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tf2 scene in 2038
31
#31
1 Frags +
MongYou're basically banned from competitive tf2 if the league admins (5 people) ban you

people who are banned can still play.
They can just dmix w their friends and any discords that dont mirror league bans.
You can even make a team that only scrims and never plays offis

I think you value offis as a metric for being competitive too highly.
Basically everyone plays way more mixes/pugs/scrims than offis.
They only lost access to 1 thing

[quote=Mong]You're basically banned from competitive tf2 if the league admins (5 people) ban you[/quote]
people who are banned can still play.
They can just dmix w their friends and any discords that dont mirror league bans.
You can even make a team that only scrims and never plays offis

I think you value offis as a metric for being competitive too highly.
Basically everyone plays way more mixes/pugs/scrims than offis.
They only lost access to 1 thing
32
#32
25 Frags +

Mong really works hard to earn his alias

Mong really works hard to earn his alias
33
#33
-20 Frags +

Etf2l not sharing any evidence on the matter is equivalent to not having evidence at all imo. When its some1 as hated by the admins as jeven it makes it harder to believe this is legit.

I disagree with the argument of "keeping evidence found confidential makes it harder for cheaters to know how they can be caught". It's such an old arguement, especially when cheats are so advanced these days that it makes catching cheaters almost impossible. Im sure there are lots of pple cheating in etf2l currently and none of us have any idea.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/646/436/b40.jpg

Etf2l not sharing any evidence on the matter is equivalent to not having evidence at all imo. When its some1 as hated by the admins as jeven it makes it harder to believe this is legit.

I disagree with the argument of "keeping evidence found confidential makes it harder for cheaters to know how they can be caught". It's such an old arguement, especially when cheats are so advanced these days that it makes catching cheaters almost impossible. Im sure there are lots of pple cheating in etf2l currently and none of us have any idea.
[img]https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/646/436/b40.jpg[/img]
34
#34
0 Frags +
Tobpeople who are banned can still play.
They can just dmix w their friends and any discords that dont mirror league bans.
You can even make a team that only scrims and never plays offis

I think you value offis as a metric for being competitive too highly.
Basically everyone plays way more mixes/pugs/scrims than offis.
They only lost access to 1 thing

Sure, but offis are something else entirely. You can't get that level of competitiveness and being part of the community anywhere else. Comp tf2 is structured around the league and offis, not dmixes. It's how people become friends, why they scrim, etc. Maybe it's because I have a hl background where we don't have dmixes but nothing comes close to offis or scrims preparing for offis for me. Jeven could have a scrim only team play very seriously with him and still experience games like before, but that won't happen. The point of my post is that when you ban someone as the only real league on the continent, you deprive them of something very meaningful that they basically cannot get anywhere else, so perma bans should be avoided.

wheatchampionMong really works hard to earn his alias

I agree.

[quote=Tob]
people who are banned can still play.
They can just dmix w their friends and any discords that dont mirror league bans.
You can even make a team that only scrims and never plays offis

I think you value offis as a metric for being competitive too highly.
Basically everyone plays way more mixes/pugs/scrims than offis.
They only lost access to 1 thing[/quote]

Sure, but offis are something else entirely. You can't get that level of competitiveness and being part of the community anywhere else. Comp tf2 is structured around the league and offis, not dmixes. It's how people become friends, why they scrim, etc. Maybe it's because I have a hl background where we don't have dmixes but nothing comes close to offis or scrims preparing for offis for me. Jeven could have a scrim only team play very seriously with him and still experience games like before, but that won't happen. The point of my post is that when you ban someone as the only real league on the continent, you deprive them of something very meaningful that they basically cannot get anywhere else, so perma bans should be avoided.


[quote=wheatchampion]Mong really works hard to earn his alias[/quote]
I agree.
35
#35
3 Frags +

I agree with Flick and I wanna know why Baud was banned also. This one is just stranger than Baud cause I feel like Jeven progressed legitimately, had no reason to hack and it didn’t ever feel like he was cheating and so it would be nice to have an understanding of where it was and what he was doing, if anything

I agree with Flick and I wanna know why Baud was banned also. This one is just stranger than Baud cause I feel like Jeven progressed legitimately, had no reason to hack and it didn’t ever feel like he was cheating and so it would be nice to have an understanding of where it was and what he was doing, if anything
36
#36
23 Frags +

I'm curious to what kind of cheat led to the ban exactly and wish ETF2L would give some evidence in this case. I wouldn't go as far as flick and imply that the admins banned him because of a grudge or something along those lines but from what I've gathered the past seasons it seems extremely unlikely that Jeven would risk a permanent ban by cheating. That guy put in an ungodly amount of time into demo reviews and theorycrafting for his team which would be kinda redundant if he was supposedly cheating all this time. Gameplay wise I have never felt like he did something that felt off unlike some other people currently active.

