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1 2 3 4 ⋅⋅ 8
froyotech benched from playing as a team in RGL
1
#1
0 Frags +

http://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1082

sigafooI, like many others, have been waiting for “other people to just get better,” but it hasn’t happened. Not when you have one team win 14 of the last 16 seasons of ESEA. Not when they haven’t lost a single ESEA or RGL match two years straight. While we can wait for the situation to change, it does not look like it will on its own.

I personally see his point, but was this the appropriate measure?

This call was made after ESEA's changes to their league: https://play.esea.net/index.php?s=forums&d=topic&id=1168717

http://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1082
[quote=sigafoo]I, like many others, have been waiting for “other people to just get better,” but it hasn’t happened. Not when you have one team win 14 of the last 16 seasons of ESEA. Not when they haven’t lost a single ESEA or RGL match two years straight. While we can wait for the situation to change, it does not look like it will on its own.[/quote]

I personally see his point, but was this the appropriate measure?

This call was made after ESEA's changes to their league: https://play.esea.net/index.php?s=forums&d=topic&id=1168717
2
#2
36 Frags +

Yeah! Salary cap!

Yeah! Salary cap!
3
#3
248 Frags +

You shouldn't punish teams just for being better than the competition, regardless of how big the gap appears.

You shouldn't punish teams just for being better than the competition, regardless of how big the gap appears.
4
#4
17 Frags +

this is extremely funny and good

this is extremely funny and good
5
#5
10 Frags +

lmao

edit: is it just the players on froyotech right now? what about all the past players that have been on the team and have won Invite/other shit etc?

lmao

edit: is it just the players on froyotech right now? what about all the past players that have been on the team and have won Invite/other shit etc?
6
#6
139 Frags +

damn it all my money is going to froyotech in my incredible league

damn it all my money is going to froyotech in my incredible league
7
#7
-10 Frags +

POGGERS

POGGERS
8
#8
174 Frags +

it's ingenius really, sigafoo realized 7v7 was a huge mistake, opened a HL league and now he's doing his best to murder his 7v7 league but making the murder look like it was from the players

it's ingenius really, sigafoo realized 7v7 was a huge mistake, opened a HL league and now he's doing his best to murder his 7v7 league but making the murder look like it was from the players
9
#9
149 Frags +

totally outrageous that sixes players keep winning in MY format [which (UNLIKE SIXES) allows for a fulltime role of the complex body of work that is the engineer class]

totally outrageous that sixes players keep winning in MY format [which (UNLIKE SIXES) allows for a fulltime role of the complex body of work that is the engineer class]
10
#10
Twitch Prime
21 Frags +

Who could have imagined that some of the best 6s players would still be good with a perma sniper
What an absolute joke, but what are we gonna do, you think people are gonna boycot it now that they have an actual chance of making money?

Who could have imagined that some of the best 6s players would still be good with a perma sniper
What an absolute joke, but what are we gonna do, you think people are gonna boycot it now that they have an actual chance of making money?
11
#11
81 Frags +

"every other team is shit in comparison and nobody wants to actually try in my autismo gamemode, better give them less money as a result"

sigafoo on crack or something bruh actually doesnt understand what competition and being the best means.

"every other team is shit in comparison and nobody wants to actually try in my autismo gamemode, better give them less money as a result"

sigafoo on crack or something bruh actually doesnt understand what competition and being the best means.
12
#12
22 Frags +

this is really funny
now this is the only time i really hope b4nny wins with the teamname froyotech just so sigafoo gets pissed

this is really funny
now this is the only time i really hope b4nny wins with the teamname froyotech just so sigafoo gets pissed
13
#13
26 Frags +

you SIMPLETONS don’t realize how much of an alpha move sigafoo just played.

