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Problem with RGL Policy
1
#1
0 Frags +

Hi. Sorry if this gets ramble-y I'm just miffed.

I ran out of space on the title but really it should be "The Issue with RGL's Probation System and Lack of Admin Transparency".

DISCLAIMER: I'm not calling out the individual admins included in screenshots, they all helped me the best they could and I really do appreciate that. They are simply reflecting greater policy put in place by RGL, which is what I am taking issue with. Furthermore, at one point I reference times RGL admins have said slurs, I'm not doing this to say they are bad people but merely use this in reference to Cember's own conduct.

TL:DR: Cember get's banned for saying "ni" in a scrim, admins tell me this is policy. Other people who appear to have said worse things appear to get lesser punishments. Cember is branded as toxic and problematic despite a lack of evidence for this. Admins won't elaborate and just paint him as a bad boy gamer, despite being a really fine guy. Transparency is needed.

So here's the issue, Cember was recently banned in a scrim (https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198010924969&r=40). A couple things of note here:

1. The ban ends in 2099, and must be appealed after two weeks if Cember wants to continue to play.
2. Cember will constantly have " consistent behavior issues in the past" listed on his profile.

Here is what caused him to be banned (seen in chat here https://logs.tf/2454051#76561198010924969):

PREDICTABO! the ni you fuckin
PREDICTABO! and that other ni you fuckin

He did not explicitly say a slur, but RGL wants to consider the implication of a slur ban worthy then whatever, that's their business.

Here's where the issue arises. Other players who have been banned for saying slurs

https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198087056639
https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198864159383
https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198211313779

Have not been given a probationary period, they were just given a flat two week ban. Furthermore, they were not described as having "consistent behavior problems" in the past. Ok, sure.

Here is an example of a player that WAS on probation and the ban they recieved:

https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198136156676&r=40

They were not described as having problematic behavior in the past, and were only given a flat 2 week ban that did not have to be appealed.

Ok, so this must imply Cember is an incredibly awful n word user who must be punished harsher for just implying a slur, right? Well, about that.

Cember does not have a toxic, problematic history, and has never had an incident that would require being treated like an issue player. I asked the admins multiple times what sort of history warranted Cember being branded as an awful person, here are the main responses I got:

1. https://imgur.com/fDrMqy1
Not much, just got deferred, fair enough.

2. https://imgur.com/oTLdGB2
They WILL NOT tell me, we'll get back to this later.

3. https://imgur.com/BPGHwBb
He hangs out with bad boys. Ok, so this one implies it has NOTHING to do with who he is or how he acts, the ONLY thing that matters is that he plays with Scratchh and Ekh0. If this is the case, then RGL is treating players unfairly, and doesn't actually consider a players actions when handing out punishment. This implies that the teammates you play with is more important than your own actions, which is just kind of bullshit, especially if you have NO history of toxic behavior. Furthermore, consider the fact that his punishment history is "consistent behavior problems", which implies that him hanging out with people is a BEHAVIOR problem, which is just kind of gross tbh. If not that, then the admins are blatantly making something up about his behavior to justify punishing him for the company he keeps. This leads us back to the issue with the second admin response.

They cannot give out context as to why Cember was being treated as a player with behavior problems. This is where the heart of the problem with the RGL Admins lies, the lack of transparency. This is in direct response to me showing them evidence that Cember isn't toxic: https://imgur.com/RpTZpdm

Cember has NO evidence of a problematic history, and when pressed for one, the admins cannot provide one. Either this means
1. The evidence is the 11 times Cember has said slurs in the past. If this is the case, Boxcar, Patrick, and FrickMyNick all need to be on probation as well as they have said slurs an equal to or greater amount of times as Cember. As does everyone who has said slurs 11 or more times. Also, why would you be letting people who have said slurs 64 times be div admins if it's such awful behavior?
2. They have some evidence somewhere that is contrary to everything I found, and what other people know, but are unwilling to let Cember know. This is an issue because it means Cember is unaware of what he has done wrong in the past and cannot fix it, and it means that the admins are being vague about what behaviors are punishable. By not being transparent, it only creates confusion on what is expected. Obviously saying slurs and hate speech is bad, but if I've shown Cember isn't a problem to do anything more than average, what else COULD he be doing that coincides with a ban regarding the usage of slurs?
3. The admins consider hanging out with certain people to be problematic, see above.
4. The admins are lying, and there is no way for them to be held accountable due to lack of transparency.

