FlipFTW
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Last Posted November 21, 2022 at 1:54 PM
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#3 RGL | Sixes Midseason Cup #2 - Map Feedback in Map Discussion
b0nes_NAsultry>villa>mannbase
good to see sultry go from a cluttered mess in pugs to easily a great map that imo could be added. maybe a few tweaks but its a great fresh map to the pool

Thanks for this kind comment, but I've heard it all around swapped and even reversed. When it comes to comparing the maps the opinions I've seen generally seen people insist the quality of the maps is nowhere near close (There is a clear "better" map), but what the best map is to be all over the place.

Overall I'm happy with Sultry's iterative improvement overtime, I think with every version we do manage to improve the map - while villa and mannbase have both had a longer existence and more playtests, I think we've been lucky enough to have a close group of friends willing to give deep feedback (a benefit I doubt many mappers have) in addition to my limited completive experience to fall back on.

From my "research" (Watching Invite POVs and talking to some others), I've generally collected the idea that mannbase's MID is primarily disliked (likely due to scale), while Sultry's Last (and 2nd) is generally disliked. Immediately following the conclusion of the cup Pig and I sought out some "invite" opinions and starting drafting out changes. Hopefully b8 will be an improvement - though improvements we make will definitely be affected by feedback (Hence the survey!)

If you really care about maps, PLEASE take the time to fill out the survey, at least for Sultry I can promise we'll seriously consider all suggestions, identified problems, and potential solutions.

With the next update I'll also take the time to write out "thoughts" behind the changes like for b7 notes - even if you don't follow the development closely, if you can read the changes, FEEL the changes and tell me how I'm wrong/mistaken about ideas, helping improve my understanding of the map and 6s can help make an even better map.

posted 2 weeks ago
#1 RGL | Sixes Midseason Cup #2 - Map Feedback in Map Discussion

Hi TFTV,

RGL "recently" ran their Sixes Midseason Cup #2, featuring

  • cp_sultry_b7 by PigPig (and FlipFTW)
  • cp_mannbase_rc2a by skaz
  • cp_villa_b19 by kevin gator

While I'm grateful for RGL helping playtest the maps and I think exp cups are crucial to getting a more diverse map pool, the cup officially ended 11/2 (Nov 2nd), and despite a few weeks passing (Currently the 19th), communication has been rocky regarding receiving feedback about the maps and their potential to be added to the pool.

skaz in particular has expressed a similar frustration last cup, and overall I had the thought to take the matter of feedback collection for map improvement into my own hands.
---------------------------------------

====> UNOFFICAL Feedback Form <====

---------------------------------------
If you're interested in leaving feedback on any of the 3 listed maps, please fill out the linked form above, the steps should be self-explanatory.
-----------------------------------

Individual Map Threads (If you prefer to leave even more direct feedback):

posted 2 weeks ago
#8 Money And Development: A Spectator’s Suggestions in TF2 General Discussion
Reero your initial statement saying rgl is a paid league that provides the services of a free one is a bit disingenuous as basically any team that plays invite or makes playoffs in the lower divs makes money from playing the game.

Hm, I don’t really think what I said was wrong but I see where you’re coming from.
Just in case I’ll say explicitly again RGL isn’t stealing money - the league fees do go into the prize pool, in fact that’s where all the money goes!

The angle I’m more looking at it from is what SERVICE does RGL provide?

Let me put it like this - If I’m paying 20 dollars to play in a large league, BESIDES a prize pool what should I expect?
I think reasonable expectations might be that a portion of that money is being used to ensure matches are smoothly organized, cheaters are caught, perhaps additional events organized…
They don’t host match servers, don’t do any development, don’t have any admin incentives or rewards - as a result every service RGL provides outside of their prize pool is “free” - not supported or funded in any way, not functionally different than the service a fully free league.

The one sentence summary might be “there is no administration fee, so there is no administration”
This isn’t to say that having A will immediately solve B, but I’d like to start investing in solving problems.