you SIMPLETONS don’t realize how much of an alpha move sigafoo just played.
14
#14
15 Frags +

ah yes... froyotech it was your time to go....
FROYOBLACK Now Competing In Recharge Gaming League (© Recharge Gaming League LLC) Season 5 7v7 League
HYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ah yes... froyotech it was your time to go....
FROYOBLACK Now Competing In Recharge Gaming League (© Recharge Gaming League LLC) Season 5 7v7 League
HYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15
#15
65 Frags +

yo this is actually the biggest meme and i love it

the real kicker is right here

the articleTF2 is not the first game to run into this. Almost every single professional sports league has rules in place to try and prevent this from happening. Having one team siphon all of the best talent does not make for a healthy competitive ecosystem, and RGL is inclined to agree with the ideas of the rules that professional leagues have done to try and prevent this.

uhh what? What kind of league puts a limit on team prize earnings (salary is monthly pay, wierd use of the term by him but w/e) or restrictions on talent moves? rn in pretty much every other esport the reason talent siphering doesnt happen like it does in tf2 is for 3 pretty important distinctions

1. other esports have player contracts with large buyouts
2. other esports don't have as small a top talent pool as tf2
3. the team in question has the only player both willing and fiscally able to put basically their entire life into competing in tf2

If the goal is to host a competition and incentivize and reward top level play with prizes (like literally every other fucking esports league?) then why would you punish someone for dominating? I hate seeing froyo win as much as the next person (someone kidnap vand/voll/corsa for bird noises 2 please) but like this isnt the way to do it. Also, calling froyo unbeatable is kind of a joke, especially considering the diversity of the roster game in recent events

TLDR; sigafoo is big dumb and doesnt understand how to run a league (go figure)
edit: i cant count to 3

yo this is actually the biggest meme and i love it

the real kicker is right here
[quote=the article]TF2 is not the first game to run into this. Almost every single professional sports league has rules in place to try and prevent this from happening. Having one team siphon all of the best talent does not make for a healthy competitive ecosystem, and RGL is inclined to agree with the ideas of the rules that professional leagues have done to try and prevent this.[/quote]
uhh what? What kind of league puts a limit on team prize earnings (salary is monthly pay, wierd use of the term by him but w/e) or restrictions on talent moves? rn in pretty much every other esport the reason talent siphering doesnt happen like it does in tf2 is for 3 pretty important distinctions

1. other esports have player contracts with large buyouts
2. other esports don't have as small a top talent pool as tf2
3. the team in question has the only player both willing and fiscally able to put basically their entire life into competing in tf2

If the goal is to host a competition and incentivize and reward top level play with prizes (like literally every other fucking esports league?) then why would you punish someone for dominating? I hate seeing froyo win as much as the next person (someone kidnap vand/voll/corsa for bird noises 2 please) but like this isnt the way to do it. Also, calling froyo unbeatable is kind of a joke, especially considering the diversity of the roster game in recent events

TLDR; sigafoo is big dumb and doesnt understand how to run a league (go figure)
edit: i cant count to 3
16
#16
42 Frags +

"All [Froyotech] players will be allowed to play in RGL, but no more than one of them can be roster/play on the same team."

Seems pretty extreme to not only break up the team, but also restrict *any* of froyo from playing together. I understand why sigafoo would do this, but it gimps your credibility as a competitive league when you have rules in place artificially lowering the highest level of skilled gameplay.

"All [Froyotech] players will be allowed to play in RGL, but no more than one of them can be roster/play on the same team."

Seems pretty extreme to not only break up the team, but also restrict *any* of froyo from playing together. I understand why sigafoo would do this, but it gimps your credibility as a competitive league when you have rules in place artificially lowering the highest level of skilled gameplay.
17
#17
88 Frags +

now you have to deliberately throw games so you don't get banned for being too good
great for competition

now you have to deliberately throw games so you don't get banned for being too good
great for competition
18
#18
39 Frags +

sigafoo took my nerd essay a bit too seriously it seems

sigafoo took my nerd essay a bit too seriously it seems
19
#19
Spaceship Servers
58 Frags +

sigafool

sigafool
20
#20
130 Frags +

nothing screams 'dead game format' louder than 'were banning u guys from playing cuz ur too good together'

nothing screams 'dead game format' louder than 'were banning u guys from playing cuz ur too good together'
21
#21
8 Frags +

hypercringe

hypercringe
22
#22
7 Frags +
GrapeJuiceIIIsigafoo took my nerd essay a bit too seriously it seems

why did it have to be option b

Why Have You Willed This Into Existence, Grape Juice The Third???