Both points 1 and 3 point to the big issue: Transparency. In a community run league, the admins need to be held accountable, and the only way this can be done is by transparency with a community. This is a basis of punishment, in the US Court System people have a right to know what they are being accused of, as if not they cannot defend themselves. How is Cember supposed to properly defend himself when he isn't even told what behavior issues he as?

Without transparency, there is little reason to trust that what the admins do is just or right, especially when they wrongfully brand a player who has not had an incident at all since he came onto the competitive scene as toxic player. This leaves too much room for bias against players or teams, and leads to players not being treated fairly. Cember isn't even a member of the Scratchh circle jerk, he literally just plays on a team with them, and because of that he is painted as someone with "consistent behavior problems", and that's just bullshit. A league that cannot be held accountable will never save this dying game.

So yea, that was my TED talk on the problem with RGL using Cember as an example. Thanks for reading.

Hi. Sorry if this gets ramble-y I'm just miffed.

I ran out of space on the title but really it should be "The Issue with RGL's Probation System and Lack of Admin Transparency".

DISCLAIMER: I'm not calling out the individual admins included in screenshots, they all helped me the best they could and I really do appreciate that. They are simply reflecting greater policy put in place by RGL, which is what I am taking issue with. Furthermore, at one point I reference times RGL admins have said slurs, I'm not doing this to say they are bad people but merely use this in reference to Cember's own conduct.

TL:DR: Cember get's banned for saying "ni" in a scrim, admins tell me this is policy. Other people who appear to have said worse things appear to get lesser punishments. Cember is branded as toxic and problematic despite a lack of evidence for this. Admins won't elaborate and just paint him as a bad boy gamer, despite being a really fine guy. Transparency is needed.

So here's the issue, Cember was recently banned in a scrim (https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198010924969&r=40). A couple things of note here:

1. The ban ends in 2099, and must be appealed after two weeks if Cember wants to continue to play.
2. Cember will constantly have " consistent behavior issues in the past" listed on his profile.

Here is what caused him to be banned (seen in chat here https://logs.tf/2454051#76561198010924969):

PREDICTABO! the ni you fuckin
PREDICTABO! and that other ni you fuckin

He did not explicitly say a slur, but RGL wants to consider the implication of a slur ban worthy then whatever, that's their business.

Here's where the issue arises. Other players who have been banned for saying slurs

https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198087056639
https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198864159383
https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198211313779

Have not been given a probationary period, they were just given a flat two week ban. Furthermore, they were not described as having "consistent behavior problems" in the past. Ok, sure.

Here is an example of a player that WAS on probation and the ban they recieved:

https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198136156676&r=40

They were not described as having problematic behavior in the past, and were only given a flat 2 week ban that did not have to be appealed.

Ok, so this must imply Cember is an incredibly awful n word user who must be punished harsher for just implying a slur, right? Well, about that.

Cember does not have a toxic, problematic history, and has never had an incident that would require being treated like an issue player. I asked the admins multiple times what sort of history warranted Cember being branded as an awful person, here are the main responses I got:

1. https://imgur.com/fDrMqy1
Not much, just got deferred, fair enough.

2. https://imgur.com/oTLdGB2
They WILL NOT tell me, we'll get back to this later.

3. https://imgur.com/BPGHwBb
He hangs out with bad boys. Ok, so this one implies it has NOTHING to do with who he is or how he acts, the ONLY thing that matters is that he plays with Scratchh and Ekh0. If this is the case, then RGL is treating players unfairly, and doesn't actually consider a players actions when handing out punishment. This implies that the teammates you play with is more important than your own actions, which is just kind of bullshit, especially if you have NO history of toxic behavior. Furthermore, consider the fact that his punishment history is "consistent behavior problems", which implies that him hanging out with people is a BEHAVIOR problem, which is just kind of gross tbh. If not that, then the admins are blatantly making something up about his behavior to justify punishing him for the company he keeps. This leads us back to the issue with the second admin response.