That’s where the root of my perspective is, over the past year the prize pool has nearly doubled from $13,000 to $25,000 yet (AFAIK) nearly all of this is going still directly to the prize pool. Now this is really pure opinion, but I don’t think TF2 should be moving in a direction where our primary focus is pumping prize pool payout, there is absolutely no way to compete with other titles when it comes to monetary incentive.

This isn’t to say we should eliminate the prize pool, but the strength of TF2 has always been its community - and I’d rather a portion of the money be dedicated to exactly that - community projects instead of individuals pockets.

Hope that provides some perspective, thanks for the thoughts!

posted 4 months ago
#7 Money And Development: A Spectator’s Suggestions in TF2 General Discussion
Reero I don't see how anything listed or unlisted (aside from maybe providing servers) is worth spending money on or will significantly change the scene.

Perhaps I’m a bit more optimistic or cynical depending on your viewpoint.

Regarding Map Support: One division admin I’ve talked to expressed interest in running a map cup to support some of the already under appreciated 6s mappers, but told me that to run additional cups the administrative burden falls entirely on the admins who want those (if you want it do it yourself) - and ditto for any funding (fund it yourself).

Here’s where the potential proposal and feedback for being a volunteer could exist - service rewarded with money that still doesn’t go to single pockets but instead back to the community in the form of organized efforts.

My ideal support would probably be a funded sidepool off-season experimental map cup in addition to compensation via in-season incentives. The two main problems preventing map breakthroughs into the pool is a streamlined process for potential maps and a method of really incentivizing those maps be played.

To be more explicit:

  1. A League sponsored group that vets a “pool” of maps down to 3 during active season.
  2. An off-season Cup featuring the 3 maps where there is a prize pool or league reimbursement.
  3. The least popular map in the next season has the OPTION of being played on the top rated map (from cup) - doing so discounts a portion of both teams league fees

Regarding APIs:
I’m going to cut a few corners here and say there are two huge befits to an API that are apparent to me

  1. It could make the volunteer admin’s lives better

    It cuts out a huge amount of busywork admins basically do - my info might be outdated but the method I hear most admins use to determine info is bascially opening 30 tabs, hunting logs, and assigning a basic number (1-10). It’s not perfect but instead of having this as volunteer work (unpaid labor) there are people that would be willing to develop a functionally identical tool (don’t think about how the developers are also unpaid)… the problem being they need that public API.
    Arcadia So like the point of the API from a technical standpoint is it allows us to programmatically ask the RGL servers for all kinds of different information, names, matches, that sort of thing. If we had access to something like that it would make the development of tools much easier from a developer standpoint as we can incorporate the true identity of players into our projects. It might seem like this is a small thing, but being able to figure out the alias and skill of a player is really difficult from logs or demos alone, and this would expedite all of that…
    ...and as developers, we love to make stuff. If there's a need for new tools, we would love to oblige, especially if it makes admins lives easier
  2. It would make it infinitely easier for any form of analysis, research, or basic organization.

    With other leagues you can see a history of matches a particular player has played in, this is basically a nightmare in RGL. It’s not even possible to determine who is really on a roster without scraping the site and I constantly find myself confused if someone is actually on a team or just roster riding… and even then the website is - I quote “Slower than the muma rollout”.

So yeah, a public API is fuzzy because it’s the backbone other tools work off, but RGL doesn’t have one, and logs.tf does which is why you see so many creations and tools that work with logs, but none with RGL. I probably bungled this explanation, maybe someone else can explain it better

Other thoughts about rearrangement of funds/

Currently the method of discouraging sandbagging is basically something like getting 8th place in main is better than 1st place IM. The way this is done is essentially by stacking the division up with cash relative to the prior division, which gets really extreme in Invite.