[quote=GrapeJuiceIII]sigafoo took my nerd essay a bit too seriously it seems[/quote]
why did it have to be option b

Why Have You Willed This Into Existence, Grape Juice The Third???
23
#23
5 Frags +

you hate to see it

you hate to see it
24
#24
58 Frags +
SigafooIn the peek of competitive TF2

All respect lost

[quote=Sigafoo]In the peek of competitive TF2[/quote]

All respect lost
25
#25
28 Frags +

 

 
26
#26
30 Frags +

finally someone bans b4nny...

finally someone bans b4nny...
27
#27
94 Frags +
sigafooI, like many others, have been waiting for “other people to just get better,” but it hasn’t happened.

This sentence is incredibly insulting. It is not only insulting to Ascent S28 or any teams in Invite past or present who have worked hard to at least put up a good fight against froyotech (and players from S28 Ascent after the GF went on-record saying despite the results and joining froyo S29, they still busted their ass), as well as any other team that has won or closely fought against froyotech (Se7en at i63, who basically spilled blood in the water and influenced even retired NA players like sharks to swim back to Invite), but it's insulting to the players and teams participating in RGL 7v7.

I used to think this shit about froyotech too, I'd like to think that I don't think like this anymore, and I, like Console, am waiting with baited breath for the day froyotech loses. If you had banned froyotech for anything else like if that "no personal stream" rule is still in effect, or BM inside/outside of matches, that might have actually had integrity - in comparison to this. Not only did you ban froyotech for winning, you banned them because you implied your players are bad.

This sentence shouldn't have even been in the RGL post. It's not professional, it could have gone on a personal Twitter as a Twitlonger, it could have whittled this down to just say "due to froyo winning too much we decided to enforce this policy" - still would have had the same reaction, but is cleaner. But in it being part of RGL's statement, it devalues the effort that teams have been attempting to put into sigafoo's league. Consider that some teams are also investing effort into things other than RGL. That means they have put shit to the side, to make the time to participate & invest commitment into RGL 7s.

If sigafoo wanted more teams to take your league seriously and invest in it more in terms of commitment to getting better, demeaning teams and saying them improving "hasn't happened" because froyotech has not lost yet, then banning froyotech for being a super team and adding a salary cap, should be taken as a slap to the face to RGL's competitors.

To those of you from RGL 7s who might be reading this: you might think it's easier this time around to win money and everybody to have a fairer chance, and at least it fosters a friendlier environment than dat elitist toxic TFTV 6v6, which might very well be fair too. But your league owner also basically implied it wasn't worth waiting for you to get better anymore - regardless of how much you may have actually improved or committed to playing - and that's why he himself decided only he could bring about change. And I personally don't know if that's worth your time or support.

[quote=sigafoo]I, like many others, have been waiting for “other people to just get better,” but it hasn’t happened.[/quote]This sentence is [i]incredibly[/i] insulting. It is not only insulting to Ascent S28 or any teams in Invite past or present who have worked hard to at least put up a good fight against froyotech (and players from S28 Ascent after the GF went on-record saying [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/post/892209/the-state-of-esea-invite-a-nerd-essay]despite the results[/url] and joining froyo S29, they still [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/post/892133/the-state-of-esea-invite-a-nerd-essay]busted their ass[/url]), as well as any other team that has won or closely fought against froyotech (Se7en at i63, who basically spilled blood in the water and influenced even retired NA players like sharks to swim back to Invite), but it's insulting to the players and teams participating in RGL 7v7.

I used to think this shit about froyotech too, I'd like to think that I don't think like this anymore, and I, like Console, am waiting with baited breath for the day froyotech loses. If you had banned froyotech for anything else like if that "no personal stream" rule is still in effect, or BM inside/outside of matches, that might have actually had integrity - in comparison to this. Not only did you ban froyotech for winning, you banned them because you implied your players are bad.

