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CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!!
1
#1
0 Frags +

I would have hoped after Virgil called you out on your transparency that you might change but haha here we are.

You people are so unresponsive that you have to are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable issues addressed like aim getting banned for streaming, Ford banned for "throwing", why Mopsy got a player misconduct warning, and countless other bans and warnings that had simply no justification or concrete explanations from admins. All these threads would have been unnecessary if you had just talked to them like normal human beings instead of chimping out and ignoring them.

This shit is so goddamn repetitive that you can easily predict a cycle like this each time:

You make a questionable decision. You feel an air of superiority from your choices (as apparent from your lack of communication). Person at fault or his friend is tired of passive admins and creates a thread. Community calls you out for stupid judgements, you hastily try to brush it under the carpet by giving us what we want and then go back to pretending this issue never happened.

PLEASE fix your lousy communication between admins and the player base, it shouldn't be the norm to have to make a TFTV thread every time you need simple questions answered. Also by communication/transparency, I don't just mean admins not justifying bans, you guys need to communicate and work with the player base to achieve things together like finally finishing the fucking RGL pug system, working out plugin problems, map bug issues etc. instead of trying to do it all by yourselves/ nothing at all because there are loads of talent in the community who are experienced with that stuff.

P.S The aforementioned cycle gives people an excuse to make calling out RGL threads that suck i.e they're clearly in the wrong and I, including many others, don't want to see that shit anymore even if it is entertaining sometimes. Entertainment alone can't justify your continuation of massive fuck ups.

I would have hoped after [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/54857/problem-with-rgl-policy]Virgil[/url] called you out on your transparency that you might change but haha here we are.

You people are so unresponsive that you [s]have to[/s] are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable issues addressed like [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58722/seriously]aim[/url] getting banned for streaming, [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/59766/monthly-rgl-thread-july-2021]Ford[/url] banned for "throwing", why [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/60393/thank-you-letter-to-rgl/?page=6#159]Mopsy[/url] got a player misconduct warning, and countless other bans and warnings that had simply no justification or concrete explanations from admins. All these threads would have been unnecessary if you had just talked to them like normal human beings instead of chimping out and ignoring them.

This shit is so goddamn repetitive that you can easily predict a cycle like this each time:

You make a questionable decision. You feel an air of superiority from your choices (as apparent from your lack of communication). Person at fault or his friend is tired of passive admins and creates a thread. Community calls you out for stupid judgements, you hastily try to brush it under the carpet by giving us what we want and then go back to pretending this issue never happened.

PLEASE fix your lousy communication between admins and the player base, it shouldn't be the norm to have to make a TFTV thread every time you need simple questions answered. Also by communication/transparency, I don't just mean admins not justifying bans, you guys need to communicate and work with the player base to achieve things together like finally finishing the fucking RGL pug system, working out [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/60092/rgl-s7-advanced-happenings-discussion/?page=2#33]plugin problems[/url], map bug issues etc. instead of trying to do it all by yourselves/ nothing at all because there are loads of talent in the community who are experienced with that stuff.

P.S The aforementioned cycle gives people an excuse to make calling out RGL threads that suck i.e they're clearly in the wrong and I, including many others, don't want to see that shit anymore even if it is entertaining sometimes. Entertainment alone can't justify your continuation of massive fuck ups.
2
#2
39 Frags +

this is like that one rule in hockey where you have to tweet @NHL each time u get banned from hockey

this is like that one rule in hockey where you have to tweet @NHL each time u get banned from hockey
3
#3
13 Frags +

yeah this guy has never hit a 3 pointer in hockey

yeah this guy has never hit a 3 pointer in hockey
4
#4
9 Frags +

am i missing something or is there not even ban juice or anything new at all in this post? after already having like 3 weak rgl threads this month?

am i missing something or is there not even ban juice or anything new at all in this post? after already having like 3 weak rgl threads this month?
5
#5
11 Frags +

Hi, simple passerby looking to understand the situation better. Been scrolling through past threads and have noticed the “cycle” you describe - RGL and subsequent staff seem to visit/post on these forums only when absolutely necessary - was curious if you could elaborate as to why you think that might be the case.

You say that “You feel an air of superiority from your choices”, I’m trying to understand why RGL would exclude their community (or at least a portion of it) when it comes to making decisions, it seems unusual to me that a community organization would leave it’s own community so in the dark.

I’m sure the classic reply would be something like “welcome to RGL”, but I wonder if in many cases RGL staff is afraid of the response they’ll get regardless of their explanation, as I don’t think many people will disagree that TFTV is often (sometimes justifiably) quick to grab the pitchforks.

I have two main other thoughts,
For starters while I’m sure it’s only a drop in the bucket compared to other situations, what were the lessons to be learned from those cases you listed?
* In aim’s case, it seems like the rules were both vague (players thought it wouldn’t apply to aim since he wasn’t an organization) and undesirable (Preventing players with unique insights from casting decreases overall quality)
* In ford’s case, it sounds like a rushed decision that either means the council system for determining justification of bans is ineffective at preventing mistakes or that there is too much room for admin interpretation toward this rule.
* In mopsy’s case it sounds like there has been an oversight in the rules that needs and deserves immediate correction.

The other thought I had is that RGL being a community organization, why doesn’t TFTV promote volunteers from within? Has there been precedent for a TFTV regular becoming an RGL admin and then turning radio silent, has there been logic/explain action for this shift in attitude? I’m also curious if RGL staff has ever taken the initiative to reach out to TFTV, asking their opinion and initiating discussion on rules or practices. For some of the complaints about RGL being out of touch with thee community has anyone tried to step up and be that bridge / better connection in the past?

Genuinely asking hoping for genuine responses, I can see a lot of frustration, and for the sake for compTF2 - I hope there still is the possibility for reconciliation.

Hi, simple passerby looking to understand the situation better. Been scrolling through past threads and have noticed the “cycle” you describe - RGL and subsequent staff seem to visit/post on these forums only when absolutely necessary - was curious if you could elaborate as to why you think that might be the case.

You say that “You feel an air of superiority from your choices”, I’m trying to understand why RGL would exclude their community (or at least a portion of it) when it comes to making decisions, it seems unusual to me that a community organization would leave it’s own community so in the dark.

I’m sure the classic reply would be something like “welcome to RGL”, but I wonder if in many cases RGL staff is afraid of the response they’ll get regardless of their explanation, as I don’t think many people will disagree that TFTV is often (sometimes justifiably) quick to grab the pitchforks.

I have two main other thoughts,
For starters while I’m sure it’s only a drop in the bucket compared to other situations, what were the lessons to be learned from those cases you listed?
* In aim’s case, it seems like the rules were both vague (players thought it wouldn’t apply to aim since he wasn’t an organization) and undesirable (Preventing players with unique insights from casting decreases overall quality)
* In ford’s case, it sounds like a rushed decision that either means the council system for determining justification of bans is ineffective at preventing mistakes or that there is too much room for admin interpretation toward this rule.
* In mopsy’s case it sounds like there has been an oversight in the rules that needs and deserves immediate correction.

The other thought I had is that RGL being a community organization, why doesn’t TFTV promote volunteers from within? Has there been precedent for a TFTV regular becoming an RGL admin and then turning radio silent, has there been logic/explain action for this shift in attitude? I’m also curious if RGL staff has ever taken the initiative to reach out to TFTV, asking their opinion and initiating discussion on rules or practices. For some of the complaints about RGL being out of touch with thee community has anyone tried to step up and be that bridge / better connection in the past?

Genuinely asking hoping for genuine responses, I can see a lot of frustration, and for the sake for compTF2 - I hope there still is the possibility for reconciliation.
6
#6
59 Frags +

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/240693342248239104/896774584387379240/FBV7AFCWUAENpQe2.jpeg

[img]https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/240693342248239104/896774584387379240/FBV7AFCWUAENpQe2.jpeg[/img]
7
#7
-21 Frags +
doikuI would have hoped after Virgil called you out on your transparency that you might change but haha here we are.

and virgil is an admin now, die the hero or live to see yourself become the villain lmao

[quote=doiku]I would have hoped after [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/54857/problem-with-rgl-policy]Virgil[/url] called you out on your transparency that you might change but haha here we are.
[/quote]
and virgil is an admin now, die the hero or live to see yourself become the villain lmao
8
#8
2 Frags +
brodyam i missing something or is there not even ban juice or anything new at all in this post? after already having like 3 weak rgl threads this month?

