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Map Advantage After Upper Bracket
1
#1
0 Frags +

CS got rid of it because it was ass. Can we do the same? Map pick advantage is just so much better.

CS got rid of it because it was ass. Can we do the same? Map pick advantage is just so much better.
2
#2
33 Frags +

it was implemented on popular request of invite players in s1

no team wanted bracket reset grand finals (including froyo, who would benefit from it the most) because they didn't want to potentially have to play a 6+ hour of raw gametime grand finals or split it up over multiple days

it was implemented on popular request of invite players in s1

no team wanted bracket reset grand finals (including froyo, who would benefit from it the most) because they didn't want to potentially have to play a 6+ hour of raw gametime grand finals or split it up over multiple days
3
#3
-2 Frags +

Then why not make grands Bo3 or lessen the half time (or get rid of halves) instead?

Then why not make grands Bo3 or lessen the half time (or get rid of halves) instead?
4
#4
18 Frags +
FactsMachineThen why not make grands Bo3 or lessen the half time (or get rid of halves) instead?

Bo3 grands with no kind of advantage for upper bracket is aids.

Whoever comes from lower bracket has lost a match already because they were in lower bracket. If the upper bracket winner loses a bo3 in grands they would have the same playoffs record as the other team, but would arbitrarily be 2nd instead of playing again to settle the score.

Making halftimes shorter is up to the players. Even if admins put something in the rulebook nobody wants to punish a player for using the restroom or whatever during halftime in grand finals.

Only playing 1 half per map is an option (and would allow for bracket reset to be viable) but its probably not being requested in large by the community or teams in invite playoffs. ESEA played maps out fully for eons so that's what people are used to

[quote=FactsMachine]Then why not make grands Bo3 or lessen the half time (or get rid of halves) instead?[/quote]
Bo3 grands with no kind of advantage for upper bracket is aids.

Whoever comes from lower bracket has lost a match already because they were in lower bracket. If the upper bracket winner loses a bo3 in grands they would have the same playoffs record as the other team, but would arbitrarily be 2nd instead of playing again to settle the score.

Making halftimes shorter is up to the players. Even if admins put something in the rulebook nobody wants to punish a player for using the restroom or whatever during halftime in grand finals.

Only playing 1 half per map is an option (and would allow for bracket reset to be viable) but its probably not being requested in large by the community or teams in invite playoffs. ESEA played maps out fully for eons so that's what people are used to
5
#5
-13 Frags +

Seasons should be single elim

Seasons should be single elim
6
#6
6 Frags +
nablaWhoever comes from lower bracket has lost a match already because they were in lower bracket. If the upper bracket winner loses a bo3 in grands they would have the same playoffs record as the other team, but would arbitrarily be 2nd instead of playing again to settle the score.

yea, the actual most fair option on paper is to have to have (potential) double grand finals, like they do in melee. this doesn't make logistical sense for games where a match can take hours, so map disad is a compromise that's actually generally* more biased to the lower bracket team

Show Content
*this is an interesting example of a niche scenario i found when i was checking that melee still does double grands:
https://liquipedia.net/smash/Smash_Summit/11
mango won both GF games and won the event, but would have lost under the map disad ruleset, since zain went 2-0 up in the first match
[quote=nabla]Whoever comes from lower bracket has lost a match already because they were in lower bracket. If the upper bracket winner loses a bo3 in grands they would have the same playoffs record as the other team, but would arbitrarily be 2nd instead of playing again to settle the score.[/quote]
yea, the actual most fair option on paper is to have to have (potential) double grand finals, like they do in melee. this doesn't make logistical sense for games where a match can take hours, so map disad is a compromise that's actually generally* more biased to the lower bracket team

[spoiler]
*this is an interesting example of a niche scenario i found when i was checking that melee still does double grands:
https://liquipedia.net/smash/Smash_Summit/11
mango won both GF games and won the event, but would have lost under the map disad ruleset, since zain went 2-0 up in the first match
[/spoiler]
7
#7
18 Frags +
brodynablaWhoever comes from lower bracket has lost a match already because they were in lower bracket. If the upper bracket winner loses a bo3 in grands they would have the same playoffs record as the other team, but would arbitrarily be 2nd instead of playing again to settle the score.yea, the actual most fair option on paper is to have to have (potential) double grand finals, like they do in melee. this doesn't make logistical sense for games where a match can take hours, so map disad is a compromise that's actually generally* more biased to the lower bracket team
Show Content
*this is an interesting example of a niche scenario i found when i was checking that melee still does double grands:
https://liquipedia.net/smash/Smash_Summit/11
mango won both GF games and won the event, but would have lost under the map disad ruleset, since zain went 2-0 up in the first match

na used to have bracket reset format, which is obviously the most fair

however in an online situation where people play week nights it's even more unfeasible than bo5 1 map adv
6 maps could very reasonably go for 7 hours, esea s24 is probably the reason why most people wanted something different, which went on even later than this season's grand finals did

honestly playoffs would probably be way more hype if it all happened in one weekend, similar to how the old esea lans did, and that would solve the issue altogether cause you could start grands at like 2pm or something but I don't that would ever happen because I doubt the majority of players want something like that

[quote=brody][quote=nabla]Whoever comes from lower bracket has lost a match already because they were in lower bracket. If the upper bracket winner loses a bo3 in grands they would have the same playoffs record as the other team, but would arbitrarily be 2nd instead of playing again to settle the score.[/quote]
yea, the actual most fair option on paper is to have to have (potential) double grand finals, like they do in melee. this doesn't make logistical sense for games where a match can take hours, so map disad is a compromise that's actually generally* more biased to the lower bracket team

