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The Voice of the Open Player
31
#31
-5 Frags +
Tobudbkin hindsight lots of the time when i got made fun of it was because i had uneducated opinions and had an ego about those opinions. reading through this doc (i actually did read all of it), most of this shit (besides the mentoring part) seems to come from a place of inexperience.Thank you for taking the time to read it and providing feedback, I know I am an inexperienced player. This document is a culmination of all my knowledge about tf2 in only about 3500 hours. I believe that people with refined opinions deserve to be listened to - if you can elaborate which opinions of yours were dismissed in the past that would be great.

just because an opinion is refined doesnt mean it isnt dogshit. theres a whole lot of eloquent racists out there but theyre still racist, im not telling you to communicate better im saying u need to realize u dont know shit about this game compared to most of the people making actual decisions

[quote=Tobu][quote=dbk]in hindsight lots of the time when i got made fun of it was because i had uneducated opinions and had an ego about those opinions. reading through this doc (i actually did read all of it), most of this shit (besides the mentoring part) seems to come from a place of inexperience.[/quote]
Thank you for taking the time to read it and providing feedback, I know I am an inexperienced player. This document is a culmination of all my knowledge about tf2 in only about 3500 hours. I believe that people with refined opinions deserve to be listened to - if you can elaborate which opinions of yours were dismissed in the past that would be great.[/quote]
just because an opinion is refined doesnt mean it isnt dogshit. theres a whole lot of eloquent racists out there but theyre still racist, im not telling you to communicate better im saying u need to realize u dont know shit about this game compared to most of the people making actual decisions
32
#32
7 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQoOqN32Vw0

unironically must watch video

2. Mute button, hud_saytext_time 0 already exist. steam censor might work i haven't checked. Why do we need someone to develop a plugin when the concept already exists in game?

Anyone can make a playlist for slin's videos in whatever organization they choose. 5,7, 9 all seem to be problems with the person who wants the content. It's really not that hard to search for whatever you want.

10. Fuck gxq they already got their chance. Sinatraa had an organization that signed a contract with him and enough money to beat the toxicity out of him if they wanted to.

11. I don't really know what you want tftv to do. You're in the wrong place if you're asking for more casual tf2 youtube videos.

12 is a lost cause. Why would anyone who works with the most prestigious video developers work on a 12 year old game with spaghetti code that's impossible to understand and has a playerbase of like 10k people max.

14. Having a season long mentor is a rare occurance. Asking a friend who's better than you for a demo review is way more realistic than expecting people to commit another hour or two a week to teach people how to play a video game. You can ask comp players to give more time but people have jobs and shit.

Try asking if RGL needs any help compiling tutorials/info or building the mindset you want within your own team.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQoOqN32Vw0[/youtube]
unironically must watch video

2. Mute button, hud_saytext_time 0 already exist. steam censor might work i haven't checked. Why do we need someone to develop a plugin when the concept already exists in game?

Anyone can make a playlist for slin's videos in whatever organization they choose. 5,7, 9 all seem to be problems with the person who wants the content. It's really not that hard to search for whatever you want.

10. Fuck gxq they already got their chance. Sinatraa had an organization that signed a contract with him and enough money to beat the toxicity out of him if they wanted to.

11. I don't really know what you want tftv to do. You're in the wrong place if you're asking for more casual tf2 youtube videos.

12 is a lost cause. Why would anyone who works with the most prestigious video developers work on a 12 year old game with spaghetti code that's impossible to understand and has a playerbase of like 10k people max.

14. Having a season long mentor is a rare occurance. Asking a friend who's better than you for a demo review is way more realistic than expecting people to commit another hour or two a week to teach people how to play a video game. You can ask comp players to give more time but people have jobs and shit.

Try asking if RGL needs any help compiling tutorials/info or building the mindset you want within your own team.
33
#33
10 Frags +
hamahamthe beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least

i thought you were a changed man, brother... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766063892970864652/779643002665959434/Untitled.jpg

[quote=hamaham]the beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least[/quote]
i thought you were a changed man, brother... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766063892970864652/779643002665959434/Untitled.jpg
34
#34
24 Frags +

players who already play comp watching youtube videos will not grow the game
having more mentors will not grow the game
slin's editing will not grow the game
making pugchamp teams worse will not grow the game
censoring swear words is already a default game function
saying "gamesense makes u good" (9) isnt even a suggestion ????

