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Offclassing social stigma
1
#1
0 Frags +

i was remembering about a team called Lowpander and how they were prem despite using really experimental tactics and how nobody wanted to scrim them for it and that got me thinking...

¿is offclassing not used to its full potential because of the social stigma associated to it? its usually considered BM, so its likely that there are countless yet-to-be-discovered offclassing strategies that are completelly viable

well.. idk about prem, but i know for sure than in newbie teams, they could have the least experienced players on permaheavy or pyro and perform way better than a pencil jumping soldier or 28 dpm scout.
Or, if you go sniper in any div, just the fact that you're on sniper makes the enemy play differently and likely to give you space for free;.or better yet, go spy and disguise as friendly sniper, then disguise as pootis, and then backstab their medic! i think thats exactly what comp tf2 needs
thoughts?

i was remembering about a team called Lowpander and how they were prem despite using really experimental tactics and how nobody wanted to scrim them for it and that got me thinking...

¿is offclassing not used to its full potential because of the social stigma associated to it? its usually considered BM, so its likely that there are countless yet-to-be-discovered offclassing strategies that are completelly viable

well.. idk about prem, but i know for sure than in newbie teams, they could have the least experienced players on permaheavy or pyro and perform way better than a pencil jumping soldier or 28 dpm scout.
Or, if you go sniper in any div, just the fact that you're on sniper makes the enemy play differently and likely to give you space for free;.or better yet, go spy and disguise as friendly sniper, then disguise as pootis, and then backstab their medic! i think thats exactly what comp tf2 needs
thoughts?
2
#2
32 Frags +

the way muuki is as a person made him offclassing extremely tilting to play against
it is not fun to play against
i dont know about you but id rather play vs two scouts than an engineer running around building minis everywhere
or a pyro being the pyro class

the way muuki is as a person made him offclassing extremely tilting to play against
it is not fun to play against
i dont know about you but id rather play vs two scouts than an engineer running around building minis everywhere
or a pyro being the pyro class
3
#3
whitelist.tf
-25 Frags +

I feel offclassing is under utilized, it's mostly seen on last defenses, sentries/heavies popping up, sniper trying to hold angles, very rarely you see an offclass pushing last that isn't a spy or sniper when a team gets desperate or bored of suiciding in and stalemating. An engie pushing with a lvl 3 is considered toxic, but it allows the other players on the team to keep moving forward and have some backup on a failed push.

But also unlocks used on the 'regular' classes are too ingrained, you rarely see kritz ran, every demoman uses iron bomber these days, barely see any quickie-bomb launchers clearing stickies from points or even soldiers running banners.

The refusal to allow any unlocks which could speed up the game even more (disciplinary action, quick-fix) that could make trying to run other classes viable is imo dumb. The sheer fear of a possible heavy to mid when a pyro with the current whitelist can already show up with backburner and thermal thruster + powerjack at the same time...

It is probably the fact that if one team starts running offclasses you are also forced to rock-paper-scissors to counter their offclass; and if your players are uncomfortable playing anything but all aim-no-brain scout, mge-only soldier and keep dying to the offclass they start tilting which doesn't improve comms to possibly hold or counter the offclass. Encounter a heavy on mid? Try to come up with a strat how to counter that, improve comms because of the enemy trying dumb shit you now know how to stop..

TLDR: Refusing to only play meta 2-2-1-1 is a legacy mindset; certain stalemates can be broken more easily with an offclass and/or unlock that are currently not used enough to surprise the enemy team. Refusing to scrim a team actually trying new things = dumb, that is what these practice games with 0 consequences should be for!

I feel offclassing is under utilized, it's mostly seen on last defenses, sentries/heavies popping up, sniper trying to hold angles, very rarely you see an offclass pushing last that isn't a spy or sniper when a team gets desperate or bored of suiciding in and stalemating. An engie pushing with a lvl 3 is considered toxic, but it allows the other players on the team to keep moving forward and have some backup on a failed push.

But also unlocks used on the 'regular' classes are too ingrained, you rarely see kritz ran, every demoman uses iron bomber these days, barely see any quickie-bomb launchers clearing stickies from points or even soldiers running banners.