Would you not consider Mopsy's case anything new? Besides this post was more meant to shed light on the cycle (which also caused 3 weak rgl threads) and how killing such a cycle with good communication would solve most of RGL and its playerbase's problems. The comp community is already tiny af, there is simply no need for elitist league runners in our scene.

[quote=brody]am i missing something or is there not even ban juice or anything new at all in this post? after already having like 3 weak rgl threads this month?[/quote]
Would you not consider Mopsy's case anything new? Besides this post was more meant to shed light on the cycle (which also caused 3 weak rgl threads) and how killing such a cycle with good communication would solve most of RGL and its playerbase's problems. The comp community is already tiny af, there is simply no need for elitist league runners in our scene.
9
#9
tf2pickup.org
6 Frags +

don't play in rgl challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

don't play in rgl challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
10
#10
37 Frags +
jetzdoikuI would have hoped after Virgil called you out on your transparency that you might change but haha here we are.and virgil is an admin now, die the hero or live to see yourself become the villain lmao

just trying to fix the problems i mentioned in the original post and mentioned in this one, change is hard cause you have to work for it but i'm doing my best

[quote=jetz][quote=doiku]I would have hoped after [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/54857/problem-with-rgl-policy]Virgil[/url] called you out on your transparency that you might change but haha here we are.
[/quote]
and virgil is an admin now, die the hero or live to see yourself become the villain lmao[/quote]

just trying to fix the problems i mentioned in the original post and mentioned in this one, change is hard cause you have to work for it but i'm doing my best
11
#11
-8 Frags +

you guys have transparency?
https://i.imgur.com/OHXRlL8.png

you guys have transparency?
https://i.imgur.com/OHXRlL8.png
12
#12
-1 Frags +
Virgiljust trying to fix the problems i mentioned in the original post and mentioned in this one, change is hard cause you have to work for it but i'm doing my best

Hey Virgil, first off I wanted to commend you for doing that thing that RGL has been historically (understandably) hesitant to do - post in TFTV. You’ve also managed to do the somewhat rare thing of having an upfragged post as staff - and I think this is representative of something.

I’m speaking out of my area, but to get an upfraged post from essentially saying “we’re working on it” shows this community’s willingness to believe in you, and I understand there are reasons you can’t say too much - but can you expand a bit on what’s going on? What discussions are taking place - what things you’d like opinions on : I assume one of the reasons you wanted to become staff was to be or help build a bridge to this community right? Is there any chance we can see RGL take initiative in asking TFTV for opinions rather than a weak survey or only showing up to put out fires?

[quote=Virgil]
just trying to fix the problems i mentioned in the original post and mentioned in this one, change is hard cause you have to work for it but i'm doing my best[/quote]

Hey Virgil, first off I wanted to commend you for doing that thing that RGL has been historically (understandably) hesitant to do - post in TFTV. You’ve also managed to do the somewhat rare thing of having an upfragged post as staff - and I think this is representative of something.

I’m speaking out of my area, but to get an upfraged post from essentially saying “we’re working on it” shows this community’s willingness to believe in you, and I understand there are reasons you can’t say too much - but can you expand a bit on what’s going on? What discussions are taking place - what things you’d like opinions on : I assume one of the reasons you wanted to become staff was to be or help build a bridge to this community right? Is there any chance we can see RGL take initiative in asking TFTV for opinions rather than a weak survey or only showing up to put out fires?
13
#13
RGL.gg
21 Frags +
why Mopsy got a player misconduct warning, and countless other bans and warnings that had simply no justification or concrete explanations from admins.

In cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.

Things not related to those types of bans, we do share the information. For example, if you say a slur in a match, we will share the log with you and what you said, because it does not reveal the identity of the reporter. Though in the vast majority of bans, it's uncommon for people to reach out to request this information, as they generally already know what they did.

You people are so unresponsive that you have to are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable

Typically, most threads are made while we're in the middle of the conversation with the affected player or prior to the person reaching out to us. In our current ticket system, which is only a year old, almost 3000 tickets have been created and resolved. The vast majority of these tickets are resolved on the same day the ticket is made. We also have systems set up for misconduct reports, ban appeals, probation appeals, probation lifting, etc...

On top of all of this, in the majority of threads we do have a post, including in the aim and ford thread referenced. The issue with responding in public threads, versus in a ticket, is that posting in threads tends to be more thought out and that takes time. Typically someone needs to sit down and dedicate a focused time to write a post to address the points. Sometimes this also requires others to review it, to make sure they're not misrepresenting the league.

We also release monthly articles about rules, bans, and more. These are posted both on our website and on our forums.

Per your example, aim's ban went through in a way it shouldn't have in our league, it didn't have a proper review. It happened six months ago, so my memory might be incorrect, but I cannot find any communication that was directly opened to us in terms of an appeal, prior to the creation of the thread on TFTV. Though it’s possible it was in a DM, not through the appeal process or a ticket. Either way, we went through our process, which is not an instant thing. Discussions had to take place at night when people were home from their job/school, we needed clarification on what happened and then decisions were made and the ban was lifted the same day.

I also did a page-long post in that thread explaining how the situation happened and how we'd avoid it happening again and also things we plan to change. Including doing more warnings and less bans, which we have done. Overall, I do believe that we’ve accomplished the goals I set in that post.

All these threads would have been unnecessary if you had just talked to them like normal human beings instead of chimping out and ignoring them.

If you can provide examples of where players have created tickets in our system and they were ignored, please let me know and I'll look into that, but to my knowledge when players use our communication system they do get replies. Keep in mind though, more complicated issues might take a few hours to days to fully resolve, depending on decisions that need to be made/reviewed. Still, even if it might not be an instant resolution, we would communicate with the player in that ticket, that we're working on it and leave the ticket open.

PLEASE fix your lousy communication between admins and the player base, it shouldn't be the norm to have to make a TFTV thread every time you need simple questions answered.

I don't believe it's at all required for players to make a thread to have a timely response from an admin. We have a clear and easy-to-use ticket system on discord that would result in communication, though the resolution might take a short amount of time to happen.

We’ve also been using this for qualifiers. We’ll add all the captains of the teams to the ticket and use that as a place to discuss scheduling, issues, etc… Another example would be for situations like contested forfeits, or rescheduling of matches, or playoff scheduling issues. Instead of using telephone DM tag, we bring everyone (both teams) into the same ticket, so we have an open forum to discuss and resolve things.

You feel an air of superiority from your choices (as apparent from your lack of communication).

I don't feel superior to others and I don't think anyone on my staff has that mindset. It's a volunteer staff of people who want to dedicate their time to help the TF2 community in some way and if you have examples of a lack of communication through our ticket system, which is our main form of communicating with players who have questions or issues, please let me know (sigafoo#0685).

We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions

Is that good enough? No, we should always strive to do better and we do. Every season we're trying to make changes in our league, in our system, in our processes to make them easier to use/follow and will continue to get better. I think RGL, as it is now, is different and better than it was in 2020, and my goal is that we can say that about the league in 2022. It's virtually impossible to be perfect, but we can aim to get closer to that with every opportunity we have to learn and improve.

[quote] why Mopsy got a player misconduct warning, and countless other bans and warnings that had simply no justification or concrete explanations from admins.[/quote]

In cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.

Things not related to those types of bans, we do share the information. For example, if you say a slur in a match, we will share the log with you and what you said, because it does not reveal the identity of the reporter. Though in the vast majority of bans, it's uncommon for people to reach out to request this information, as they generally already know what they did.

[quote]You people are so unresponsive that you have to are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable[/quote]

Typically, most threads are made while we're in the middle of the conversation with the affected player or prior to the person reaching out to us. In our current ticket system, which is only a year old, almost 3000 tickets have been created and resolved. The vast majority of these tickets are resolved on the same day the ticket is made. We also have systems set up for misconduct reports, ban appeals, probation appeals, probation lifting, etc...

On top of all of this, in the majority of threads we do have a post, including in the [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58722/seriously/?page=2#60]aim[/url] and [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/59766/monthly-rgl-thread-july-2021/?page=4#119]ford[/url] thread referenced. The issue with responding in public threads, versus in a ticket, is that posting in threads tends to be more thought out and that takes time. Typically someone needs to sit down and dedicate a focused time to write a post to address the points. Sometimes this also requires others to review it, to make sure they're not misrepresenting the league.

