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Global Whitelist Lists Post-Meeting
211
#211
3 Frags +

I think the biggest source of problems in this discussion is that not everyone wants the whitelist / blacklist to do the same thing.
People seem to either want:

1) only game breaking weapons banned
(and are fine with allowing things that aren't fun to play with / against or are overpowered or take no skill to use as long as they aren't going to ruin the game)

2) to ban all the weapons that takes no skill to use, decreases the skill potential, or requires minimal strategy

3) ban all the unlocks that aren't fun to play with / against

4) some combination of all of the above

At first I was super against allowing all the dumb weapons but at this point I think it would be fine to allow them for a short time to test them and then ban them later on if they slow down the game or make playing 6s complete aids.

For example we tried out jarate and although it wasn't "game breaking" it's pretty hard to say that it isn't overpowered and unfun to play against so now we can ban it for those reasons.

All that being said i think that unbanning the soda popper is completely autistic.
Even if it takes a while to charge the hype meter it's still giving scout fucking 6 jumps and it can still out dps the stock scatter in extended fights.

Does anybody not remember ibby out damaging and out fragging enigma in highlander with that thing?

also quickfix is aids

I think the biggest source of problems in this discussion is that not everyone wants the whitelist / blacklist to do the same thing.
People seem to either want:

1) only game breaking weapons banned
(and are fine with allowing things that aren't fun to play with / against or are overpowered or take no skill to use as long as they aren't going to ruin the game)

2) to ban all the weapons that takes no skill to use, decreases the skill potential, or requires minimal strategy

3) ban all the unlocks that aren't fun to play with / against

4) some combination of all of the above

At first I was super against allowing all the dumb weapons but at this point I think it would be fine to allow them for a short time to test them and then ban them later on if they slow down the game or make playing 6s complete aids.

For example we tried out jarate and although it wasn't "game breaking" it's pretty hard to say that it isn't overpowered and unfun to play against so now we can ban it for those reasons.


All that being said i think that unbanning the soda popper is completely autistic.
Even if it takes a while to charge the hype meter it's still giving scout fucking 6 jumps and it can still out dps the stock scatter in extended fights.

Does anybody not remember ibby out damaging and out fragging enigma in highlander with that thing?

also quickfix is aids
212
#212
19 Frags +

#203

mustardoverlord3. no letting a few alpha males cuck the entire rest of the players into going along with their ideas/ballots are closed so no peer pressure (most invite players these days are 17 year old weebs so this is essential)

I am fairly confident that, at the very least, the soda popper and quick fix would not have been allowed if all this happened

it's pretty insane how the moment saam had to brb everybody wanted to unban almost everything.

Im fairly confident in that prediction as well.

mustardoverlordALSO:
CitricCitroMaindapperantly the only active invite player that had any sort of input was b4nnynursey, b4nny, corsa, habib, and saam all had a lot of input. Of course, not everything that each of them argued for/against ended up going the way they wanted, but that's how a group decision works
1 medic main, 3 scout mains, and habib

HASSASSIN HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN

If i remember correctly, the only people who didn't want the soda popper were, interestingly, the scout mains, me and saam. There was one other person I think but I'm not sure who it was.

#203
[quote=mustardoverlord]
3. no letting a few alpha males cuck the entire rest of the players into going along with their ideas/ballots are closed so no peer pressure (most invite players these days are 17 year old weebs so this is essential)

I am fairly confident that, at the very least, the soda popper and quick fix would not have been allowed if all this happened[/quote]

it's pretty insane how the moment saam had to brb everybody wanted to unban almost everything.

Im fairly confident in that prediction as well.

[quote=mustardoverlord]ALSO:

[quote=Citric][quote=CitroMaind]apperantly the only active invite player that had any sort of input was b4nny[/quote]
nursey, b4nny, corsa, habib, and saam all had a lot of input. Of course, not everything that each of them argued for/against ended up going the way they wanted, but that's how a group decision works[/quote]

1 medic main, 3 scout mains, and habib

HASSASSIN HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN[/quote]

If i remember correctly, the only people who didn't want the soda popper were, interestingly, the scout mains, me and saam. There was one other person I think but I'm not sure who it was.
213
#213
-5 Frags +
faggetCan someone please tell me what has valve actually said about the future of comp tf2? because from what i've understood this is all happening based on some vague assumptions about what valve wants.