i think ur looking at this from the pov of what you want as someone who already plays comp, but for the game to not be dead we literally only need more non-comp players to pick up and try/watch comp. this will probably not happen because valve matchmaking did more to turn people away from comp than we can probably ever recover lol. the number of casuals who i asked about comp and they say its shit, purely because of the awful first impression from playing first-to-two on vanguard vs a hacker and 3 pyros after a 40 minute wait time is so high, and these people dont even know about real third party comp.
popular esports have their literal ready-to-play competitive format front and center and this perpetuates players, viewers, everything. tf2 players have to 1. be interested in comp 2. somehow not immediately give up after playing the shite in-game version 3. google lots of stuff to find out where/how u can actually play it 4. install custom huds, configs, net settings, turn on a bunch of adv options to not be at an inherent disadvantage to every comp player etc. etc.

players who already play comp watching youtube videos will not grow the game
having more mentors will not grow the game
slin's editing will not grow the game
making pugchamp teams worse will not grow the game
censoring swear words is already a default game function
saying "gamesense makes u good" (9) isnt even a suggestion ????

i think ur looking at this from the pov of what you want as someone who already plays comp, but for the game to not be dead we literally only need more non-comp players to pick up and try/watch comp. this will probably not happen because valve matchmaking did more to turn people away from comp than we can probably ever recover lol. the number of casuals who i asked about comp and they say its shit, purely because of the awful first impression from playing first-to-two on vanguard vs a hacker and 3 pyros after a 40 minute wait time is so high, and these people dont even know about real third party comp.
popular esports have their literal ready-to-play competitive format front and center and this perpetuates players, viewers, everything. tf2 players have to 1. be interested in comp 2. somehow not immediately give up after playing the shite in-game version 3. google lots of stuff to find out where/how u can actually play it 4. install custom huds, configs, net settings, turn on a bunch of adv options to not be at an inherent disadvantage to every comp player etc. etc.
35
#35
TFNew
28 Frags +

csgo isnt only a tier 1 esport because Astralis lost their top spot (obviously it was a tier 1 esport before then anyway), Astralis lost their top spot because csgo is a tier 1 esport. if tf2 was a tier 1 esport with a ton of full time professionals trying hard to win and having the resources to do it, then froyotech would not be as dominant. i dont see how dethroning froyo is the path to making tf2 a tier 1 esport though, the stagnation exists because tf2 is not a tier 1 esport, rather than the stagnation being the reason tf2 is not a tier 1 esport.

like maybe the stagnation has a negative effect on the scene since it makes the competition less interesting to watch but my point still stands, its not the reason the game isnt tier 1.

(not saying froyo wouldnt be top-tier if tf2 was a tier 1 esport, just that this level of dominance probably wouldnt be possible if the game was csgo-size)

edit: this is responding to the point quoted in #26, didnt wanna quote it here since it'd make my post really long

csgo isnt only a tier 1 esport because Astralis lost their top spot (obviously it was a tier 1 esport before then anyway), Astralis lost their top spot [i] because [/i] csgo is a tier 1 esport. if tf2 was a tier 1 esport with a ton of full time professionals trying hard to win and having the resources to do it, then froyotech would not be as dominant. i dont see how dethroning froyo is the path to making tf2 a tier 1 esport though, the stagnation exists [i] because [/i] tf2 is not a tier 1 esport, rather than the stagnation being the [i] reason [/i] tf2 is not a tier 1 esport.

like maybe the stagnation has a negative effect on the scene since it makes the competition less interesting to watch but my point still stands, its not the reason the game isnt tier 1.

(not saying froyo wouldnt be top-tier if tf2 was a tier 1 esport, just that this level of dominance probably wouldnt be possible if the game was csgo-size)

edit: this is responding to the point quoted in #26, didnt wanna quote it here since it'd make my post really long
36
#36
-11 Frags +

Hello,

mikematThe bottom 3 RGL divs are individually bigger than the top 3 combined. We consistently ignore the biggest chunks of the playerbase 'cuz they're bad' then wonder where all the new players are.

I agree with you, I was not trying to imply it's okay to be dismissive of lower skilled players opinions or thoughts, I worded my message really badly as I had a very nostalgic feeling seeing a thread.
My English has gotten a bit worse but I genuinely meant that it's adorable when open people talk about the game because it invokes imagery of a keen individual who has just begun their journey through the competitive scene.