We also release monthly articles about rules, bans, and more. These are posted both on our website and on [url=https://forums.rgl.gg/category/1/rgl-news-updates]our forums[/url].

Per your example, aim's ban went through in a way it shouldn't have in our league, it didn't have a proper review. It happened six months ago, so my memory might be incorrect, but I cannot find any communication that was directly opened to us in terms of an appeal, prior to the creation of the thread on TFTV. Though it’s possible it was in a DM, not through the appeal process or a ticket. Either way, we went through our process, which is not an instant thing. Discussions had to take place at night when people were home from their job/school, we needed clarification on what happened and then decisions were made and the ban was lifted the same day.

I also did a page-long [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/58722/seriously/?page=2#60]post in that thread[/url] explaining how the situation happened and how we'd avoid it happening again and also things we plan to change. Including doing more warnings and less bans, which we have done. Overall, I do believe that we’ve accomplished the goals I set in that post.

[quote]All these threads would have been unnecessary if you had just talked to them like normal human beings instead of chimping out and ignoring them.[/quote]

If you can provide examples of where players have created tickets in our system and they were ignored, please let me know and I'll look into that, but to my knowledge when players use our communication system they do get replies. Keep in mind though, more complicated issues might take a few hours to days to fully resolve, depending on decisions that need to be made/reviewed. Still, even if it might not be an instant resolution, we would communicate with the player in that ticket, that we're working on it and leave the ticket open.

[quote]PLEASE fix your lousy communication between admins and the player base, it shouldn't be the norm to have to make a TFTV thread every time you need simple questions answered.[/quote]

I don't believe it's at all required for players to make a thread to have a timely response from an admin. We have a clear and easy-to-use ticket system on discord that would result in communication, though the resolution might take a short amount of time to happen.

We’ve also been using this for qualifiers. We’ll add all the captains of the teams to the ticket and use that as a place to discuss scheduling, issues, etc… Another example would be for situations like contested forfeits, or rescheduling of matches, or playoff scheduling issues. Instead of using telephone DM tag, we bring everyone (both teams) into the same ticket, so we have an open forum to discuss and resolve things.

[quote]You feel an air of superiority from your choices (as apparent from your lack of communication).[/quote]

I don't feel superior to others and I don't think anyone on my staff has that mindset. It's a volunteer staff of people who want to dedicate their time to help the TF2 community in some way and if you have examples of a lack of communication through our ticket system, which is our main form of communicating with players who have questions or issues, please let me know (sigafoo#0685).

We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions

Is that good enough? No, we should always strive to do better and we do. Every season we're trying to make changes in our league, in our system, in our processes to make them easier to use/follow and will continue to get better. I think RGL, as it is now, is different and better than it was in 2020, and my goal is that we can say that about the league in 2022. It's virtually impossible to be perfect, but we can aim to get closer to that with every opportunity we have to learn and improve.
14
#14
3 Frags +

Topic: The Mopsy Situation

sigafooIn cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.

CAP_CREATURE has a good comment about this topic: where he says

CAP_CREATURE rgl is attempting to provide as safe a reporting space as possible ... I understand that not telling people what they did doesn't help them improve their behavior, and I'm not agreeing with it, I'm just saying that I understand the goal of rgl when they do that.

What I want to express is that I think it'd be a mistake to sweep this incident under the rug as "resolved" - I'm not speaking in defense of mopsy, but I think looking at the situation as a whole raises interesting points - Does an accused party have a "right" to their accuser - and if not how to handle if an accused party doesn't know their offense and isn't allowed to know (Is this alright?). This is a discussion not best suited here - but in my opinion one started in a thread by RGL (Which brings me onto the next topic)

Topic: RGL Taking Initiative

sigafooTypically, most threads are made while we're in the middle of the conversation with the affected player or prior to the person reaching out to us.doikuYou people are so unresponsive that you have to are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable issues addressed

I think the interesting point here to me is that there doesn't need to be a discussion over the point that - at least officially - RGL only makes an appearance on TFTV when it comes to putting out fires - responding to criticism and situations getting out of hand.

I'm not great with words, so I'll try to rephrase - My question to Virgil and now Sigfoo is: Does RGL has any considerations/plans for initiating conversation with TFTV instead of playing the reactive role with it/the community.
Taking the above example - I imagine it would look something like starting a thread stating exactly as you have the reasons RGL has the ruling the way it does, acknowledging that perhaps its not perfect and asking the community what they suggest.

Take the most recent announcement by RGL regarding Uber Pauses / their abuse. The situation update is great if not a bit slow - the NOTE of what to if the bug occurs is nice and clearly states RGL stances/punishment... but I disagree with the way how the ruling is tied to "using an illegally gained uber" - this is rife for misinterpretation as you're asking for an admin (or council) judgement on a team/player interpretation mid-game. I would write/make a ruling in a way that even if unfair there wouldn't need to be a judgement call of "um.. are we allowed to use this yet?". (I'd go on, but details on how I would handle it don't belong in this thread).

I have to imagine the pause ruling/update was the result of a round of discussions amongst the admins - and I think it is a mistake to not try to include the community - specifically this community - in those discussions. You don't have to survey what the rule should be, I'm not advocating for the community suddenly being free to determine all the rules as they see fit, but perhaps you can gain insights into potential problems with your options or just obtain potential ideas that a small council might have missed as well as keep your community at least a little informed on what you're "considering" or "having a look at". (We often hear about how rules are "revisited" but don't get to see the discussion that happens, the options being weighed - I think RGL should make an attempt to bridge this gap).

Note: Keep in mind the above were just examples toward a point and suggestion - I know that by talking about such specifics I run the risk of derailing this thread into oblivion, so I'd encourage anyone replying to try to focus on the broad picture and not get lost in the details here.

The Survey Results

We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions

As a preface, I have never been a fan of the way RGL handles surveys, I think it's too easy to construe or manipulate information - especially unintentionally.
For starters, as far as I can tell (and maybe I'm just piss poor at searching), I can't find the post-season results for S4, S5, or S6 - if there is a question in every post season survey regarding communication, I'd appreciate if someone could give me a hand finding it or compile the information (I'd love you long time) - I'm interested to see what the survey shows about admin satisfaction with the progressing seasons. If its not public, I'd like to know if there is a reason why - but that's probably - again - a discussion for another thread.

Putting the publicity of said survey/my incompetence aside: The Recent HL survey has a bit about division admins which I think is tangentially relevant: https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1584&r=24
Of the 183 surveyed HL participants who interacted with an admin - ~51% rated their experience as good or better, while ~49% rated their experience as neutral, bad, or horrible. This is probably an unfair organization - and I don't follow the HL scene or think that their performance is indicative or even relevant regarding 6s, but in the same article and the same question regarding admin decisions: "Did you feel that your division admin generally made reasonable decisions" had ~51% responded with "Yes, but not every decision" or "No, many decisions were unreasonable".

Here's hoping I don't get lynched for talking about HL, but I wasn't able to find better data to work with - the main point/takeaway of this section is really that data & surveys should be talking points, but I rarely see conversations around them - a small pattern I've noticed even just talking with RGL admins is that they quote statistics that I'd never seen - or even have no option of seeing. Even if the information can't be publicly released, I'd like to see RGL look at sectors they're bad at then START a conversation about how to improve.

Math: https://i.imgur.com/aKiVZNU.png

Topic: [u]The Mopsy Situation[/u]
[quote=sigafoo]
In cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.
[/quote]
CAP_CREATURE has a good comment about this topic: [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/60393/thank-you-letter-to-rgl/?page=6#166][/url] where he says [quote=CAP_CREATURE] rgl is attempting to provide as safe a reporting space as possible ... I understand that not telling people what they did doesn't help them improve their behavior, and I'm not agreeing with it, I'm just saying that I understand the goal of rgl when they do that.[/quote]
What I want to express is that I think it'd be a mistake to sweep this incident under the rug as "resolved" - I'm not speaking in defense of mopsy, but I think looking at the situation as a whole raises interesting points - Does an accused party have a "right" to their accuser - and if not how to handle if an accused party doesn't know their offense and isn't allowed to know (Is this alright?). This is a discussion not best suited here - but in my opinion one started in a thread by RGL (Which brings me onto the next topic)

Topic: [u]RGL Taking Initiative[/u]
[quote=sigafoo]
Typically, most threads are made while we're in the middle of the conversation with the affected player or prior to the person reaching out to us.
[/quote]
[quote=doiku]You people are so unresponsive that you have to are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable issues addressed[/quote]
I think the interesting point here to me is that there doesn't need to be a discussion over the point that - at least officially - RGL only makes an appearance on TFTV when it comes to putting out fires - responding to criticism and situations getting out of hand.