The real reason is that we want to grow our playerbase. We struggle to survive as-is, and there's a huge untapped player pool alienated by the fact that 5 out of 9 classes simply cannot be played competitively without unlocks.

Also consider that competitive TF2 has been the same game for the better part of a decade, and naturally the scene loses interest due to stagnation. Unlocks would help to disrupt the meta, which is a double-edged sword because our meta is the only enjoyable way to play the game.

Lastly there's the fact that Valve won't cater specifically to the competitive community. Weapon releases/re-balances are the only content updates our community can receive. Forgoing unlocks is basically the same as dropping all developer support aside from the occasional garbage class changes.

[quote=fagget]Can someone please tell me what has valve actually said about the future of comp tf2? because from what i've understood this is all happening based on some vague assumptions about what valve wants.[/quote]
The real reason is that we want to grow our playerbase. We struggle to survive as-is, and there's a huge untapped player pool alienated by the fact that 5 out of 9 classes simply cannot be played competitively without unlocks.

Also consider that competitive TF2 has been the same game for the better part of a decade, and naturally the scene loses interest due to stagnation. Unlocks would help to disrupt the meta, which is a double-edged sword because our meta is the only enjoyable way to play the game.

Lastly there's the fact that Valve won't cater specifically to the competitive community. Weapon releases/re-balances are the only content updates our community can receive. Forgoing unlocks is basically the same as dropping all developer support aside from the occasional garbage class changes.
214
#214
36 Frags +

people get screwed by quick fix
germans get screwed by ww1
tf2 players want the game to grow and get people back
germans want their economy to grow and get their money back
tf2 players listen to b4nny and unban the quickfix
germans listen to hitler and break versailles treaty
????

Show Content
people get screwed by quick fix
germans get screwed by ww1
tf2 players want the game to grow and get people back
germans want their economy to grow and get their money back
tf2 players listen to b4nny and unban the quickfix
germans listen to hitler and break versailles treaty
????
[spoiler]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law[/spoiler]
215
#215
13 Frags +
panda106pushing against a quick-fix heavy on last should be fun

check for the med percentage with the vow, spam pomson if they have it, throw a jarate, run forward with the short circuit, use the natasha to slow them down, and while this happens use your 5 jump scout to fly above the enemy team and cap the point
its called variety and its gonna save this game
o_O

[quote=panda106]pushing against a quick-fix heavy on last should be fun[/quote]


check for the med percentage with the vow, spam pomson if they have it, throw a jarate, run forward with the short circuit, use the natasha to slow them down, and while this happens use your 5 jump scout to fly above the enemy team and cap the point
its called variety and its gonna save this game
o_O
216
#216
18 Frags +

"Unban > Sodapopper"
alright I don't main roamer or any projectile class anymore thanks LOL

"Unban > Sodapopper"
alright I don't main roamer or any projectile class anymore thanks LOL
217
#217
-34 Frags +

Any experience from S14 QuickFix is pretty much invalidated due to the two recent (as in post-s14) nerfs, which are:

  • All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
  • The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.

The weapon has been changed so it should be re-evaluated with testing.

There is a lot going for the Quick-Fix, which makes it a complicated weapon to pinpoint what specific changes would balance it, but in my experience, the issue with the Quick-Fix was that you would have perpetual uber advantages (which forced both teams to run it so that they wouldn't get steam rolled at middles). By reducing the build rate, that problem may or may not have been eliminated, but the point is that we can't know unless we actually test it. Most of us know from experience that closing out a 10% advantage is extremely hard to do, so it might be a non-factor like most of the other items unbanned at this point. The main problems were not that you could jump your medic around or that it healed faster, which people seem to be focusing on. My team won the S14 LAN so I promise you I understand how the Quick-Fix works and what the actual problems and overpowered strengths of it were. Don't forget there are plenty of downsides to running the Quick-Fix as well which, of course, have been completely ignored in this thread and people are acting like it's the greatest weapon with nothing but upsides. Let me remind you: your buffs are 50% smaller, leaving everyone unhealthier, especially your flank classes, which can be easily abused. You are not invulnerable while your charge is active, leaving you susceptible to all kinds of burst damage like coordinated spam, sticky traps, heavies, snipers, sentries, etc. Your medic may often get inadvertently blast jumped out of position making it much trickier to heal soldiers and demos who tend to jump around a lot. With the upsides being reduced and those downsides still being as prevalent as ever, people may decide that it's not worth running at all, which I find most likely.