The refusal to allow any unlocks which could speed up the game even more (disciplinary action, quick-fix) that could make trying to run other classes viable is imo dumb. The sheer fear of a possible heavy to mid when a pyro with the current whitelist can already show up with backburner and thermal thruster + powerjack at the same time...

It is probably the fact that if one team starts running offclasses you are also forced to [i]rock-paper-scissors[/i] to counter their offclass; and if your players are uncomfortable playing anything but all aim-no-brain scout, mge-only soldier and keep dying to the offclass they start tilting which doesn't improve comms to possibly hold or counter the offclass. Encounter a heavy on mid? Try to come up with a strat how to counter that, improve comms because of the enemy trying dumb shit you now know how to stop..

TLDR: Refusing to only play meta 2-2-1-1 is a legacy mindset; certain stalemates can be broken more easily with an offclass and/or unlock that are currently not used enough to surprise the enemy team. Refusing to scrim a team actually trying new things = dumb, that is what these practice games with 0 consequences should be for!
4
#4
48 Frags +
WiethoofdRefusing to scrim a team actually trying new things = dumb, that is what these practice games with 0 consequences should be for!

tf2 isnt a big esport
99.9% dont play scrims to spend at least an hour of their lives playing a game thats just blatantly less fun in the name of "breaking the boundaries"
Most people are just trying to have a good time
offclasses do not equal good times

[quote=Wiethoofd]
Refusing to scrim a team actually trying new things = dumb, that is what these practice games with 0 consequences should be for![/quote]
tf2 isnt a big esport
99.9% dont play scrims to spend at least an hour of their lives playing a game thats just blatantly less fun in the name of "breaking the boundaries"
Most people are just trying to have a good time
offclasses do not equal good times
5
#5
-25 Frags +
WandumWiethoofdRefusing to scrim a team actually trying new things = dumb, that is what these practice games with 0 consequences should be for!tf2 isnt a big esport
99.9% dont play scrims to spend at least an hour of their lives playing a game thats just blatantly less fun in the name of "breaking the boundaries"
Most people are just trying to have a good time
offclasses do not equal good times

man the fuck up, might as well ban sniper if you go with that logic

[quote=Wandum][quote=Wiethoofd]
Refusing to scrim a team actually trying new things = dumb, that is what these practice games with 0 consequences should be for![/quote]
tf2 isnt a big esport
99.9% dont play scrims to spend at least an hour of their lives playing a game thats just blatantly less fun in the name of "breaking the boundaries"
Most people are just trying to have a good time
offclasses do not equal good times[/quote]
man the fuck up, might as well ban sniper if you go with that logic
6
#6
68 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/V1UKSjw.png

shut up pyro main

[img]https://i.imgur.com/V1UKSjw.png[/img]
shut up pyro main
7
#7
35 Frags +

hl mains are the most opprossed minority

hl mains are the most opprossed minority
8
#8
-9 Frags +
Wandumthe way muuki is as a person made him offclassing extremely tilting to play against
it is not fun to play against

but whats truly tilting about it? the fact that its a non-meta class killing you, or the actual class itself regardless of what the meta is? a big part of it is the fact that we dont consider many classes and loadouts serious in a 6v6 environment imo, so its way more tilting when they kill you,. but tilting the opponent can be a tactic too, like people who teabag in fighting games or beat people with low tier characters or whatever

[quote=Wandum]the way muuki is as a person made him offclassing extremely tilting to play against
it is not fun to play against
[/quote]
but whats truly tilting about it? the fact that its a non-meta class killing you, or the actual class itself regardless of what the meta is? a big part of it is the fact that we dont consider many classes and loadouts serious in a 6v6 environment imo, so its way more tilting when they kill you,. but tilting the opponent can be a tactic too, like people who teabag in fighting games or beat people with low tier characters or whatever
9
#9
9 Frags +
Wandumhttps://i.imgur.com/V1UKSjw.png
shut up pyro main

https://imgur.com/a/5d6CvCv hombre...