I'm not great with words, so I'll try to rephrase - My question to Virgil and now Sigfoo is: Does RGL has any considerations/plans for initiating conversation with TFTV instead of playing the reactive role with it/the community.
Taking the above example - I imagine it would look something like starting a thread stating exactly as you have the reasons RGL has the ruling the way it does, acknowledging that perhaps its not perfect and [b]asking the community what they suggest.[/b]

Take the most recent announcement by RGL regarding Uber Pauses / their abuse. The situation update is great if not a bit slow - the NOTE of what to if the bug occurs is nice and clearly states RGL stances/punishment... but I disagree with the way how the ruling is tied to "using an illegally gained uber" - this is rife for misinterpretation as you're asking for an admin (or council) judgement on a team/player interpretation mid-game. I would write/make a ruling in a way that even if unfair there wouldn't need to be a judgement call of "um.. are we allowed to use this yet?". (I'd go on, but details on how I would handle it don't belong in this thread).

I have to imagine the pause ruling/update was the result of a round of discussions amongst the admins - and I think it is a mistake to not try to include the community - specifically this community - in those discussions. You don't have to survey what the rule should be, I'm not advocating for the community suddenly being free to determine all the rules as they see fit, but perhaps you can gain insights into potential problems with your options or just obtain potential ideas that a small council might have missed as well as keep your community at least a little informed on what you're "considering" or "having a look at". (We often hear about how rules are "revisited" but don't get to see the discussion that happens, the options being weighed - I think RGL should make an attempt to bridge this gap).

Note: Keep in mind the above were just examples toward a point and suggestion - I know that by talking about such specifics I run the risk of derailing this thread into oblivion, so I'd encourage anyone replying to try to focus on the broad picture and not get lost in the details here.

[u]The Survey Results[/u]
[quote]
We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions
[/quote]
As a preface, I have never been a fan of the way RGL handles surveys, I think it's too easy to construe or manipulate information - especially unintentionally.
For starters, as far as I can tell (and maybe I'm just piss poor at searching), I can't find the post-season results for S4, S5, or S6 - if there is a question in every post season survey regarding communication, I'd appreciate if someone could give me a hand finding it or compile the information (I'd love you long time) - I'm interested to see what the survey shows about admin satisfaction with the progressing seasons. If its not public, I'd like to know if there is a reason why - but that's probably - again - a discussion for another thread.

Putting the publicity of said survey/my incompetence aside: The Recent HL survey has a bit about division admins which I think is tangentially relevant: https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1584&r=24
Of the 183 surveyed HL participants who interacted with an admin - ~51% rated their experience as good or better, while ~49% rated their experience as neutral, bad, or horrible. This is probably an unfair organization - and I don't follow the HL scene or think that their performance is indicative or even relevant regarding 6s, but in the same article and the same question regarding admin decisions: "Did you feel that your division admin generally made reasonable decisions" had ~51% responded with "Yes, but not every decision" or "No, many decisions were unreasonable".

Here's hoping I don't get lynched for talking about HL, but I wasn't able to find better data to work with - the main point/takeaway of this section is really that data & surveys should be talking points, but I rarely see conversations around them - a small pattern I've noticed even just talking with RGL admins is that they quote statistics that I'd never seen - or even have no option of seeing. Even if the information can't be publicly released, I'd like to see RGL look at sectors they're bad at then START a conversation about how to improve.

Math: https://i.imgur.com/aKiVZNU.png
15
#15
6 Frags +
sigaretardPer your example, aim's ban went through in a way it shouldn't have in our league, it didn't have a proper review. It happened six months ago, so my memory might be incorrect, but I cannot find any communication that was directly opened to us in terms of an appeal, prior to the creation of the thread on TFTV

if there was no thread the ban would have been maintained, you consistently only go back on retarded decisions when theres public backlash which is why people believe these threads have to be made.

i don't feel superior to others

why did you ban someone for sending you a trollface on discord when the only recourse anyone else would have had is "If someone is harassing you, just block them" seems like you feel pretty fucking superior using your ban powers when someone is annoying to you

We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions

rgl surveys are literally a fucking joke, and you take the results of them as gospel.

people are talking about their div admin who decide things like forfeit wins and allowing/disallowing ringers, not the admins who make decisions like banning aim for streaming a match, banning a team for throwing because they played a class that doesn't conform to that admin's ideal form of tf2, or any other of the dozens of retarded bans that have been done.

theres been so many clear cases of admins abusing their power in rgl its become a joke to the community at this point.

admins very clearly make decisions based off personal vendettas https://www.teamfortress.tv/58722/seriously/?page=2#45

also when will i get my lan fees back that i had no choice to pay for and there was never a lan? :)

[quote=sigaretard]Per your example, aim's ban went through in a way it shouldn't have in our league, it didn't have a proper review. It happened six months ago, so my memory might be incorrect, but I cannot find any communication that was directly opened to us in terms of an appeal, prior to the creation of the thread on TFTV[/quote]

if there was no thread the ban would have been maintained, you consistently only go back on retarded decisions when theres public backlash which is why people believe these threads have to be made.

[quote]i don't feel superior to others[/quote]

why did you ban someone for sending you a trollface on discord when the only recourse anyone else would have had is "If someone is harassing you, just block them" seems like you feel pretty fucking superior using your ban powers when someone is annoying to you

[quote]We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions[/quote]

rgl surveys are literally a fucking joke, and you take the results of them as gospel.

people are talking about their div admin who decide things like forfeit wins and allowing/disallowing ringers, not the admins who make decisions like banning aim for streaming a match, banning a team for throwing because they played a class that doesn't conform to that admin's ideal form of tf2, or any other of the dozens of retarded bans that have been done.

theres been so many clear cases of admins abusing their power in rgl its become a joke to the community at this point.

admins very clearly make decisions based off personal vendettas https://www.teamfortress.tv/58722/seriously/?page=2#45

also when will i get my lan fees back that i had no choice to pay for and there was never a lan? :)
16
#16
-13 Frags +

https://www.teamfortress.tv/58442/reporting-misconduct-in-the-community
it's ok guys I found a very handy place to voice your complaints

https://www.teamfortress.tv/58442/reporting-misconduct-in-the-community
it's ok guys I found a very handy place to voice your complaints
17
#17
53 Frags +

https://puu.sh/IhCzU/20d1403fc2.png

[img]https://puu.sh/IhCzU/20d1403fc2.png[/img]
18
#18
4 Frags +
Air_ if there was no thread the ban would have been maintained, you consistently only go back on retarded decisions when theres public backlash which is why people believe these threads have to be made.

This is going quite far down the road of an alternate reality - but I think there is a legitimate point raised. Sigafoo has clearly expressed that ticket system is RGL’s preferred/intended method of communication for problems, which makes sense in that not every situation should be resolved publicly (Can you imagine what it’d be like if every issue raised took the form of a TFTV post?). This does raise an understandable legitimate concern though: how can we trust RGL to rule fairly with a closed-door system?

In my opinion, that’s the discussion that should happen instead of who-dun-it name namecalling threads tend to descend to. In my opinion THIS is the community’s role in the cycle that has gotten lost in the past.
When an community issue happens and RGL gives a ruling, the community and RGL cooperatively work to a system to prevent similar incidents from happening. Sigafoo has described RGLs council system and how AIM’s ban didn’t go through the process so after his response discussion should be about how bans are moved to council discussion and if there is a better way to streamline that process - or even what an accelerated process would look like so that not every appeal has to go through the council. If an issue is really one that could be resolved through simple discussion - then having a way for an obvious situation to not have to go through a lengthy council trial seems ideal.

In any case, there is a small catch-22 here - regardless of how successful the ticket system is - it’s results aren’t made public, while any case on TFTV is; this is an another discussion worth having and another issue to work around.

