are understandably skeptical of vaccines after the horrendous 'human experimentation' with syphilis. However, if it leads to more people getting vaccinated and stop the second wave with delta variant I can definitely see the reason they are doing it. NYC for example was fucking ravaged by covid so it's totally fair they're being extra cautious now imo

Yeah I'm aware of the protection it gives from severe disease, I'm not opposing vaccinating people who belong in the group that's at risk of getting it which are mainly older people. Mainly children, to whom so far the disease hasn't seem to been as dangerous, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Here we have started vaccinating children between 12-17. I'm not sure how's it going around the world but I think it could be a good idea to at least wait a bit before starting vaccinating children. I understand the issue though if not enough people who belong to the risk group aren't getting the shot, the hospitals could overflow.

[quote=bearodactyl]To add to what domo and 4hp have said the protection against severe symptoms is the part that is nearly guaranteed ([url=https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison]link with statistics of different vaccines[/url], 100% against severe disease defined by the CDC and 95% defined by FDA. Even the new study that brought the efficacy down from 95% to 84% after 6 months still had the efficacy against severe disease at 97%. It is by no means 'only' for protecting ones self, hence the reason governments all over the world are pushing for people to get vaccinated to stop widespread cases, but the reduction in hospitalization obviously is a huge bonus as well as we all know hospitals all over the world were completely full pre-vaccine.

I'm not sure if the vaccine cards are the right way to do it as, at least in the us, it disproportionately affects black communities which are understandably skeptical of vaccines after the horrendous 'human experimentation' with syphilis. However, if it leads to more people getting vaccinated and stop the second wave with delta variant I can definitely see the reason they are doing it. NYC for example was fucking ravaged by covid so it's totally fair they're being extra cautious now imo[/quote]
Yeah I'm aware of the protection it gives from severe disease, I'm not opposing vaccinating people who belong in the group that's at risk of getting it which are mainly older people. Mainly children, to whom so far the disease hasn't seem to been as dangerous, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Here we have started vaccinating children between 12-17. I'm not sure how's it going around the world but I think it could be a good idea to at least wait a bit before starting vaccinating children. I understand the issue though if not enough people who belong to the risk group aren't getting the shot, the hospitals could overflow.
26
#26
7 Frags +
DomoCatFacePuoskariIf the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virusDon't think it's correct to say it doesn't stop the spread of the disease - at least that isn't the current census. I've just googled the question and found this statement in 30 seconds.

Two studies1,2 from Israel, posted as preprints on 16 July, find that two doses of the vaccine made by pharmaceutical company Pfizer, based in New York City, and biotechnology company BioNTech, based in Mainz, Germany, are 81% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections. And vaccinated people who do get infected are up to 78% less likely to spread the virus to household members than are unvaccinated people. Overall, this adds up to very high protection against transmission, say researchers.

Links if you care enough to read.
Original link
1.
2.

Alright, then I've probably jumped into a wrong conclusion based on mixed information our mainstream media has been saying. The news have been very mixed up here through out the year though regarding a lot of things related to this.

[quote=DomoCatFace][quote=Puoskari]If the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus[/quote]
Don't think it's correct to say it doesn't stop the spread of the disease - at least that isn't the current census. I've just googled the question and found this statement in 30 seconds.

Two studies1,2 from Israel, posted as preprints on 16 July, find that two doses of the vaccine made by pharmaceutical company Pfizer, based in New York City, and biotechnology company BioNTech, based in Mainz, Germany, are 81% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections. And vaccinated people who do get infected are up to [u]78% less likely to spread the virus[/u] to household members than are unvaccinated people. Overall, this adds up to very high protection against transmission, say researchers.

Links if you care enough to read.
[url=https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z#ref-CR1]Original link[/url]
[url=https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.07.12.21260377]1.[/url]
[url=https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.13.21260393v1]2.[/url][/quote]
Alright, then I've probably jumped into a wrong conclusion based on mixed information our mainstream media has been saying. The news have been very mixed up here through out the year though regarding a lot of things related to this.
27
#27
20 Frags +

it really is incredible how poorly the government has communicated things to people on nearly every single topic related to the pandemic
then take that spineless, indecisive, and vague source of information and layer sensationalist, agenda-driven media on top

at least in mkultra people got free lsd

it really is incredible how poorly the government has communicated things to people on nearly every single topic related to the pandemic
then take that spineless, indecisive, and vague source of information and layer sensationalist, agenda-driven media on top

at least in mkultra people got free lsd
28
#28
6 Frags +
DomoCatFaceTLDR puo:

It's good to be skeptical of everything you read and hear in life, but don't let skepticism blind you from what people can actually prove to be true vs what people claim to be true. Be free flowing with your opinions and beliefs given the evidence on the day.

Of course, I may have simply come down to wrong conclusions about this. The situation we currently have gets people mixed up, it's difficult for all of us. I might have been in the wrong here on this subject and I can admit it. I might have overreacted. I understand the situation is serious but also I'm afraid about governments abusing the power they've gained even after the pandemic fades. There's also been so much mixed up information in the news about most of the things here it gets hard to figure out what's going on.

In cases what b3ar presented, I can in some way understand the pass but not in here. But I'm grateful I could at least have a discussion here, so I can actually adjust my thinking, in case it's way off. I guess it's just an enormous red flag for me when censorship gets presented globally in a way like this.