I personally think - especially for lower divisions, it should work off something like if you get Top 3 IM you can get your fee waived for Main. To compensate other rewards should probably be toned down (I really think 5-8 getting the same quite high amount is a tad awkward).

posted 4 months ago
#1 Money And Development: A Spectator’s Suggestions in TF2 General Discussion

On October 21, 2021 I submitted three proposals to RGL.

The primary one was titled
* “[Money and Development - A Spectator's Suggestions (M.A.D.A.S.S.)]”

The premise was this: RGL is a league that receives an arguably unfair expectation some of which can be traced to its required 6s fee. RGL is a paid league that offers the service and development of a free one.

The takeaway thesis: RGL by my estimation spends less than 1% of its funds on sustainability and development of the scene (Newbie Drive). It’s well past time to change what that money is doing - to stop putting the money purely into the prize pool (commendable but flawed), and start putting it into community efforts that grow and sustain the scene (Mapping efforts, API development, Learning Resources, and League Growth Incentives).

In my document I catalogue both methods of rearranging these funds in addition to proposals to support. As mentioned this document was conceived and contributed close to a year ago, since then I’ve not received any word from RGL about the ideas nor generated significant interest in rearrangement of the funding.

I am thus releasing this document publicly in the hopes of stimulating a conversation regarding this topic.
Even if you don’t play in RGL or even if you don’t play competitive anymore I’d be interested to hear insight or ideas.

Is it right that 2/3 of the funding is locked into solely Invite? Are there any better proposals or avenues I’ve missed? How else could growth be supported? What other projects or ideas are worth supporting and how?

r/truetf2 Post
RGL Forums

posted 4 months ago
#1 Process Mid - Attitude for Sides? in TF2 General Discussion

I’ll try to keep the question part short: I received two conflicting opinions about process mid that I wanted to share and get more opinions on. Appreciate any discussion or insights, especially from high level players - both opinions are my summarized understanding from adv. players.
For clarification: Left meet / Left meat => the perspective of a team that plays left against a team that is playing right.

Opinion 1: (Left Meat = Passive, Right Meat = Aggressive)
On a left meat mid you’re looking to play passive as the proximity of the geometry generally ensures the opposing team will have control of your crate first. This is fine as your demo can efficiently clear them off while your combo has enough room and ground to maneuver to dodge spam. After you’ve knocked their players off height, you can take control of your crate or simply bomb past it while the enemy team is locked into a corner.
Conversely, on a right mid you gain immediate control of the crate - but have to quickly aggress to take advantage of this control or else as soon as you lose your height you have no ability to continue fighting the mid/stay in.

Opinion 2: (Left Meat = Aggressive, Right Meat = Passive)
On a left meat mid you’re looking to play aggressive as your combo can’t play close to deny the high ground due to lack of cover from spam, and if they back out too far your flank will get focused into losing all high ground control of the mid. This aggression is especially true for your medic who doesn’t have the ability to play off the exposed pack and so needs to commit close to forwards off space made from your bombers.
On right mids, you can play passive as control of their crate gives you an effective bunker or kill zone to deny or efficiently trade bombers. If they don’t send bombers - then with your high ground control you can have your demo push forward to the pack where he can effectively lock out the opposing combo to win the mid.

posted about a year ago
#9 RGL: Money and Development- A Spectator Suggestion in TF2 General Discussion
Scream On Admin Interpretation / Automation

I'm not for complete automation (though that does seem like it'd be pretty sick ngl) - but I do think that right now the amount of things OPEN to interpretation is too damn high - and writing more rules to be lenient is fine, writing rule to be VAGUE (which gives more power to interpretation) is asking for trouble => vague rules + large admin team is a recipe for disaster (or at least more tftv threads).