This sentence shouldn't have even been in the RGL post. It's not professional, it could have gone on a personal Twitter as a Twitlonger, it could have whittled this down to just say "due to froyo winning too much we decided to enforce this policy" - still would have had the same reaction, but is cleaner. But in it being part of RGL's statement, it devalues the effort that teams have been attempting to put into sigafoo's league. Consider that some teams are also investing effort into things other than RGL. That means they have put shit to the side, to make the time to participate & invest commitment into RGL 7s.

If sigafoo wanted more teams to take your league seriously and invest in it more in terms of commitment to getting better, demeaning teams and saying them improving "hasn't happened" because froyotech has not lost yet, then banning froyotech for being a super team and adding a salary cap, should be taken as a slap to the face to RGL's competitors.

To those of you from RGL 7s who might be reading this: you might think it's easier this time around to win money and everybody to have a fairer chance, and at least it fosters a friendlier environment than dat elitist toxic TFTV 6v6, which might very well be fair too. But your league owner also basically implied it wasn't worth waiting for you to get better anymore - regardless of how much you may have actually improved or committed to playing - and that's why he himself decided only he could bring about change. And I personally don't know if that's worth your time or support.
28
#28
135 Frags +

what the hell how am i supposed to pay my bills now
im setting up a patreon

what the hell how am i supposed to pay my bills now
im setting up a patreon
29
#29
15 Frags +

Yeah I have to say this is ridiculous. What's the point in playing if, once you start winning, you just get banned? Banning a team doesn't incentivize teams to get as good as Froyo, it incentivizes them to get as good as second place, thereby lowering the skill. Sure it might make matches closer, but this is a competitive league, where you play for first, you play to win.

Yeah I have to say this is ridiculous. What's the point in playing if, once you start winning, you just get banned? Banning a team doesn't incentivize teams to get as good as Froyo, it incentivizes them to get as good as second place, thereby lowering the skill. Sure it might make matches closer, but this is a competitive league, where you play for first, you play to win.
30
#30
RGL.gg
-181 Frags +
Console-If the goal is to host a competition and incentivize and reward top level play with prizes (like literally every other fucking esports league?) then why would you punish someone for dominating?

Yes, having more money to incentivize more players to play the game full time professionally, so you have a larger pool of top-tier talent that plays would be the better solution. I think that's pretty obvious, unfortunately, TF2 doesn't have that kind of money. Else you would see other teams stepping up over the last 16 seasons to contest froyotech more than twice in ESEA with a 15-20k prize pool.

Console-Also, calling froyo unbeatable is kind of a joke

I didn't call them unbeatable. I simply listed out facts. They've basically won every major tournament in the last 3 years and have lost a game in the last two years straight. They beat the second best team int he country in the grand finals 5-0 on both maps. Those are the facts. Those are the words I said.

Console- especially considering the diversity of the roster game in recent events

I think it's very awesome to see a rejuvenation of teams coming back to ESEA. Were seeing a similiar thing happening in the RGL HL league.

zotohSeems pretty extreme to not only break up the team, but also restrict *any* of froyo from playing together.

I agree that the rule is going far, possibly too far. As it says in the article, we plan to reevaluate after the season. It's possible we may relax it or remove it all together.

zotohI understand why sigafoo would do this, but it gimps your credibility as a competitive league when you have rules in place artificially lowering the highest level of skilled gameplay.

I think everything you said is very fair and true. We are artificially lowering the skill ceiling, but ultimately it's a question of what's more important. Having, essentially, every best player on one team with a skill gap, seemingly, so large that no other teams are beating them over the course of years, in every format, or a more balanced competitive environment.

The idea of trying to have talent be distributed throughout a league rather than be siphoned onto a single team is not new. To say that artificially lowering the highest level of teams makes a league-worst, would mean that there is gimp credibility with the NFL. Which has a salary cap that you cannot go over, artificially lowering how strong one team can be. The NBA has a soft salary cap, attempting to artificially lowering teams skill levels. The MLB has a salary cap luxury tax, to punish teams financially who overspend on the max salary a team can have, to try and artificially lower teams skill. (Also see NHL, CFL, and MLS)

Each league has introduced a system, to attempt to stop teams from gathering all of the best players onto one team.
We made the choice for the greater community, maybe it's the wrong one. We'll find out after this season and find out how competitive it is.