[quote=Wandum][img]https://i.imgur.com/V1UKSjw.png[/img]
shut up pyro main[/quote]
https://imgur.com/a/5d6CvCv hombre...
10
#10
28 Frags +
sage

Lowpander had Muuki play stare-at-the-door roamer whenever they needed to win
If offclassing had potential, you would see teams try it in officials (if you can spare a round for experimentation or are in a position where you have nothing to lose), teams shouldn't and don't care about "social stigma" if they're trying to win
I highly doubt there are "unknown" viable strategies that revolve around running funny classes at this point, we've been playing for over 10 years, the last few years have contained no gameplay change
I think it's short sighted to believe that strategy could only consist of running a different class or gun, is this belief commonly shared because that's what ends up being broadcasted? Does the analysis in casts manage to cover the intricacy of what actually happens in games? I couldn't tell you

Wiethoofd

Iron bomber are vastly superior in most situations, I do see kritz, quickies, banners being used in situations where they make sense
Just like the medic leash speed buff, DA and QF could never speed the game up
I think you're absolutely overestimating how powerful heavy/TT pyro to mid is, the first is countered by zoning and the other is countered by scouts
You absolutely don't need to rock-paper-scissor to counter offclasses, the bullshit 7v7 infographics got to you
I'm not sure of what kind of stalemates you believe could be broken by an offclass, MOST stalemates I see are caused by a sniper trying to pick a med or some last hold containing a combination of heavy/engineer/pyro.

sacmight as well ban sniper if you go with that logic

Yes.

[quote=sage][/quote]
Lowpander had Muuki play stare-at-the-door roamer whenever they needed to win
If offclassing had potential, you would see teams try it in officials (if you can spare a round for experimentation or are in a position where you have nothing to lose), teams shouldn't and don't care about "social stigma" if they're trying to win
I highly doubt there are "unknown" viable strategies that revolve around running funny classes at this point, we've been playing for over 10 years, the last few years have contained no gameplay change
I think it's short sighted to believe that strategy could only consist of running a different class or gun, is this belief commonly shared because that's what ends up being broadcasted? Does the analysis in casts manage to cover the intricacy of what actually happens in games? I couldn't tell you

[quote=Wiethoofd][/quote]
Iron bomber are vastly superior in most situations, I do see kritz, quickies, banners being used in situations where they make sense
Just like the medic leash speed buff, DA and QF could never speed the game up
I think you're absolutely overestimating how powerful heavy/TT pyro to mid is, the first is countered by zoning and the other is countered by scouts
You absolutely don't need to rock-paper-scissor to counter offclasses, the bullshit 7v7 infographics got to you
I'm not sure of what kind of stalemates you believe could be broken by an offclass, MOST stalemates I see are caused by a sniper trying to pick a med or some last hold containing a combination of heavy/engineer/pyro.


[quote=sac]might as well ban sniper if you go with that logic[/quote]
Yes.
11
#11
40 Frags +

Doesnt matter sac 1.6k hrs on pyro isnt redeemable

Doesnt matter sac 1.6k hrs on pyro isnt redeemable
12
#12
36 Frags +

Most offclassing you see in the lower divs are from high div highlander players running their main

Most offclassing you see in the lower divs are from high div highlander players running their main
13
#13
48 Frags +
WiethoofdThe refusal to allow any unlocks which could speed up the game even more (quick-fix)

what do you even say to this honestly

[quote=Wiethoofd]
The refusal to allow any unlocks which could speed up the game even more (quick-fix)
[/quote]

what do you even say to this honestly
14
#14
3 Frags +

STFU!! stfu bro.

STFU!! stfu bro.
15
#15
5 Frags +

im not reading this thread but if you arent running pyro to defend badlands second and last or to push blands last you dont wanna win

im not reading this thread but if you arent running pyro to defend badlands second and last or to push blands last you dont wanna win
16
#16
-11 Frags +
sniffim not reading this thread but if you arent running pyro to defend badlands second and last or to push blands last you dont wanna win

it's not about winning it's about being better than your opponent.