Air_ why did you ban someone for sending you a trollface on discord when the only recourse anyone else would have had is "If someone is harassing you, just block them" seems like you feel pretty fucking superior using your ban powers when someone is annoying to you

So my gut instinct when first hearing about this situation was that punishment should befit the crime, and that maybe a mute would have sufficed - but things aren’t very cut and dry when you’re an admin. When I did admin for several communities, one of the rules I held myself to was that I couldn’t block anyone, I held my tongue and listened to people I disliked or disagreed with because as an admin I had a responsibility to hear them out. Even if I was being trolled - I had to be gullible just in case there was a legitimate emergency. I’m not saying this what went through sigafoo’s mind, but honestly at the very least it set a precedent - I have to wonder how many other league admins have avoided being harassed as a result of players knowing there are serious repercussions.

I’ve held the ideal admin is one that rarely has to use their powers, it would have been nice if Sigafoo managed to explain how trolling wasn’t appreciated and convince the other party without it escalating, but in any case, I’m not sure any of this has any relevance - taking a look at the wider picture I just want to make it explicitly clear that what Sigafoo says in this thread - he’s not just speaking for himself - he’s speaking officially on behalf of RGL, no matter how much you hate sigafoo, evaluate his words. To attack sigafoo here is literally shooting the messenger.

Air_Surveys / Lan fees

Another discussion worth having: how can RGL do surveys better - be it questions or receiving responses. I’d also like some explanation for the results not being made public - but I can understand why they might not.

Personal vendettas: Instead of just pointing out incidents, perhaps we should suggest methods of having fixed rulings - ie: limit the ways they CAN abuse their power (I’m thinking specifically w/ ringers&restrictions, but I think the issue is expandable)

Lan fees: I think this is legitimate, even if the money ended up getting just thrown into the bin, an explanation should be provided if there hasn’t been one already.

[quote=Air_] if there was no thread the ban would have been maintained, you consistently only go back on retarded decisions when theres public backlash which is why people believe these threads have to be made.[/quote]

This is going quite far down the road of an alternate reality - but I think there is a legitimate point raised. Sigafoo has clearly expressed that ticket system is RGL’s preferred/intended method of communication for problems, which makes sense in that not every situation should be resolved publicly (Can you imagine what it’d be like if every issue raised took the form of a TFTV post?). This does raise an understandable legitimate concern though: how can we trust RGL to rule fairly with a closed-door system?

In my opinion, that’s the discussion that should happen instead of who-dun-it name namecalling threads tend to descend to. In my opinion THIS is the community’s role in the cycle that has gotten lost in the past.
When an community issue happens and RGL gives a ruling, the community and RGL cooperatively work to a system to prevent similar incidents from happening. Sigafoo has described RGLs council system and how AIM’s ban didn’t go through the process so after his response discussion should be about how bans are moved to council discussion and if there is a better way to streamline that process - or even what an accelerated process would look like so that not every appeal has to go through the council. If an issue is really one that could be resolved through simple discussion - then having a way for an obvious situation to not have to go through a lengthy council trial seems ideal.

In any case, there is a small catch-22 here - regardless of how successful the ticket system is - it’s results aren’t made public, while any case on TFTV is; this is an another discussion worth having and another issue to work around.

[quote=Air_] why did you ban someone for sending you a trollface on discord when the only recourse anyone else would have had is "If someone is harassing you, just block them" seems like you feel pretty fucking superior using your ban powers when someone is annoying to you
[/quote]

So my gut instinct when first hearing about this situation was that punishment should befit the crime, and that maybe a mute would have sufficed - but things aren’t very cut and dry when you’re an admin. When I did admin for several communities, one of the rules I held myself to was that I couldn’t block anyone, I held my tongue and listened to people I disliked or disagreed with because as an admin I had a responsibility to hear them out. Even if I was being trolled - I had to be gullible just in case there was a legitimate emergency. I’m not saying this what went through sigafoo’s mind, but honestly at the very least it set a precedent - I have to wonder how many other league admins have avoided being harassed as a result of players knowing there are serious repercussions.

I’ve held the ideal admin is one that rarely has to use their powers, it would have been nice if Sigafoo managed to explain how trolling wasn’t appreciated and convince the other party without it escalating, but in any case, I’m not sure any of this has any relevance - taking a look at the wider picture I just want to make it explicitly clear that what Sigafoo says in this thread - he’s not just speaking for himself - he’s speaking officially on behalf of RGL, no matter how much you hate sigafoo, evaluate his words. To attack sigafoo here is literally shooting the messenger.

[quote=Air_]Surveys / Lan fees[/quote]
Another discussion worth having: how can RGL do surveys better - be it questions or receiving responses. I’d also like some explanation for the results not being made public - but I can understand why they might not.

Personal vendettas: Instead of just pointing out incidents, perhaps we should suggest methods of having fixed rulings - ie: limit the ways they CAN abuse their power (I’m thinking specifically w/ ringers&restrictions, but I think the issue is expandable)

Lan fees: I think this is legitimate, even if the money ended up getting just thrown into the bin, an explanation should be provided if there hasn’t been one already.
19
#19
3 Frags +
FlipFTW What discussions are taking place - what things you’d like opinions on : I assume one of the reasons you wanted to become staff was to be or help build a bridge to this community right? Is there any chance we can see RGL take initiative in asking TFTV for opinions rather than a weak survey or only showing up to put out fires?

I'm happy to hear any suggestions, my DM's as well as Reno's and most other admins are always open. I can't comment too much on league wide issues but I can talk a bit on what I've been focusing on in invite. We've had a few div-wide meetings so far that have been focused on getting feed back and discussing short comings, and overall I think those have been pretty productive. They lead to things like getting granary into the invite map pool and are helping us solve ringer issues that pop up in invite. That's not to say all of those decisions are perfect, more just to show we are trying to continually improve lanes of communications.

My discord is virgil#5087 if anyone wants to message me on how to improve communication with tftv! My initial ideas would be to work with tftv writers to get our normal updates more easily accessible on these forums. We do have a lot of resources available but I think the big issue is we don't really advertise how to reach them easily from tftv, so I'd be interested in how to address that as well.

[quote=FlipFTW] What discussions are taking place - what things you’d like opinions on : I assume one of the reasons you wanted to become staff was to be or help build a bridge to this community right? Is there any chance we can see RGL take initiative in asking TFTV for opinions rather than a weak survey or only showing up to put out fires?[/quote]

I'm happy to hear any suggestions, my DM's as well as Reno's and most other admins are always open. I can't comment too much on league wide issues but I can talk a bit on what I've been focusing on in invite. We've had a few div-wide meetings so far that have been focused on getting feed back and discussing short comings, and overall I think those have been pretty productive. They lead to things like getting granary into the invite map pool and are helping us solve ringer issues that pop up in invite. That's not to say all of those decisions are perfect, more just to show we are trying to continually improve lanes of communications.

My discord is virgil#5087 if anyone wants to message me on how to improve communication with tftv! My initial ideas would be to work with tftv writers to get our normal updates more easily accessible on these forums. We do have a lot of resources available but I think the big issue is we don't really advertise how to reach them easily from tftv, so I'd be interested in how to address that as well.
20
#20
RGL.gg
3 Frags +

I am always open to listening to criticisms and suggestions to how we handle things over at RGL. We are always looking to improve how we handle situations and we appreciate the suggestions people give us to be better for the community. My DMS are open for discussion over at reno#0019!

I am always open to listening to criticisms and suggestions to how we handle things over at RGL. We are always looking to improve how we handle situations and we appreciate the suggestions people give us to be better for the community. My DMS are open for discussion over at reno#0019!
21
#21
tf2pickup.org
8 Frags +
sigafooFor example, if you say a slur in a match, we will share the log with you and what you said, because it does not reveal the identity of the reporter. Though in the vast majority of bans, it's uncommon for people to reach out to request this information, as they generally already know what they did.

Yooo that's sick!! Where's my log where I said the n-word please?

[quote=sigafoo]For example, if you say a slur in a match, we will share the log with you and what you said, because it does not reveal the identity of the reporter. Though in the vast majority of bans, it's uncommon for people to reach out to request this information, as they generally already know what they did.
[/quote]

Yooo that's sick!! Where's my log where I said the n-word please?
22
#22
5 Frags +
FlipFTW not just speaking for himself - he’s speaking officially on behalf of RGL, no matter how much you hate sigafoo, evaluate his words. To attack sigafoo here is literally shooting the messenger.