Reerothis is really funny
now this is the only time i really hope b4nny wins with the teamname froyotech just so sigafoo gets pissed

I had a long convo with b4nny and this is one of the first things I mentioned to him, that he could do.

ReeroYeah I have to say this is ridiculous. What's the point in playing if, once you start winning, you just get banned? Banning a team doesn't incentivize teams to get as good as Froyo, it incentivizes them to get as good as second place, thereby lowering the skill. Sure it might make matches closer, but this is a competitive league, where you play for first, you play to win.

Nope, that's not at all what this is about. As it says in the article, it's highly unlikely that we would ever consider doing something like this again. While I think your slippery slope concerns are valid, it's clear that this is an extraordinary situation, not a normal one. There's a difference between a team doing well and a team with a clear skill gap for multiple years.

uberchainThis sentence is incredibly insulting. It is not only insulting to Ascent S28 or any teams in Invite past or present who have worked hard to at least put up a good fight against froyotech (and players from S28 Ascent after the GF went on-record saying despite the results and joining froyo S29, they still busted their ass), as well as any other team that has won or closely fought against froyotech...

The reason I put that in quotes is that it's something that I've read many times before, whenever these conversations come up. To try and stretch and contort my words to somehow say that I'm insulting players and deeming their efforts is disgusting. I'm fine with being called every name in the book on here, but to try and twist something so clearly not intended that way is disappointing, to say the least.

messiahdamn it all my money is going to froyotech in my incredible league

I'm happy that b4nny has had really great success, he definitely has earned it. He's a nice dude, I've chatted with him several times. However, as it says in the article, we had to make a choice. Do we allow this team with a clear skill gap in both ESEA and RGL to exist untether to see if this is the season where someone can cross that valley? But after seeing the dominant performances out of Froyotech in the ESEA Grand Finals, where they beat Ascent, not even dropping a round. Made me question if anyone, in any format, could cross that valley. And that's where this decision is coming from.

As I said, I think this season of ESEA is looking great. A lot of energy going on inside of it and that wouldn't be happening if my rule was in effect in ESEA.

This isn't something I decided lightly or on a whim. And it's not even something I 100% agree with, but I felt like action needed to be taken. I'm not going to say that I'm right and this rule is definitely not ideal. I saw a problem and I made an attempt to resolve it. It's a problem that you hope the community resolves on its own, but it wasn't seeming to do that in any format over several years.

All of the criticism, calling me a fool, dumb, etc... All fair, because I could be completely wrong about this. Of all of the decision that I've made, this is the one I'm least confident about. So we'll find out, either it'll be a massive flop that we made an extraordinary rule for an extraordinary situation, or it'll help the healthiness/balance of the league. I'm curious to see myself.

[quote=Console-]
If the goal is to host a competition and incentivize and reward top level play with prizes (like literally every other fucking esports league?) then why would you punish someone for dominating? [/quote]

Yes, having more money to incentivize more players to play the game full time professionally, so you have a larger pool of top-tier talent that plays would be the better solution. I think that's pretty obvious, unfortunately, TF2 doesn't have that kind of money. Else you would see other teams stepping up over the last 16 seasons to contest froyotech more than twice in ESEA with a 15-20k prize pool.

[quote=Console-]Also, calling froyo unbeatable is kind of a joke[/quote]

I didn't call them unbeatable. I simply listed out facts. They've basically won every major tournament in the last 3 years and have lost a game in the last two years straight. They beat the second best team int he country in the grand finals 5-0 on both maps. Those are the facts. Those are the words I said.

[quote=Console-] especially considering the diversity of the roster game in recent events[/quote]

I think it's very awesome to see a rejuvenation of teams coming back to ESEA. Were seeing a similiar thing happening in the RGL HL league.

[quote=zotoh]Seems pretty extreme to not only break up the team, but also restrict *any* of froyo from playing together. [/quote]

I agree that the rule is going far, possibly too far. As it says in the article, we plan to reevaluate after the season. It's possible we may relax it or remove it all together.