They cannot give out context as to why Cember was being treated as a player with behavior problems. This is where the heart of the problem with the RGL Admins lies, the lack of transparency. This is in direct response to me showing them evidence that Cember isn't toxic: https://imgur.com/RpTZpdm

Cember has NO evidence of a problematic history, and when pressed for one, the admins cannot provide one. Either this means
1. The evidence is the 11 times Cember has said slurs in the past. If this is the case, Boxcar, Patrick, and FrickMyNick all need to be on probation as well as they have said slurs an equal to or greater amount of times as Cember. As does everyone who has said slurs 11 or more times. Also, why would you be letting people who have said slurs 64 times be div admins if it's such awful behavior?
2. They have some evidence somewhere that is contrary to everything I found, and what other people know, but are unwilling to let Cember know. This is an issue because it means Cember is unaware of what he has done wrong in the past and cannot fix it, and it means that the admins are being vague about what behaviors are punishable. By not being transparent, it only creates confusion on what is expected. Obviously saying slurs and hate speech is bad, but if I've shown Cember isn't a problem to do anything more than average, what else COULD he be doing that coincides with a ban regarding the usage of slurs?
3. The admins consider hanging out with certain people to be problematic, see above.
4. The admins are lying, and there is no way for them to be held accountable due to lack of transparency.

Both points 1 and 3 point to the big issue: Transparency. In a community run league, the admins need to be held accountable, and the only way this can be done is by transparency with a community. This is a basis of punishment, in the US Court System people have a right to know what they are being accused of, as if not they cannot defend themselves. How is Cember supposed to properly defend himself when he isn't even told what behavior issues he as?

Without transparency, there is little reason to trust that what the admins do is just or right, especially when they wrongfully brand a player who has not had an incident at all since he came onto the competitive scene as toxic player. This leaves too much room for bias against players or teams, and leads to players not being treated fairly. Cember isn't even a member of the Scratchh circle jerk, he literally just plays on a team with them, and because of that he is painted as someone with "consistent behavior problems", and that's just bullshit. A league that cannot be held accountable will never save this dying game.

So yea, that was my TED talk on the problem with RGL using Cember as an example. Thanks for reading.
2
#2
36 Frags +
virgil3. The admins consider hanging out with certain people to be problematic, see above.

ok honest to god the last thing i said in the RGL staff discord before my admin role got removed was something like "deal with gxq (lol) as individuals, not as a whole group" and then the massive ban wave happened and then cember gets the ban hammer lmao cool

[quote=virgil]3. The admins consider hanging out with certain people to be problematic, see above.[/quote]

ok honest to god the last thing i said in the RGL staff discord before my admin role got removed was something like "deal with gxq (lol) as individuals, not as a whole group" and then the massive ban wave happened and then cember gets the ban hammer lmao cool
3
#3
-16 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387764227965976579/572231127239098368/keep-calm-and-tbh-stfu-nigga.png

https://www.teamfortress.tv/53568/sigafoo-read-super-important#1

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387764227965976579/572231127239098368/keep-calm-and-tbh-stfu-nigga.png[/img]
https://www.teamfortress.tv/53568/sigafoo-read-super-important#1
4
#4
7 Frags +

.

.
5
#5
47 Frags +

banning by association is a big yikes

banning by association is a big yikes
6
#6
5 Frags +

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e9107138-3b83-4a37-a1c3-bd1995ea77a4_1.00950b0c437d93d239d0f63a5ff90dc9.gif?odnWidth=282&odnHeight=282&odnBg=ffffff

[img]https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/e9107138-3b83-4a37-a1c3-bd1995ea77a4_1.00950b0c437d93d239d0f63a5ff90dc9.gif?odnWidth=282&odnHeight=282&odnBg=ffffff[/img]
7
#7
42 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P144Lt7tkzc

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P144Lt7tkzc[/youtube]
8
#8
24 Frags +

I would like to see a policy change where evidence is provided to the accused. Another situation that could happen with the current policy is fake screenshots could be submitted to RGL to get someone banned, and the banned person would never know. Discord chat logs, steam chat logs, logs.tf chat logs, text messages, etc. can all be faked.

