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RGL's reach outside of official matches
1
#1
0 Frags +

If this has been ranted about before, apologies.

Earlier today my team and I found that one of our scout players was banned from participating in any match for a week for guilt by association. The reason for this is because he put together a pug scrim that unbeknownst to him contained a player that was suspended by RGL for racism, who then went on to say another racist term in the pug scrim. Now my team is being indirectly punished for RGL's overreaching policies, forcing us to play with a sub going into the final week when we're on the playoffs bubble.

The fact that he got suspended for someone else's action when all he did was get a group of players together to play a pug is stupid on its own (he is supposedly responsible for someone else saying something according to staff), but the idea that you are then restricted from playing in RGL when it all occurred outside of any kind of affiliation with them is insane.

Rule in question:

[1002.4.1] - Using a banned player in a scrimmage
Banned players can play in RGL scrimmages. In the event that a banned player is playing in an RGL scrim or pickup game scrim of RGL players, and said player commits an act that would result in further bans, then the leader(s), active RGL player(s), and/or scrim organizer(s) responsible for that player's participation are subject to a possible league ban, in addition to a minor team penalty.

Where is the limit? What if you don't know the player that gets you banned? What if someone else you invited invites that person? Does every single pug service have to keep a running list of who is banned? RGL rules and enforcement of them continue to confuse.

If this has been ranted about before, apologies.

Earlier today my team and I found that one of our scout players was banned from participating in any match for a week for guilt by association. The reason for this is because he put together a [b]pug scrim[/b] that unbeknownst to him contained a player that was suspended by RGL for racism, who then went on to say another racist term in the pug scrim. Now my team is being indirectly punished for RGL's overreaching policies, forcing us to play with a sub going into the final week when we're on the playoffs bubble.

The fact that he got suspended for someone else's action when all he did was get a group of players together to play a pug is stupid on its own (he is supposedly responsible for someone else saying something according to staff), but the idea that you are then restricted from playing in RGL when it all occurred outside of any kind of affiliation with them is insane.

Rule in question:

[1002.4.1] - Using a banned player in a scrimmage
Banned players can play in RGL scrimmages. In the event that a banned player is playing in an [b]RGL scrim or pickup game scrim of RGL players[/b], and said player commits an act that would result in further bans, then the leader(s), active RGL player(s), and/or scrim organizer(s) responsible for that player's participation are subject to a possible league ban, in addition to a minor team penalty.

Where is the limit? What if you don't know the player that gets you banned? What if someone else you invited invites that person? [b]Does every single pug service have to keep a running list of who is banned?[/b] RGL rules and enforcement of them continue to confuse.
2
#2
74 Frags +

fuck rgl

fuck rgl
3
#3
20 Frags +

for full autismo context
cat/indra got banned with a 6 month but "indefinite until you appeal ;) we are rgl and are quirky" ban but he and the people who even knew about it assumed he was unbanned because in any other league there isn't this riot games level shit and a 6 month ban is a 6 month ban.
this isnt a good excuse to ban one of the better players off of a playoff bubble team that NEEDS TO WIN MATCHES and drastically impact the competitive integrity of your league.

for full autismo context
cat/indra got banned with a 6 month but "indefinite until you appeal ;) we are rgl and are quirky" ban but he and the people who even knew about it assumed he was unbanned because in any other league there isn't this riot games level shit and a 6 month ban is a 6 month ban.
this isnt a good excuse to ban one of the better players off of a playoff bubble team that NEEDS TO WIN MATCHES and drastically impact the competitive integrity of your league.
4
#4
payload.tf
-25 Frags +

monthly "rgl is bad" thread is here for november. See you next month!

monthly "rgl is bad" thread is here for november. See you next month!
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#5
50 Frags +

if 12 people assemble in a server to play a game of team fortress 2, that is not an rgl match, then rgl should not have any power over what those players do.. Would the same thing happen if 24 rgl players were in a pug together?

if 12 people assemble in a server to play a game of team fortress 2, that is not an rgl match, then rgl should not have any power over what those players do.. Would the same thing happen if 24 rgl players were in a pug together?
6
#6
35 Frags +

RGL apparently dictates all TF2 scrims and matches since the beginning of time.