Nah, he doesn't get that out. He is literally the sole owner of the org and company. He can can change anything he wants within the league and the management structure at the drop of a hat. He's the one person that does not get the cop out of "he's just the messenger" because he has sole power to pull the stick out of the organizations ass. It's also no mystery that RGL and sigafoo ban, mute and ignore dissenting opinions, as it has been that way since day 1, that's literally part of the core issue. Obviously I am one of the most biased people in this whole thing and have my own stick up my ass about it all so take it for what you will, but continuing to give him and or the league these outs is exactly why nothing is actually changing.

[quote=FlipFTW] not just speaking for himself - he’s speaking officially on behalf of RGL, no matter how much you hate sigafoo, evaluate his words. To attack sigafoo here is literally shooting the messenger.
[/quote]


Nah, he doesn't get that out. He is literally the sole owner of the org and company. He can can change anything he wants within the league and the management structure at the drop of a hat. He's the one person that does not get the cop out of "he's just the messenger" because he has sole power to pull the stick out of the organizations ass. It's also no mystery that RGL and sigafoo ban, mute and ignore dissenting opinions, as it has been that way since day 1, that's literally part of the core issue. Obviously I am one of the most biased people in this whole thing and have my own stick up my ass about it all so take it for what you will, but continuing to give him and or the league these outs is exactly why nothing is actually changing.
23
#23
3 Frags +
Tino_ Nah, he doesn't get that out. He is literally the sole owner of the org and company. He can can change anything he wants within the league and the management structure at the drop of a hat. He's the one person that does not get the cop out of "he's just the messenger" because he has sole power to pull the stick out of the organizations ass.

Ok, let’s explore this idea deeper - you’re probably right that sigafoo has some form of ultimate final decision making power - but what would you have him change? He might be able to change things at the drop of a hat - but what would you suggest he do to make things better? It’s not like he can make people use the ticket system or probably even show if it is effective - if there is an obvious fix to many issues let’s suggest it - I assume both parties want the same thing (do you think RGL likes having to put out fires?). If he has ultimate power why don’t we try to put at least some effort in convincing him instead of insulting him? Have people tried working with him instead of against him? What purpose does calling him “sigretard” serve besides venting and just deteriorating relationships further?

Tino_…no mystery that RGL and sigafoo ban, mute and ignore dissenting opinions, as it has been that way since day 1, that's literally part of the core issue.

RGL being a collection of individuals - one of the reasons I lean so heavily RGL sympathizer right now is because we have a pretty kickass cast for staff this season - one I (perhaps naively) believe is interested in making significant changes and repairing a fractured relationship with their community - but we have to give them a chance.

People say they want better communication from RGL, and it’s not perfect, but here is RGL, in this thread, trying to express that they are listening - and if we meet them with hostility and don’t even hear them out, then why would they be willing to keep trying to cooperate?

What I’m trying to express here is that when we fail to communicate, when RGL is forced to walk on eggshells - forced to act cold rather than warm in a small community - even if it feels great to vent - everyone loses.

Tino_ these outs is exactly why nothing is actually changing.

Maybe I’m too much of an idealist, but from my perspective RGL seems like it wants to change - even if it’s just verbally, you have two RGL staff in this thread asking people to DM them (probably because they know the likelihood of having a workable conversation on TFTV).

I don’t think the community has been too easy on RGL - when they do mess up there are no shortage of TFTV posts criticizing them. Post in defense of them are often those saying they understand but don’t agree or those realizing they can’t think of a better solution.

I don’t have all the answers, but maybe the reason “nothing is changing” is because some people can’t bury the hatchet?

[quote=Tino_] Nah, he doesn't get that out. He is literally the sole owner of the org and company. He can can change anything he wants within the league and the management structure at the drop of a hat. He's the one person that does not get the cop out of "he's just the messenger" because he has sole power to pull the stick out of the organizations ass.[/quote]
Ok, let’s explore this idea deeper - you’re probably right that sigafoo has some form of ultimate final decision making power - but what would you have him change? He might be able to change things at the drop of a hat - but what would you suggest he do to make things better? It’s not like he can make people use the ticket system or probably even show if it is effective - if there is an obvious fix to many issues let’s suggest it - I assume both parties want the same thing (do you think RGL likes having to put out fires?). If he has ultimate power why don’t we try to put at least some effort in convincing him instead of insulting him? Have people tried working with him instead of against him? What purpose does calling him “sigretard” serve besides venting and just deteriorating relationships further?

[quote=Tino_]…no mystery that RGL and sigafoo ban, mute and ignore dissenting opinions, as it has been that way since day 1, that's literally part of the core issue. [/quote]
RGL being a collection of individuals - one of the reasons I lean so heavily RGL sympathizer right now is because we have a pretty kickass cast for staff this season - one I (perhaps naively) believe is interested in making significant changes and repairing a fractured relationship with their community - but we have to give them a chance.

People say they want better communication from RGL, and it’s not perfect, but here is RGL, in this thread, trying to express that they are listening - and if we meet them with hostility and don’t even hear them out, then why would they be willing to keep trying to cooperate?

What I’m trying to express here is that when we fail to communicate, when RGL is forced to walk on eggshells - forced to act cold rather than warm in a small community - even if it feels great to vent - [b]everyone loses.[/b]

[quote=Tino_] these outs is exactly why nothing is actually changing. [/quote]

Maybe I’m too much of an idealist, but from my perspective RGL seems like it wants to change - even if it’s just verbally, you have two RGL staff in this thread asking people to DM them (probably because they know the likelihood of having a workable conversation on TFTV).

I don’t think the community has been too easy on RGL - when they do mess up there are no shortage of TFTV posts criticizing them. Post in defense of them are often those saying they understand but don’t agree or those realizing they can’t think of a better solution.

I don’t have all the answers, but maybe the reason “nothing is changing” is because some people can’t bury the hatchet?
24
#24
tf2pickup.org
-4 Frags +
FlipFTW

Hey there! Not sure if you're in the clue, but there's been several past extreme issues with policies or admin decisions that have a lasting effect on today.

While yes, this season does have great staff members and have a great opporunity to grow (rooting for it!), I cannot see possibly how this can change without some significant overhauls to how transparancy with decisions and the speed of those decisions.

Listen, I myself have given RGL the chances over years to address these issues. I've lost that motivation as of recently, because they're proving to me, once again, that they're not looking to change. Unless one of these admins has the power to actually change it, it won't change. I'll take an opportunity here again to reach out about gripes I hold and how I think the scene can be moved, but without sufficient backing from both these admins and the actual real people who hold power, I will have just wasted more time of both me and the admins.

Please, Virgil, Reno, both of you have a lot of opportunity on your shoulder. I don't want to see your efforts go to waste, but I also don't want to see this at the cost of your own health. I think you both have the ability and know-how to correct mistakes quickly, but the question I have is, can you do this fast?

[quote=FlipFTW][/quote]
Hey there! Not sure if you're in the clue, but there's been several past extreme issues with policies or admin decisions that have a lasting effect on today.

While yes, this season does have great staff members and have a great opporunity to grow (rooting for it!), I cannot see possibly how this can change without some significant overhauls to how transparancy with decisions and the speed of those decisions.

Listen, I myself have given RGL the chances over years to address these issues. I've lost that motivation as of recently, because they're proving to me, once again, that they're not looking to change. Unless one of these admins has the power to actually change it, it won't change. I'll take an opportunity here again to reach out about gripes I hold and how I think the scene can be moved, but without sufficient backing from both these admins and the actual real people who hold power, I will have just wasted more time of both me and the admins.

Please, Virgil, Reno, both of you have a lot of opportunity on your shoulder. I don't want to see your efforts go to waste, but I also don't want to see this at the cost of your own health. I think you both have the ability and know-how to correct mistakes quickly, but the question I have is, can you do this fast?
25
#25
2 Frags +
24The past’s influence on the future

Hi, It is undeniable that there has been issues with policies or decisions in the past: and the effect it has now is present just by some of the posts in this thread - but what I’m concerned about is how everyone wants change, but those willing to do something about it are so competitively few.

In my mind good criticism comes in two parts - identifying the issues AND suggesting a better alternative. Instead of telling RGL to fix their system - why don’t people present proposals of how to fix these issues to RGL - at the very least that way instead of overworked admins solving everything everyone has told them is wrong - they can focus on evaluation and application instead of design. I’m not saying the community should freely design all rules - but I am saying that we can help (If the change is too slow, what can YOU do to accelerate it).

24Change is impossible

I understand being cynical, but literally nothing can come from closing the doors to communication. 24 I have great respect for the things you’ve created for this community, but let me propose two theoretical examples:

Situation: RGL API gets taken down.