I would like to see a policy change where evidence is provided to the accused. Another situation that could happen with the current policy is fake screenshots could be submitted to RGL to get someone banned, and the banned person would never know. Discord chat logs, steam chat logs, logs.tf chat logs, text messages, etc. can all be faked.
9
#9
27 Frags +
negasora

good work dodging a ban with that youtube title. stay safe

[quote=negasora][/quote]
good work dodging a ban with that youtube title. stay safe
10
#10
52 Frags +

faking discord chat messages (or steam messages) is painfully easy (which is the fake??)

https://puu.sh/F25sq/286c7e9df2.png

https://puu.sh/F25tr/8bfe38d08e.png

faking discord chat messages (or steam messages) is painfully easy (which is the fake??)

[img]https://puu.sh/F25sq/286c7e9df2.png[/img]


[img]https://puu.sh/F25tr/8bfe38d08e.png[/img]
11
#11
9 Frags +

The entire probation system is a ploy to break up any body associated with scratch or the “gxq” circlejerk. Your system does not attempt to foster a positive growth for the community, but rather a culture to ban people for the sake of banning people for something as little as what cember did.

For the sake of how thorough and professional RGL is with their bans, it should be noted that scratch went from being banned for one year to having to just shill out an appeal to be unbanned the following day(s).

The entire probation system is a ploy to break up any body associated with scratch or the “gxq” circlejerk. Your system does not attempt to foster a positive growth for the community, but rather a culture to ban people for the sake of banning people for something as little as what cember did.

For the sake of how thorough and professional RGL is with their bans, it should be noted that scratch went from being banned for one year to having to just shill out an appeal to be unbanned the following day(s).
12
#12
25 Frags +

When they say "we cannot tell you more about this because of our policy", what they're actually saying is "we cannot tell you more because none of us know what the fuck we're doing since we're just community members trying to run a league despite the fact none of us have any experience running any competitive event ever"

Saying he got banned for hanging out with certain people is ridiculous. So just because I hang out with my christian grandparents, are angry atheists going to come to my door and beat the fuck out of me???

When they say "we cannot tell you more about this because of our policy", what they're actually saying is "we cannot tell you more because none of us know what the fuck we're doing since we're just community members trying to run a league despite the fact none of us have any experience running any competitive event ever"

Saying he got banned for hanging out with certain people is ridiculous. So just because I hang out with my christian grandparents, are angry atheists going to come to my door and beat the fuck out of me???
13
#13
payload.tf
-7 Frags +

Guys, remember this is the same league that said this:

sigajewWe, as a policy, never release information that is given to us that could reveal the source

Man I love having admins with no communication. Where's full-time admin tri_ to our rescue?

Guys, remember this is the same league that said this:
[quote=sigajew]We, as a policy, never release information that is given to us that could reveal the source[/quote]

Man I love having admins with no communication. Where's full-time admin tri_ to our rescue?
14
#14
-1 Frags +

class-based guilt, sounds familiar

class-based guilt, sounds familiar
15
#15
-38 Frags +

Friendly reminder to downfrag della fuck della.

Friendly reminder to downfrag della fuck della.
16
#16
34 Frags +
dishsoapFriendly reminder to downfrag della fuck della.

downvote marquis

[quote=dishsoap]Friendly reminder to downfrag della fuck della.[/quote]
downvote marquis
17
#17
-37 Frags +
edindishsoapFriendly reminder to downfrag della fuck della.downvote marquis

Don't care didn't ask plus your first post already downfragged.

[quote=edin][quote=dishsoap]Friendly reminder to downfrag della fuck della.[/quote]
downvote marquis[/quote]
Don't care didn't ask plus your first post already downfragged.
18
#18
-4 Frags +
RazielSo just because I hang out with my christian grandparents, are angry atheists going to come to my door and beat the fuck out of me???

yeah dude watch out i hate those who believe in god

[quote=Raziel]So just because I hang out with my christian grandparents, are angry atheists going to come to my door and beat the fuck out of me???[/quote]
yeah dude watch out i hate those who believe in god
19
#19
-8 Frags +

This is an outrage! BOYCOTT RGL LAN!!!

This is an outrage! BOYCOTT RGL LAN!!!
20
#20
10 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/yv8kkIj.png

[img]https://i.imgur.com/yv8kkIj.png[/img]
21
#21
-6 Frags +

Help! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary!
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.