The ideal situation is that the standard decision of running default Medigun would remain just as viable after these changes and you wouldn't be forced to run Quick-Fix because the other team is running it. If that is achieved, the situation where both teams run Quick-Fix becomes an extremely unlikely one, and one that the teams that force that upon themselves should be forced to deal with. Only by playtesting can we determine if that is actually what will happen. It might not. But lets find out. If it's a problem, everyone agreed we can take the same approach as we did with the Atomizer and BASE Jumper and reban them.

Any experience from S14 QuickFix is pretty much invalidated due to the two recent (as in post-s14) nerfs, which are: [list]
[*] All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
[*] The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.
[/list]
The weapon has been changed so it should be re-evaluated with testing.

There is a lot going for the Quick-Fix, which makes it a complicated weapon to pinpoint what specific changes would balance it, but in my experience, the issue with the Quick-Fix was that you would have perpetual uber advantages (which forced both teams to run it so that they wouldn't get steam rolled at middles). By reducing the build rate, that problem may or may not have been eliminated, but the point is that we can't know unless we actually test it. Most of us know from experience that closing out a 10% advantage is extremely hard to do, so it might be a non-factor like most of the other items unbanned at this point. The main problems were not that you could jump your medic around or that it healed faster, which people seem to be focusing on. My team won the S14 LAN so I promise you I understand how the Quick-Fix works and what the actual problems and overpowered strengths of it were. Don't forget there are plenty of downsides to running the Quick-Fix as well which, of course, have been completely ignored in this thread and people are acting like it's the greatest weapon with nothing but upsides. Let me remind you: your buffs are 50% smaller, leaving everyone unhealthier, especially your flank classes, which can be easily abused. You are not invulnerable while your charge is active, leaving you susceptible to all kinds of burst damage like coordinated spam, sticky traps, heavies, snipers, sentries, etc. Your medic may often get inadvertently blast jumped out of position making it much trickier to heal soldiers and demos who tend to jump around a lot. With the upsides being reduced and those downsides still being as prevalent as ever, people may decide that it's not worth running at all, which I find most likely.

The ideal situation is that the standard decision of running default Medigun would remain just as viable after these changes and you wouldn't be forced to run Quick-Fix because the other team is running it. If that is achieved, the situation where both teams run Quick-Fix becomes an extremely unlikely one, and one that the teams that force that upon themselves should be forced to deal with. Only by playtesting can we determine if that is actually what will happen. It might not. But lets find out. If it's a problem, everyone agreed we can take the same approach as we did with the Atomizer and BASE Jumper and reban them.
218
#218
2 Frags +

It seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.

It seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.
219
#219
-4 Frags +

If the Quick-Fix plays as badly as so many here say, doesn't it follow that, like the Atomizer and B.A.S.E. Jumper, it will probably be banned before the league seasons begin? It seems to me that the best thing to do, if you hold such a view, is to test it as much as possible. Then, at the next meeting, you can come forward and say, "We have used this thing in x scrims. It has detrimental effects a, b, and c. We want it banned (plus whatever other arguments there are to make)." This would counter those who want the Quick-Fix unbanned; those who support it almost certainly would argue that both it and the game have changed sufficiently since 2013 to make it good for the game. If you can show that this is not the case, then it seems to me that rebanning it would not be difficult to achieve.

Incidentally, I may have missed it, but was there a reason for this meeting taking place yesterday, rather than, say, mid-December, before Christmas and after fall semester (assuming institutions in Europe and Australia also finish up semesters in early December; perhaps they do it differently)? That would have provided much more time to test things, wouldn't affect Rewind LAN, and would be easily resolved before the seasons begin. This isn't to bash anyone; I just wonder what caused the late date.