I'm curious to what kind of cheat led to the ban exactly and wish ETF2L would give some evidence in this case. I wouldn't go as far as flick and imply that the admins banned him because of a grudge or something along those lines but from what I've gathered the past seasons it seems extremely unlikely that Jeven would risk a permanent ban by cheating. That guy put in an ungodly amount of time into demo reviews and theorycrafting for his team which would be kinda redundant if he was supposedly cheating all this time. Gameplay wise I have never felt like he did something that felt off unlike some other people currently active.
37
#37
44 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/wpAhG8S.png

[img]https://i.imgur.com/wpAhG8S.png[/img]
38
#38
19 Frags +

azn is laughing his nuts off somewhere in france

also this is only speculation but based on all my interactions with jeven i simply cannot imagine him cheating in offis. just too driven and serious about competition to be an actual cheater. could very well have done the same thing out of frustration as i did and just fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something but as i see it, thats extremely unlikely.

consider this: i cheated in rahmixes on and off for over a year and NO ONE ever suspected it even when i started straight up 2shotting people like blanc or lardox for fun. i cheated for over a year and would still not be banned if i didnt tell someone who didnt find it funny. im 100% confident that i would not be banned if i didnt literally supply the wrong person with demos worth of evidence. having done it and knowing how to hide it, im also pretty confident theres more cheaters than just azn in high level play right now and the anti cheat team is the most incompetent its ever been. nothing short of an actual admission and explanation of how exactly you cheated along with demos will get you banned in this league. knowing jeven i find it really unlikely that he would have been extremely blatant about it to the point of a quick ban and as gaz said, nothing about his gameplay that ive seen ever suggested to me that hes using anything. something about this ban just feels off.

azn is laughing his nuts off somewhere in france

also this is only speculation but based on all my interactions with jeven i simply cannot imagine him cheating in offis. just too driven and serious about competition to be an actual cheater. could very well have done the same thing out of frustration as i did and just fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something but as i see it, thats extremely unlikely.

consider this: i cheated in rahmixes on and off for over a year and NO ONE ever suspected it even when i started straight up 2shotting people like blanc or lardox for fun. i cheated for over a year and would still not be banned if i didnt tell someone who didnt find it funny. im 100% confident that i would not be banned if i didnt literally supply the wrong person with demos worth of evidence. having done it and knowing how to hide it, im also pretty confident theres more cheaters than just azn in high level play right now and the anti cheat team is the most incompetent its ever been. nothing short of an actual admission and explanation of how exactly you cheated along with demos will get you banned in this league. knowing jeven i find it really unlikely that he would have been extremely blatant about it to the point of a quick ban and as gaz said, nothing about his gameplay that ive seen ever suggested to me that hes using anything. something about this ban just feels off.
39
#39
-8 Frags +

flick how u gonna cry about jeven getting banned for cheating if u think everyone is cheating and beg admins to ban dudes who u think r cheating. own up.

flick how u gonna cry about jeven getting banned for cheating if u think everyone is cheating and beg admins to ban dudes who u think r cheating. own up.
40
#40
21 Frags +
Mongwaaaah cheaters cant play offis

thats the point. dont cheat then?

[quote=Mong]waaaah cheaters cant play offis[/quote]
thats the point. dont cheat then?
41
#41
-12 Frags +
BumFreezeMongwaaaah cheaters cant play offisthats the point. dont cheat then?

me: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit

[quote=BumFreeze][quote=Mong]waaaah cheaters cant play offis[/quote]
thats the point. dont cheat then?[/quote]
me: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit
42
#42
12 Frags +
torritazn is laughing his nuts off somewhere in france

also this is only speculation but based on all my interactions with jeven i simply cannot imagine him cheating in offis. just too driven and serious about competition to be an actual cheater. could very well have done the same thing out of frustration as i did and just fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something but as i see it, thats extremely unlikely.

consider this: i cheated in rahmixes on and off for over a year and NO ONE ever suspected it even when i started straight up 2shotting people like blanc or lardox for fun. i cheated for over a year and would still not be banned if i didnt tell someone who didnt find it funny. im 100% confident that i would not be banned if i didnt literally supply the wrong person with demos worth of evidence. having done it and knowing how to hide it, im also pretty confident theres more cheaters than just azn in high level play right now and the anti cheat team is the most incompetent its ever been. nothing short of an actual admission and explanation of how exactly you cheated along with demos will get you banned in this league. knowing jeven i find it really unlikely that he would have been extremely blatant about it to the point of a quick ban and as gaz said, nothing about his gameplay that ive seen ever suggested to me that hes using anything. something about this ban just feels off.

Why don't you apply yourself and offer your expertise help to the AC team to bust azn? At least you could redeem yourself a bit that way and prove your argument right.

[quote=torrit]azn is laughing his nuts off somewhere in france

also this is only speculation but based on all my interactions with jeven i simply cannot imagine him cheating in offis. just too driven and serious about competition to be an actual cheater. could very well have done the same thing out of frustration as i did and just fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something but as i see it, thats extremely unlikely.

consider this: i cheated in rahmixes on and off for over a year and NO ONE ever suspected it even when i started straight up 2shotting people like blanc or lardox for fun. i cheated for over a year and would still not be banned if i didnt tell someone who didnt find it funny. im 100% confident that i would not be banned if i didnt literally supply the wrong person with demos worth of evidence. having done it and knowing how to hide it, im also pretty confident theres more cheaters than just azn in high level play right now and the anti cheat team is the most incompetent its ever been. nothing short of an actual admission and explanation of how exactly you cheated along with demos will get you banned in this league. knowing jeven i find it really unlikely that he would have been extremely blatant about it to the point of a quick ban and as gaz said, nothing about his gameplay that ive seen ever suggested to me that hes using anything. something about this ban just feels off.[/quote]
Why don't you apply yourself and offer your expertise help to the AC team to bust azn? At least you could redeem yourself a bit that way and prove your argument right.
43
#43
12 Frags +
Mongme: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit

people are telling you it's a dog shit compromise in which legitimate players lose for no reason (it is)

[quote=Mong]
me: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit[/quote]
people are telling you it's a dog shit compromise in which legitimate players lose for no reason (it is)
44
#44
13 Frags +

Playing on a team with the guy and being close to him for like a year at the time I don't personally think its likely he'd cheat at all, I know the argument can be made that having a "drive" to compete and be your best doesn't necessarily invalidate the possibility that he would cheat (in some cases it even contributes) but knowing the time he put into watching demos, mentoring other players, playing 6v6 as a whole and just the videogame in general its almost nonsensical for him to cheat imo. The game is a like a sport to the guy. Sure you could argue that his timing in game is impeccable, his reads on players are good but doesn't this apply to a majority of the top soldiers? How that contributes to the idea he is cheating makes no sense to me.