[spoiler]
*this is an interesting example of a niche scenario i found when i was checking that melee still does double grands:
https://liquipedia.net/smash/Smash_Summit/11
mango won both GF games and won the event, but would have lost under the map disad ruleset, since zain went 2-0 up in the first match
[/spoiler][/quote]

na used to have bracket reset format, which is obviously the most fair

however in an online situation where people play week nights it's even more unfeasible than bo5 1 map adv
6 maps could very reasonably go for 7 hours, esea s24 is probably the reason why most people wanted something different, which went on even later than this season's grand finals did

honestly playoffs would probably be way more hype if it all happened in one weekend, similar to how the old esea lans did, and that would solve the issue altogether cause you could start grands at like 2pm or something but I don't that would ever happen because I doubt the majority of players want something like that
8
#8
30 Frags +

If we simply used the ruleset of 30 minute maps, we can achieve both a BO5 grand finals and give the upper bracket team a map pick/ban advantage. In fact, if you started a BO5 at 11:00 EST, had each map go the full 30 minutes, and then had 15 minutes break between each map everything would be finished by 2:30 AM. That's an hour and a half faster than what we had yesterday by the way.

Coincidentally, now would be a good time to mention that the most recent RGL survey has a question regarding halftime / ruleset. Get on it.

If we simply used the ruleset of 30 minute maps, we can achieve both a BO5 grand finals and give the upper bracket team a map pick/ban advantage. In fact, if you started a BO5 at 11:00 EST, had each map go the full 30 minutes, and then had 15 minutes break between [i]each[/i] map everything would be finished by 2:30 AM. That's an hour and a half faster than what we had yesterday by the way.

Coincidentally, now would be a good time to mention that the most recent RGL survey has a question regarding halftime / ruleset. Get on it.
9
#9
8 Frags +

NO MORE HALFTIMES GIVE US 30 MINUTE MAPS (BASED) 2K21
TWO MAPS A WEEK COULD BE POSSIBLE - A NEW WORLD. NO MORE GRINDING METALWORKS FOR AN ENTIRE WEEK YEESSSIIIIIIIR

NO MORE HALFTIMES GIVE US 30 MINUTE MAPS (BASED) 2K21
TWO MAPS A WEEK COULD BE POSSIBLE - A NEW WORLD. NO MORE GRINDING METALWORKS FOR AN ENTIRE WEEK YEESSSIIIIIIIR
10
#10
33 Frags +

It's amazing how almost the entire world uses a system that works, yet NA goes "wow this sucks, but apparently this problem is unsolvable".

Using halves for symmetric maps because CS has to for asymmetric maps is some major stockholm syndrome from playing in a CS league.

Guys, ESEA can't hurt you anymore. If you think 1 hour per map sucks then do something about it.

It's amazing how almost the entire world uses a system that works, yet NA goes "wow this sucks, but apparently this problem is unsolvable".

Using halves for symmetric maps because CS has to for asymmetric maps is some major stockholm syndrome from playing in a CS league.

Guys, ESEA can't hurt you anymore. If you think 1 hour per map sucks then [i]do something about it[/i].
11
#11
-3 Frags +
SetsulIt's amazing how almost the entire world uses a system that works, yet NA goes "wow this sucks, but apparently this problem is unsolvable".

Using halves for symmetric maps because CS has to for asymmetric maps is some major stockholm syndrome from playing in a CS league.

Most of the really close and fun matches of tf2 I’ve ever played have only been so great because of the NA ruleset. The purely time limit based EU system makes for more a more predictable duration, but it prevents lots of opportunities for resets and comebacks.

I would also not say that halftimes are purely used because of ESEA as well. They’re a really interesting feature of game design that are used in most real sports—they enable teams to reset and change their pace and mentality, and thus create opportunities for comebacks and reward teams with resolve, longevity, and adaptability. In a game with no tactical timeouts, no coaches, and mostly played in BO1 format, they’re a welcome tactical facilitator.

[quote=Setsul]It's amazing how almost the entire world uses a system that works, yet NA goes "wow this sucks, but apparently this problem is unsolvable".

Using halves for symmetric maps because CS has to for asymmetric maps is some major stockholm syndrome from playing in a CS league.[/quote]

Most of the really close and fun matches of tf2 I’ve ever played have only been so great because of the NA ruleset. The purely time limit based EU system makes for more a more predictable duration, but it prevents lots of opportunities for resets and comebacks.

I would also not say that halftimes are purely used because of ESEA as well. They’re a really interesting feature of game design that are used in most real sports—they enable teams to reset and change their pace and mentality, and thus create opportunities for comebacks and reward teams with resolve, longevity, and adaptability. In a game with no tactical timeouts, no coaches, and mostly played in BO1 format, they’re a welcome tactical facilitator.
12
#12
19 Frags +

Have you considered that you've simply played most tf2 matches under the NA ruleset, period?
Because the greatest comebacks I've seen and the best matches I've played were under the "rest of the world" ruleset. Which is not all that surprising, considering literally everyone uses it with only one exception.

Please no "real sports do it this way" arguments.

There was literally a tactical pause in the game that caused this thread.

The entire world (except NA) plays Bo2 (or more for playoffs). But yes, let's hope a team makes a comeback after we give them 5 minutes and a different colour. That seems much more likely to help than giving them a chance on a different map.
You have a regular season match on literally the one single map they're better than you? Don't curse luck of the draw, don't consider how much better this match would've gone for you if there were two maps, just use the halftime break to reset and change your pace and mentality, I'm sure that'll fix everything.

EDIT: Calling timelimit 30, windifference 5 "purely time limit based" right after a match played with the NA system where the only 5cp map went to time limit draws in both halves is pretty interesting.

Have you considered that you've simply played most tf2 matches under the NA ruleset, period?
Because the greatest comebacks I've seen and the best matches I've played were under the "rest of the world" ruleset. Which is not all that surprising, considering literally everyone uses it with only one exception.

Please no "real sports do it this way" arguments.

There was literally a tactical pause in the game that caused this thread.