Edit: First paragraph ninja'd by b4nny.

If the Quick-Fix plays as badly as so many here say, doesn't it follow that, like the Atomizer and B.A.S.E. Jumper, it will probably be banned before the league seasons begin? It seems to me that the best thing to do, if you hold such a view, is to test it as much as possible. Then, at the next meeting, you can come forward and say, "We have used this thing in x scrims. It has detrimental effects a, b, and c. We want it banned (plus whatever other arguments there are to make)." This would counter those who want the Quick-Fix unbanned; those who support it almost certainly would argue that both it and the game have changed sufficiently since 2013 to make it good for the game. If you can show that this is not the case, then it seems to me that rebanning it would not be difficult to achieve.

Incidentally, I may have missed it, but was there a reason for this meeting taking place yesterday, rather than, say, mid-December, before Christmas and after fall semester (assuming institutions in Europe and Australia also finish up semesters in early December; perhaps they do it differently)? That would have provided much more time to test things, wouldn't affect Rewind LAN, and would be easily resolved before the seasons begin. This isn't to bash anyone; I just wonder what caused the late date.

Edit: First paragraph ninja'd by b4nny.
220
#220
17 Frags +
RYGUYIt seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.

The Soda Popper did not receive a change which fixed the fact that IT GIVES YOU SO MANY JUMPS AND STILL HAS MAD DPS, WHAT THE FUCK?

[quote=RYGUY]It seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.[/quote]

The Soda Popper did not receive a change which fixed the fact that IT GIVES YOU SO MANY JUMPS AND STILL HAS MAD DPS, WHAT THE FUCK?
221
#221
-2 Frags +
sopsRYGUYIt seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.
The Soda Popper did not receive a change which fixed the fact that IT GIVES YOU SO MANY JUMPS AND STILL HAS MAD DPS, WHAT THE FUCK?

He's probably referring to the fact that you can no longer build Hype by running around; you have to deal 300-400 damage (I forget the number) before you can use it.

[quote=sops][quote=RYGUY]It seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.[/quote]

The Soda Popper did not receive a change which fixed the fact that IT GIVES YOU SO MANY JUMPS AND STILL HAS MAD DPS, WHAT THE FUCK?[/quote]

He's probably referring to the fact that you can no longer build Hype by running around; you have to deal 300-400 damage (I forget the number) before you can use it.
222
#222
16 Frags +

So any scout spamming the Wrap Assassin and playing smart enough not to die every 2 minutes gets to have a a Soda Popper charge?

So any scout spamming the Wrap Assassin and playing smart enough not to die every 2 minutes gets to have a a Soda Popper charge?
223
#223
0 Frags +

I actually think it is a great idea to allow these weapons to be unbanned for this week to determine if they are viable in competitive without breaking the balance or causing a drastic meta change. Weapons like the quickfix and soda popper offer an inherently different style of gameplay that teams would need to adapt to as they use them as well as against them, but that is not a bad thing. It seems unreasonable to think that competitive tf2 should utilize weapons that ensure the players are skilled because such a few weapons means after a couple seasons there is no longer a growth of skill. Introducing new weapons (one's that are balanced enough to not drastically alter the game) offer players new ways of playing the game and growing their skill. And the important thing to take away from this new whitelist is that this is by no means a finalized done deal, this is for players to try it out for a week in pugs before finally determining if the unlocks/locks are good for the next season.

I will however agree with others who have posted about the LAN whitelist. I do not think it is fair to all the teams to change the unlocks so close to the LAN date, even though these are weapons that are probably not going to be run that much. The next season of ESEA, ETF2L, UGC, and the Asian Leagues (sorry forgot what they were called) are so close that the discussion needs to be made now, but any change to the immediate LAN seems to hurt the teams that have been preparing for the LAN for awhile.

PS: As a medic main, I personally do not like the addition of solemn vow, I look forward to seeing how it will affect the next week if it is run. I think that it is one of the few weapons in the game that undoubtedly lowers the skill ceiling of a class. Quickfix on the other hand is a weapon that may be a slight upgrade in most instances but does not appear to be something that causes a loss in skill as players will have to learn how to utilize quickfix's advantages and avoid the disadvantages.