Previous mentions in the thread include the general dislike admins have for him, which can't be denied considering despite admins claiming to be impartial bans in the past and present have definitely been questionable? Baud was brought up in the thread already and noticeably two of the New anticheat admins (at the time of his ban) were members of the French community who were publicly accusatory of baud beforehand and openly disliked him. Baud was banned after their introduction to the team.

Also the lack of transparency to "prevent people from learning from other cheaters mistakes" is such an incomprehensibly dumb concept. It's an aspect I completely disagree with because at most all we need to know is what type of cheat the player was banned for (The league literally used to do this) instead of just "Cheating". On top of this doesn't the anticheat team claim to have some magic secret tools that help them find cheaters? If that's the case why would it matter if they try to conceal it more, you'll still be able to tell they're cheating? I wouldn't know because we have no knowledge of what these tools are or how they work, what they do etc.

Anyway, to finish up my little ramble as far as I'm aware he's banned for a vac on an alt account and getting vacced on an alt =/= cheated in league matches and scrims or whatever. On the flipside however if he was cheating this should definitely be an indicator that it is more likely than not that there are more cheaters playing this videogame at a high level/climbing divs and going almost unnoticed. Definitely an uh oh either way around.

Playing on a team with the guy and being close to him for like a year at the time I don't personally think its likely he'd cheat at all, I know the argument can be made that having a "drive" to compete and be your best doesn't necessarily invalidate the possibility that he would cheat (in some cases it even contributes) but knowing the time he put into watching demos, mentoring other players, playing 6v6 as a whole and just the videogame in general its almost nonsensical for him to cheat imo. The game is a like a sport to the guy. Sure you could argue that his timing in game is impeccable, his reads on players are good but doesn't this apply to a majority of the top soldiers? How that contributes to the idea he is cheating makes no sense to me.

Previous mentions in the thread include the general dislike admins have for him, which can't be denied considering despite admins claiming to be impartial bans in the past and present have definitely been questionable? Baud was brought up in the thread already and noticeably two of the New anticheat admins (at the time of his ban) were members of the French community who were publicly accusatory of baud beforehand and openly disliked him. Baud was banned after their introduction to the team.

Also the lack of transparency to "prevent people from learning from other cheaters mistakes" is such an incomprehensibly dumb concept. It's an aspect I completely disagree with because at most all we need to know is what type of cheat the player was banned for (The league literally used to do this) instead of just "Cheating". On top of this doesn't the anticheat team claim to have some magic secret tools that help them find cheaters? If that's the case why would it matter if they try to conceal it more, you'll still be able to tell they're cheating? I wouldn't know because we have no knowledge of what these tools are or how they work, what they do etc.

Anyway, to finish up my little ramble as far as I'm aware he's banned for a vac on an alt account and getting vacced on an alt =/= cheated in league matches and scrims or whatever. On the flipside however if he was cheating this should definitely be an indicator that it is more likely than not that there are more cheaters playing this videogame at a high level/climbing divs and going almost unnoticed. Definitely an uh oh either way around.
45
#45
-9 Frags +
twiikuuMongme: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit
people are telling you it's a dog shit compromise in which legitimate players lose for no reason (it is)

Nobody said this. What do legitimate players lose?

[quote=twiikuu][quote=Mong]
me: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit[/quote]
people are telling you it's a dog shit compromise in which legitimate players lose for no reason (it is)[/quote]

Nobody said this. What do legitimate players lose?
46
#46
18 Frags +
MongtwiikuuMongme: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit
people are telling you it's a dog shit compromise in which legitimate players lose for no reason (it is)

Nobody said this. What do legitimate players lose?

have you ever played against azn

[quote=Mong][quote=twiikuu][quote=Mong]
me: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
you: waaaah cheaters cant play offis

Bravo reddit[/quote]
people are telling you it's a dog shit compromise in which legitimate players lose for no reason (it is)[/quote]

Nobody said this. What do legitimate players lose?[/quote]
have you ever played against azn
47
#47
refresh.tf
15 Frags +
torritalso this is only speculation but based on all my interactions with jeven i simply cannot imagine him cheating in offis. just too driven and serious about competition to be an actual cheater. could very well have done the same thing out of frustration as i did and just fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something but as i see it, thats extremely unlikely.

I thought it didn't need to be said, but if somebody only cheated to "fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something" that would also be considered cheating.

flickEtf2l not sharing any evidence on the matter is equivalent to not having evidence at all imo. When its some1 as hated by the admins as jeven it makes it harder to believe this is legit.

This claim is ridiculous, as the AC team has built up credibility for their past work, while someone previously caught cheating has considerably less of it. Do you believe all current admins who have reviewed the situation just decided to go with it because they are that spiteful and biased? Truth is noone is after you, and in the scenario that Jeven isn't cheating this is more likely an honest mistake on their part than an act of hatred.

Then comes the question, why do you think anyone would be "hated by the admins" as you put it? If you truly believe admins are out to get him, are they doing this over a silly reason or has the person in question done something that justifies their "spite"?