The entire world (except NA) plays Bo2 (or more for playoffs). But yes, let's hope a team makes a comeback after we give them 5 minutes and a different colour. That seems much more likely to help than giving them a chance on a different map.
You have a regular season match on literally the one single map they're better than you? Don't curse luck of the draw, don't consider how much better this match would've gone for you if there were two maps, just use the halftime break to reset and change your pace and mentality, I'm sure that'll fix everything.

EDIT: Calling timelimit 30, windifference 5 "purely time limit based" right after a match played with the NA system where the only 5cp map went to time limit draws in both halves is pretty interesting.
13
#13
54 Frags +

I've played both and both formats have their flaws. 5CP is just a hard gamemode to find a good win criteria for that accounts for both pacing for spectators and time spent playing for players and spectators alike. And using the two best teams playing each as justification for either as if that will be the average player's experience is just silly. I used to much prefer the NA method, because games that end upon reaching a score will always be better than "see how many times you can score within x time." Aside from situations where you're rolling (reaching 5 before the other team) or getting rolled, you run the risk of garbage time, which is even more boring for spectators than players. And technically-not-garbage-time can easily turn into garbage time after taking highly inadvisable pushes in order to equalize the score. This is also a contentious topic in real sports - the NBA is awful during the regular season because so many games end before the 4 quarters are actually over. It's not a surprise most esports develop game modes where the best format is "first to reach x wins."

I think the blame can be placed on the gamemode (and subsequently the scoring format) for having to settle for a format that ends via time limit instead of score a good % of the time. It's so boring to end a game with time, just *knowing* you've won the game and running around in circles. We were up like 4-2 or 4-1 or something on snakewater at one of the iseries and I just ran around in circles with my bat out, telling my team to shut up and stop talking about the actual map we were playing because it was literally impossible to lose as we sat outside their last with 5 minutes left in the game. I think that might have even been caught on team comms and people thought I was just bming but I really just wanted to talk about the next map.

The biggest downside of the NA format is time spent playing, which is a problem for spectators. I agree that the World Ruleset should probably be used for that reason alone, namely time management. But also, it could also be, IDK, starting the grand finals at like 11 EST.

I'm aware that NA format can also end via time limit and that's the absolute worst case scenario and sucks because you spent all that time trying to force a score limit and it was still too hard for these stupid teams to have a good last push. But ehhh? Game mode issue? Map design issue? Who knows. The NA format is only good if it's expected you'll reach 5 within the hour, which in my time playing was pretty common, but sometimes you get unlucky. It felt often that 30 minutes was too short to reach 5 if the teams were somewhat even and IMO the hour long blockbuster event that ended 5-4 50 minutes into the game was really hype. It's not that different at all in time commitment to any of the esport events around the world. Except Overwatch that just speedruns its competitive format for whatever reason. So again, potentially the issue can lie with starting a GF event on a weekend at 11 EST. *I just remembered this was on Thursday, right? IDR. Either way it should probably take place on a Saturday.

I also think half-time is pretty good. You can actually change the course of the game after a good talk and strategy recap during half-time, which I have personally experienced many times before. Maybe you haven't experienced that because you are similarly biased to the World Ruleset and haven't played enough of the NA format. Sorry, just being annoying. Anyway, 5CP sucks. Play gravelpit or something.

I've played both and both formats have their flaws. 5CP is just a hard gamemode to find a good win criteria for that accounts for both pacing for spectators and time spent playing for players and spectators alike. And using the two best teams playing each as justification for either as if that will be the average player's experience is just silly. I used to much prefer the NA method, because games that end upon reaching a score will always be better than "see how many times you can score within x time." Aside from situations where you're rolling (reaching 5 before the other team) or getting rolled, you run the risk of garbage time, which is even more boring for spectators than players. And technically-not-garbage-time can easily turn into garbage time after taking highly inadvisable pushes in order to equalize the score. This is also a contentious topic in real sports - the NBA is awful during the regular season because so many games end before the 4 quarters are actually over. It's not a surprise most esports develop game modes where the best format is "first to reach x wins."

I think the blame can be placed on the gamemode (and subsequently the scoring format) for having to settle for a format that ends via time limit instead of score a good % of the time. It's so boring to end a game with time, just *knowing* you've won the game and running around in circles. We were up like 4-2 or 4-1 or something on snakewater at one of the iseries and I just ran around in circles with my bat out, telling my team to shut up and stop talking about the actual map we were playing because it was literally impossible to lose as we sat outside their last with 5 minutes left in the game. I think that might have even been caught on team comms and people thought I was just bming but I really just wanted to talk about the next map.

The biggest downside of the NA format is time spent playing, which is a problem for spectators. I agree that the World Ruleset should probably be used for that reason alone, namely time management. But also, it could also be, IDK, starting the grand finals at like 11 EST.

I'm aware that NA format can also end via time limit and that's the absolute worst case scenario and sucks because you spent all that time trying to force a score limit and it was still too hard for these stupid teams to have a good last push. But ehhh? Game mode issue? Map design issue? Who knows. The NA format is only good if it's expected you'll reach 5 within the hour, which in my time playing was pretty common, but sometimes you get unlucky. It felt often that 30 minutes was too short to reach 5 if the teams were somewhat even and IMO the hour long blockbuster event that ended 5-4 50 minutes into the game was really hype. It's not that different at all in time commitment to any of the esport events around the world. Except Overwatch that just speedruns its competitive format for whatever reason. So again, potentially the issue can lie with starting a GF event on a weekend at 11 EST. *I just remembered this was on Thursday, right? IDR. Either way it should probably take place on a Saturday.