Take ringers for example:
"A default ringer is the first ringer a team presents that is of the same or lower skill level as the team. Default ringers cannot be denied; however, if the opposing team believes the ringer is greatly better than the person they are replacing, then they should contact an admin citing the above criteria for ringers"

Ok, so for a default ringer dispute you have one party's interpretation of a players skill versus another party's interpretation VERSUS the admin interpretation.
I have to think RGL is even somewhat aware of how this vague and troubling this open to interpretation rule is as in main+ the rules even say no default ringers - because for starters more often than not the players most aware of that individual's "skill" are the ones in a dispute - and the admin will either very likely be bias (if they know a party/the player) or clueless (have to rapidly scan RGL page/logs to make a snap decision). I guess the real point I'm trying to make here is why have a system that gives admin the opportunity/ability to mess up - I think well written rules SHOULDN'T be open to interpretation, as each admin trying to understand the rules and applying their own understanding of them results in a disorganized mess that TFTV and others point out as RGL inconsistency.

Consider restrictions... same deal - one person deciding who gets to play and who doesn't, which possibly no interaction with the player they are assigning and no PUBLIC criteria, guideline, or rubric their decisions can be held responsible to. I don't know the details of how RGL does it, but given how late some restrictions come and how inconsistent I've seen some past performances vs restrictions - I have to think it ends up being a lot less structured decision-making and a lot more hope-and-pray.

The solution? Well I was working on a document proposal but the general idea should be to have a STANDARIZED (public) CRITERA for "skill" level of a player. A line drawn in sand where having these checklist of accomplishments qualifies you as a "Main-level demo" - and both ringing and restriction follow suit. What that criteria should be is what admin experience/interpretation should work towards, but that public rubric at least allows some admins who might not be qualified to make important decisions with a guideline and some template for decisions to be held accountable against.

posted about a year ago
#5 RGL: Money and Development- A Spectator Suggestion in TF2 General Discussion
JojoI read through everything and while I can't say for sure any of the specifics are the best course of action I support the concept 100 percent. I've been saying for a while now that it's absurd that rgl is a paid league that doesn't pay it's staff.

Thanks for taking the time to read through everything. I'm not really dead-set on pushing my specific proposals, but I hope to at least spark some discussion into what can be done better (or at all).

I think the paid staff point is an interesting one, but I'd rather take a different approach.
Rather than pay the admins for the work they do which right now they certainly should be compensated for, I'd like to see if it could go the other way around - reducing their workload to one which is more acceptable for volunteer work.

(Hot Take?) I don't think paying the staff wouldn't be so bad if a majority of the staff of volunteers primary role was to MONITOR systems or execute FIXED RULES instead of being forced to make their own interpretation/do other heavy lifting.

It might just be an idealistic POV, but I think if money went into development into systems that could assist/lighten the responsibility of admins, that's a better long term fix than compensating individuals for their time (I think unless RGL is looking to hire people full time, paying every staff is a slippery slope.)

posted about a year ago
#1 RGL: Money and Development- A Spectator Suggestion in TF2 General Discussion

Howdy TFTV,

I wrote a proposal about a week ago regarding the RGL prize pool and finances - at some point of being told that the reason something was scuffed or not done well was because RGL was a volunteer community/organization I got fed up enough to try to do something about it.

Let me preface by saying I like to think I can somewhat understand - to echo the words of one of my close friends

If you want something done right, you're going to have to pay me for it

So I attempt to tackle the problem from a different angle - here is a bit from the preface and an image of the table of contents.

Quote:

RGL is a paid league; despite RGL putting the vast majority of that payment toward the prize pool, there is an arguably unfair expectation put upon the league as a result of the cost. For starters - I think players expect a higher service for a league that they are putting money into versus one where they are not. The unfortunate reality is that RGL as a staff of volunteers are often unqualified to meet those expectations, and RGL as an organization lacking investment in development results in players becoming frustrated as the league seems to show a lacking desire to improve - not necessarily because of lack of intention, but because of a lack of funding and direction. "

Image of Table of Contents: https://i.imgur.com/okuKfZ5.png

I'd appreciate if y'all could give it a read and maybe provide some feedback or discussion.
Link: [RGL Proposal: Money and Development - A Spectator's Suggestions (M.A.D.A.S.S.)]