GazI'm curious to what kind of cheat led to the ban exactly and wish ETF2L would give some evidence in this case. I wouldn't go as far as flick and imply that the admins banned him because of a grudge or something along those lines but from what I've gathered the past seasons it seems extremely unlikely that Jeven would risk a permanent ban by cheating. That guy put in an ungodly amount of time into demo reviews and theorycrafting for his team which would be kinda redundant if he was supposedly cheating all this time. Gameplay wise I have never felt like he did something that felt off unlike some other people currently active

Feel like this thread is devolving into using the same arguments that have been used time and time again to defend cheaters (eg. the dafuqwizat ban). "Release evidence, explain the proof you have." I would reckon you knew why the evidence isn't released. To summarize why, it's because knowing the methods of detection used by the AC team will assist future cheaters in avoiding or circumventing detection. And why, besides your personal bias, would you believe that it's unlikely a previously caught cheater is a repeat offender? Your argument about dedication may make it appear less likely that cheats have been involved, but even in cases such as this people have cheated before. Not only in tf2, but in other esports, sports and competition where people train extremely hard and are very determined (including non-professional players too). There can be many non-monetary reasons why people cheat in things they care about.

knPrevious mentions in the thread include the general dislike admins have for him, which can't be denied considering despite admins claiming to be impartial bans in the past and present have definitely been questionable? Baud was brought up in the thread already and noticeably two of the New anticheat admins (at the time of his ban) were members of the French community who were publicly accusatory of baud beforehand and openly disliked him. Baud was banned after their introduction to the team.

The fact that you have to go back to a controversial ban from December 2014 [that was never even proven to be incorrect either] should speak for itself. Even in other old controversial cases like the NiCo script ban (which was also less severe than cheating), it was overturned after admins re-evaluated it with new information.

I also don't think some people should go around and accuse others of personal bias, especially if they solely enter the conversation on behalf of banned players they themselves are friendly with. That makes it seem like you care more about
players in your proximity rather than the actual rules and guidelines themselves.

knAlso the lack of transparency to "prevent people from learning from other cheaters mistakes" is such an incomprehensibly dumb concept. It's an aspect I completely disagree with because at most all we need to know is what type of cheat the player was banned for (The league literally used to do this) instead of just "Cheating".

Even after getting this personally explained to you more than a year ago you still haven't developed any argument except calling the concept dumb (despite there being analogies in other fields and cheaters and cheat developers that have directly stated such things).

The type of cheat a player is banned for is usually revealed during the next ban post, no? That has never been secret information.

[quote=torrit]also this is only speculation but based on all my interactions with jeven i simply cannot imagine him cheating in offis. just too driven and serious about competition to be an actual cheater. could very well have done the same thing out of frustration as i did and just fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something but as i see it, thats extremely unlikely.[/quote] I thought it didn't need to be said, but if somebody only cheated to "fuck with people he doesnt like in rahmixes or something" that would also be considered cheating.

[quote=flick]Etf2l not sharing any evidence on the matter is equivalent to not having evidence at all imo. When its some1 as hated by the admins as jeven it makes it harder to believe this is legit.[/quote] This claim is ridiculous, as the AC team has built up credibility for their past work, while someone previously caught cheating has considerably less of it. Do you believe all current admins who have reviewed the situation just decided to go with it because they are that spiteful and biased? Truth is noone is after you, and in the scenario that Jeven isn't cheating this is more likely an honest mistake on their part than an act of hatred.

Then comes the question, why do you think anyone would be "hated by the admins" as you put it? If you truly believe admins are out to get him, are they doing this over a silly reason or has the person in question done something that justifies their "spite"?

[quote=Gaz]I'm curious to what kind of cheat led to the ban exactly and wish ETF2L would give some evidence in this case. I wouldn't go as far as flick and imply that the admins banned him because of a grudge or something along those lines but from what I've gathered the past seasons it seems extremely unlikely that Jeven would risk a permanent ban by cheating. That guy put in an ungodly amount of time into demo reviews and theorycrafting for his team which would be kinda redundant if he was supposedly cheating all this time. Gameplay wise I have never felt like he did something that felt off unlike some other people currently active [/quote]

Feel like this thread is devolving into using the same arguments that have been used time and time again to defend cheaters (eg. the dafuqwizat ban). "Release evidence, explain the proof you have." I would reckon you knew why the evidence isn't released. To summarize why, it's because knowing the methods of detection used by the AC team will assist future cheaters in avoiding or circumventing detection. And why, besides your personal bias, would you believe that it's unlikely a previously caught cheater is a repeat offender? Your argument about dedication may make it appear less likely that cheats have been involved, but even in cases such as this people have cheated before. Not only in tf2, but in other esports, sports and competition where people train extremely hard and are very determined (including non-professional players too). There can be many non-monetary reasons why people cheat in things they care about.

[quote=kn]Previous mentions in the thread include the general dislike admins have for him, which can't be denied considering despite admins claiming to be impartial bans in the past and present have definitely been questionable? Baud was brought up in the thread already and noticeably two of the New anticheat admins (at the time of his ban) were members of the French community who were publicly accusatory of baud beforehand and openly disliked him. Baud was banned after their introduction to the team.[/quote] The fact that you have to go back to a controversial ban from December 2014 [that was never even proven to be incorrect either] should speak for itself. Even in other old controversial cases like the NiCo script ban (which was also less severe than cheating), it was overturned after admins re-evaluated it with new information.

I also don't think some people should go around and accuse others of personal bias, especially if they solely enter the conversation on behalf of banned players they themselves are friendly with. That makes it seem like you care more about
players in your proximity rather than the actual rules and guidelines themselves.