I also think half-time is pretty good. You can actually change the course of the game after a good talk and strategy recap during half-time, which I have personally experienced many times before. Maybe you haven't experienced that because you are similarly biased to the World Ruleset and haven't played enough of the NA format. Sorry, just being annoying. Anyway, 5CP sucks. Play gravelpit or something.
14
#14
0 Frags +

I've played both NA format in RGL and rest of world rulesets in cups and in my shitter open player opinion the two rulesets are basically a wash normally but NA is way more enjoyable for elimination games. The rest of world ruleset makes parking the bus for a dub way too easy to pull off, which becomes a bigger issue in an elimination game. Parking the bus with map control is far and away the single biggest flaw with 5cp so I would personally take the format that makes that a little harder to pull off over the format that makes it a little easier.

Both rulesets are fine, I don't see any reason not to keep doing our own thing in NA. We should be talking abount engineer class limit zero not half time.

I've played both NA format in RGL and rest of world rulesets in cups and in my shitter open player opinion the two rulesets are basically a wash normally but NA is way more enjoyable for elimination games. The rest of world ruleset makes parking the bus for a dub way too easy to pull off, which becomes a bigger issue in an elimination game. Parking the bus with map control is far and away the single biggest flaw with 5cp so I would personally take the format that makes that a little harder to pull off over the format that makes it a little easier.


Both rulesets are fine, I don't see any reason not to keep doing our own thing in NA. We should be talking abount engineer class limit zero not half time.
15
#15
6 Frags +

I must just be dumb but isn't the EU ruleset basically what we use for scrims and pugs anyways?

I must just be dumb but isn't the EU ruleset basically what we use for scrims and pugs anyways?
16
#16
-8 Frags +

Yes, it is the ruleset everyone uses for everything, not just EU, including NA for everything except officials. NA officials are to sole bastion of the "NA ruleset", which isn't used half the time in NA, while the "EU ruleset" is used everywhere that isn't NA, not just EU, and in NA as long as it's not an official.

Yes, it is the ruleset everyone uses for everything, not just EU, including NA for everything except officials. NA officials are to sole bastion of the "NA ruleset", which isn't used half the time in NA, while the "EU ruleset" is used everywhere that isn't NA, not just EU, and in NA as long as it's not an official.
17
#17
25 Frags +

personally I care way more that the entire world of tf2 uses the 30 minute ruleset than any rationalization of why one would be better than the other

tf2 is blowing up all over the world

personally I care way more that the [b]entire world of tf2[/b] uses the 30 minute ruleset than any rationalization of why one would be better than the other

tf2 is blowing up all over the world
18
#18
10 Frags +

I would really really miss halftime if the rule set changed. But I supposed tac pauses wouldn’t go anywhere so 30 minutes matches wouldn’t be so much different, if you just paused to talk with your team half way thru.

I would really really miss halftime if the rule set changed. But I supposed tac pauses wouldn’t go anywhere so 30 minutes matches wouldn’t be so much different, if you just paused to talk with your team half way thru.
19
#19
40 Frags +

why can't we just do playoffs all on one weekend and treat it like a lan? that way these teams don't have to scramble to find shitty pugscrims to practice against for a week. and idk start it at like 5pm. some people have bedtimes and 401ks to worry about.
laz just bought a house bro don't make him stay up till 4am

why can't we just do playoffs all on one weekend and treat it like a lan? that way these teams don't have to scramble to find shitty pugscrims to practice against for a week. and idk start it at like 5pm. some people have bedtimes and 401ks to worry about.
laz just bought a house bro don't make him stay up till 4am
20
#20
10 Frags +
clckwrkAnyway, 5CP sucks. Play gravelpit or something.

the man has spoken.

bring back gravelpit 2021

[quote=clckwrk]Anyway, 5CP sucks. Play gravelpit or something.[/quote]

the man has spoken.

bring back gravelpit 2021
21
#21
-1 Frags +
highfivewhy can't we just do playoffs all on one weekend and treat it like a lan? that way these teams don't have to scramble to find shitty pugscrims to practice against for a week. and idk start it at like 5pm. some people have bedtimes and 401ks to worry about.
laz just bought a house bro don't make him stay up till 4am

Too bad TF2 isn't heavily salaried like other esport titles :(

[quote=highfive]why can't we just do playoffs all on one weekend and treat it like a lan? that way these teams don't have to scramble to find shitty pugscrims to practice against for a week. and idk start it at like 5pm. some people have bedtimes and 401ks to worry about.
laz just bought a house bro don't make him stay up till 4am[/quote]

Too bad TF2 isn't heavily salaried like other esport titles :(
22
#22
12 Frags +

I'll not to write a thesis here, but I've talked about the rulesets as far back as 2014. But it boils down to rounds mattering more, forcing aggression, and the aforementioned time management aspect.

It's not like we don't already use this ruleset in scrims, events / cups, and community LANs. And it's also not like teams don't already park the bus or play slow in scrims let alone matches let alone playoff matches No playtesting is required, unlike other things we've thought about in the past like tether speed removal, shortened round timer, etc. .

You could play playoffs earlier under the NA ruleset, but that just means you either have less scrim time or scrim earlier, neither of which are very appealing options. Does it really make a difference if you finish at 3AM or 4AM? As for the whole playoffs on weekends thing, I imagine that top Invite players don't want to spend an entire week scrimming and then play on the weekend after that. Not without LAN. We haven't had an Invite LAN in over six years by the way.

Yes, halftime is good but their role can be entirely replaced by tac pauses, something I think doesn't get utilized nearly enough (nowadays or ever). Give each team a five minute tac pause that they can use to assess the situation / make gameplan changes. I guess halftimes on KOTH maps would be fine, though I don't really understand why we play to four to begin with. Having first to two halftime for KOTH is fine, but I think I'd rather play to three without them. And pauses can still be used on KOTH, too.

It's time to move on from the old ruleset. We had it because of ESEA. We had lots of things because of ESEA. But now we have more freedom, and we should take advantage of it.

Show Content
30 minute maps with 3-5 minute round timer is fucking sexy.
I'll not to write a thesis here, but I've talked about the rulesets as far back as [url=https://www.teamfortress.tv/18949/ruleset-discussion]2014[/url]. But it boils down to rounds mattering more, forcing aggression, and the aforementioned time management aspect.

