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The Voice of the Open Player
1
#1
0 Frags +

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.
2
#2
120 Frags +

ban b4nny upfrag if u agree

ban b4nny upfrag if u agree
3
#3
37 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/cnkJ1V3.jpg

[img]https://i.imgur.com/cnkJ1V3.jpg[/img]
4
#4
-60 Frags +
Tobuhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.

dude if you want someone to represent the lower division players, speak to me next time

[quote=Tobu]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.[/quote]
dude if you want someone to represent the lower division players, speak to me next time
5
#5
60 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/459468230021480488/779439740016394240/unknown.png

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▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░ Valve, ░░░░░█
▓▓▓▓▓▓█░░░░Help Us ░░░░█
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6
#6
16 Frags +

I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.

I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.
7
#7
0 Frags +
det-I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.

Yeah I was mulling over this. Pugchamp is the service for top talent and it should be so. In any case, rgl pugs can address these issues because they claim (according to b4nny) to have dynamic, skill-based matchmaking.

[quote=det-]I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.[/quote]
Yeah I was mulling over this. Pugchamp is the service for top talent and it should be so. In any case, rgl pugs can address these issues because they claim (according to b4nny) to have dynamic, skill-based matchmaking.
8
#8
newbie.tf
20 Frags +

As far as point 4 is concerned, I don't think you quite understand the level of players that come to newbie mixes. We cater to fresh installs to low seasonal experience and expecting someone to want to main call is just unrealistic. Still, we don't explicitly tell them not to make main calls but no one coming there will be experienced enough to do it confidently in a pug scenario.

On the subject of mentorship and trying to get better, I can tell you that from my experience having coached several teams and being the seasonal drive admin newbie mixes, people starting out playing this game are not going in with the intention of winning, nor are they always crazy concerned about getting better. They appreciate the coaching we give them and many do end up trying a lot, but these guys are merely getting a taste for the competitive side and that's all you can really expect of people. This entire document makes it seem like one of the only real ways to grow the community is for everybody playing to be all about winning and learning and yeah that'd be ideal but ultimately it's just a game and a hobby for most people. Not a lot of people care about the death that's supposedly already shown up because they're in it to have fun with friends more than anything else

As far as point 4 is concerned, I don't think you quite understand the level of players that come to newbie mixes. We cater to fresh installs to low seasonal experience and expecting someone to want to main call is just unrealistic. Still, we don't explicitly tell them not to make main calls but no one coming there will be experienced enough to do it confidently in a pug scenario.

On the subject of mentorship and trying to get better, I can tell you that from my experience having coached several teams and being the seasonal drive admin newbie mixes, people starting out playing this game are not going in with the intention of winning, nor are they always crazy concerned about getting better. They appreciate the coaching we give them and many do end up trying a lot, but these guys are merely getting a taste for the competitive side and that's all you can really expect of people. This entire document makes it seem like one of the only real ways to grow the community is for everybody playing to be all about winning and learning and yeah that'd be ideal but ultimately it's just a game and a hobby for most people. Not a lot of people care about the death that's supposedly already shown up because they're in it to have fun with friends more than anything else
9
#9
0 Frags +
tonyAs far as point 4 is concerned, I don't think you quite understand the level of players that come to newbie mixes. We cater to fresh installs to low seasonal experience and expecting someone to want to main call is just unrealistic. Still, we don't explicitly tell them not to make main calls but no one coming there will be experienced enough to do it confidently in a pug scenario.

On the subject of mentorship and trying to get better, I can tell you that from my experience having coached several teams and being the seasonal drive admin newbie mixes, people starting out playing this game are not going in with the intention of winning, nor are they always crazy concerned about getting better. They appreciate the coaching we give them and many do end up trying a lot, but these guys are merely getting a taste for the competitive side and that's all you can really expect of people. This entire document makes it seem like one of the only real ways to grow the community is for everybody playing to be all about winning and learning and yeah that'd be ideal but ultimately it's just a game and a hobby for most people. Not a lot of people care about the death that's supposedly already shown up because they're in it to have fun with friends more than anything else

I did expect some contention regarding the suggestion. The ideal would be trying to improve to the best of our ability. However, I agree with what you said. Fresh installs and other players should not expect to be grinding the game to be the best, its all just for fun. Maybe a better suggestion would be to ask for a volunteer maincaller, not enforced, just so that a player who wants to maincall learns the role.