[i]Help! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary![/i]
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.
22
#22
-12 Frags +
DonDoritoHelp! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary!
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.

You sound naive.

[quote=DonDorito][i]Help! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary![/i]
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.[/quote]
You sound naive.
23
#23
1 Frags +
BeelthazusDonDoritoHelp! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary!
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.
You sound naive.

have some fucking respect you're addressing DonDorito.

[quote=Beelthazus][quote=DonDorito][i]Help! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary![/i]
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.[/quote]
You sound naive.[/quote]

have some fucking respect you're addressing DonDorito.
24
#24
7 Frags +
DonDorito2 cents

yes it is a good thing to eradicate epic gamer words, but the problem is incosistencies in bans and no transparency for said bans. it's been brought up multiple times and you'd know if you read op

[quote=DonDorito]2 cents[/quote]
yes it is a good thing to eradicate epic gamer words, but the problem is incosistencies in bans and no transparency for said bans. it's been brought up multiple times and you'd know if you read op
25
#25
-10 Frags +
Air_BeelthazusDonDoritoHelp! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary!
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.
You sound naive.

have some fucking respect you're addressing DonDorito.

and you are addressing the wizard of wichita

[quote=Air_][quote=Beelthazus][quote=DonDorito][i]Help! I'm so impulsive and can't help myself and remove the N word from my vocabulary![/i]
I don't know Cember and they very well could be a good person but is it really a bad thing if RGL is doing what they can to rid the community of the casual use of racist/hate speech?
As to the argument made of consistency, RGL is only so old, and no one is perfect. To pull logs using the program designed to scan archived logs, those could be messages from years ago, and to say the least, SOMEONE has to be admins to the respective divisions.
Just my 2 cents.[/quote]
You sound naive.[/quote]

have some fucking respect you're addressing DonDorito.[/quote]
[b]and you are addressing the wizard of wichita[/b]
26
#26
23 Frags +

banning someone based on who their friends are is fucking ridiculous

banning someone for fucking around in chat is ridiculous

banning someone for disagreeing or making fun of your opinion should not warrant a fucking thousand year ban

new rgl admins or salt league please

banning someone based on who their friends are is fucking ridiculous

banning someone for fucking around in chat is ridiculous

banning someone for disagreeing or making fun of your opinion should not warrant a fucking thousand year ban

new rgl admins or salt league please
27
#27
16 Frags +

This seems to be a resurfacing problem within the rgl staff, but I can’t help but think it is a small group of admins cracking down on this “policy”, which seems to be a ploy for “whatever offends me or whoever said a mean thing to me in the past gets banned XD”.

Side note: Almost got banned for posting this meme......

This seems to be a resurfacing problem within the rgl staff, but I can’t help but think it is a small group of admins cracking down on this “policy”, which seems to be a ploy for “whatever offends me or whoever said a mean thing to me in the past gets banned XD”.

Side note: Almost got banned for posting [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/post/979735/rgl-ban-wave]this[/url] meme......
28
#28
-2 Frags +

when looking at the slur counter you should use both steamID and steamID64 and add them both together

when looking at the slur counter you should use both steamID and steamID64 and add them both together
29
#29
4 Frags +

idk if "fucking around in chat" is dogwhistling slurs but at least be consistent with your bans and ban literally everyone who's said a slur. RGL's policy of not showing any evidence but having admins that people know are biased only makes actually legit bans seem suspicious

Also I'm literally not even joking but why it's so hard to not say slurs. I've gotten angry plenty of times and I've never started yelling slurs left and right. Do people think it's fine to say slurs or is it an anger issue thing or what?

idk if "fucking around in chat" is dogwhistling slurs but at least be consistent with your bans and ban literally everyone who's said a slur. RGL's policy of not showing any evidence but having admins that people know are biased only makes actually legit bans seem suspicious

Also I'm literally not even joking but why it's so hard to not say slurs. I've gotten angry plenty of times and I've never started yelling slurs left and right. Do people think it's fine to say slurs or is it an anger issue thing or what?
30
#30
5 Frags +

RGL lol

RGL lol
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