I actually think it is a great idea to allow these weapons to be unbanned for this week to determine if they are viable in competitive without breaking the balance or causing a drastic meta change. Weapons like the quickfix and soda popper offer an inherently different style of gameplay that teams would need to adapt to as they use them as well as against them, but that is not a bad thing. It seems unreasonable to think that competitive tf2 should utilize weapons that ensure the players are skilled because such a few weapons means after a couple seasons there is no longer a growth of skill. Introducing new weapons (one's that are balanced enough to not drastically alter the game) offer players new ways of playing the game and growing their skill. And the important thing to take away from this new whitelist is that this is by no means a finalized done deal, this is for players to try it out for a week in pugs before finally determining if the unlocks/locks are good for the next season.

I will however agree with others who have posted about the LAN whitelist. I do not think it is fair to all the teams to change the unlocks so close to the LAN date, even though these are weapons that are probably not going to be run that much. The next season of ESEA, ETF2L, UGC, and the Asian Leagues (sorry forgot what they were called) are so close that the discussion needs to be made now, but any change to the immediate LAN seems to hurt the teams that have been preparing for the LAN for awhile.

PS: As a medic main, I personally do not like the addition of solemn vow, I look forward to seeing how it will affect the next week if it is run. I think that it is one of the few weapons in the game that undoubtedly lowers the skill ceiling of a class. Quickfix on the other hand is a weapon that may be a slight upgrade in most instances but does not appear to be something that causes a loss in skill as players will have to learn how to utilize quickfix's advantages and avoid the disadvantages.
224
#224
-6 Frags +
b4nny.

i made basically the same point 4 pages ago. people here don't believe the game nor the QF have changed enough to completely shift its impact on the meta

Heavy works far differently than he did in 2013 (spin up). Pushing into a heavy is nowhere near as dangerous as it used to be
Scout as a whole is far stronger, so scout ubers are more popular. this means the QF's uber isn't very good on scouts since they can fairly reliably be one shot or focused down
Players on the whole are far more aggressive and individual classes are less important. Pushing off of a demo pick into an even uber is a lot less of a sure thing
idk

[quote=b4nny].[/quote]

i made basically the same point 4 pages ago. people here don't believe the game nor the QF have changed enough to completely shift its impact on the meta

Heavy works far differently than he did in 2013 (spin up). Pushing into a heavy is nowhere near as dangerous as it used to be
Scout as a whole is far stronger, so scout ubers are more popular. this means the QF's uber isn't very good on scouts since they can fairly reliably be one shot or focused down
Players on the whole are far more aggressive and individual classes are less important. Pushing off of a demo pick into an even uber is a lot less of a sure thing
idk
225
#225
-29 Frags +

-6 frags on a great post about a weapon that's been updated since it was last used in s14. Stop looking at who wrote the post, and read the content of it you fucking idiots.

-6 frags on a great post about a weapon that's been updated since it was last used in s14. Stop looking at who wrote the post, and read the content of it you fucking idiots.
226
#226
2 Frags +

sooo has any one scrimmed on this whitelist? what was it like?

sooo has any one scrimmed on this whitelist? what was it like?
227
#227
1 Frags +
sopsSo any scout spamming the Wrap Assassin and playing smart enough not to die every 2 minutes gets to have a a Soda Popper charge?

I didn't say I agreed; I simply stated what I thought the guy meant.

[quote=sops]So any scout spamming the Wrap Assassin and playing smart enough not to die every 2 minutes gets to have a a Soda Popper charge?[/quote]
I didn't say I agreed; I simply stated what I thought the guy meant.
228
#228
12 Frags +
eeeb4nny.
i made basically the same point 4 pages ago. people here don't believe the game nor the QF have changed enough to completely shift its impact on the meta