In the interest of being transparent and being open to discussion, my discord as well as links to the relevant forum threads are provided below.
Discord: FlipFTW#0777
TFTV Forums (You're here!)
RGL Forums

posted about a year ago
#25 CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!! in TF2 General Discussion
24The past’s influence on the future

Hi, It is undeniable that there has been issues with policies or decisions in the past: and the effect it has now is present just by some of the posts in this thread - but what I’m concerned about is how everyone wants change, but those willing to do something about it are so competitively few.

In my mind good criticism comes in two parts - identifying the issues AND suggesting a better alternative. Instead of telling RGL to fix their system - why don’t people present proposals of how to fix these issues to RGL - at the very least that way instead of overworked admins solving everything everyone has told them is wrong - they can focus on evaluation and application instead of design. I’m not saying the community should freely design all rules - but I am saying that we can help (If the change is too slow, what can YOU do to accelerate it).

24Change is impossible

I understand being cynical, but literally nothing can come from closing the doors to communication. 24 I have great respect for the things you’ve created for this community, but let me propose two theoretical examples:

Situation: RGL API gets taken down.

Universe 1
A (Internally) : Huh, the API went down - I’ll go ask what’s up
A: Hey, I noticed the API is down, any reason for that?
RGL: We traced one attack on the website that abused spamming our API, we’ve taken it down until we can ensure it can’t be abused.
A: Oh, that’s a pretty simple fix, you can add a rate limiter on requests to prevent that - here I can send over some documentation on how to do it if you’d like?
RGL: That’d be appreciated - we’ll try to get it back up ASAP.

Universe 2
A (internally) : Huh, the API went down

A (internally) : Wow it sure is taking a while.

A (internally) : I guess they just hate developers - screw this, why would I work on a project for a community that doesn’t care?

I’ll leave you to make the decision what universe is better.

posted about a year ago
#23 CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!! in TF2 General Discussion
Tino_ Nah, he doesn't get that out. He is literally the sole owner of the org and company. He can can change anything he wants within the league and the management structure at the drop of a hat. He's the one person that does not get the cop out of "he's just the messenger" because he has sole power to pull the stick out of the organizations ass.

Ok, let’s explore this idea deeper - you’re probably right that sigafoo has some form of ultimate final decision making power - but what would you have him change? He might be able to change things at the drop of a hat - but what would you suggest he do to make things better? It’s not like he can make people use the ticket system or probably even show if it is effective - if there is an obvious fix to many issues let’s suggest it - I assume both parties want the same thing (do you think RGL likes having to put out fires?). If he has ultimate power why don’t we try to put at least some effort in convincing him instead of insulting him? Have people tried working with him instead of against him? What purpose does calling him “sigretard” serve besides venting and just deteriorating relationships further?

Tino_…no mystery that RGL and sigafoo ban, mute and ignore dissenting opinions, as it has been that way since day 1, that's literally part of the core issue.

RGL being a collection of individuals - one of the reasons I lean so heavily RGL sympathizer right now is because we have a pretty kickass cast for staff this season - one I (perhaps naively) believe is interested in making significant changes and repairing a fractured relationship with their community - but we have to give them a chance.

People say they want better communication from RGL, and it’s not perfect, but here is RGL, in this thread, trying to express that they are listening - and if we meet them with hostility and don’t even hear them out, then why would they be willing to keep trying to cooperate?

What I’m trying to express here is that when we fail to communicate, when RGL is forced to walk on eggshells - forced to act cold rather than warm in a small community - even if it feels great to vent - everyone loses.

Tino_ these outs is exactly why nothing is actually changing.

Maybe I’m too much of an idealist, but from my perspective RGL seems like it wants to change - even if it’s just verbally, you have two RGL staff in this thread asking people to DM them (probably because they know the likelihood of having a workable conversation on TFTV).