It's not like we don't already use this ruleset in scrims, events / cups, and community LANs. And it's also not like teams don't already park the bus or play slow in scrims let alone matches let alone playoff matches No playtesting is required, unlike other things we've thought about in the past like tether speed removal, shortened round timer, etc. .

You could play playoffs earlier under the NA ruleset, but that just means you either have less scrim time or scrim earlier, neither of which are very appealing options. Does it really make a difference if you finish at 3AM or 4AM? As for the whole playoffs on weekends thing, I imagine that top Invite players don't want to spend an entire week scrimming and then play on the weekend after that. Not without LAN. We haven't had an Invite LAN in [url=https://liquipedia.net/teamfortress/ESEA/Season_18/Invite/North_America]over six years[/url] by the way.

Yes, halftime is good but their role can be entirely replaced by tac pauses, something I think doesn't get utilized nearly enough (nowadays or ever). Give each team a five minute tac pause that they can use to assess the situation / make gameplan changes. I guess halftimes on KOTH maps would be fine, though I don't really understand why we play to four to begin with. Having first to two halftime for KOTH is fine, but I think I'd rather play to three without them. And pauses can still be used on KOTH, too.

It's time to move on from the old ruleset. We had it because of ESEA. We had lots of things because of ESEA. But now we have more freedom, and we should take advantage of it.

[spoiler]30 minute maps with 3-5 minute round timer is fucking sexy.[/spoiler]
23
#23
20 Frags +

I think shortened round timer makes everything much better. But at the end of the day you always want to win the game by capping the point, i.e., reaching the score limit. It's the best for the players, who feel they actively won the game by capping the point, and best for the spectators, who always have a goal in mind that feels achievable by both teams. I don't disagree about tac pauses. IMO though 5cp has to change drastically re: round timer to make 30-minute long games worth it.

As far as the other stuff goes, it would really boggle my mind if teams refused to play the series earlier on a weekend because of "lack of scrim time," as if they couldn't make up for lost time on that day by scrimming more rigorously earlier in the week. At a certain point you have to dedicate some of your social life to TF2 if you're one of the top 4 teams in the game. They wouldn't wanna scrim the whole week and then play playoffs that weekend? Do they like the game? It always amazes me how different TF2 is to the more popular esports. Obviously more money is involved, but even when the stakes are so high, teams in Valorant will spend an entire weekend playing qualifier tournament, starting at something like noon or 2 CST. In Overwatch, we'd have early games in OWL and have to wake up in the morning to squeeze in a *barely* helpful scrim with another team who had a similar schedule just to prepare for our match that day. And none of that is even being suggested. Instead, it would just be more helpful to start playoffs earlier in the day, even if that meant 5:30 PST. You have to make some sacrifices if you want more people to watch the games.

Of course, all of this is null and void if people are working schedules in which weekends aren't always free for them. That's certainly possible and even likely. If that's the reason teams struggle to find times to play each other at accommodating times, then so be it. But if it's because you don't want to play *too much* TF2, then wtf? Why are you even playing the game in the first place?

I think work-permitting, online playoffs like botmode suggested would be way better for the future of the game. Tournament weekends are all the rage and it makes sense why that's the case. Also this forum sucks. There should probably be match threads created a la r/nba when any team in RGL-invite is playing each other in the actual forum discussion sub. Create some threads people have even an iota of a chance of posting in. I've gone on this forum during playoffs and struggled to find which teams are playing. And when one team wins (usually froyotech), I have no idea and just have to assume banny won again. No one cares. Maybe you guys should start caring? Even if they win, have a match thread where everyone can talk about the game while it's being played and post their thoughts afterwards. The only reason anyone is even having substantive discussion around the game right now is because banny finally lost. And btw, still just a "match" thread within the matches sidebar that no one talks in. I could only see what people are saying by checking a bumped thread from the last time he lost (which at the time I was surprised to even see tbh) within the general discussion subforum.

Assuming you guys want more people to watch, to play, challenge each other and banny, you need to create more avenues for people to consume pro TF2 content. A lot of that comes down to more accommodating scheduling, but also just a way for people to actually discussion the game and the matches being played.

I think shortened round timer makes everything much better. But at the end of the day you always want to win the game by capping the point, i.e., reaching the score limit. It's the best for the players, who feel they actively won the game by capping the point, and best for the spectators, who always have a goal in mind that feels achievable by both teams. I don't disagree about tac pauses. IMO though 5cp has to change drastically re: round timer to make 30-minute long games worth it.

As far as the other stuff goes, it would really boggle my mind if teams refused to play the series earlier on a weekend because of "lack of scrim time," as if they couldn't make up for lost time on that day by scrimming more rigorously earlier in the week. At a certain point you have to dedicate some of your social life to TF2 if you're one of the top 4 teams in the game. They wouldn't wanna scrim the whole week and then play playoffs that weekend? Do they like the game? It always amazes me how different TF2 is to the more popular esports. Obviously more money is involved, but even when the stakes are so high, teams in Valorant will spend an entire weekend playing qualifier tournament, starting at something like noon or 2 CST. In Overwatch, we'd have early games in OWL and have to wake up in the morning to squeeze in a *barely* helpful scrim with another team who had a similar schedule just to prepare for our match that day. And none of that is even being suggested. Instead, it would just be more helpful to start playoffs earlier in the day, even if that meant 5:30 PST. You have to make some sacrifices if you want more people to watch the games.

Of course, all of this is null and void if people are working schedules in which weekends aren't always free for them. That's certainly possible and even likely. If that's the reason teams struggle to find times to play each other at accommodating times, then so be it. But if it's because you don't want to play *too much* TF2, then wtf? Why are you even playing the game in the first place?