[quote=tony]As far as point 4 is concerned, I don't think you quite understand the level of players that come to newbie mixes. We cater to fresh installs to low seasonal experience and expecting someone to want to main call is just unrealistic. Still, we don't explicitly tell them not to make main calls but no one coming there will be experienced enough to do it confidently in a pug scenario.

On the subject of mentorship and trying to get better, I can tell you that from my experience having coached several teams and being the seasonal drive admin newbie mixes, people starting out playing this game are not going in with the intention of winning, nor are they always crazy concerned about getting better. They appreciate the coaching we give them and many do end up trying a lot, but these guys are merely getting a taste for the competitive side and that's all you can really expect of people. This entire document makes it seem like one of the only real ways to grow the community is for everybody playing to be all about winning and learning and yeah that'd be ideal but ultimately it's just a game and a hobby for most people. Not a lot of people care about the death that's supposedly already shown up because they're in it to have fun with friends more than anything else[/quote]
I did expect some contention regarding the suggestion. The ideal would be trying to improve to the best of our ability. However, I agree with what you said. Fresh installs and other players should not expect to be grinding the game to be the best, its all just for fun. Maybe a better suggestion would be to ask for a volunteer maincaller, not enforced, just so that a player who wants to maincall learns the role.
10
#10
25 Frags +
cre-8Tobuhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.
dude if you want someone to represent the lower division players, speak to me next time

wait who are you

[quote=cre-8][quote=Tobu]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.[/quote]
dude if you want someone to represent the lower division players, speak to me next time[/quote]
wait who are you
11
#11
newbie.tf
6 Frags +
TobutonysnipI did expect some contention regarding the suggestion. The ideal would be trying to improve to the best of our ability. However, I agree with what you said. Fresh installs and other players should not expect to be grinding the game to be the best, its all just for fun. Maybe a better suggestion would be to ask for a volunteer maincaller, not enforced, just so that a player who wants to maincall learns the role.

Newbie mixes has functioned very well under the current system and I don't see a huge benefit to adding that suggestion since main calling isn't a huge concern to players who are still learning the basics of the game. Plus, maincalling is meant for groups of players that all understand what those calls are and their intended goal and that's not here.

Also I'm having trouble understanding what the goal of a lot of this post is. Seems like you're trying to push for a certain mentality to take hold of competitors but it's a bit naive to assume a post like this would be the encouraging factor to create a "tf2 revolution." Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the interest in pushing the game further but I don't see how this seeks to achieve that.

[quote=Tobu][quote=tony]snip[/quote]
I did expect some contention regarding the suggestion. The ideal would be trying to improve to the best of our ability. However, I agree with what you said. Fresh installs and other players should not expect to be grinding the game to be the best, its all just for fun. Maybe a better suggestion would be to ask for a volunteer maincaller, not enforced, just so that a player who wants to maincall learns the role.[/quote]
Newbie mixes has functioned very well under the current system and I don't see a huge benefit to adding that suggestion since main calling isn't a huge concern to players who are still learning the basics of the game. Plus, maincalling is meant for groups of players that all understand what those calls are and their intended goal and that's not here.

Also I'm having trouble understanding what the goal of a lot of this post is. Seems like you're trying to push for a certain mentality to take hold of competitors but it's a bit naive to assume a post like this would be the encouraging factor to create a "tf2 revolution." Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the interest in pushing the game further but I don't see how this seeks to achieve that.
12
#12
-14 Frags +
Tobuhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.

I think we should replace most rgl 6's admins.

[quote=Tobu]https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mXnBSnM_hCPQ50QLTJ2_CIXserk-VhA_UPn3idsVe44/edit?usp=sharing

I want as many people to read this as possible.
I believe there hasn't been enough of a voice from lower division players. I want to represent them too. These are just suggestions and thoughts addressing as many things as I could. I want to start a healthy discussion and hopefully help foster a healthier RGL for all divisions.[/quote]
I think we should replace most rgl 6's admins.
13
#13
17 Frags +

replacing them won't solve the root problem. the solution is to increase transparency and hold admins accountable for deviating from a clear and established penalty system so that an action is penalized the same way every time regardless of who the perp, admin or division it is.