I don’t think the community has been too easy on RGL - when they do mess up there are no shortage of TFTV posts criticizing them. Post in defense of them are often those saying they understand but don’t agree or those realizing they can’t think of a better solution.

I don’t have all the answers, but maybe the reason “nothing is changing” is because some people can’t bury the hatchet?

posted about a year ago
#18 CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!! in TF2 General Discussion
Air_ if there was no thread the ban would have been maintained, you consistently only go back on retarded decisions when theres public backlash which is why people believe these threads have to be made.

This is going quite far down the road of an alternate reality - but I think there is a legitimate point raised. Sigafoo has clearly expressed that ticket system is RGL’s preferred/intended method of communication for problems, which makes sense in that not every situation should be resolved publicly (Can you imagine what it’d be like if every issue raised took the form of a TFTV post?). This does raise an understandable legitimate concern though: how can we trust RGL to rule fairly with a closed-door system?

In my opinion, that’s the discussion that should happen instead of who-dun-it name namecalling threads tend to descend to. In my opinion THIS is the community’s role in the cycle that has gotten lost in the past.
When an community issue happens and RGL gives a ruling, the community and RGL cooperatively work to a system to prevent similar incidents from happening. Sigafoo has described RGLs council system and how AIM’s ban didn’t go through the process so after his response discussion should be about how bans are moved to council discussion and if there is a better way to streamline that process - or even what an accelerated process would look like so that not every appeal has to go through the council. If an issue is really one that could be resolved through simple discussion - then having a way for an obvious situation to not have to go through a lengthy council trial seems ideal.

In any case, there is a small catch-22 here - regardless of how successful the ticket system is - it’s results aren’t made public, while any case on TFTV is; this is an another discussion worth having and another issue to work around.

Air_ why did you ban someone for sending you a trollface on discord when the only recourse anyone else would have had is "If someone is harassing you, just block them" seems like you feel pretty fucking superior using your ban powers when someone is annoying to you

So my gut instinct when first hearing about this situation was that punishment should befit the crime, and that maybe a mute would have sufficed - but things aren’t very cut and dry when you’re an admin. When I did admin for several communities, one of the rules I held myself to was that I couldn’t block anyone, I held my tongue and listened to people I disliked or disagreed with because as an admin I had a responsibility to hear them out. Even if I was being trolled - I had to be gullible just in case there was a legitimate emergency. I’m not saying this what went through sigafoo’s mind, but honestly at the very least it set a precedent - I have to wonder how many other league admins have avoided being harassed as a result of players knowing there are serious repercussions.

I’ve held the ideal admin is one that rarely has to use their powers, it would have been nice if Sigafoo managed to explain how trolling wasn’t appreciated and convince the other party without it escalating, but in any case, I’m not sure any of this has any relevance - taking a look at the wider picture I just want to make it explicitly clear that what Sigafoo says in this thread - he’s not just speaking for himself - he’s speaking officially on behalf of RGL, no matter how much you hate sigafoo, evaluate his words. To attack sigafoo here is literally shooting the messenger.

Air_Surveys / Lan fees

Another discussion worth having: how can RGL do surveys better - be it questions or receiving responses. I’d also like some explanation for the results not being made public - but I can understand why they might not.

Personal vendettas: Instead of just pointing out incidents, perhaps we should suggest methods of having fixed rulings - ie: limit the ways they CAN abuse their power (I’m thinking specifically w/ ringers&restrictions, but I think the issue is expandable)

Lan fees: I think this is legitimate, even if the money ended up getting just thrown into the bin, an explanation should be provided if there hasn’t been one already.

posted about a year ago
#14 CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!! in TF2 General Discussion

Topic: The Mopsy Situation

sigafooIn cases related to verified targeted harassment/doxxing/death threats/etc... Protecting the identity of the victims is important. By default, we do not share the identity or any information that would reveal the identity of the victim. This can lead to further or worse harassment to them by the person in question or by their friends/community, etc... We would only share that verified information, if the victim is okay/agrees with sharing it.