Heavy works far differently than he did in 2013 (spin up). Pushing into a heavy is nowhere near as dangerous as it used to be
Scout as a whole is far stronger, so scout ubers are more popular. this means the QF's uber isn't very good on scouts since they can fairly reliably be one shot or focused down
Players on the whole are far more aggressive and individual classes are less important. Pushing off of a demo pick into an even uber is a lot less of a sure thing
idk

wtf are you talking about the brass beast is a thing so long as they have the proper foresight to spin up in anticipation to a push they can put up more dps than ever
also i would disagree with you completely on the last point if the other team doesn't have a demo it means no sticky traps and far less spam potential which makes it a good opportunity to push and force their uber first (not sure what this point has to do with the conversion in the first place tho)
i didn't play back them in s14 and know hardly anything about the soda popper since ive never played highlander with it but i think we should consider more highly the opinions of those who were actually subjected to these weapons in the past (ie, hl players who realized how dumb it was, rando and others who played back when the qf was unbanned)

[quote=eee][quote=b4nny].[/quote]

i made basically the same point 4 pages ago. people here don't believe the game nor the QF have changed enough to completely shift its impact on the meta

Heavy works far differently than he did in 2013 (spin up). Pushing into a heavy is nowhere near as dangerous as it used to be
Scout as a whole is far stronger, so scout ubers are more popular. this means the QF's uber isn't very good on scouts since they can fairly reliably be one shot or focused down
Players on the whole are far more aggressive and individual classes are less important. Pushing off of a demo pick into an even uber is a lot less of a sure thing
idk[/quote]
wtf are you talking about the brass beast is a thing so long as they have the proper foresight to spin up in anticipation to a push they can put up more dps than ever
also i would disagree with you completely on the last point if the other team doesn't have a demo it means no sticky traps and far less spam potential which makes it a good opportunity to push and force their uber first (not sure what this point has to do with the conversion in the first place tho)
i didn't play back them in s14 and know hardly anything about the soda popper since ive never played highlander with it but i think we should consider more highly the opinions of those who were actually subjected to these weapons in the past (ie, hl players who realized how dumb it was, rando and others who played back when the qf was unbanned)
229
#229
16 Frags +

As one of the few surviving Medics let alone players still playing since S14, I'm not looking forward to using Quick Fix again - I still have nightmares from that season. But I guess we'll just deal with it for a few days before it gets rebanned. Right?

As one of the few surviving Medics let alone players still playing since S14, I'm not looking forward to using Quick Fix again - I still have nightmares from that season. But I guess we'll just deal with it for a few days before it gets rebanned. Right?
230
#230
14 Frags +

TBH id have more fun going back and playing vanilla tf2 then playing with quick fix, the other weapon unbans aren't as bad as the quick fix. But the quick fix is straight up broken it needs more re work before i want see it in a league. I have mention this before in a earlier post, its similar to the booty situation, if one teams runs the quick fix then the other team needs to do the same(in lower level gameplay, like open). The reason i say that is when a med can just fly to mid with your demo, the mid is pretty much over if the other teams medic is running uber. As a demoman main, i have never felt so frustrate in my entire life, like i do so much damage but it actually means nothing(for example doing 400 damage to someone and they just live and are fully buffed, with no consequence) ,so now your damage stats mean nothing(not saying that it should matter a whole lot, but it should matter somewhat.)These are just my thoughts, of scrimming against it.
If you are interested in looking at stats i guess idk

I think for the sake of having fun in this dying game, just keep the quick fix banned unless something major happens to it.

TBH id have more fun going back and playing vanilla tf2 then playing with quick fix, the other weapon unbans aren't [i][b]as bad[/b][/i] as the quick fix. But the quick fix is straight up broken it needs more re work before i want see it in a league. I have mention this before in a earlier post, its similar to the booty situation, if one teams runs the quick fix then the other team needs to do the same(in lower level gameplay, like [i][b]open[/b][/i]). The reason i say that is when a med can just fly to mid with your demo, the mid is pretty much over if the other teams medic is running uber. [b][i]As a demoman main, i have never felt so frustrate in my entire life, like i do so much damage but it actually means nothing(for example doing 400 damage to someone and they just live and are fully buffed, with no consequence) ,so now your damage stats mean nothing(not saying that it should matter a whole lot, but it should matter somewhat.)[/i][/b]These are just my thoughts, of scrimming against it.
[url=http://logs.tf/1613281#76561198065558637]If you are interested in looking at stats i guess idk[/url]

I think for the sake of having fun in this dying game, just keep the quick fix banned unless something major happens to it.
231
#231
8 Frags +
EricfaggetCan someone please tell me what has valve actually said about the future of comp tf2? because from what i've understood this is all happening based on some vague assumptions about what valve wants.The real reason is that we want to grow our playerbase. We struggle to survive as-is, and there's a huge untapped player pool alienated by the fact that 5 out of 9 classes simply cannot be played competitively without unlocks.