wont happen because there's no reason to and the league is being held together by spaghetti but that's how you'd do it.

ps i volunteer for head admin and, if elected, will drain the swamp.

replacing them won't solve the root problem. the solution is to increase transparency and hold admins accountable for deviating from a clear and established penalty system so that an action is penalized the same way every time regardless of who the perp, admin or division it is.

wont happen because there's no reason to and the league is being held together by spaghetti but that's how you'd do it.

ps i volunteer for head admin and, if elected, will drain the swamp.
14
#14
0 Frags +
tonyTobutonysnipI did expect some contention regarding the suggestion. The ideal would be trying to improve to the best of our ability. However, I agree with what you said. Fresh installs and other players should not expect to be grinding the game to be the best, its all just for fun. Maybe a better suggestion would be to ask for a volunteer maincaller, not enforced, just so that a player who wants to maincall learns the role.Newbie mixes has functioned very well under the current system and I don't see a huge benefit to adding that suggestion since main calling isn't a huge concern to players who are still learning the basics of the game. Plus, maincalling is meant for groups of players that all understand what those calls are and their intended goal and that's not here.

Also I'm having trouble understanding what the goal of a lot of this post is. Seems like you're trying to push for a certain mentality to take hold of competitors but it's a bit naive to assume a post like this would be the encouraging factor to create a "tf2 revolution." Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the interest in pushing the game further but I don't see how this seeks to achieve that.

The tf2 revolution was kind of a joke document name. The real title was The Voice of the Open Player, all I want is to see a more friendly demeanor towards newer players, which will eventually affect the top levels too. If there was less division due to the elitist mindset demonstrated by the top players, if there was more information available and catering to newer players, and if there was more effort in learning the game by newer players, we will see a healthier RGL. Sure it is naive, because I am trying to address all topics, but I wish for nothing more but the best for competitive tf2.

[quote=tony][quote=Tobu][quote=tony]snip[/quote]
I did expect some contention regarding the suggestion. The ideal would be trying to improve to the best of our ability. However, I agree with what you said. Fresh installs and other players should not expect to be grinding the game to be the best, its all just for fun. Maybe a better suggestion would be to ask for a volunteer maincaller, not enforced, just so that a player who wants to maincall learns the role.[/quote]
Newbie mixes has functioned very well under the current system and I don't see a huge benefit to adding that suggestion since main calling isn't a huge concern to players who are still learning the basics of the game. Plus, maincalling is meant for groups of players that all understand what those calls are and their intended goal and that's not here.

Also I'm having trouble understanding what the goal of a lot of this post is. Seems like you're trying to push for a certain mentality to take hold of competitors but it's a bit naive to assume a post like this would be the encouraging factor to create a "tf2 revolution." Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the interest in pushing the game further but I don't see how this seeks to achieve that.[/quote]
The tf2 revolution was kind of a joke document name. The real title was The Voice of the Open Player, all I want is to see a more friendly demeanor towards newer players, which will eventually affect the top levels too. If there was less division due to the elitist mindset demonstrated by the top players, if there was more information available and catering to newer players, and if there was more effort in learning the game by newer players, we will see a healthier RGL. Sure it is naive, because I am trying to address all topics, but I wish for nothing more but the best for competitive tf2.
15
#15
-38 Frags +

the beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least

the beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least
16
#16
46 Frags +
hamahamthe beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least

The bottom 3 RGL divs are individually bigger than the top 3 combined. We consistently ignore the biggest chunks of the playerbase 'cuz they're bad' then wonder where all the new players are.

[quote=hamaham]the beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least[/quote]
The bottom 3 RGL divs are individually bigger than the top 3 combined. We consistently ignore the biggest chunks of the playerbase 'cuz they're bad' then wonder where all the new players are.
17
#17
54 Frags +
hamahamthe beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least

people who equate self worth by accomplishments in a video game know even less

[quote=hamaham]the beauty of open players thinking they know anything is adorable to say the least[/quote]
people who equate self worth by accomplishments in a video game know even less
18
#18
9 Frags +

tf2 will not be dead if we simply all play mge guys

tf2 will not be dead if we simply all play mge guys
19
#19
70 Frags +
Tobu5. Slin’s videos need to be organized/edited better, he has so many good resources and advice.

https://i.ibb.co/QM9JT5F/mrslin.png

[quote=Tobu]5. Slin’s videos need to be organized/edited better, he has so many good resources and advice.
[/quote]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/QM9JT5F/mrslin.png[/img]
20
#20
7 Frags +

While I do have issues with a lot of points made in the document, I do agree with not being overly hostile to new players. It's one thing to sub out a new player because they got lost on their way to tf2center, or get frustrated after they drop multiple times, but it's another thing entirely to verbally abuse inexperienced people like I've seen certain individuals do.