CAP_CREATURE has a good comment about this topic: where he says

CAP_CREATURE rgl is attempting to provide as safe a reporting space as possible ... I understand that not telling people what they did doesn't help them improve their behavior, and I'm not agreeing with it, I'm just saying that I understand the goal of rgl when they do that.

What I want to express is that I think it'd be a mistake to sweep this incident under the rug as "resolved" - I'm not speaking in defense of mopsy, but I think looking at the situation as a whole raises interesting points - Does an accused party have a "right" to their accuser - and if not how to handle if an accused party doesn't know their offense and isn't allowed to know (Is this alright?). This is a discussion not best suited here - but in my opinion one started in a thread by RGL (Which brings me onto the next topic)

Topic: RGL Taking Initiative

sigafooTypically, most threads are made while we're in the middle of the conversation with the affected player or prior to the person reaching out to us.doikuYou people are so unresponsive that you have to are forced to make a post on TFTV in order to get easily solvable issues addressed

I think the interesting point here to me is that there doesn't need to be a discussion over the point that - at least officially - RGL only makes an appearance on TFTV when it comes to putting out fires - responding to criticism and situations getting out of hand.

I'm not great with words, so I'll try to rephrase - My question to Virgil and now Sigfoo is: Does RGL has any considerations/plans for initiating conversation with TFTV instead of playing the reactive role with it/the community.
Taking the above example - I imagine it would look something like starting a thread stating exactly as you have the reasons RGL has the ruling the way it does, acknowledging that perhaps its not perfect and asking the community what they suggest.

Take the most recent announcement by RGL regarding Uber Pauses / their abuse. The situation update is great if not a bit slow - the NOTE of what to if the bug occurs is nice and clearly states RGL stances/punishment... but I disagree with the way how the ruling is tied to "using an illegally gained uber" - this is rife for misinterpretation as you're asking for an admin (or council) judgement on a team/player interpretation mid-game. I would write/make a ruling in a way that even if unfair there wouldn't need to be a judgement call of "um.. are we allowed to use this yet?". (I'd go on, but details on how I would handle it don't belong in this thread).

I have to imagine the pause ruling/update was the result of a round of discussions amongst the admins - and I think it is a mistake to not try to include the community - specifically this community - in those discussions. You don't have to survey what the rule should be, I'm not advocating for the community suddenly being free to determine all the rules as they see fit, but perhaps you can gain insights into potential problems with your options or just obtain potential ideas that a small council might have missed as well as keep your community at least a little informed on what you're "considering" or "having a look at". (We often hear about how rules are "revisited" but don't get to see the discussion that happens, the options being weighed - I think RGL should make an attempt to bridge this gap).

Note: Keep in mind the above were just examples toward a point and suggestion - I know that by talking about such specifics I run the risk of derailing this thread into oblivion, so I'd encourage anyone replying to try to focus on the broad picture and not get lost in the details here.

The Survey Results

We also check our communication every season, we have a question in every end-of-season survey, how did we do with communication?
This last season:
82% of respondents rated their admin as adequate to great
91% of people said it was easy to get a hold of/response from an admin
83% believed that admins usually made reasonable decisions

As a preface, I have never been a fan of the way RGL handles surveys, I think it's too easy to construe or manipulate information - especially unintentionally.
For starters, as far as I can tell (and maybe I'm just piss poor at searching), I can't find the post-season results for S4, S5, or S6 - if there is a question in every post season survey regarding communication, I'd appreciate if someone could give me a hand finding it or compile the information (I'd love you long time) - I'm interested to see what the survey shows about admin satisfaction with the progressing seasons. If its not public, I'd like to know if there is a reason why - but that's probably - again - a discussion for another thread.