RGL apparently dictates all TF2 scrims and matches since the beginning of time.
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#7
43 Frags +

tf2 is an rgl sanctioned game now and dont u forget it

tf2 is an rgl sanctioned game now and dont u forget it
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#8
-3 Frags +

the obsessive power fantasy of rgl leadership will be remembered in infamy

the obsessive power fantasy of rgl leadership will be remembered in infamy
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#9
39 Frags +

iirc rgl's policy is to only ban for shit like that if someone reports it, so someone had to have reported it to the admins
not defending rgl's policy just saying that someone went to the effort of actually filling out a report form about it

iirc rgl's policy is to only ban for shit like that if someone reports it, so someone had to have reported it to the admins
not defending rgl's policy just saying that someone went to the effort of actually filling out a report form about it
10
#10
44 Frags +

Dear RGL,

scrims are not affiliated with your league.
stop.

Best wishes,

Grape Juice The Third

Dear RGL,


scrims are not affiliated with your league.
stop.


Best wishes,

Grape Juice The Third
11
#11
RGL.gg
-68 Frags +

First, I want to clarify exactly when this rule applies, who it applies to, and why it exists.

dailyWhere is the limit?

As you bolded in the quoted rule, this rule applies to scrims (two RGL teams playing each other) and pugscrims (an RGL team scrimming a mix team). It does not apply to scrims between PUG teams, PUGs, or any other form of competitive TF2 game. I will update the wording to make sure this boundary is extra clear.

This is also not a ban by association. As detailed by the rule text, the ban applies to the person responsible for the player's inclusion in the scrim or pugscrim. When enforcing this rule, RGL makes the assumption that the person who organized the scrim or pugscrim is responsible for each player's inclusion in it, which is true in almost every situation. If this is not the case, a player is welcome to appeal with evidence of them not being responsible for that player, which usually takes the form of evidence that someone else got them. Ultimately though, as a scrim organizer, you take responsibility for your team in the scrim. This rule is also by far our most widely published rule, being displayed in a large banner at the top of every banned player's page, so we feel it is reasonable to expect players to be aware of this rule.

Originally, this rule did not exist. However, we were seeing situations where several league players in good standing would organize a pugscrim with players with substantial bans (1 year - perma). These banned players would then spam slurs in chat without remorse since they did not care about a slur ban on top of their already very long ban. This was also unavoidable for opposing teams, since the scrim would be scheduled between upstanding players. Since the beginning, we have stood by the idea that any RGL player and team should be able to play in our league in a slur and harassment free environment, which includes scrims as a fundamental part of playing with an RGL team. Contrary to popular belief on TFTV, the majority of the community supports slurs in scrims being regulated, as detailed in July's article, and we stand by our policies.

It is unfortunate that this ban happened during an important time to your team, but RGL strives to apply rules evenly across the board, and this is no exception. This is a well established and widely published rule that's been enforced regularly, dogb was the self-admitted scrim organizer, and indra was previously banned for egregious slur usage and toxicity. If there's proof that someone else was completely responsible for indra's inclusion and dogb had no responsibility for it, he's welcome to appeal. Otherwise, the ban stands.

First, I want to clarify exactly when this rule applies, who it applies to, and why it exists.

[quote=daily]Where is the limit?[/quote]

[i]As you bolded in the quoted rule,[/i] this rule applies to scrims (two RGL teams playing each other) and pugscrims (an RGL team scrimming a mix team). It does not apply to scrims between PUG teams, PUGs, or any other form of competitive TF2 game. I will update the wording to make sure this boundary is extra clear.

This is also not a ban by association. As detailed by the rule text, the ban applies to the person responsible for the player's inclusion in the scrim or pugscrim. When enforcing this rule, RGL makes the assumption that the person who organized the scrim or pugscrim is responsible for each player's inclusion in it, which is true in almost every situation. If this is not the case, a player is welcome to appeal with evidence of them not being responsible for that player, which usually takes the form of evidence that someone else got them. Ultimately though, as a scrim organizer, you take responsibility for your team in the scrim. This rule is also by far our most widely published rule, being displayed in a large banner at the top of every banned player's page, so we feel it is reasonable to expect players to be aware of this rule.