Tobupeople who equate self worth by accomplishments in a video game know even less

I agree with you

hi_i thought you were a changed man, brother... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766063892970864652/779643002665959434/Untitled.jpg

I will not respond to this but I'd like to make a comment that this is breaking the third rule of this forum.
Rules can be found here: https://www.tf.gg/s/rules

Kind Regards,
Hamaham

Hello,
[quote=mikemat]
The bottom 3 RGL divs are individually bigger than the top 3 combined. We consistently ignore the biggest chunks of the playerbase 'cuz they're bad' then wonder where all the new players are.[/quote]
I agree with you, I was not trying to imply it's okay to be dismissive of lower skilled players opinions or thoughts, I worded my message really badly as I had a very nostalgic feeling seeing a thread.
My English has gotten a bit worse but I genuinely meant that it's adorable when open people talk about the game because it invokes imagery of a keen individual who has just begun their journey through the competitive scene.
[quote=Tobu]
people who equate self worth by accomplishments in a video game know even less[/quote]
I agree with you
[quote=hi_]
i thought you were a changed man, brother... https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/766063892970864652/779643002665959434/Untitled.jpg[/quote]
I will not respond to this but I'd like to make a comment that this is breaking the third rule of this forum.
Rules can be found here: [url=https://www.tf.gg/s/rules]https://www.tf.gg/s/rules[/url]

[i][b]Kind Regards,
Hamaham[/b][/i]
37
#37
-2 Frags +
Tobupeople who equate self worth by accomplishments in a video game know even lessHamahamI agree with you

I disagree with you

[quote=Tobu]
people who equate self worth by accomplishments in a video game know even less[/quote]
[quote=Hamaham]
I agree with you [/quote]

I disagree with you
38
#38
18 Frags +
Rebite
10. Fuck gxq they already got their chance.

yeah what phoxx, della, kuhnockers, and ekh0 did was really unforgiveable

[quote=Rebite]

10. Fuck gxq they already got their chance.
[/quote]
yeah what phoxx, della, kuhnockers, and ekh0 did was really unforgiveable
39
#39
0 Frags +
BumFreezeplayers who already play comp watching youtube videos will not grow the game
having more mentors will not grow the game
slin's editing will not grow the game
making pugchamp teams worse will not grow the game
censoring swear words is already a default game function
saying "gamesense makes u good" (9) isnt even a suggestion ????

i think ur looking at this from the pov of what you want as someone who already plays comp, but for the game to not be dead we literally only need more non-comp players to pick up and try/watch comp. this will probably not happen because valve matchmaking did more to turn people away from comp than we can probably ever recover lol. the number of casuals who i asked about comp and they say its shit, purely because of the awful first impression from playing first-to-two on vanguard vs a hacker and 3 pyros after a 40 minute wait time is so high, and these people dont even know about real third party comp.
popular esports have their literal ready-to-play competitive format front and center and this perpetuates players, viewers, everything. tf2 players have to 1. be interested in comp 2. somehow not immediately give up after playing the shite in-game version 3. google lots of stuff to find out where/how u can actually play it 4. install custom huds, configs, net settings, turn on a bunch of adv options to not be at an inherent disadvantage to every comp player etc. etc.

This is exactly why I wanted to push for valve's involvement, what if there was that 1% chance that valve still cared. Would we get a second shot? This time with RGL, the platform that accommodates for both new and high level players and all the experience and feedback against Valve Comp we've gathered since Meet your Match. I know valve has their own philosophy, but we would know what to input and this time, hopefully, get it right. Because its either that impossible shot or we make the competitive community as accessible and as healthy as possible for the players that are entering the scene right now. Because we are not growing.

[quote=BumFreeze]players who already play comp watching youtube videos will not grow the game
having more mentors will not grow the game
slin's editing will not grow the game
making pugchamp teams worse will not grow the game
censoring swear words is already a default game function
saying "gamesense makes u good" (9) isnt even a suggestion ????