Putting the publicity of said survey/my incompetence aside: The Recent HL survey has a bit about division admins which I think is tangentially relevant: https://rgl.gg/Public/Articles/Default.aspx?a=1584&r=24
Of the 183 surveyed HL participants who interacted with an admin - ~51% rated their experience as good or better, while ~49% rated their experience as neutral, bad, or horrible. This is probably an unfair organization - and I don't follow the HL scene or think that their performance is indicative or even relevant regarding 6s, but in the same article and the same question regarding admin decisions: "Did you feel that your division admin generally made reasonable decisions" had ~51% responded with "Yes, but not every decision" or "No, many decisions were unreasonable".

Here's hoping I don't get lynched for talking about HL, but I wasn't able to find better data to work with - the main point/takeaway of this section is really that data & surveys should be talking points, but I rarely see conversations around them - a small pattern I've noticed even just talking with RGL admins is that they quote statistics that I'd never seen - or even have no option of seeing. Even if the information can't be publicly released, I'd like to see RGL look at sectors they're bad at then START a conversation about how to improve.

Math: https://i.imgur.com/aKiVZNU.png

posted about a year ago
#12 CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!! in TF2 General Discussion
Virgiljust trying to fix the problems i mentioned in the original post and mentioned in this one, change is hard cause you have to work for it but i'm doing my best

Hey Virgil, first off I wanted to commend you for doing that thing that RGL has been historically (understandably) hesitant to do - post in TFTV. You’ve also managed to do the somewhat rare thing of having an upfragged post as staff - and I think this is representative of something.

I’m speaking out of my area, but to get an upfraged post from essentially saying “we’re working on it” shows this community’s willingness to believe in you, and I understand there are reasons you can’t say too much - but can you expand a bit on what’s going on? What discussions are taking place - what things you’d like opinions on : I assume one of the reasons you wanted to become staff was to be or help build a bridge to this community right? Is there any chance we can see RGL take initiative in asking TFTV for opinions rather than a weak survey or only showing up to put out fires?

posted about a year ago
#5 CALL OUT!!1! RGL YOUR TRANSPARENCY STILL SUCKS!! in TF2 General Discussion

Hi, simple passerby looking to understand the situation better. Been scrolling through past threads and have noticed the “cycle” you describe - RGL and subsequent staff seem to visit/post on these forums only when absolutely necessary - was curious if you could elaborate as to why you think that might be the case.

You say that “You feel an air of superiority from your choices”, I’m trying to understand why RGL would exclude their community (or at least a portion of it) when it comes to making decisions, it seems unusual to me that a community organization would leave it’s own community so in the dark.

I’m sure the classic reply would be something like “welcome to RGL”, but I wonder if in many cases RGL staff is afraid of the response they’ll get regardless of their explanation, as I don’t think many people will disagree that TFTV is often (sometimes justifiably) quick to grab the pitchforks.

I have two main other thoughts,
For starters while I’m sure it’s only a drop in the bucket compared to other situations, what were the lessons to be learned from those cases you listed?
* In aim’s case, it seems like the rules were both vague (players thought it wouldn’t apply to aim since he wasn’t an organization) and undesirable (Preventing players with unique insights from casting decreases overall quality)
* In ford’s case, it sounds like a rushed decision that either means the council system for determining justification of bans is ineffective at preventing mistakes or that there is too much room for admin interpretation toward this rule.
* In mopsy’s case it sounds like there has been an oversight in the rules that needs and deserves immediate correction.

The other thought I had is that RGL being a community organization, why doesn’t TFTV promote volunteers from within? Has there been precedent for a TFTV regular becoming an RGL admin and then turning radio silent, has there been logic/explain action for this shift in attitude? I’m also curious if RGL staff has ever taken the initiative to reach out to TFTV, asking their opinion and initiating discussion on rules or practices. For some of the complaints about RGL being out of touch with thee community has anyone tried to step up and be that bridge / better connection in the past?

Genuinely asking hoping for genuine responses, I can see a lot of frustration, and for the sake for compTF2 - I hope there still is the possibility for reconciliation.

posted about a year ago
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