[quote=kn]Also the lack of transparency to "prevent people from learning from other cheaters mistakes" is such an incomprehensibly dumb concept. It's an aspect I completely disagree with because at most all we need to know is what type of cheat the player was banned for (The league literally used to do this) instead of just "Cheating". [/quote] Even after getting this personally explained to you more than a year ago you still haven't developed any argument except calling the concept dumb (despite there being analogies in other fields and cheaters and cheat developers that have directly stated such things).

The type of cheat a player is banned for is usually revealed during the next ban post, no? That has never been secret information.
48
#48
17 Frags +
Mong

because u want cheaters to still be able to play vs legit players because "think of the level of competitiveness and the friends theyll make :("
also dumb to think this happens bc etf2l is the only relevant league as if multiple leagues dont mirror cheating bans. ppl know the rules and their consequences before they go out of their way to break them so why do u feel sorry for cheaters having their precious offis taken away?

[quote=Mong][/quote]
because u want cheaters to still be able to play vs legit players because "think of the level of competitiveness and the friends theyll make :("
also dumb to think this happens bc etf2l is the only relevant league as if multiple leagues dont mirror cheating bans. ppl know the rules and their consequences before they go out of their way to break them so why do u feel sorry for cheaters having their precious offis taken away?
49
#49
12 Frags +
Mongme: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
Bravo reddit

It is just a case of does the punishment fit the crime, and when it comes to cheating in an FPS game, a permanent ban is entirely reasonable and arguably two-fold in the way it serves etf2l as a whole:
1. Player X who is a proven cheater has ruined the fun of many other people yet again and so is permanently exiled from the scene
2. Player Y who's been given a second chance to compete in etf2l after an initial 2 year ban is far less likely to be a repeat offender

The role of etf2l is a league where both 6's and HL competitions can take place in an entirely serious and competitive structure. The etf2l admins cannot play fast and loose, allowing repeat offenders to just keep getting 1-2 year bans for cheating just to come back to do it all again; the league will lose all of its serious/competitive credibility. Further, it creates an unmanageable workload for them to constantly keep tabs on people who've had their 1-2 year ban expire, you'd also be likely to see a bigger increase in people willing to cheat in the first place if the consequences aren't terminal.

However, I do believe there should be full transparency in the case of a permanent ban being issued, where the public can know why the person was banned, what type of cheat was used (walling, aimbotting...) etc.

[quote=Mong]
me: careful consideration of the global role of ETF2L and its effects on perma banning people
Bravo reddit[/quote]

It is just a case of does the punishment fit the crime, and when it comes to cheating in an FPS game, a permanent ban is entirely reasonable and arguably two-fold in the way it serves etf2l as a whole:
1. Player X who is a [i]proven[/i] cheater has ruined the fun of many other people [i]yet again[/i] and so is permanently exiled from the scene
2. Player Y who's been given a second chance to compete in etf2l after an initial 2 year ban is far less likely to be a repeat offender

The role of etf2l is a league where both 6's and HL competitions can take place in an entirely serious and competitive structure. The etf2l admins cannot play fast and loose, allowing repeat offenders to just keep getting 1-2 year bans for cheating just to come back to do it all again; the league will lose all of its serious/competitive credibility. Further, it creates an unmanageable workload for them to constantly keep tabs on people who've had their 1-2 year ban expire, you'd also be likely to see a bigger increase in people willing to cheat in the first place if the consequences aren't terminal.

However, I do believe there should be full transparency in the case of a permanent ban being issued, where the public can know why the person was banned, what type of cheat was used (walling, aimbotting...) etc.
50
#50
-10 Frags +
Chris_

I much rather prefer a 1-2 year ban once (or twice) and this is already done. The reason I brought this up is that jeven will not experience this because of a technicality as he had some vac ban already. He was a dedicated player that cannot play again, ever, even if he did indeed cheat.

[quote=Chris_]
[/quote]
I much rather prefer a 1-2 year ban once (or twice) and this is already done. The reason I brought this up is that jeven will not experience this because of a technicality as he had some vac ban already. He was a dedicated player that cannot play again, ever, even if he did indeed cheat.
51
#51
5 Frags +
Collaide Even after getting this personally explained to you more than a year ago you still haven't developed any argument except calling the concept dumb (despite there being analogies in other fields and cheaters and cheat developers that have directly stated such things).

The type of cheat a player is banned for is usually revealed during the next ban post, no? That has never been secret information.

All I see for the ban reason for all of the recent cheating bans is simply "Cheating." I see no indication as to which cheat they were using/caught using. The concept is dumb, how someone is going to hide their cheats from the special tools that detect their cheats without knowledge of said tools or how they work is completely nonsensical? A cheater is still cheating and if said tools detect it, then they are caught.

CollaideThe fact that you have to go back to a previously controversial bans from December 2014 (Nearly 8 years ago) to focus on a ban that was never even proven to be incorrect should speak for itself. Even in other old controversial cases like the NiCo script ban (which was also less severe than cheating), it was overturned after admins re-evaluated it with new information.

I also don't think some people should go around and accuse others of personal bias, especially if they solely enter the conversation on behalf of banned players they themselves are friendly with. That makes it seem like you care more about
players in your proximity rather than the actual rules and guidelines themselves.

I haven't been friendly with jeven in over two years now, we stopped talking ages ago. Sure there's still some bias within my post but my bias holds little to no weight comparable to the admins, who literally control whether or not you play.