i think ur looking at this from the pov of what you want as someone who already plays comp, but for the game to not be dead we literally only need more non-comp players to pick up and try/watch comp. this will probably not happen because valve matchmaking did more to turn people away from comp than we can probably ever recover lol. the number of casuals who i asked about comp and they say its shit, purely because of the awful first impression from playing first-to-two on vanguard vs a hacker and 3 pyros after a 40 minute wait time is so high, and these people dont even know about real third party comp.
popular esports have their literal ready-to-play competitive format front and center and this perpetuates players, viewers, everything. tf2 players have to 1. be interested in comp 2. somehow not immediately give up after playing the shite in-game version 3. google lots of stuff to find out where/how u can actually play it 4. install custom huds, configs, net settings, turn on a bunch of adv options to not be at an inherent disadvantage to every comp player etc. etc.[/quote]
This is exactly why I wanted to push for valve's involvement, what if there was that 1% chance that valve still cared. Would we get a second shot? This time with RGL, the platform that accommodates for both new and high level players and all the experience and feedback against Valve Comp we've gathered since Meet your Match. I know valve has their own philosophy, but we would know what to input and this time, hopefully, get it right. Because its either that impossible shot or we make the competitive community as accessible and as healthy as possible for the players that are entering the scene right now. Because we are not growing.
40
#40
8 Frags +

this theorycrafting is sad in 2020 to be honest lol

this theorycrafting is sad in 2020 to be honest lol
41
#41
2 Frags +

I would like to thank everybody in this thread for the criticism, if I can give a million upfrags to them I would. I wanted answers directly from the people who still have interest in this game and I got them and learned a lot.

I would like to thank everybody in this thread for the criticism, if I can give a million upfrags to them I would. I wanted answers directly from the people who still have interest in this game and I got them and learned a lot.
42
#42
0 Frags +
Rebitehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQoOqN32Vw0
unironically must watch video

2. Mute button, hud_saytext_time 0 already exist. steam censor might work i haven't checked. Why do we need someone to develop a plugin when the concept already exists in game?

Anyone can make a playlist for slin's videos in whatever organization they choose. 5,7, 9 all seem to be problems with the person who wants the content. It's really not that hard to search for whatever you want.

10. Fuck gxq they already got their chance. Sinatraa had an organization that signed a contract with him and enough money to beat the toxicity out of him if they wanted to.

11. I don't really know what you want tftv to do. You're in the wrong place if you're asking for more casual tf2 youtube videos.

12 is a lost cause. Why would anyone who works with the most prestigious video developers work on a 12 year old game with spaghetti code that's impossible to understand and has a playerbase of like 10k people max.

14. Having a season long mentor is a rare occurance. Asking a friend who's better than you for a demo review is way more realistic than expecting people to commit another hour or two a week to teach people how to play a video game. You can ask comp players to give more time but people have jobs and shit.

Try asking if RGL needs any help compiling tutorials/info or building the mindset you want within your own team.

The way I look at it. Its either change the community ourselves as best we can for the sustainability of the game for the future, or ask for valve's involvement. We already know the latter is not going to happen.

[quote=Rebite][youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQoOqN32Vw0[/youtube]
unironically must watch video

2. Mute button, hud_saytext_time 0 already exist. steam censor might work i haven't checked. Why do we need someone to develop a plugin when the concept already exists in game?

Anyone can make a playlist for slin's videos in whatever organization they choose. 5,7, 9 all seem to be problems with the person who wants the content. It's really not that hard to search for whatever you want.

10. Fuck gxq they already got their chance. Sinatraa had an organization that signed a contract with him and enough money to beat the toxicity out of him if they wanted to.

11. I don't really know what you want tftv to do. You're in the wrong place if you're asking for more casual tf2 youtube videos.

12 is a lost cause. Why would anyone who works with the most prestigious video developers work on a 12 year old game with spaghetti code that's impossible to understand and has a playerbase of like 10k people max.

14. Having a season long mentor is a rare occurance. Asking a friend who's better than you for a demo review is way more realistic than expecting people to commit another hour or two a week to teach people how to play a video game. You can ask comp players to give more time but people have jobs and shit.

Try asking if RGL needs any help compiling tutorials/info or building the mindset you want within your own team.[/quote]

The way I look at it. Its either change the community ourselves as best we can for the sustainability of the game for the future, or ask for valve's involvement. We already know the latter is not going to happen.
43
#43
7 Frags +
Zestydet-I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.
Imo this is a big problem with pugchamp as is right now though. The service clearly is meant to (and used to) have B, C etc pugs going as it has several servers for this purpose, but this almost never happens now. I think there's a few reasons for this, one being the website design, you can't pick 2 pugs concurrently and it takes a long time so people don't stick around. I also think there's a lot of people who would rather wait for an A pug that they don't even end up getting picked in than play a B pug at all, I see this in inhouses as well. Playing pugs at a higher level is generally more enjoyable and more valuable if you want to get better but low level players also need to be able to do this and I think on Pugchamp in particular people tell them not to captain if they're waiting on an A pug to end.