[quote=zotoh]I understand why sigafoo would do this, but it gimps your credibility as a competitive league when you have rules in place artificially lowering the highest level of skilled gameplay.[/quote]

I think everything you said is very fair and true. We are artificially lowering the skill ceiling, but ultimately it's a question of what's more important. Having, essentially, every best player on one team with a skill gap, seemingly, so large that no other teams are beating them over the course of years, in every format, or a more balanced competitive environment.

The idea of trying to have talent be distributed throughout a league rather than be siphoned onto a single team is not new. To say that artificially lowering the highest level of teams makes a league-worst, would mean that there is gimp credibility with the NFL. Which has a salary cap that you cannot go over, artificially lowering how strong one team can be. The NBA has a soft salary cap, attempting to artificially lowering teams skill levels. The MLB has a salary cap luxury tax, to punish teams financially who overspend on the max salary a team can have, to try and artificially lower teams skill. (Also see NHL, CFL, and MLS)

Each league has introduced a system, to attempt to stop teams from gathering all of the best players onto one team.
We made the choice for the greater community, maybe it's the wrong one. We'll find out after this season and find out how competitive it is.

[quote=Reero]this is really funny
now this is the only time i really hope b4nny wins with the teamname froyotech just so sigafoo gets pissed[/quote]

I had a long convo with b4nny and this is one of the first things I mentioned to him, that he could do.

[quote=Reero]Yeah I have to say this is ridiculous. What's the point in playing if, once you start winning, you just get banned? Banning a team doesn't incentivize teams to get as good as Froyo, it incentivizes them to get as good as second place, thereby lowering the skill. Sure it might make matches closer, but this is a competitive league, where you play for first, you play to win.[/quote]

Nope, that's not at all what this is about. As it says in the article, it's highly unlikely that we would ever consider doing something like this again. While I think your slippery slope concerns are valid, it's clear that this is an extraordinary situation, not a normal one. There's a difference between a team doing well and a team with a clear skill gap for multiple years.

[quote=uberchain]This sentence is incredibly insulting. It is not only insulting to Ascent S28 or any teams in Invite past or present who have worked hard to at least put up a good fight against froyotech (and players from S28 Ascent after the GF went on-record saying despite the results and joining froyo S29, they still busted their ass), as well as any other team that has won or closely fought against froyotech...[/quote]

The reason I put that in quotes is that it's something that I've read many times before, whenever these conversations come up. To try and stretch and contort my words to somehow say that I'm insulting players and deeming their efforts is disgusting. I'm fine with being called every name in the book on here, but to try and twist something so clearly not intended that way is disappointing, to say the least.

[quote=messiah]damn it all my money is going to froyotech in my incredible league[/quote]

I'm happy that b4nny has had really great success, he definitely has earned it. He's a nice dude, I've chatted with him several times. However, as it says in the article, we had to make a choice. Do we allow this team with a clear skill gap in both ESEA and RGL to exist untether to see if [i]this is the season[/i] where someone can cross that valley? But after seeing the dominant performances out of Froyotech in the ESEA Grand Finals, where they beat Ascent, not even dropping a round. Made me question if anyone, in any format, could cross that valley. And that's where this decision is coming from.

As I said, I think this season of ESEA is looking great. A lot of energy going on inside of it and that wouldn't be happening if my rule was in effect in ESEA.

This isn't something I decided lightly or on a whim. And it's not even something I 100% agree with, but I felt like action needed to be taken. I'm not going to say that I'm right and this rule is definitely not ideal. I saw a problem and I made an attempt to resolve it. It's a problem that you hope the community resolves on its own, but it wasn't seeming to do that in any format over several years.

All of the criticism, calling me a fool, dumb, etc... All fair, because I could be completely wrong about this. Of all of the decision that I've made, this is the one I'm least confident about. So we'll find out, either it'll be a massive flop that we made an extraordinary rule for an extraordinary situation, or it'll help the healthiness/balance of the league. I'm curious to see myself.
1 2 3 4 ⋅⋅ 8
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