I understand why it may seem necessary but personally, I'm just entirely against censorship. I don't think anything good ever comes out of it. I'm aware many people are very stuck within their thoughts and beliefs but no matter what, I think people should be allowed to present their opinions and have free discussion because no one is perfect. The beliefs come from somewhere and I think people need the chance to present their opinions, even if they are invalid, because the opinions won't change even if you make it illegal to present them. Things are simply evolving so quickly into a direction that has been worrying me.

edit: my point with the censorship was that I think people need to be allowed to express their thoughts and opinions, simply because people can evolve their thinking only if there's open discussion like we have here.

[quote=DomoCatFace]TLDR puo:

It's good to be skeptical of everything you read and hear in life, but don't let skepticism blind you from what people can actually prove to be true vs what people claim to be true. Be free flowing with your opinions and beliefs given the evidence on the day.[/quote]
Of course, I may have simply come down to wrong conclusions about this. The situation we currently have gets people mixed up, it's difficult for all of us. I might have been in the wrong here on this subject and I can admit it. I might have overreacted. I understand the situation is serious but also I'm afraid about governments abusing the power they've gained even after the pandemic fades. There's also been so much mixed up information in the news about most of the things here it gets hard to figure out what's going on.

In cases what b3ar presented, I can in some way understand the pass but not in here. But I'm grateful I could at least have a discussion here, so I can actually adjust my thinking, in case it's way off. I guess it's just an enormous red flag for me when censorship gets presented globally in a way like this.

I understand why it may seem necessary but personally, I'm just entirely against censorship. I don't think anything good ever comes out of it. I'm aware many people are very stuck within their thoughts and beliefs but no matter what, I think people should be allowed to present their opinions and have free discussion because no one is perfect. The beliefs come from somewhere and I think people need the chance to present their opinions, even if they are invalid, because the opinions won't change even if you make it illegal to present them. Things are simply evolving so quickly into a direction that has been worrying me.

edit: my point with the censorship was that I think people need to be allowed to express their thoughts and opinions, simply because people can evolve their thinking only if there's open discussion like we have here.
29
#29
23 Frags +
PuoskariIf the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus

this feels like a simple thing to understand but it seems to be a point that goes over the head of many online skeptics (bear with me, i do not know how to write this without sounding condescending).

if you get the vaccine, you are much less likely to catch the virus, and because you are much less likely to catch the virus, you are also less likely to spread the virus.

the point of the vaccine is to not only protect yourself but to protect others.

[quote=Puoskari]If the vaccine's function mainly is to protect from the severe effects, [i]and it doesn't necessarily stop spreading the virus[/i][/quote]
this feels like a simple thing to understand but it seems to be a point that goes over the head of many online skeptics (bear with me, i do not know how to write this without sounding condescending).

[i]if you get the vaccine, you are much less likely to catch the virus, and [b]because you are much less likely to catch the virus, you are also less likely to spread the virus.[/b][/i]

the point of the vaccine is to not only protect yourself but to protect others.
30
#30
6 Frags +
PuoskariYeah I'm aware of the protection it gives from severe disease, I'm not opposing vaccinating people who belong in the group that's at risk of getting it which are mainly older people. Mainly children, to whom so far the disease hasn't seem to been as dangerous, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Here we have started vaccinating children between 12-17. I'm not sure how's it going around the world but I think it could be a good idea to at least wait a bit before starting vaccinating children. I understand the issue though if not enough people who belong to the risk group aren't getting the shot, the hospitals could overflow.

I think what's really important to realize that there's people who can't get the vaccine because of underlying medical conditions (e.g see this). If they also fall in the risk group (which they most likely do) they basically don't really have any options and rely on others to get vaccinated to reduce their chance of dying.
I think a lot of people are aware that this is an issue facing a lot of younger children due to the anti-vacs "movement", (there's loads of information out there if one want's to read up on it), and since COVID most likely won't "vanish" in the next couple of years (if ever) this will be an issue facing a lot of people in the future as well as currently.

Also I'm not sure if it was said but like you also mentioned there are still death cases among people who have been vaccinated but you can further reduce these cases simply by more people getting vaccinated and also wearing masks and whatnot.

In general: getting vaccinated (or wearing a mask) isn't only about protecting yourself but also very much about protecting others.

[quote=Puoskari]
Yeah I'm aware of the protection it gives from severe disease, I'm not opposing vaccinating people who belong in the group that's at risk of getting it which are mainly older people. Mainly children, to whom so far the disease hasn't seem to been as dangerous, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Here we have started vaccinating children between 12-17. I'm not sure how's it going around the world but I think it could be a good idea to at least wait a bit before starting vaccinating children. I understand the issue though if not enough people who belong to the risk group aren't getting the shot, the hospitals could overflow.[/quote]
I think what's really important to realize that there's people who can't get the vaccine because of underlying medical conditions (e.g see [url=https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/clinical-considerations/covid-19-vaccines-us.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fvaccines%2Fcovid-19%2Finfo-by-product%2Fclinical-considerations.html#Contraindications]this[/url]). If they also fall in the risk group (which they most likely do) they basically don't really have any options and rely on others to get vaccinated to reduce their chance of dying.
I think a lot of people are aware that this is an issue facing a lot of younger children due to the anti-vacs "movement", (there's loads of information out there if one want's to read up on it), and since COVID most likely won't "vanish" in the next couple of years (if ever) this will be an issue facing a lot of people in the future as well as currently.

Also I'm not sure if it was said but like you also mentioned there are still death cases among people who have been vaccinated but you can further reduce these cases simply by more people getting vaccinated and also wearing masks and whatnot.

In general: getting vaccinated (or wearing a mask) isn't only about protecting yourself but also very much about protecting others.
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