[quote=sniff]im not reading this thread but if you arent running pyro to defend badlands second and last or to push blands last you dont wanna win[/quote]
it's not about winning it's about being better than your opponent.
17
#17
34 Frags +

If you're scrimming a team on a map like product and you ask them to not run a sniper you're just robbing yourself of learning how to deal with one as a team

e:
also I would say context matters a lot. If you're getting rolled by a team and they start trolling by offclassing then its just wasting your time, but if they offclass in any other context you should just try to deal with it as if you were in a match

If you're scrimming a team on a map like product and you ask them to not run a sniper you're just robbing yourself of learning how to deal with one as a team

e:
also I would say context matters a lot. If you're getting rolled by a team and they start trolling by offclassing then its just wasting your time, but if they offclass in any other context you should just try to deal with it as if you were in a match
18
#18
39 Frags +

seeing mak walk out of spawn door as engineer 2 minutes into the game makes my blood boil

seeing mak walk out of spawn door as engineer 2 minutes into the game makes my blood boil
19
#19
53 Frags +

lowpander is a perfect example of offclassing for the sake of it rather than actually 'pushing the boundaries' of the meta

there might've been decent ideas in some of the random shit they did but they didn't recognise what actually had merit and there was little to no thought behind the class compositions

lowpander is a perfect example of offclassing for the sake of it rather than actually 'pushing the boundaries' of the meta

there might've been decent ideas in some of the random shit they did but they didn't recognise what actually had merit and there was little to no thought behind the class compositions
20
#20
-7 Frags +
Show Content
POOTIS
[spoiler]POOTIS[/spoiler]
21
#21
17 Frags +

guys lets unban the wrangler for the sake of progress :) lets see how fast lasts become

guys lets unban the wrangler for the sake of progress :) lets see how fast lasts become
22
#22
4 Frags +

there are certainly situations for offclassing other than just holding last, especially in high level play, and everyone has their own sort of meter for when they find it acceptable. for some it's "soldier is boring but i'm good at sniper" and for some it's "i bet i can get a backstab on this medic before we push last" (you both know who you are!).

since i've never really enjoyed pubs personally, it is something that i find difficult to grapple with. if i'm not in official play i usually don't waste my time when it goes BEYOND situational, and will just find opponents who wish to play the same game i do. so, maybe that's the problem- at a certain point, it stops being the same game.

there are certainly situations for offclassing other than just holding last, especially in high level play, and everyone has their own sort of meter for when they find it acceptable. for some it's "soldier is boring but i'm good at sniper" and for some it's "i bet i can get a backstab on this medic before we push last" (you both know who you are!).

since i've never really enjoyed pubs personally, it is something that i find difficult to grapple with. if i'm not in official play i usually don't waste my time when it goes BEYOND situational, and will just find opponents who wish to play the same game i do. so, maybe that's the problem- at a certain point, it stops being the same game.
23
#23
23 Frags +

Offclasses just make the flow of the game sooo much worse, especially pushing lasts. A lot of time in stalemates is used just trying to take down a gun which is incredibly hard because when you try and pressure the choke the engi’s teammates are just going to spam or snipe you, not to mention he is repairing his gun all the time or might have a pyro. You could actually take some phat ubers if sniper didn’t exist also but you have to pop earlier than you would have so you don’t get headshot.

If these classes didn’t exist I think the game would become way more skillful and less stalematey because everyone on your team would have to have good positioning and health management to adapt to their strat and punish the other team. Right now teams don’t have to risk anything because they can just stand back with a gun which you can’t spam before the push because you will get headshot.

Offclasses just make the flow of the game sooo much worse, especially pushing lasts. A lot of time in stalemates is used just trying to take down a gun which is incredibly hard because when you try and pressure the choke the engi’s teammates are just going to spam or snipe you, not to mention he is repairing his gun all the time or might have a pyro. You could actually take some phat ubers if sniper didn’t exist also but you have to pop earlier than you would have so you don’t get headshot.

If these classes didn’t exist I think the game would become way more skillful and less stalematey because everyone on your team would have to have good positioning and health management to adapt to their strat and punish the other team. Right now teams don’t have to risk anything because they can just stand back with a gun which you can’t spam before the push because you will get headshot.
24
#24
3 Frags +

If it was viable at high levels people would run it in high levels. Lower teams are not practicing to play optimally at a low shity skill level. They are trying to get better and play at a higher level and excessive offclassing would be counterproductive to this.

If it was viable at high levels people would run it in high levels. Lower teams are not practicing to play optimally at a low shity skill level. They are trying to get better and play at a higher level and excessive offclassing would be counterproductive to this.
25
#25
16 Frags +
WiethoofdThe refusal to allow any unlocks which could speed up the game even more (disciplinary action, quick-fix) that could make trying to run other classes viable is imo dumb. The sheer fear of a possible heavy to mid when a pyro with the current whitelist can already show up with backburner and thermal thruster + powerjack at the same time...

if only heavy could be more viable, the game would be so much faster!!