I think work-permitting, online playoffs like botmode suggested would be way better for the future of the game. Tournament weekends are all the rage and it makes sense why that's the case. Also this forum sucks. There should probably be match threads created a la r/nba when any team in RGL-invite is playing each other in the actual forum discussion sub. Create some threads people have even an iota of a chance of posting in. I've gone on this forum during playoffs and struggled to find which teams are playing. And when one team wins (usually froyotech), I have no idea and just have to assume banny won again. No one cares. Maybe you guys should start caring? Even if they win, have a match thread where everyone can talk about the game while it's being played and post their thoughts afterwards. The only reason anyone is even having substantive discussion around the game right now is because banny finally lost. And btw, still just a "match" thread within the matches sidebar that no one talks in. I could only see what people are saying by checking a bumped thread from the last time he lost (which at the time I was surprised to even see tbh) within the general discussion subforum.

Assuming you guys want more people to watch, to play, challenge each other and banny, you need to create more avenues for people to consume pro TF2 content. A lot of that comes down to more accommodating scheduling, but also just a way for people to actually discussion the game and the matches being played.
24
#24
-7 Frags +

I don't think a lower round timer would lead to more teams actually capping last. Last doesn't become easier to cap just because there's less time.

Best case it reduces the amount of dead time by causing round timer draws earlier, worst case it cuts off even more pushes that would've been successful and leads to even more dead time because some teams now wait for a free risk-free push where they don't have to worry about keeping their medic (or anyone) alive if it fails.

There's also a major difference between making a living off of playing competitive video games and not.
Weekdays are different than the weekend. Just because they are willing to dedicate some of their social life to TF2 doesn't mean they are willing to dedicate all of it. "Do they even like the game if they won't dedicate all their free time for a whole week to one match" is frankly insulting. Sure, you're going to do that if that's your job, but it's pointless to compare the two. "If other people do this while being paid then you should do at least this fraction of it for free" is never a good argument.
And no, the comparison with weekend tournaments doesn't work either. For those you invest just that weekend, for a whole league season you spend weeks of mostly weekdays. Then tacking on a weekend as well that some people can't play on is something completely different.

It worked with LAN because LAN was the social event, it didn't take away time from anything.

I don't think a lower round timer would lead to more teams actually capping last. Last doesn't become easier to cap just because there's less time.

Best case it reduces the amount of dead time by causing round timer draws earlier, worst case it cuts off even more pushes that would've been successful and leads to even more dead time because some teams now wait for a free risk-free push where they don't have to worry about keeping their medic (or anyone) alive if it fails.


There's also a major difference between making a living off of playing competitive video games and not.
Weekdays are different than the weekend. Just because they are willing to dedicate some of their social life to TF2 doesn't mean they are willing to dedicate all of it. "Do they even like the game if they won't dedicate all their free time for a whole week to one match" is frankly insulting. Sure, you're going to do that if that's your job, but it's pointless to compare the two. "If other people do this while being paid then you should do at least this fraction of it for free" is never a good argument.
And no, the comparison with weekend tournaments doesn't work either. For those you invest just that weekend, for a whole league season you spend weeks of mostly weekdays. Then tacking on a weekend as well that some people can't play on is something completely different.

It worked with LAN because LAN [i]was[/i] the social event, it didn't take away time from anything.
25
#25
25 Frags +
SetsulThere's also a major difference between making a living off of playing competitive video games and not.
Weekdays are different than the weekend. Just because they are willing to dedicate some of their social life to TF2 doesn't mean they are willing to dedicate all of it. "Do they even like the game if they won't dedicate all their free time for a whole week to one match" is frankly insulting. Sure, you're going to do that if that's your job, but it's pointless to compare the two. "If other people do this while being paid then you should do at least this fraction of it for free" is never a good argument.
And no, the comparison with weekend tournaments doesn't work either. For those you invest just that weekend, for a whole league season you spend weeks of mostly weekdays. Then tacking on a weekend as well that some people can't play on is something completely different.

It worked with LAN because LAN was the social event, it didn't take away time from anything.

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about a playoffs match being played on the weekend. And in the best case, all playoffs matches being played during this weekend. If for one weekend out of the season, they play the scrims they'd normally play during the week, then spend their weekend playing their playoffs games to determine who wins the season, how is that a huge time commitment? This post is so exaggerated it's making me question if I have 0 reading comprehension. ALL of their social lives (for one weekend playing a game they love to play)? That's insulting? It's insulting to think that for the good of the game I would heartlessly suggest that invite players spend one weekend or... a few weekend days... playing the game they've played for a decade... I'm completely fine with the idea of working on a weekend preventing this from happening as I've already said, but social lives? It's one week and TF2 IS A SOCIAL GAME. You're playing with your team, who you have spent the season or many season playing with, to try to cement yourself as the best team that season.

I think for those who don't suffer from debilitating extroversion, this would probably be okay. A lot of people spent an entire year not going to LANs, seeing friends, going to bars, whatever. And those things are still up in the air for the foreseeable future. I think one weekend 3 months from now where they have to *gasp* scrim the entire week like they normally would but then play some playoffs matches that weekend instead of the offclass pugs they'd play would be completely fine, work-permitting. Maybe I've completely missed the mark here though and I heavily underestimate their dedicated commitment to their social lives.

EDIT: I'd really like to apologize for insulting these players by assuming they had the option of curbing their busy social lives for this meaningless event. If it were LAN? Now that's a different story. But I now realize that I was overvaluing TF2 and undervaluing their social lives for these 1-2 weekends. I've now come to the conclusion that absolutely any social event (or any other video game) takes precedence over the invite TF2 playoffs. Please disregard anything suggested in this post. I realize that all those weekends I'd voluntarily play TF2 when I was in invite just exposes me as being a loser and for players with a friend, every other weekend is absolutely booked by [any social event] for these players to pay TF2 any attention.