playing the A pug has been less enjoyable than playing the B pug for years now, both in NA and in EU

[quote=Zesty][quote=det-]I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.[/quote]

Imo this is a big problem with pugchamp as is right now though. The service clearly is meant to (and used to) have B, C etc pugs going as it has several servers for this purpose, but this almost never happens now. I think there's a few reasons for this, one being the website design, you can't pick 2 pugs concurrently and it takes a long time so people don't stick around. I also think there's a lot of people who would rather wait for an A pug that they don't even end up getting picked in than play a B pug at all, I see this in inhouses as well. Playing pugs at a higher level is generally more enjoyable and more valuable if you want to get better but low level players also need to be able to do this and I think on Pugchamp in particular people tell them not to captain if they're waiting on an A pug to end.[/quote]
playing the A pug has been less enjoyable than playing the B pug for years now, both in NA and in EU
44
#44
3 Frags +

It doesn't help that picking teams takes a fucking year on it's own even if the pug doesn't get killed. Back when I would try to add up, captains would incredibly frequently get like 90% of the way through picking teams and then kill the pug. Someone like me who would usually have to wait for B pugs would, more often than not, literally have to wait 45+ minutes.

It doesn't help that picking teams takes a fucking year on it's own even if the pug doesn't get killed. Back when I would try to add up, captains would incredibly frequently get like 90% of the way through picking teams and then kill the pug. Someone like me who would usually have to wait for B pugs would, more often than not, literally have to wait 45+ minutes.
45
#45
-31 Frags +
alec_the real problems with comp tf2 will forever be the game's default settings and the separation between the casual and comp mode at least in 6s, this community does more than any other comp game to cater to new players. and b4nny will never be dethroned because he is a god and he poaches good players who have no reason not to join froyo and no one will ever get a salary to grind and try to outwork him (which would mean him and his players are probably also salaried and would then not lose in playoffs to any team that would be formed of non-froyo players)

Froyo has a weakness its called dedication none of them are dedicated in my opinion you see how rarely most of them get on besides for scrims and matches.Their best thing is just how much experience they have and you cant grind experience,comes with time. He isn't a god they are growing weaker and weaker as we speak did you see what corsia did.
This isn't the best take I know.

[quote=alec_]the real problems with comp tf2 will forever be the game's default settings and the separation between the casual and comp mode at least in 6s, this community does more than any other comp game to cater to new players. and b4nny will never be dethroned because he is a god and he poaches good players who have no reason not to join froyo and no one will ever get a salary to grind and try to outwork him (which would mean him and his players are probably also salaried and would then not lose in playoffs to any team that would be formed of non-froyo players)[/quote]
Froyo has a weakness its called dedication none of them are dedicated in my opinion you see how rarely most of them get on besides for scrims and matches.Their best thing is just how much experience they have and you cant grind experience,comes with time. He isn't a god they are growing weaker and weaker as we speak did you see what corsia did.
This isn't the best take I know.
46
#46
87 Frags +

why is there still this narrative that if the tf2 community tried harder the game would grow? some people are so naive to think there's some puzzle that valve gave us that we never solved, or we haven't accumulated enough gold stars as a community so they're holding off on the competitive overhaul until we've proved our morals and learned our lesson.

TobuBumFreezeplayers who already play comp watching youtube videos will not grow the game
having more mentors will not grow the game
slin's editing will not grow the game
making pugchamp teams worse will not grow the game
censoring swear words is already a default game function
saying "gamesense makes u good" (9) isnt even a suggestion ????

i think ur looking at this from the pov of what you want as someone who already plays comp, but for the game to not be dead we literally only need more non-comp players to pick up and try/watch comp. this will probably not happen because valve matchmaking did more to turn people away from comp than we can probably ever recover lol. the number of casuals who i asked about comp and they say its shit, purely because of the awful first impression from playing first-to-two on vanguard vs a hacker and 3 pyros after a 40 minute wait time is so high, and these people dont even know about real third party comp.
popular esports have their literal ready-to-play competitive format front and center and this perpetuates players, viewers, everything. tf2 players have to 1. be interested in comp 2. somehow not immediately give up after playing the shite in-game version 3. google lots of stuff to find out where/how u can actually play it 4. install custom huds, configs, net settings, turn on a bunch of adv options to not be at an inherent disadvantage to every comp player etc. etc.
This is exactly why I wanted to push for valve's involvement, what if there was that 1% chance that valve still cared. Would we get a second shot? This time with RGL, the platform that accommodates for both new and high level players and all the experience and feedback against Valve Comp we've gathered since Meet your Match. I know valve has their own philosophy, but we would know what to input and this time, hopefully, get it right. Because its either that impossible shot or we make the competitive community as accessible and as healthy as possible for the players that are entering the scene right now. Because we are not growing.