Originally, this rule did not exist. However, we were seeing situations where several league players in good standing would organize a pugscrim with players with substantial bans (1 year - perma). These banned players would then spam slurs in chat without remorse since they did not care about a slur ban on top of their already very long ban. This was also unavoidable for opposing teams, since the scrim would be scheduled between upstanding players. Since the beginning, we have stood by the idea that any RGL player and team should be able to play in our league in a slur and harassment free environment, which includes scrims as a fundamental part of playing with an RGL team. Contrary to popular belief on TFTV, [b]the majority of the community supports slurs in scrims being regulated[/b], as detailed in [url=https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1407&r=24]July's article[/url], and we stand by our policies.

It is unfortunate that this ban happened during an important time to your team, but RGL strives to apply rules evenly across the board, and this is no exception. This is a well established and widely published rule that's been enforced regularly, dogb was the self-admitted scrim organizer, and indra was previously banned for [url=https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/711047545534545981/756032010882908191/unknown.png]egregious[/url] slur usage and toxicity. If there's proof that someone else was completely responsible for indra's inclusion and dogb had no responsibility for it, he's welcome to appeal. Otherwise, the ban stands.
12
#12
payload.tf
7 Frags +
_MakkabeusSNIPGrapeJuiceIIIDear RGL,

scrims are not affiliated with your league.
stop.

Best wishes,

Grape Juice The Third

also why did you post that screenshot of Indra's ban proof?

[quote=_Makkabeus]SNIP[/quote]
[quote=GrapeJuiceIII]Dear RGL,


scrims are not affiliated with your league.
stop.


Best wishes,

Grape Juice The Third[/quote]


also why did you post that screenshot of Indra's ban proof?
13
#13
33 Frags +

bro just don't say the n word. and threaten to gut someone i guess

bro just don't say the n word. and threaten to gut someone i guess
14
#14
21 Frags +

Stop giving them money and see how quick things change

Stop giving them money and see how quick things change
15
#15
-6 Frags +

no ragrets

no ragrets
16
#16
27 Frags +

in season 4 of highlander my team got a minor warning before the season even started because we had members that played in a pugscrim and someone not even on the team readied the team up as the n word causing us to get a minor warning

in season 4 of highlander my team got a minor warning before the season even started because we had members that played in a pugscrim and someone not even on the team readied the team up as the n word causing us to get a minor warning
17
#17
28 Frags +

okay makkabeus post della. phox, and kuhnockers ban reason now

okay makkabeus post della. phox, and kuhnockers ban reason now
18
#18
35 Frags +

why did u post this

why did u post this
19
#19
-7 Frags +

another week another rgl thread...

another week another rgl thread...
20
#20
71 Frags +
_MakkabeusUltimately though, as a scrim organizer, you take responsibility for your team in the scrim

uhhhhh. no. as a scrim organizer you take responsibility for your team SHOWING UP for the scrim, and thats it.

[quote=_Makkabeus]Ultimately though, as a scrim organizer, you take responsibility for your team in the scrim[/quote]
uhhhhh. no. as a scrim organizer you take responsibility for your team SHOWING UP for the scrim, and thats it.
21
#21
6 Frags +

Big Brother Is Watching You

Big Brother Is Watching You
22
#22
5 Frags +
_Makkabeusdogb was the self-admitted scrim organizer
[quote=_Makkabeus]dogb was the self-admitted scrim organizer[/quote]
23
#23
21 Frags +
dogbwhy did u post this

The criminal himself returns to the scene of the crime .

[quote=dogb]why did u post this[/quote]

The criminal himself returns to the scene of the crime .
24
#24
15 Frags +
paskoStop giving them money and see how quick things change

This. If people don't like shit, vote with your money. What is RGL going to do? Ban you from the servers they don't provide? Even now, people could just tell RGL to fuck off and play with literally whoever they want, paid or unpaid, because there is no client or regulation beyond their words.