Universe 1
A (Internally) : Huh, the API went down - I’ll go ask what’s up
A: Hey, I noticed the API is down, any reason for that?
RGL: We traced one attack on the website that abused spamming our API, we’ve taken it down until we can ensure it can’t be abused.
A: Oh, that’s a pretty simple fix, you can add a rate limiter on requests to prevent that - here I can send over some documentation on how to do it if you’d like?
RGL: That’d be appreciated - we’ll try to get it back up ASAP.

Universe 2
A (internally) : Huh, the API went down

A (internally) : Wow it sure is taking a while.

A (internally) : I guess they just hate developers - screw this, why would I work on a project for a community that doesn’t care?

I’ll leave you to make the decision what universe is better.

[quote=24]The past’s influence on the future [/quote]
Hi, It is undeniable that there has been issues with policies or decisions in the past: and the effect it has now is present just by some of the posts in this thread - but what I’m concerned about is how everyone [i]wants[/i] change, but those willing to do something about it are so competitively few.

In my mind good criticism comes in two parts - identifying the issues AND suggesting a better alternative. Instead of telling RGL to fix their system - why don’t people present proposals of how to fix these issues to RGL - at the very least that way instead of overworked admins solving everything everyone has told them is wrong - they can focus on evaluation and application instead of design. I’m not saying the community should freely design all rules - but I am saying that we can help (If the change is too slow, what can YOU do to accelerate it).

[quote=24]Change is impossible[/quote]

I understand being cynical, but literally nothing can come from closing the doors to communication. 24 I have great respect for the things you’ve created for this community, but let me propose two theoretical examples:

Situation: RGL API gets taken down.

Universe 1
A (Internally) : Huh, the API went down - I’ll go ask what’s up
A: Hey, I noticed the API is down, any reason for that?
RGL: We traced one attack on the website that abused spamming our API, we’ve taken it down until we can ensure it can’t be abused.
A: Oh, that’s a pretty simple fix, you can add a rate limiter on requests to prevent that - here I can send over some documentation on how to do it if you’d like?
RGL: That’d be appreciated - we’ll try to get it back up ASAP.

Universe 2
A (internally) : Huh, the API went down

A (internally) : Wow it sure is taking a while.

A (internally) : I guess they just hate developers - screw this, why would I work on a project for a community that doesn’t care?

I’ll leave you to make the decision what universe is better.
26
#26
8 Frags +

I Dont Trust RGL Admins' Decisions When They Ban People Because They Dont Post The Monkey

I Dont Trust RGL Admins' Decisions When They Ban People Because They Dont Post The Monkey
27
#27
4 Frags +
ZestyI Dont Trust RGL Admins' Decisions When They Ban People Because They Dont Post The Monkey

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⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠂⠁⠑⠁⠄⠄ monke

[quote=Zesty]I Dont Trust RGL Admins' Decisions When They Ban People Because They Dont Post The Monkey[/quote]
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⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠄⠂⠁⠑⠁⠄⠄ monke
28
#28
tf2pickup.org
5 Frags +
FlipFTW

Hey there! Thanks for respond to me with your suggestions!

I don't think you quite understand what I am doing in order to restart the RGL API and get it back. I don't think you quite understand the amount of messaging and effort I put in to try to not only understand why it got taken down, but also how to restart it back up with feedback from RGL and give developers more flexibility today.

You're throwing words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it. I also, furthermore, haven't explained anything about the RGL API in a thread as of recently, and so I'm not sure how you know about this or why this was brought up. Seems like you know a lot more about RGL internal things than I ever could, clue me in buddy! I'd be happy to make some compromises.

Let me put this out there: I've reached out to many, many people about the RGL API and how I can help revive it. I've done this for months at this point, and reached out for years to the people at RGL to help build it better. So, with that in mind, you tell me that I outright am ignoring the problem and wishing on a star to hope it comes back is outright and irresponsibly wrong of you to assume.

flipftwIn my mind good criticism comes in two parts - identifying the issues AND suggesting a better alternative.

Yup. That's exactly what I've done. I've identified the issue, and I've suggested alternatives in many forms of communication to a dozen or so people. Don't see why this is something you're telling me.

flipftwInstead of telling RGL to fix their system - why don’t people present proposals of how to fix these issues to RGL - at the very least that way instead of overworked admins solving everything everyone has told them is wrong - they can focus on evaluation and application instead of design.

Yeah, I've done this. I've gone around the room and I've tried- multiple times. I eventually got my answer, and since then, I've reached out many times to help create or revamp the current system. Please, do clue me in on how I can get heard faster!

flipftwbut what I’m concerned about is how everyone wants change, but those willing to do something about it are so competitively few.

Yeah, me to. I think change would be great, and I actually would love to put in the effort to help facilitate change. I'm so fueled with ideas and emotions on what can make NA TF2 (furthermore, global TF2) that I'd love to sit down with people and suggest ideas. In fact, I even do that sometimes with people!

flipftwI’ll leave you to make the decision what universe is better.

Yup, I already have and will do what I think is best- reaching out to folks who can help me with this idea. I won't (and haven't) stop at "Ohhhh noooo my project is dead.... guess they don't want to help me!!!!".

flipftw24 I have great respect for the things you’ve created for this community, but let me propose two theoretical examples:

Thanks. I think what you're suggesting is good and all, but take into account the things that I might have already done and what I'm actively doing. I understand the message you're giving me, and believe me, I'm doing exactly what you're telling me to do.

What I want you to take away is this: I'm not someone who is complaining to just complain. I want change more than anyone else in NA, and I was willing to put in the time and effort to make this change happen. I have, and always will, actively reach out and promote ideas that will push TF2. I do most of my stuff behind the scenes, and I'd like to keep it that way, so if you want to reach out to me, by all means, you probably know my discord already.

Thinking I went a bit too far on this one... apologies. I will reach out in private.

[quote=FlipFTW][/quote]
Hey there! Thanks for respond to me with your suggestions!

I don't think you quite understand what I am doing in order to restart the RGL API and get it back. I don't think you quite understand the amount of messaging and effort I put in to try to not only understand why it got taken down, but also how to restart it back up with feedback from RGL and give developers more flexibility today.

You're throwing words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it. I also, furthermore, haven't explained anything about the RGL API in a thread as of recently, and so I'm not sure how you know about this or why this was brought up. Seems like you know a lot more about RGL internal things than I ever could, clue me in buddy! I'd be happy to make some compromises.

Let me put this out there: I've reached out to many, many people about the RGL API and how I can help revive it. I've done this for months at this point, and reached out for years to the people at RGL to help build it better. So, with that in mind, you tell me that I outright am ignoring the problem and wishing on a star to hope it comes back is outright and irresponsibly wrong of you to assume.

[quote=flipftw]In my mind good criticism comes in two parts - identifying the issues AND suggesting a better alternative.[/quote]
Yup. That's exactly what I've done. I've identified the issue, and I've suggested alternatives in many forms of communication to a dozen or so people. Don't see why this is something you're telling me.

[quote=flipftw]Instead of telling RGL to fix their system - why don’t people present proposals of how to fix these issues to RGL - at the very least that way instead of overworked admins solving everything everyone has told them is wrong - they can focus on evaluation and application instead of design.[/quote]
Yeah, I've done this. I've gone around the room and I've tried- multiple times. I eventually got my answer, and since then, I've reached out many times to help create or revamp the current system. Please, do clue me in on how I can get heard faster!

[quote=flipftw]but what I’m concerned about is how everyone wants change, but those willing to do something about it are so competitively few.[/quote]

Yeah, me to. I think change would be great, and I actually would love to put in the effort to help facilitate change. I'm so fueled with ideas and emotions on what can make NA TF2 (furthermore, global TF2) that I'd love to sit down with people and suggest ideas. In fact, I even do that sometimes with people!

[quote=flipftw]I’ll leave you to make the decision what universe is better.[/quote]
Yup, I already have and will do what I think is best- reaching out to folks who can help me with this idea. I won't (and haven't) stop at "Ohhhh noooo my project is dead.... guess they don't want to help me!!!!".

[quote=flipftw]24 I have great respect for the things you’ve created for this community, but let me propose two theoretical examples:[/quote]
Thanks. I think what you're suggesting is good and all, but take into account the things that I might have already done and what I'm actively doing. I understand the message you're giving me, and believe me, I'm doing exactly what you're telling me to do.