While I do have issues with a lot of points made in the document, I do agree with not being overly hostile to new players. It's one thing to sub out a new player because they got lost on their way to tf2center, or get frustrated after they drop multiple times, but it's another thing entirely to verbally abuse inexperienced people like I've seen certain individuals do.
21
#21
7 Frags +

introduce a salary cap so banny can stop poaching talent

introduce a salary cap so banny can stop poaching talent
22
#22
8 Frags +

in hindsight lots of the time when i got made fun of it was because i had uneducated opinions and had an ego about those opinions. reading through this doc (i actually did read all of it), most of this shit (besides the mentoring part) seems to come from a place of inexperience.

in hindsight lots of the time when i got made fun of it was because i had uneducated opinions and had an ego about those opinions. reading through this doc (i actually did read all of it), most of this shit (besides the mentoring part) seems to come from a place of inexperience.
23
#23
10 Frags +
det-I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.

Imo this is a big problem with pugchamp as is right now though. The service clearly is meant to (and used to) have B, C etc pugs going as it has several servers for this purpose, but this almost never happens now. I think there's a few reasons for this, one being the website design, you can't pick 2 pugs concurrently and it takes a long time so people don't stick around. I also think there's a lot of people who would rather wait for an A pug that they don't even end up getting picked in than play a B pug at all, I see this in inhouses as well. Playing pugs at a higher level is generally more enjoyable and more valuable if you want to get better but low level players also need to be able to do this and I think on Pugchamp in particular people tell them not to captain if they're waiting on an A pug to end.

[quote=det-]I'm aware that this is only a tiny part of the document but #3 is not a good idea. Pugchamp is meant to have the best players compete against each other. It ruins the pug for everyone else if your demo is div2 and is only doing 180 dpm when the rest of your team is div1/invite. For now, lower leveled players should look to play TF2Center or find in houses around their skill level. RGL pugs should be another boost for low level players if it ever gets released.[/quote]

Imo this is a big problem with pugchamp as is right now though. The service clearly is meant to (and used to) have B, C etc pugs going as it has several servers for this purpose, but this almost never happens now. I think there's a few reasons for this, one being the website design, you can't pick 2 pugs concurrently and it takes a long time so people don't stick around. I also think there's a lot of people who would rather wait for an A pug that they don't even end up getting picked in than play a B pug at all, I see this in inhouses as well. Playing pugs at a higher level is generally more enjoyable and more valuable if you want to get better but low level players also need to be able to do this and I think on Pugchamp in particular people tell them not to captain if they're waiting on an A pug to end.
24
#24
0 Frags +
umlpstTobu5. Slin’s videos need to be organized/edited better, he has so many good resources and advice.https://i.ibb.co/QM9JT5F/mrslin.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sq1Fg-Diwc
Must watch content for every tf2 player

[quote=umlpst][quote=Tobu]5. Slin’s videos need to be organized/edited better, he has so many good resources and advice.
[/quote]
[img]https://i.ibb.co/QM9JT5F/mrslin.png[/img][/quote]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sq1Fg-Diwc
Must watch content for every tf2 player
25
#25
0 Frags +
dbkin hindsight lots of the time when i got made fun of it was because i had uneducated opinions and had an ego about those opinions. reading through this doc (i actually did read all of it), most of this shit (besides the mentoring part) seems to come from a place of inexperience.

Thank you for taking the time to read it and providing feedback, I know I am an inexperienced player. This document is a culmination of all my knowledge about tf2 in only about 3500 hours. I believe that people with refined opinions deserve to be listened to - if you can elaborate which opinions of yours were dismissed in the past that would be great.