[quote=Setsul]
There's also a major difference between making a living off of playing competitive video games and not.
Weekdays are different than the weekend. Just because they are willing to dedicate some of their social life to TF2 doesn't mean they are willing to dedicate all of it. "Do they even like the game if they won't dedicate all their free time for a whole week to one match" is frankly insulting. Sure, you're going to do that if that's your job, but it's pointless to compare the two. "If other people do this while being paid then you should do at least this fraction of it for free" is never a good argument.
And no, the comparison with weekend tournaments doesn't work either. For those you invest just that weekend, for a whole league season you spend weeks of mostly weekdays. Then tacking on a weekend as well that some people can't play on is something completely different.

It worked with LAN because LAN [i]was[/i] the social event, it didn't take away time from anything.[/quote]

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about a playoffs match being played on the weekend. And in the best case, all playoffs matches being played during this weekend. If for one weekend out of the season, they play the scrims they'd normally play during the week, then spend their weekend playing their playoffs games to determine who wins the season, how is that a huge time commitment? This post is so exaggerated it's making me question if I have 0 reading comprehension. ALL of their social lives (for one weekend playing a game they love to play)? That's insulting? It's insulting to think that for the good of the game I would heartlessly suggest that invite players spend one weekend or... a few weekend days... playing the game they've played for a decade... I'm completely fine with the idea of working on a weekend preventing this from happening as I've already said, but social lives? It's one week and TF2 IS A SOCIAL GAME. You're playing with your team, who you have spent the season or many season playing with, to try to cement yourself as the best team that season.

I think for those who don't suffer from debilitating extroversion, this would probably be okay. A lot of people spent an entire year not going to LANs, seeing friends, going to bars, whatever. And those things are still up in the air for the foreseeable future. I think one weekend 3 months from now where they have to *gasp* scrim the entire week like they normally would but then play some playoffs matches that weekend instead of the offclass pugs they'd play would be completely fine, work-permitting. Maybe I've completely missed the mark here though and I heavily underestimate their dedicated commitment to their social lives.

EDIT: I'd really like to apologize for [B]insulting[/B] these players by assuming they had the option of curbing their busy social lives for this meaningless event. If it were LAN? Now that's a different story. But I now realize that I was overvaluing TF2 and undervaluing their social lives for these 1-2 weekends. I've now come to the conclusion that absolutely any social event (or any other video game) takes precedence over the invite TF2 playoffs. Please disregard anything suggested in this post. I realize that all those weekends I'd voluntarily play TF2 when I was in invite just exposes me as being [B]a loser[/B] and for players with a friend, every other weekend is absolutely booked by [any social event] for these players to pay TF2 any attention.
26
#26
-11 Frags +
clckwrkSetsulThere's also a major difference between making a living off of playing competitive video games and not.
Weekdays are different than the weekend. Just because they are willing to dedicate some of their social life to TF2 doesn't mean they are willing to dedicate all of it. "Do they even like the game if they won't dedicate all their free time for a whole week to one match" is frankly insulting. Sure, you're going to do that if that's your job, but it's pointless to compare the two. "If other people do this while being paid then you should do at least this fraction of it for free" is never a good argument.
And no, the comparison with weekend tournaments doesn't work either. For those you invest just that weekend, for a whole league season you spend weeks of mostly weekdays. Then tacking on a weekend as well that some people can't play on is something completely different.

It worked with LAN because LAN was the social event, it didn't take away time from anything.

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about a playoffs match being played on the weekend. And in the best case, all playoffs matches being played during this weekend. If for one weekend out of the season, they play the scrims they'd normally play during the week, then spend their weekend playing their playoffs games to determine who wins the season, how is that a huge time commitment? This post is so exaggerated it's making me question if I have 0 reading comprehension. ALL of their social lives (for one weekend playing a game they love to play)? That's insulting? It's insulting to think that for the good of the game I would heartlessly suggest that invite players spend one weekend or... a few weekend days... playing the game they've played for a decade... I'm completely fine with the idea of working on a weekend preventing this from happening as I've already said, but social lives? It's one week and TF2 IS A SOCIAL GAME. You're playing with your team, who you have spent the season or many season playing with, to try to cement yourself as the best team that season.

I think for those who don't suffer from debilitating extroversion, this would probably be okay. A lot of people spent an entire year not going to LANs, seeing friends, going to bars, whatever. And those things are still up in the air for the foreseeable future. I think one weekend 3 months from now where they have to *gasp* scrim the entire week like they normally would but then play some playoffs matches that weekend instead of the offclass pugs they'd play would be completely fine, work-permitting. Maybe I've completely missed the mark here though and I heavily underestimate their dedicated commitment to their social lives.

EDIT: I'd really like to apologize for insulting these players by assuming they had the option of curbing their busy social lives for this meaningless event. If it were LAN? Now that's a different story. But I now realize that I was overvaluing TF2 and undervaluing their social lives for these 1-2 weekends. I've now come to the conclusion that absolutely any social event (or any other video game) takes precedence over the invite TF2 playoffs. Please disregard anything suggested in this post. I realize that all those weekends I'd voluntarily play TF2 when I was in invite just exposes me as being a loser and for players with a friend, every other weekend is absolutely booked by [any social event] for these players to pay TF2 any attention.

Yeah, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
The initial suggestion was to have the entire playoffs on a single weekend. I assume that's what everyone else was talking about.
You mentioned weekend-long qualifier tournaments, so I assumed you were talking about that, not scheduling a single playoff match on a Saturday or Sunday, and, if time allows and the teams are cool with it, possibly scheduling another match on the next day. Maybe even two if everyone is on board.

At least this wall of text let you get all that off your chest instead of simply asking to clarify before going on a rant.

EDIT: And yes, suggesting that, if scheduling TF2 matches doesn't take precedent over absolutely everything else no matter what, you don't like the game the game enough is insulting to those who kept playing this game for years.