Unbanning OP scout unlocks doesn't make that any better though.

I feel bad for all the new people getting into comp actually. When I started playing, what you were supposed to do and how you were supposed to do it was pretty clear from the whitelist. The game was fun at a low level because you only had to concern yourself with getting better at some standard setups that you'd always see in every match, it was quick to learn what you were supposed to do. Good teams destroyed you, but it felt good because you knew you were learning from them.

That doesn't really apply anymore, at least in my experience trying to help out a newer team. Now a new player has to research extra just to figure out what parts of the whitelist are good staple weapons, what's situational, what's a gimmick, what's bad but is allowed anyway and shouldn't be used. They have to learn how to deal with all these gimmicks for when a team runs them to cheese a win, even though nobody actually wants to and would rather play an honest game that they've prepared for. The game becomes much more chaotic at the bottom levels, and they have to just hope that when someone says "6s is way more organized" that they mean later on and aren't lying. They have to go through a bunch of extra hoops before they can even really start to play actual competitive.

We weren't alienating them by banning shit, we're alienating them by expecting them to instantly learn how to deal with that same shit.

[quote=Eric][quote=fagget]Can someone please tell me what has valve actually said about the future of comp tf2? because from what i've understood this is all happening based on some vague assumptions about what valve wants.[/quote]
The real reason is that we want to grow our playerbase. We struggle to survive as-is, and there's a huge untapped player pool alienated by the fact that 5 out of 9 classes simply cannot be played competitively without unlocks.[/quote]
Unbanning OP scout unlocks doesn't make that any better though.

I feel bad for all the new people getting into comp actually. When I started playing, what you were supposed to do and how you were supposed to do it was pretty clear from the whitelist. The game was fun at a low level because you only had to concern yourself with getting better at some standard setups that you'd always see in every match, it was quick to learn what you were supposed to do. Good teams destroyed you, but it felt good because you knew you were learning from them.

That doesn't really apply anymore, at least in my experience trying to help out a newer team. Now a new player has to research extra just to figure out what parts of the whitelist are good staple weapons, what's situational, what's a gimmick, what's bad but is allowed anyway and shouldn't be used. They have to learn how to deal with all these gimmicks for when a team runs them to cheese a win, even though nobody actually wants to and would rather play an honest game that they've prepared for. The game becomes much more chaotic at the bottom levels, and they have to just hope that when someone says "6s is way more organized" that they mean later on and aren't lying. They have to go through a bunch of extra hoops before they can even really start to play actual competitive.

We weren't alienating them by banning shit, we're alienating them by expecting them to instantly learn how to deal with that same shit.
232
#232
14 Frags +
b4nny [list[*] All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
[*] The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.
[/list]

These changes don't solve one of the big parts of the quick-fix that people seem to be unhappy about.

randoEven with the quickfix "nerfs" it is still by far the best medigun. You have the ability to save your medic from just about any situation.
[quote=b4nny [list]
[*] All mediguns now allow medics to move as fast as scouts
[*] The build rate of the charge was reduced from +25% to +10%.
[/list]
[/quote]

These changes don't solve one of the big parts of the quick-fix that people seem to be unhappy about.

[quote=rando]Even with the quickfix "nerfs" it is still by far the best medigun. You have the ability to save your medic from just about any situation.