like, what is this? do you think valve needed the cs 1.6/cs:s community to prove their dedication to the game to make csgo and eventually push the competitive format so it could grow into the esport it is today? it's about money, dude. money. you think these billion dollar corporations are running leagues and tournaments for their game to capture the spirit of competition? it's to make money. they have simply decided the risk associated with pushing competitive tf2 is not worth the potential payout. that's it. they're not waiting for the competitive community to reach their standard as true patrons of the game, who fully understand the compromise they need to make for the plight of the pubber. if they thought competitive tf2 could be lucrative they'd have a larger team either creating a sequel or making massive changes to the title to standardize the gameplay. there's nothing you can do about it. even pubs are suffering now because of bots. pubbers who used to have gabe newell as their steam avatar are now cynical valve haters who complain about bots and valve not caring every time sydney#123213213 joins the game to spin around in circles.

also making the community more accessible and healthier ISN'T mutually exclusive here. you can strive to make the game better for new and old players alike without expecting that to lead to tf2 as an esport. if you find out valve is never going to care (they won't) are you going to try to kill the game faster instead? make the game good for the community that plays. do your best to do your own advertising for the game so new players have a chance to play competitive if it's something they'd enjoy. stop thinking valve is implicated in this at all.

why is there still this narrative that if the tf2 community tried harder the game would grow? some people are so naive to think there's some puzzle that valve gave us that we never solved, or we haven't accumulated enough gold stars as a community so they're holding off on the competitive overhaul until we've proved our morals and learned our lesson.

[quote=Tobu][quote=BumFreeze]players who already play comp watching youtube videos will not grow the game
having more mentors will not grow the game
slin's editing will not grow the game
making pugchamp teams worse will not grow the game
censoring swear words is already a default game function
saying "gamesense makes u good" (9) isnt even a suggestion ????

i think ur looking at this from the pov of what you want as someone who already plays comp, but for the game to not be dead we literally only need more non-comp players to pick up and try/watch comp. this will probably not happen because valve matchmaking did more to turn people away from comp than we can probably ever recover lol. the number of casuals who i asked about comp and they say its shit, purely because of the awful first impression from playing first-to-two on vanguard vs a hacker and 3 pyros after a 40 minute wait time is so high, and these people dont even know about real third party comp.
popular esports have their literal ready-to-play competitive format front and center and this perpetuates players, viewers, everything. tf2 players have to 1. be interested in comp 2. somehow not immediately give up after playing the shite in-game version 3. google lots of stuff to find out where/how u can actually play it 4. install custom huds, configs, net settings, turn on a bunch of adv options to not be at an inherent disadvantage to every comp player etc. etc.[/quote]
This is exactly why I wanted to push for valve's involvement, what if there was that 1% chance that valve still cared. Would we get a second shot? This time with RGL, the platform that accommodates for both new and high level players and all the experience and feedback against Valve Comp we've gathered since Meet your Match. I know valve has their own philosophy, but we would know what to input and this time, hopefully, get it right. Because its either that impossible shot or we make the competitive community as accessible and as healthy as possible for the players that are entering the scene right now. Because we are not growing.[/quote]

like, what is this? do you think valve needed the cs 1.6/cs:s community to prove their dedication to the game to make csgo and eventually push the competitive format so it could grow into the esport it is today? it's about money, dude. money. you think these billion dollar corporations are running leagues and tournaments for their game to capture the spirit of competition? it's to make money. they have simply decided the risk associated with pushing competitive tf2 is not worth the potential payout. that's it. they're not waiting for the competitive community to reach their standard as true patrons of the game, who fully understand the compromise they need to make for the plight of the pubber. if they thought competitive tf2 could be lucrative they'd have a larger team either creating a sequel or making massive changes to the title to standardize the gameplay. there's nothing you can do about it. even pubs are suffering now because of bots. pubbers who used to have gabe newell as their steam avatar are now cynical valve haters who complain about bots and valve not caring every time sydney#123213213 joins the game to spin around in circles.