[quote=clckwrk][quote=Setsul]
There's also a major difference between making a living off of playing competitive video games and not.
Weekdays are different than the weekend. Just because they are willing to dedicate some of their social life to TF2 doesn't mean they are willing to dedicate all of it. "Do they even like the game if they won't dedicate all their free time for a whole week to one match" is frankly insulting. Sure, you're going to do that if that's your job, but it's pointless to compare the two. "If other people do this while being paid then you should do at least this fraction of it for free" is never a good argument.
And no, the comparison with weekend tournaments doesn't work either. For those you invest just that weekend, for a whole league season you spend weeks of mostly weekdays. Then tacking on a weekend as well that some people can't play on is something completely different.

It worked with LAN because LAN [i]was[/i] the social event, it didn't take away time from anything.[/quote]

Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about a playoffs match being played on the weekend. And in the best case, all playoffs matches being played during this weekend. If for one weekend out of the season, they play the scrims they'd normally play during the week, then spend their weekend playing their playoffs games to determine who wins the season, how is that a huge time commitment? This post is so exaggerated it's making me question if I have 0 reading comprehension. ALL of their social lives (for one weekend playing a game they love to play)? That's insulting? It's insulting to think that for the good of the game I would heartlessly suggest that invite players spend one weekend or... a few weekend days... playing the game they've played for a decade... I'm completely fine with the idea of working on a weekend preventing this from happening as I've already said, but social lives? It's one week and TF2 IS A SOCIAL GAME. You're playing with your team, who you have spent the season or many season playing with, to try to cement yourself as the best team that season.

I think for those who don't suffer from debilitating extroversion, this would probably be okay. A lot of people spent an entire year not going to LANs, seeing friends, going to bars, whatever. And those things are still up in the air for the foreseeable future. I think one weekend 3 months from now where they have to *gasp* scrim the entire week like they normally would but then play some playoffs matches that weekend instead of the offclass pugs they'd play would be completely fine, work-permitting. Maybe I've completely missed the mark here though and I heavily underestimate their dedicated commitment to their social lives.

EDIT: I'd really like to apologize for [B]insulting[/B] these players by assuming they had the option of curbing their busy social lives for this meaningless event. If it were LAN? Now that's a different story. But I now realize that I was overvaluing TF2 and undervaluing their social lives for these 1-2 weekends. I've now come to the conclusion that absolutely any social event (or any other video game) takes precedence over the invite TF2 playoffs. Please disregard anything suggested in this post. I realize that all those weekends I'd voluntarily play TF2 when I was in invite just exposes me as being [B]a loser[/B] and for players with a friend, every other weekend is absolutely booked by [any social event] for these players to pay TF2 any attention.[/quote]
Yeah, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.
The initial suggestion was to have the entire playoffs on a single weekend. I assume that's what everyone else was talking about.
You mentioned weekend-long qualifier tournaments, so I assumed you were talking about that, not scheduling a single playoff match on a Saturday or Sunday, and, if time allows and the teams are cool with it, possibly scheduling another match on the next day. Maybe even two if everyone is on board.

At least this wall of text let you get all that off your chest instead of simply asking to clarify before going on a rant.

EDIT: And yes, suggesting that, if scheduling TF2 matches doesn't take precedent over absolutely everything else no matter what, you don't like the game the game enough is insulting to those who kept playing this game for years.
27
#27
11 Frags +

But it wouldn't take precedence over everything else no matter what? Unless the scale you're using encapsulates every single day of their lives over a 3 month span of time, scheduling a weekend for an important playoffs match or an all-weekend long playoffs event is not hard. And if you're going to be playing in the premier TF2 league, I don't see it as being very ridiculous.

And I'm sorry for...not assuming you incorrectly read my post? I did in fact assume that you were talking about exactly what I was saying, because you quoted my post. Next time I will assume that you did not read it correctly.

But it wouldn't take precedence over everything else no matter what? Unless the scale you're using encapsulates every single day of their lives over a 3 month span of time, scheduling a weekend for an important playoffs match or an all-weekend long playoffs event is not hard. And if you're going to be playing in the premier TF2 league, I don't see it as being very ridiculous.

And I'm sorry for...not assuming you incorrectly read my post? I did in fact assume that you were talking about exactly what I was saying, because you quoted my post. Next time I will assume that you did not read it correctly.
28
#28
-9 Frags +

Honestly, I'm pretty sure you're deliberately misreading everything I write.

clckwrkOf course, all of this is null and void if people are working schedules in which weekends aren't always free for them. That's certainly possible and even likely. If that's the reason teams struggle to find times to play each other at accommodating times, then so be it. But if it's because you don't want to play *too much* TF2, then wtf? Why are you even playing the game in the first place?

You pretty much wrote "If you have to work on the weekend, sucks to be you, no playoffs for you, but if you've got any other reason for not wanting to spend that entire weekend playing TF2 you might as well quit the game".
Am I really the only one who finds this unreasonable?

Honestly, I'm pretty sure you're deliberately misreading everything I write.

[quote=clckwrk]
Of course, all of this is null and void if people are working schedules in which weekends aren't always free for them. That's certainly possible and even likely. If that's the reason teams struggle to find times to play each other at accommodating times, then so be it. But if it's because you don't want to play *too much* TF2, then wtf? Why are you even playing the game in the first place? [/quote]
You pretty much wrote "If you have to work on the weekend, sucks to be you, no playoffs for you, but if you've got any other reason for not wanting to spend that entire weekend playing TF2 you might as well quit the game".
Am I really the only one who finds this unreasonable?
29
#29
13 Frags +

ok guys we've gotta wrap this up, closing arguments?

ok guys we've gotta wrap this up, closing arguments?
30
#30
12 Frags +

Man quits game to play different game for money, then comes back years later to post walls of text about how today's youth isn't dedicated to the game enough.

Man quits game to play different game for money, then comes back years later to post walls of text about how today's youth isn't dedicated to the game enough.
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