[/quote]
233
#233
21 Frags +

officially the best thing that came out of that meeting

http://puu.sh/tnvna/67cc6de9e7.png

officially the best thing that came out of that meeting
[img]http://puu.sh/tnvna/67cc6de9e7.png[/img]
234
#234
18 Frags +
corsa
If i remember correctly, the only people who didn't want the soda popper were, interestingly, the scout mains, me and saam. There was one other person I think but I'm not sure who it was.

i don't want the weapon unbanned because it's obnoxious to use, not as fun to play with and also really good so it's either learn a new broken weapon that will get rebanned or be at a disadvantage, and i'm 90% sure hassassin was far too stoned to have any idea what was going on

also i don't like how the meeting was held at a time when people who don't play the game 60 hrs/ week but are still good (marmaduke, evl dudes etc) were doing actual real life shit and couldn't be there but at the perfect time for whoever the brain dead euro who argued for like 20 minutes to not unban the jarate to show up.

[quote=corsa]

If i remember correctly, the only people who didn't want the soda popper were, interestingly, the scout mains, me and saam. There was one other person I think but I'm not sure who it was.[/quote]

i don't want the weapon unbanned because it's obnoxious to use, not as fun to play with and also really good so it's either learn a new broken weapon that will get rebanned or be at a disadvantage, and i'm 90% sure hassassin was far too stoned to have any idea what was going on

also i don't like how the meeting was held at a time when people who don't play the game 60 hrs/ week but are still good (marmaduke, evl dudes etc) were doing actual real life shit and couldn't be there but at the perfect time for whoever the brain dead euro who argued for like 20 minutes to not unban the jarate to show up.
235
#235
13 Frags +

how i feel when i think about quick-fix tf2

https://youtu.be/yca2BCwAnBQ?t=31s

how i feel when i think about quick-fix tf2

https://youtu.be/yca2BCwAnBQ?t=31s
236
#236
0 Frags +

Who even represented EU?
Thalash stated no one from Se7en was available, and many of the ETF2L league admins are not considered high level

Who even represented EU?
Thalash stated no one from Se7en was available, and many of the ETF2L league admins are not considered high level
237
#237
13 Frags +
Maxi-Who even represented EU?
Thalash stated no one from Se7en was available, and many of the ETF2L league admins are not considered high level

turbo, dmoule, buttnose, adysky

[quote=Maxi-]Who even represented EU?
Thalash stated no one from Se7en was available, and many of the ETF2L league admins are not considered high level[/quote]
turbo, dmoule, buttnose, adysky
238
#238
20 Frags +

never go full highlander

never go full highlander
239
#239
-8 Frags +

It seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.

sopsSo any scout spamming the Wrap Assassin and playing smart enough not to die every 2 minutes gets to have a a Soda Popper charge?

This is the exact kind of knee-jerk theory crafting response that I was attempting to avoid with my initial post. You can claim that "ooh but scouts are just going to spam wrap assassin and get that in no time" but we have no actual proof to base anything on until the weapon has a chance to be used. With things like the atomizer and base jumper last season, weapons that are truly game breaking, they were called out and rebanned almost immediately after they were proven to be absolutely broken. All I'm saying is that some of these weapons that have been changed majorly recently should be given the same treatment.

It seems to me that nobody actually paid attention to anything. My understand from just listening to the discussion. Was that weapons like the soda popper, quickfix, and solemn vow were to be unbanned so that they can be properly play tested, as all of these items have received changes that may or may not have made then more viable/less OP. People are so quick to voice opinions when these things are essentially in a trial period that hasn't even begun yet.[quote=sops]So any scout spamming the Wrap Assassin and playing smart enough not to die every 2 minutes gets to have a a Soda Popper charge?[/quote]
This is the exact kind of knee-jerk theory crafting response that I was attempting to avoid with my initial post. You can claim that "ooh but scouts are just going to spam wrap assassin and get that in no time" but we have no actual proof to base anything on until the weapon has a chance to be used. With things like the atomizer and base jumper last season, weapons that are truly game breaking, they were called out and rebanned almost immediately after they were proven to be absolutely broken. All I'm saying is that some of these weapons that have been changed majorly recently should be given the same treatment.
240
#240
14 Frags +

pls ban quickfix
remember hrg vs mix^ gully where the first half ended at 0-0
or when heavy to mid was a viable strat
or medigun rock paper scissors

pls ban quickfix
remember hrg vs mix^ gully where the first half ended at 0-0
or when heavy to mid was a viable strat
or medigun rock paper scissors
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