also making the community more accessible and healthier ISN'T mutually exclusive here. you can strive to make the game better for new and old players alike without expecting that to lead to tf2 as an esport. if you find out valve is never going to care (they won't) are you going to try to kill the game faster instead? make the game good for the community that plays. do your best to do your own advertising for the game so new players have a chance to play competitive if it's something they'd enjoy. stop thinking valve is implicated in this at all.
47
#47
0 Frags +

6s in this game will never grow to be a giant a tier esport where the people who still give a fuck about this game will be able to make a living off it (excluding b4nny)

the giant esport boat was missed, i think the most important thing to do now is enjoy this game while its still alive enough to play

keeping players around is nice

6s in this game will never grow to be a giant a tier esport where the people who still give a fuck about this game will be able to make a living off it (excluding b4nny)

the giant esport boat was missed, i think the most important thing to do now is enjoy this game while its still alive enough to play

keeping players around is nice
48
#48
30 Frags +
clckwrkgood post

the irony is, because we have done a good job keeping this tiny scene alive for years, we're gonna keep having OK HERE'S HOW WE MAKE TF2 A REAL ESPORT threads all the time as newer players reach a certain level

it's literally a good sign that more people with stars in their eyes are coming into make these same naive arguments!

[quote=clckwrk]good post[/quote]

the irony is, because we have done a good job keeping this tiny scene alive for years, we're gonna keep having OK HERE'S HOW WE MAKE TF2 A REAL ESPORT threads all the time as newer players reach a certain level

it's literally a good sign that more people with stars in their eyes are coming into make these same naive arguments!
49
#49
9 Frags +

TF3 will be the only way team fortress ever becomes a major esport. I do sincerly think a remaster/sequel would be a tier 1 esport within months.

It's a shame valve lost interest in the game.

TF3 will be the only way team fortress ever becomes a major esport. I do sincerly think a remaster/sequel would be a tier 1 esport within months.

It's a shame valve lost interest in the game.
50
#50
3 Frags +
mustardoverlordclckwrkgood post
the irony is, because we have done a good job keeping this tiny scene alive for years, we're gonna keep having OK HERE'S HOW WE MAKE TF2 A REAL ESPORT threads all the time as newer players reach a certain level

it's literally a good sign that more people with stars in their eyes are coming into make these same naive arguments!

The is goal not have tf2 as an esport, I completely agree that's impossible and financially unsustainable. That was not the point of the document. As others and clockwork have pointed out, its about future sustainability, holding rgl accountable, and being kind to newer/lower div players. Starting with the hopefully unified rgl pug service that was hyped around the community instead of having these discord pugs that die every month.

[quote=mustardoverlord][quote=clckwrk]good post[/quote]

the irony is, because we have done a good job keeping this tiny scene alive for years, we're gonna keep having OK HERE'S HOW WE MAKE TF2 A REAL ESPORT threads all the time as newer players reach a certain level

it's literally a good sign that more people with stars in their eyes are coming into make these same naive arguments![/quote]
The is goal not have tf2 as an esport, I completely agree that's impossible and financially unsustainable. That was not the point of the document. As others and clockwork have pointed out, its about future sustainability, holding rgl accountable, and being kind to newer/lower div players. Starting with the hopefully unified rgl pug service that was hyped around the community instead of having these discord pugs that die every month.
51
#51
2 Frags +

I don't know how the conversation turned into turning the game into an eSports, probably had to do something with the comparisons I made with other games. If you compare tf2 with other games, you will always get the "tf2 is dead and unsustainable" argument. And yes, that's true. Everyone knows turning this game into an eSports is straight up impossible, I even mentioned it in the doc.

However, we should keep the mindset of the players of those videogames. Because when you enter the scene, getting better at the game, learning mechanics, playing with your team/friends is the fun. Many players quit playing competitive and don't get far enough just because they don't have the resources or the will. Having a community to support everyone on their journey is the way to sustainability and helps to keep a competitive scene alive by fostering a new breed of competent gamers. Not elite gamers gatekeeping their 13 year old game and certainly not money.

I don't know how the conversation turned into turning the game into an eSports, probably had to do something with the comparisons I made with other games. If you compare tf2 with other games, you will always get the "tf2 is dead and unsustainable" argument. And yes, that's true. Everyone knows turning this game into an eSports is straight up impossible, I even mentioned it in the doc.