[quote=Wiethoofd]
The refusal to allow any unlocks which could speed up the game even more (disciplinary action, quick-fix) that could make trying to run other classes viable is imo dumb. The sheer fear of a possible heavy to mid when a pyro with the current whitelist can already show up with backburner and thermal thruster + powerjack at the same time...
[/quote]
if only heavy could be more viable, the game would be so much faster!!
26
#26
10 Frags +

It's about time someone stood up to the Froyo menace. Long ago superior offclassing teams were phased out of existence due to not being able to get any scrims. Unfortunately I cannot remember the names of these superior teams as I am now a fragile old man.

Not only this but they lobby against superior unlocks in the name of "balance" and "fun" but in actuality they know these weapons would be their demise. They are afraid so they employ their lemmings to spout their rhetoric designed to enslave us; use your eyes and you will know this to be true.

I no longer have the strength to continue and I fear I may be silenced... permanently. Take me; I say take me forum mods for I am no longer afraid. For those that can still read this please keep fighting the good fight, they can't keep getting away with this.

It's about time someone stood up to the Froyo menace. Long ago superior offclassing teams were phased out of existence due to not being able to get any scrims. Unfortunately I cannot remember the names of these superior teams as I am now a fragile old man.

Not only this but they lobby against superior unlocks in the name of "balance" and "fun" but in actuality they know these weapons would be their demise. They are afraid so they employ their lemmings to spout their rhetoric designed to enslave us; use your eyes and you will know this to be true.

I no longer have the strength to continue and I fear I may be silenced... permanently. Take me; I say take me forum mods for I am no longer afraid. For those that can still read this please keep fighting the good fight, they can't keep getting away with this.
27
#27
-5 Frags +

What the community considers as 'cancerous offclassing' like building guns on 4th CP or even not showing up to mid when leading would be done much more often if this game had any significant money on the line. As Starkie said in the midst of all the shit plays involving gimmicky classes and items there are some things that stand out as effective.

What the community considers as 'cancerous offclassing' like building guns on 4th CP or even not showing up to mid when leading would be done much more often if this game had any significant money on the line. As Starkie said in the midst of all the shit plays involving gimmicky classes and items there are some things that stand out as effective.
28
#28
27 Frags +

engineer classlimit 0

There I fixed 6v6

engineer classlimit 0

There I fixed 6v6
29
#29
37 Frags +
Corbacengineer classlimit 0

There I fixed 6v6

sorry bro BTS is happening and we're about to boom as an e sport! we can't remove engi or pubbers will tune in and promptly say 'hmm where is mr engi' which would be VERY damaging to our image and will jeopardise our future as an e sport

[quote=Corbac]engineer classlimit 0

There I fixed 6v6[/quote]

sorry bro BTS is happening and we're about to boom as an e sport! we can't remove engi or pubbers will tune in and promptly say 'hmm where is mr engi' which would be VERY damaging to our image and will jeopardise our future as an e sport
30
#30
15 Frags +

Who cares what anyone thinks about offclassing??

I literally ofclassed at an ESEA-LAN more than I played my main in semifinals and got 2nd. If you can actually do useful stuff on an offclass then yea use it, who gives a shit? If someone is mad at you because it's working then you did your job, it literally doesn't matter as long as your team is ok with it and you're able make plays.

Not gonna lie, an entire team of offclassers is pretty stupid to play with as that could never work at the highest level. If they managed to win prem just offclassing then I'd say it's a legit strat, otherwise it's just a clownfest wasting their own time.

Who cares what anyone thinks about offclassing??

I literally ofclassed at an ESEA-LAN more than I played my main in semifinals and got 2nd. If you can actually do useful stuff on an offclass then yea use it, who gives a shit? If someone is mad at you because it's working then you did your job, it literally doesn't matter as long as your team is ok with it and you're able make plays.

Not gonna lie, an entire team of offclassers is pretty stupid to play with as that could never work at the highest level. If they managed to win prem just offclassing then I'd say it's a legit strat, otherwise it's just a clownfest wasting their own time.
1 2 3
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