Thank you for coming to my "RGL bad" Ted talk.

[quote=pasko]Stop giving them money and see how quick things change[/quote]


This. If people don't like shit, vote with your money. What is RGL going to do? Ban you from the servers they don't provide? Even now, people could just tell RGL to fuck off and play with literally whoever they want, paid or unpaid, because there is no client or regulation beyond their words.

Thank you for coming to my "RGL bad" Ted talk.
25
#25
-6 Frags +

if the you guys just played on christmas lange would still be sane, CEVO would still be around and derrick rose would never have gotten injured

if the you guys just played on christmas lange would still be sane, CEVO would still be around and derrick rose would never have gotten injured
26
#26
5 Frags +

yea where’s my ban reason ? -_-

yea where’s my ban reason ? -_-
27
#27
23 Frags +

You can complain all you want. The bottom line is that RGL has the entire NA 6's community by the balls because no other viable leagues exist.

Until an alternative appears, RGL can continue to add and enforce idiotic rules like this on the player base without worry. They literally have a rule to police scrims as if they own the players, servers and I guess the TF2 program installed on your computer.

You can complain all you want. The bottom line is that RGL has the entire NA 6's community by the balls because no other viable leagues exist.

Until an alternative appears, RGL can continue to add and enforce idiotic rules like this on the player base without worry. They literally have a rule to police scrims as if they own the players, servers and I guess the TF2 program installed on your computer.
28
#28
26 Frags +

these rules exist with such vague guidelines so that they can be enforced in varying degrees based on whether the person is liked/disliked by rgl admins

responses like the one makka gave in this thread are just the same damage control rgl always dishes out

your league is shit tier and nobody should be giving money to these monkey retards :P !

these rules exist with such vague guidelines so that they can be enforced in varying degrees based on whether the person is liked/disliked by rgl admins

responses like the one makka gave in this thread are just the same damage control rgl always dishes out

your league is shit tier and nobody should be giving money to these monkey retards :P !
29
#29
35 Frags +

I guess I'm curious about what the goal of this all is. If you're banned from rgl, you're not even able to scrim with friends any more? Like, I'm not going to comment on Indra and what he did or anything, it just seems very odd that "not only is he banned from the league, no one can play with him either." What if he rings for an etf2l team? Would those players get in trouble preemptively if rgl were ever to expand to Europe?

It seems as if rgl aims to try and suspend the player from the competitive tf2 scene entirely, not just the league, and that's a pretty scary precedent to set.

I guess I'm curious about what the goal of this all is. If you're banned from rgl, you're not even able to scrim with friends any more? Like, I'm not going to comment on Indra and what he did or anything, it just seems very odd that "not only is he banned from the league, no one can play with him either." What if he rings for an etf2l team? Would those players get in trouble preemptively if rgl were ever to expand to Europe?

It seems as if rgl aims to try and suspend the player from the competitive tf2 scene entirely, not just the league, and that's a pretty scary precedent to set.
30
#30
1 Frags +
THEBILLDOZERIf you're banned from rgl, you're not even able to scrim with friends any more?

Sure you can. You just can't keep spamming slurs after the ban

In the event that a banned player is playing in an RGL scrim or pickup game scrim of RGL players, and said player commits an act that would result in further bans, then the leader(s), active RGL player(s), and/or scrim organizer(s) responsible for that player's participation are subject to a possible league ban, in addition to a minor team penalty.
[quote=THEBILLDOZER]If you're banned from rgl, you're not even able to scrim with friends any more? [/quote]

Sure you can. You just can't keep spamming slurs after the ban

[quote]In the event that a banned player is playing in an RGL scrim or pickup game scrim of RGL players, and said player commits an act that would result in further bans, then the leader(s), active RGL player(s), and/or scrim organizer(s) responsible for that player's participation are subject to a possible league ban, in addition to a minor team penalty.[/quote]
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