Another controversial ban I can bring up more recently is Wizat but you and many other players are 100% sure he cheated and still does. The player that played exactly the same as he always did with his monitor in view within his handcam. A player with a similar mentality and drive to jeven. And don't even begin to claim I'm biased towards wizat as well considering I have literally hardly spoken to the guy.

The same things that occurred during that controversy are happening here. I only brought up the baud case instead because of the link between the admins who joined the AC Team and the player who was banned to point out an aspect of bias. An old example for sure, but there are little cases of false cheating bans with aspects relevant to this discussion to pick out from.

"Never disproven" Baud was banned for using aim assist and aimed exactly the same at LAN. That's enough proof that the ban was false for me!

[quote=Collaide] Even after getting this personally explained to you more than a year ago you still haven't developed any argument except calling the concept dumb (despite there being analogies in other fields and cheaters and cheat developers that have directly stated such things).

The type of cheat a player is banned for is usually revealed during the next ban post, no? That has never been secret information. [/quote]

All I see for the ban reason for all of the recent cheating bans is simply "Cheating." I see no indication as to which cheat they were using/caught using. The concept is dumb, how someone is going to hide their cheats from the special tools that detect their cheats without knowledge of said tools or how they work is completely nonsensical? A cheater is still cheating and if said tools detect it, then they are caught.

[quote=Collaide]The fact that you have to go back to a previously controversial bans from December 2014 (Nearly 8 years ago) to focus on a ban that was never even proven to be incorrect should speak for itself. Even in other old controversial cases like the NiCo script ban (which was also less severe than cheating), it was overturned after admins re-evaluated it with new information.

I also don't think some people should go around and accuse others of personal bias, especially if they solely enter the conversation on behalf of banned players they themselves are friendly with. That makes it seem like you care more about
players in your proximity rather than the actual rules and guidelines themselves.[/quote]

I haven't been friendly with jeven in over two years now, we stopped talking ages ago. Sure there's still some bias within my post but my bias holds little to no weight comparable to the admins, who literally control whether or not you play.

Another controversial ban I can bring up more recently is Wizat but you and many other players are 100% sure he cheated and still does. The player that played exactly the same as he always did with his monitor in view within his handcam. A player with a similar mentality and drive to jeven. And don't even begin to claim I'm biased towards wizat as well considering I have literally hardly spoken to the guy.

The same things that occurred during that controversy are happening here. I only brought up the baud case instead because of the link between the admins who joined the AC Team and the player who was banned to point out an aspect of bias. An old example for sure, but there are little cases of false cheating bans with aspects relevant to this discussion to pick out from.

"Never disproven" Baud was banned for using aim assist and aimed exactly the same at LAN. That's enough proof that the ban was false for me!
52
#52
8 Frags +

I dont think think the ban should be permanent either way since his 1st ban was for a vacced account from 9 years ago. This is way before he actually played the game competitively and before the updated rule of 2 cheater bans and ur out, as opposed to 3. Going by this logic azn should be banned permanently now because of his previous 2 offenses.

I dont think think the ban should be permanent either way since his 1st ban was for a vacced account from 9 years ago. This is way before he actually played the game competitively and before the updated rule of 2 cheater bans and ur out, as opposed to 3. Going by this logic azn should be banned permanently now because of his previous 2 offenses.
53
#53
refresh.tf
2 Frags +
knAll I see for the ban reason for all of the recent cheating bans is simply "Cheating." I see no indication as to which cheat they were using/caught using. The concept is dumb, how someone is going to hide their cheats from the special tools that detect their cheats without knowledge of said tools or how they work is completely nonsensical? A cheater is still cheating and if said tools detect it, then they are caught.

Well, I assumed they still specified what kind of cheat it was. Can't say I agree with that unless there's a solid argument for it.

knI also don't think some people should go around and accuse others of personal bias, especially if they solely enter the conversation on behalf of banned players they themselves are friendly with. That makes it seem like you care more about
players in your proximity rather than the actual rules and guidelines themselves.

I haven't been friendly with jeven in over two years now, we stopped talking ages ago. Sure there's still some bias within my post but my bias holds little to no weight comparable to the admins, who literally control whether or not you play.

Another controversial ban I can bring up more recently is Wizat but you and many other players are 100% sure he cheated and still does. The player that played exactly the same as he always did with his monitor in view within his handcam. A player with a similar mentality and drive to jeven. And don't even begin to claim I'm biased towards wizat as well considering I have literally hardly spoken to the guy.

The same things that occurred during that controversy are happening here. I only brought up the baud case instead because of the link between the admins who joined the AC Team and the player who was banned to point out an aspect of bias. An old example for sure, but there are little cases of false cheating bans with aspects relevant to this discussion to pick out from.

"Never disproven" Baud was banned for using aim assist and aimed exactly the same at LAN. That's enough proof that the ban was false for me!

The question in that ban was not if he cheated, it was if a person previously caught cheating & who was surrounding themselves with several cheaters was cheating again on a more recent occasion. It's always easier to construct a false or deceiving narrative when you reduce things down to the simplest of pieces.

People can cheat on lan. Remember KQLY storing his cheat on his mouse? An aim-assist cheat that wasn't visible on the screen itself! Now if someone wanted to cheat at a small community lan, all they would have to do is bring a tiny USB with the cheat on it, transfer the files over in the matter of seconds, and pull it out. PC's would need to get routinely checked in between matches in order to ensure nobody is cheating. Still, performing at lan does not exclude the possibility of someone cheating online.