[quote=dbk]in hindsight lots of the time when i got made fun of it was because i had uneducated opinions and had an ego about those opinions. reading through this doc (i actually did read all of it), most of this shit (besides the mentoring part) seems to come from a place of inexperience.[/quote]
Thank you for taking the time to read it and providing feedback, I know I am an inexperienced player. This document is a culmination of all my knowledge about tf2 in only about 3500 hours. I believe that people with refined opinions deserve to be listened to - if you can elaborate which opinions of yours were dismissed in the past that would be great.
26
#26
10 Frags +
CAN TF2 BE AN ESPORTS?
The best teams in the world in other games pass the crown to others multiple times, such as Astralis from csgo, G2 from League of Legends, Shanghai dragons from Overwatch, etc. We are all aware of the stagnation that is present in the top level. It is the same stagnation that keeps this game from being a true “eSports”. I partly disagree with those who believe tf2 cannot be an eSports. We can at least reach the level of Smash Bros Melee, a game even older than tf2 and pretty much never updated but retains a healthy competitive player count. Obviously, it’s unfair to draw comparisons between Melee and tf2, the former is an offline game, and the latter is 99% online, but our community can benefit from adopting a mindset like those of League of Legends, Valorant, and other eSports titles. Playing a competitive game is all about balance and mindset first. Know your goals and resources, form a circle of gamers and friends you can trust and back you up. Nobody will threaten you if you are not alone. Ultimately, because of reasons beyond our control (lack of updates, marketing, competitive playerbase, sponsors) we are not an eSport and will never be, but we should follow the footsteps of one for the betterment of the community.

this kinda ignores it being way harder to put on tournaments for teams with 6 people than it is for single player tournaments. you can put up a 15k prize pool in melee and give the best player 7.5 grand and reach out to a few people to provide travel accommodations. that's just way more expensive to do with 6 times the people and im pretty sure the logistics around this have kept any team based esport from flourishing without dev help

[quote]CAN TF2 BE AN ESPORTS?
The best teams in the world in other games pass the crown to others multiple times, such as Astralis from csgo, G2 from League of Legends, Shanghai dragons from Overwatch, etc. We are all aware of the stagnation that is present in the top level. It is the same stagnation that keeps this game from being a true “eSports”. I partly disagree with those who believe tf2 cannot be an eSports. We can at least reach the level of Smash Bros Melee, a game even older than tf2 and pretty much never updated but retains a healthy competitive player count. Obviously, it’s unfair to draw comparisons between Melee and tf2, the former is an offline game, and the latter is 99% online, but our community can benefit from adopting a mindset like those of League of Legends, Valorant, and other eSports titles. Playing a competitive game is all about balance and mindset first. Know your goals and resources, form a circle of gamers and friends you can trust and back you up. Nobody will threaten you if you are not alone. Ultimately, because of reasons beyond our control (lack of updates, marketing, competitive playerbase, sponsors) we are not an eSport and will never be, but we should follow the footsteps of one for the betterment of the community.[/quote]

this kinda ignores it being way harder to put on tournaments for teams with 6 people than it is for single player tournaments. you can put up a 15k prize pool in melee and give the best player 7.5 grand and reach out to a few people to provide travel accommodations. that's just way more expensive to do with 6 times the people and im pretty sure the logistics around this have kept any team based esport from flourishing without dev help
27
#27
3 Frags +

not to mention that melee is a far better spectator experience than tf2 can ever be

not to mention that melee is a far better spectator experience than tf2 can ever be
28
#28
31 Frags +

the real problems with comp tf2 will forever be the game's default settings and the separation between the casual and comp mode at least in 6s, this community does more than any other comp game to cater to new players. and b4nny will never be dethroned because he is a god and he poaches good players who have no reason not to join froyo and no one will ever get a salary to grind and try to outwork him (which would mean him and his players are probably also salaried and would then not lose in playoffs to any team that would be formed of non-froyo players)

the real problems with comp tf2 will forever be the game's default settings and the separation between the casual and comp mode at least in 6s, this community does more than any other comp game to cater to new players. and b4nny will never be dethroned because he is a god and he poaches good players who have no reason not to join froyo and no one will ever get a salary to grind and try to outwork him (which would mean him and his players are probably also salaried and would then not lose in playoffs to any team that would be formed of non-froyo players)
29
#29
-26 Frags +

saw that you said tf2 instead of TF2...not gonna read

saw that you said tf2 instead of TF2...not gonna read
30
#30
26 Frags +

shut up pussy

shut up pussy
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