What I want you to take away is this: I'm not someone who is complaining to just complain. I want change more than anyone else in NA, and I was willing to put in the time and effort to make this change happen. I have, and always will, actively reach out and promote ideas that will push TF2. I do most of my stuff behind the scenes, and I'd like to keep it that way, so if you want to reach out to me, by all means, you probably know my discord already.

Thinking I went a bit too far on this one... apologies. I will reach out in private.
29
#29
-1 Frags +
sigafoo why Mopsy got a player misconduct warning, and countless other bans and warnings that had simply no justification or concrete explanations from admins.
In cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.

yeah that's bullshit. When I and a group of gamers that RGL did not find in favor of got banned, many people including me asked for our "ban evidence".
https://imgur.com/a/fmzGTwx
All of our responses were the same, "we do not reveal the information to the party involved". Admit it, yall ban people cuz you don't like them and you find the reasons to justify it later.

[quote=sigafoo][quote] why Mopsy got a player misconduct warning, and countless other bans and warnings that had simply no justification or concrete explanations from admins.[/quote]

In cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.[/quote]

yeah that's bullshit. When I and a group of gamers that RGL did not find in favor of got banned, many people including me asked for our "ban evidence".
https://imgur.com/a/fmzGTwx
All of our responses were the same, "we do not reveal the information to the party involved". Admit it, yall ban people cuz you don't like them and you find the reasons to justify it later.
30
#30
2 Frags +
FlipFTWOk, let’s explore this idea deeper - you’re probably right that sigafoo has some form of ultimate final decision making power - but what would you have him change? He might be able to change things at the drop of a hat - but what would you suggest he do to make things better?

At this point? Literally the entire league probably should be restructured. I don't have a super deep knowledge of what's actually going on because I haven't played since ESEA died. But from just the threads that are posted the issues range from banning hackers and stupid demo requirements that don't achieve anything, seemingly arbitrary maps or rules changing because some invite illuminati meeting was held once, RGL overreaching its authority and "sanctioning" scrims or matches while not actually providing anything for said things, broken configs, the list goes on. But again, I am not involved at this point, im just a monkey throwing shit at a wall half for entertainment and half because it still bugs me that the NA player base fucked itself so hard and can't seem to fix that mistake.

If he has ultimate power why don’t we try to put at least some effort in convincing him instead of insulting him? Have people tried working with him instead of against him? What purpose does calling him “sigretard” serve besides venting and just deteriorating relationships further?

I am not sure how long you have been around the community, but there is a lot of bad blood between higher level players of old and sigafoo. Has a lot to do with past things he has said and positions he has taken as well as decisions he has made trying to run things like NR6s as well as individuals like me or air or any number of a list of players being very toxic when voicing our displeasure.

FlipFTWRGL being a collection of individuals - one of the reasons I lean so heavily RGL sympathizer right now is because we have a pretty kickass cast for staff this season - one I (perhaps naively) believe is interested in making significant changes and repairing a fractured relationship with their community - but we have to give them a chance.

Sure, but the issue is RGL has fucked up so many times in the past its tough for people to just give them another chance. It does blow for the admins and the people who do want to try and make things better but unfortunately there is unavoidable baggage that they have to deal with. ESEA had a person fuck up and use the client as a bitcoin miner 10 years ago now, people still meme about it. People have a long memory and if you fuck things up that stigma will stick with you and you have to deal with that. If might not be the current admins fault, but they are still attached to the org that allowed stupid shit to happen in the first place.

People say they want better communication from RGL, and it’s not perfect, but here is RGL, in this thread, trying to express that they are listening - and if we meet them with hostility and don’t even hear them out, then why would they be willing to keep trying to cooperate?

Again, RGL has a history of saying one thing (or nothing at all tbh) and then just going and fucking something else up not 2 weeks later repeatedly. Even if the new and current admins are literal angels, there is so much bad blood built up it cant just be forgotten overnight.

What I’m trying to express here is that when we fail to communicate, when RGL is forced to walk on eggshells - forced to act cold rather than warm in a small community - even if it feels great to vent - everyone loses.

RGL isn't forced to do anything. Clearly no one in NA is willing to change leagues and are OK enough with the current situation to stick with RGL, so if RGL wants a better public image then they just need to do things that will facilitate that. They are more than free to act warmly to the community by engaging with posts or news articles more. They can actively look to provide more and better content, none of this requires people other than them. If they want to do it they easily can. But again, lots of bad blood and history between the "tftv" crowd and the higherups at RGL. Like hell its extremely well know that sigafoo thinks less of people who post on tftv and engage with this section of the community. Started with us being "6s elitists" when he was a HL engy main, and only got worse when he decided to fuck with shit like the surprise NR6s tournament. Sigafoo has always been an outsider to the 6s community and that is reflected by the way RGL deals with 6s as a whole.

[quote=FlipFTW]Ok, let’s explore this idea deeper - you’re probably right that sigafoo has some form of ultimate final decision making power - but what would you have him change? He might be able to change things at the drop of a hat - but what would you suggest he do to make things better?[/quote]

At this point? Literally the entire league probably should be restructured. I don't have a super deep knowledge of what's actually going on because I haven't played since ESEA died. But from just the threads that are posted the issues range from banning hackers and stupid demo requirements that don't achieve anything, seemingly arbitrary maps or rules changing because some invite illuminati meeting was held once, RGL overreaching its authority and "sanctioning" scrims or matches while not actually providing anything for said things, broken configs, the list goes on. But again, I am not involved at this point, im just a monkey throwing shit at a wall half for entertainment and half because it still bugs me that the NA player base fucked itself so hard and can't seem to fix that mistake.

[quote]If he has ultimate power why don’t we try to put at least some effort in convincing him instead of insulting him? Have people tried working with him instead of against him? What purpose does calling him “sigretard” serve besides venting and just deteriorating relationships further?
[/quote]

I am not sure how long you have been around the community, but there is [i]a lot [/i] of bad blood between higher level players of old and sigafoo. Has a lot to do with past things he has said and positions he has taken as well as decisions he has made trying to run things like NR6s as well as individuals like me or air or any number of a list of players being very toxic when voicing our displeasure.

[quote=FlipFTW]RGL being a collection of individuals - one of the reasons I lean so heavily RGL sympathizer right now is because we have a pretty kickass cast for staff this season - one I (perhaps naively) believe is interested in making significant changes and repairing a fractured relationship with their community - but we have to give them a chance. [/quote]

Sure, but the issue is RGL has fucked up so many times in the past its tough for people to just give them [i]another[/i] chance. It does blow for the admins and the people who do want to try and make things better but unfortunately there is unavoidable baggage that they have to deal with. ESEA had a person fuck up and use the client as a bitcoin miner 10 years ago now, people still meme about it. People have a long memory and if you fuck things up that stigma will stick with you and you have to deal with that. If might not be the current admins fault, but they are still attached to the org that allowed stupid shit to happen in the first place.

[quote]People say they want better communication from RGL, and it’s not perfect, but here is RGL, in this thread, trying to express that they are listening - and if we meet them with hostility and don’t even hear them out, then why would they be willing to keep trying to cooperate? [/quote]

Again, RGL has a history of saying one thing (or nothing at all tbh) and then just going and fucking something else up not 2 weeks later repeatedly. Even if the new and current admins are literal angels, there is so much bad blood built up it cant just be forgotten overnight.

[quote]What I’m trying to express here is that when we fail to communicate, when RGL is forced to walk on eggshells - forced to act cold rather than warm in a small community - even if it feels great to vent - [b]everyone loses.[/b]
[/quote]

RGL isn't forced to do anything. Clearly no one in NA is willing to change leagues and are OK enough with the current situation to stick with RGL, so if RGL wants a better public image then they just need to do things that will facilitate that. They are more than free to act warmly to the community by engaging with posts or news articles more. They can actively look to provide more and better content, none of this requires people other than them. If they want to do it they easily can. But again, lots of bad blood and history between the "tftv" crowd and the higherups at RGL. Like hell its extremely well know that sigafoo thinks less of people who post on tftv and engage with this section of the community. Started with us being "6s elitists" when he was a HL engy main, and only got worse when he decided to fuck with shit like the surprise NR6s tournament. Sigafoo has [i]always[/i] been an outsider to the 6s community and that is reflected by the way RGL deals with 6s as a whole.
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