[quote=kn]All I see for the ban reason for all of the recent cheating bans is simply "Cheating." I see no indication as to which cheat they were using/caught using. The concept is dumb, how someone is going to hide their cheats from the special tools that detect their cheats without knowledge of said tools or how they work is completely nonsensical? A cheater is still cheating and if said tools detect it, then they are caught. [/quote] Well, I assumed they still specified what kind of cheat it was. Can't say I agree with that unless there's a solid argument for it.

[quote=kn]I also don't think some people should go around and accuse others of personal bias, especially if they solely enter the conversation on behalf of banned players they themselves are friendly with. That makes it seem like you care more about
players in your proximity rather than the actual rules and guidelines themselves.

I haven't been friendly with jeven in over two years now, we stopped talking ages ago. Sure there's still some bias within my post but my bias holds little to no weight comparable to the admins, who literally control whether or not you play.

Another controversial ban I can bring up more recently is Wizat but you and many other players are 100% sure he cheated and still does. The player that played exactly the same as he always did with his monitor in view within his handcam. A player with a similar mentality and drive to jeven. And don't even begin to claim I'm biased towards wizat as well considering I have literally hardly spoken to the guy.

The same things that occurred during that controversy are happening here. I only brought up the baud case instead because of the link between the admins who joined the AC Team and the player who was banned to point out an aspect of bias. An old example for sure, but there are little cases of false cheating bans with aspects relevant to this discussion to pick out from.

"Never disproven" Baud was banned for using aim assist and aimed exactly the same at LAN. That's enough proof that the ban was false for me!
[/quote]
The question in that ban was not if he cheated, it was if a person previously caught cheating & who was surrounding themselves with several cheaters was cheating again on a more recent occasion. It's always easier to construct a false or deceiving narrative when you reduce things down to the simplest of pieces.

People can cheat on lan. Remember KQLY storing his cheat on his mouse? An aim-assist cheat that wasn't visible on the screen itself! Now if someone wanted to cheat at a small community lan, all they would have to do is bring a tiny USB with the cheat on it, transfer the files over in the matter of seconds, and pull it out. PC's would need to get routinely checked in between matches in order to ensure nobody is cheating. Still, performing at lan does not exclude the possibility of someone cheating online.
54
#54
0 Frags +
Collaide People can cheat on lan. Remember KQLY storing his cheat on his mouse? An aim-assist cheat that wasn't visible on the screen itself! Now if someone wanted to cheat at a small community lan, all they would have to do is bring a tiny USB with the cheat on it, transfer the files over in the matter of seconds, and pull it out. PC's would need to get routinely checked in between matches in order to ensure nobody is cheating. Still, this does not exclude the possibility of someone cheating online.

If he is attending a LAN with an ETF2L ban would you not assume that people would have kept a very watchful eye over him? I doubt he would've been able to smuggle anything in. Not to mention that if he was using lmaobox premium (the most popular cheat at the time) There is no doubt he would've been caught within the same ban wave as azn (still allowed to play despite a league ban + a vac ban on his old account). In any case this thread wasn't meant to be about baud, its about jeven. I agree with the fact this ban seems completely unfair and way out of proportion if its true that the admins have 0 proof that he cheated within league or scrim matches!! A permanent ban should be saved for actual cheaters with undeniable proof of their guilt, such as public enemy #1 azn.

[quote=Collaide] People can cheat on lan. Remember KQLY storing his cheat on his mouse? An aim-assist cheat that wasn't visible on the screen itself! Now if someone wanted to cheat at a small community lan, all they would have to do is bring a tiny USB with the cheat on it, transfer the files over in the matter of seconds, and pull it out. PC's would need to get routinely checked in between matches in order to ensure nobody is cheating. Still, this does not exclude the possibility of someone cheating online. [/quote]

If he is attending a LAN with an ETF2L ban would you not assume that people would have kept a very watchful eye over him? I doubt he would've been able to smuggle anything in. Not to mention that if he was using lmaobox premium (the most popular cheat at the time) There is no doubt he would've been caught within the same ban wave as azn (still allowed to play despite a league ban + a vac ban on his old account). In any case this thread wasn't meant to be about baud, its about jeven. I agree with the fact this ban seems completely unfair and way out of proportion if its true that the admins have 0 proof that he cheated within league or scrim matches!! A permanent ban should be saved for actual cheaters with undeniable proof of their guilt, such as public enemy #1 azn.
55
#55
1 Frags +

Keep requesting those demos guys! From what ive heard they are barely looked at unless u send ticks along with it, which no1 does!

Keep requesting those demos guys! From what ive heard they are barely looked at unless u send ticks along with it, which no1 does!
56
#56
15 Frags +
CollaideI would reckon you knew why the evidence isn't released.

No, actually I don't. It is their league but the burden of proof lies with them, not with the suspect. I get where they are coming from with the whole "Not releasing evidence" stuff, unfortunately this stance is outdated. People who are able to write their own cheats have been able to create undetectable hacks for half a decade already and those who can not do that definitely won't be able to learn and improve from how they got caught. If you are paying top dollar for exclusive third party software you will only ever get found out if you make a human error.

Collaide"Release evidence, explain the proof you have."

Respectfully, are you serious? In what world is this an argument to defend cheaters with? What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? It is completely normal to ask for evidence for a matter such as this. I don't wanna devalue the AC teams work but if you are not asking for evidence and you are just accepting the ban like this you are putting more value in the AC teams authority than in actual proof.

[quote=Collaide]
I would reckon you knew why the evidence isn't released.
[/quote]

No, actually I don't. It is their league but the burden of proof lies with them, not with the suspect. I get where they are coming from with the whole "Not releasing evidence" stuff, unfortunately this stance is outdated. People who are able to write their own cheats have been able to create undetectable hacks for half a decade already and those who can not do that definitely won't be able to learn and improve from how they got caught. If you are paying top dollar for exclusive third party software you will only ever get found out if you make a human error.