However, we should keep the mindset of the players of those videogames. Because when you enter the scene, getting better at the game, learning mechanics, playing with your team/friends is the fun. Many players quit playing competitive and don't get far enough just because they don't have the resources or the will. Having a community to support everyone on their journey is the way to sustainability and helps to keep a competitive scene alive by fostering a new breed of competent gamers. Not elite gamers gatekeeping their 13 year old game and certainly not money.
52
#52
2 Frags +
TobuHowever, we should keep the mindset of the players of those videogames. Because when you enter the scene, getting better at the game, learning mechanics, playing with your team/friends is the fun. Many players quit playing competitive and don't get far enough just because they don't have the resources or the will. Having a community to support everyone on their journey is the way to sustainability and helps to keep a competitive scene alive by fostering a new breed of competent gamers. Not elite gamers gatekeeping their 13 year old game and certainly not money.

There is an absolute difference however that in if you succeed in other, larger games with esports scenes you can get paid. That literally will not happen in TF2, it doesn't matter to most people playing I wouldn't think but you don't get the younger players being super driven to succeed in the game because they've seen these huge LAN tourneys in stadiums and hear about the money people are earning. I don't think you can seperate the mindset of people in those games from the money that's involved.

The fact that money is involved at all trickles down in to other facets of the game too beyond salaries. Marketing is spent by third parties on pushing the competitive scene of the game to turn eyeballs, it makes sense for people like FaceIT and ESEA to make and maintain pugging systems. Content creators around the game have more incentive to make high quality, easy to digest guides and learning tools because of the larger market because of all the money and all the marketing and so on.

You can't say that grassroots competitive scenes keep the mindset and try to learn from other larger games because they aren't the same thing.

[quote=Tobu]
However, we should keep the mindset of the players of those videogames. Because when you enter the scene, getting better at the game, learning mechanics, playing with your team/friends is the fun. Many players quit playing competitive and don't get far enough just because they don't have the resources or the will. Having a community to support everyone on their journey is the way to sustainability and helps to keep a competitive scene alive by fostering a new breed of competent gamers. Not elite gamers gatekeeping their 13 year old game and certainly not money.[/quote]

There is an absolute difference however that in if you succeed in other, larger games with esports scenes you can get paid. That literally will not happen in TF2, it doesn't matter to most people playing I wouldn't think but you don't get the younger players being super driven to succeed in the game because they've seen these huge LAN tourneys in stadiums and hear about the money people are earning. I don't think you can seperate the mindset of people in those games from the money that's involved.

The fact that money is involved at all trickles down in to other facets of the game too beyond salaries. Marketing is spent by third parties on pushing the competitive scene of the game to turn eyeballs, it makes sense for people like FaceIT and ESEA to make and maintain pugging systems. Content creators around the game have more incentive to make high quality, easy to digest guides and learning tools because of the larger market because of all the money and all the marketing and so on.

You can't say that grassroots competitive scenes keep the mindset and try to learn from other larger games because they aren't the same thing.
53
#53
6 Frags +
ZestyImo this is a big problem with pugchamp as is right now though. The service clearly is meant to (and used to) have B, C etc pugs going as it has several servers for this purpose, but this almost never happens now. I think there's a few reasons for this, one being the website design, you can't pick 2 pugs concurrently and it takes a long time so people don't stick around. I also think there's a lot of people who would rather wait for an A pug that they don't even end up getting picked in than play a B pug at all, I see this in inhouses as well. Playing pugs at a higher level is generally more enjoyable and more valuable if you want to get better but low level players also need to be able to do this and I think on Pugchamp in particular people tell them not to captain if they're waiting on an A pug to end.

also because of this pug options aimed at lower div players (mixchamp, various discord pugs) are full of mainclassing div-1/2 players who are too scared to play pugchamp

[quote=Zesty]
Imo this is a big problem with pugchamp as is right now though. The service clearly is meant to (and used to) have B, C etc pugs going as it has several servers for this purpose, but this almost never happens now. I think there's a few reasons for this, one being the website design, you can't pick 2 pugs concurrently and it takes a long time so people don't stick around. I also think there's a lot of people who would rather wait for an A pug that they don't even end up getting picked in than play a B pug at all, I see this in inhouses as well. Playing pugs at a higher level is generally more enjoyable and more valuable if you want to get better but low level players also need to be able to do this and I think on Pugchamp in particular people tell them not to captain if they're waiting on an A pug to end.[/quote]

also because of this pug options aimed at lower div players (mixchamp, various discord pugs) are full of mainclassing div-1/2 players who are too scared to play pugchamp
54
#54
10 Frags +

we not making it out the hood

we not making it out the hood
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