[quote=Collaide]"Release evidence, explain the proof you have."[/quote]
Respectfully, are you serious? In what world is this an argument to defend cheaters with? What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? It is completely normal to ask for evidence for a matter such as this. I don't wanna devalue the AC teams work but if you are not asking for evidence and you are just accepting the ban like this you are putting more value in the AC teams authority than in actual proof.
57
#57
refresh.tf
-1 Frags +
knIf he is attending a LAN with an ETF2L ban would you not assume that people would have kept a very watchful eye over him? I doubt he would've been able to smuggle anything in. Not to mention that if he was using lmaobox premium (the most popular cheat at the time) There is no doubt he would've been caught within the same ban wave as azn (still allowed to play despite a league ban + a vac ban on his old account). In any case this thread wasn't meant to be about baud, its about jeven. I agree with the fact this ban seems completely unfair and way out of proportion if its true that the admins have 0 proof that he cheated within league or scrim matches!! A permanent ban should be saved for actual cheaters with undeniable proof of their guilt, such as public enemy #1 azn.

I would also assume a player who got caught cheating isn't gonna bring their cheats to the upcoming LAN. Do you disagree?

I am not opposed to retroactively banning other players who have cheated multiple times (over some sort of time period) either! I always thought it was silly ppl could get multiple VAC's, and keep playing 1 year later. Retroactively banning people may seem unfair, but it can definately be justified. If ppl have evidence they should report to AC admins, I know of several people who suspected others but never officially reported them.

GazRespectfully, are you serious? In what world is this an argument to defend cheaters with? What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? It is completely normal to ask for evidence for a matter such as this. I don't wanna devalue the AC teams work but if you are not asking for evidence and you are just accepting the ban like this you are putting more value in the AC teams authority than in actual proof.

With all due respect, it's a gaming league not the court system of a nation. The consequences of a league ban do not weigh as heavy as those of a real life court system and it's unreasonable to ask for the same rigorous standards.

[quote=kn]If he is attending a LAN with an ETF2L ban would you not assume that people would have kept a very watchful eye over him? I doubt he would've been able to smuggle anything in. Not to mention that if he was using lmaobox premium (the most popular cheat at the time) There is no doubt he would've been caught within the same ban wave as azn (still allowed to play despite a league ban + a vac ban on his old account). In any case this thread wasn't meant to be about baud, its about jeven. I agree with the fact this ban seems completely unfair and way out of proportion if its true that the admins have 0 proof that he cheated within league or scrim matches!! A permanent ban should be saved for actual cheaters with undeniable proof of their guilt, such as public enemy #1 azn.[/quote]
I would also assume a player who got caught cheating isn't gonna bring their cheats to the upcoming LAN. Do you disagree?

I am not opposed to retroactively banning other players who have cheated multiple times (over some sort of time period) either! I always thought it was silly ppl could get multiple VAC's, and keep playing 1 year later. Retroactively banning people may seem unfair, but it can definately be justified. If ppl have evidence they should report to AC admins, I know of several people who suspected others but never officially reported them.

[quote=Gaz]Respectfully, are you serious? In what world is this an argument to defend cheaters with? What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? It is completely normal to ask for evidence for a matter such as this. I don't wanna devalue the AC teams work but if you are not asking for evidence and you are just accepting the ban like this you are putting more value in the AC teams authority than in actual proof.[/quote]
With all due respect, it's a gaming league not the court system of a nation. The consequences of a league ban do not weigh as heavy as those of a real life court system and it's unreasonable to ask for the same rigorous standards.
58
#58
1 Frags +
Gaz What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? It is completely normal to ask for evidence for a matter such as this

Is something I'm in agreement with. I do believe that to a certain extent we should be told what they were caught for and which games it was in. Not so much how they were caught (we don't need to know about the tools and whatnot) but just knowing what they were caught with and where/when is enough to put doubters (such as myself) to rest and to prove that the ban is justified and the player is actually a cheater. I think it should be expected for those labelled as guilty to be proven as such. Think dat makes sense anyway.

[quote=Gaz] What happened to "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? It is completely normal to ask for evidence for a matter such as this[/quote]

Is something I'm in agreement with. I do believe that to a certain extent we should be told what they were caught for and which games it was in. Not so much how they were caught (we don't need to know about the tools and whatnot) but just knowing what they were caught with and where/when is enough to put doubters (such as myself) to rest and to prove that the ban is justified and the player is actually a cheater. I think it should be expected for those labelled as guilty to be proven as such. Think dat makes sense anyway.
59
#59
11 Frags +
CollaideWith all due respect, it's a gaming league not the court system of a nation. The consequences of a league ban do not weigh as heavy as those of a real life court system and it's unreasonable to ask for the same rigorous standards.

Expecting evidence is rigorous?
I'm sorry but you are gonna be the first person I'm gonna call stupid in a discussion

[quote=Collaide]
With all due respect, it's a gaming league not the court system of a nation. The consequences of a league ban do not weigh as heavy as those of a real life court system and it's unreasonable to ask for the same rigorous standards.[/quote]

Expecting evidence is rigorous?
I'm sorry but you are gonna be the first person I'm gonna call stupid in a discussion
60
#60
5 Frags +

take a look yourselves at the team discord at how much effort he put in
https://discord.gg/2hFdfKPUsh

take a look yourselves at the team discord at how much effort he put in
https://discord.gg/2hFdfKPUsh
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