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post your ideal whitelist
1
#1
0 Frags +

https://whitelist.tf/11149

https://whitelist.tf/11149
2
#2
-3 Frags +

remove scout

remove scout
3
#3
-5 Frags +

Cow mangler unbanned

Cow mangler unbanned
4
#4
20 Frags +

https://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).

edit: Still think that if valve fix IB or a plugin is made that fixes it then it should be allowed at that point.

https://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).

edit: Still think that if valve fix IB or a plugin is made that fixes it then it should be allowed at that point.
5
#5
12 Frags +

https://whitelist.tf/etf2l_6v6_s15

https://whitelist.tf/etf2l_6v6_s15
6
#6
1 Frags +
Makhttps://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).

I think from the current whitelist, only these should be banned for being a straight upgrade to their stock counterpart

https://i.imgur.com/B4o8h32.png

[quote=Mak]https://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).[/quote]

I think from the current whitelist, only these should be banned for being a straight upgrade to their stock counterpart
[img]https://i.imgur.com/B4o8h32.png[/img]
7
#7
2 Frags +

I notice that a lot of people who propose these far more restrictive whitelists often want the Cloak and Dagger banned, which seems very strange to me. Surely you don't want to make it even more difficult for the spy class to break stalemates, which is pretty much the only thing it is somewhat useful for.

I notice that a lot of people who propose these far more restrictive whitelists often want the Cloak and Dagger banned, which seems very strange to me. Surely you don't want to make it even more difficult for the spy class to break stalemates, which is pretty much the only thing it is somewhat useful for.
8
#8
20 Frags +
GazMakhttps://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).

I think from the current whitelist, only these should be banned for being a straight upgrade to their stock counterpart
https://i.imgur.com/B4o8h32.png

Hmh, I think the winger should also be banned... not directly a straight upgrade, but I still don't get why letting scouts have free highground in fights is beneficial. It's basically a straight upgrade 90% of the time, because better positioning in fights is often more important than the pistol dmg.
I'm pretty sure it being unlocked makes map creation/balancing harder aswell, since highground that can't be reached by the winger is more difficult to implement properly.

[quote=Gaz][quote=Mak]https://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).[/quote]

I think from the current whitelist, only these should be banned for being a straight upgrade to their stock counterpart
[img]https://i.imgur.com/B4o8h32.png[/img][/quote]

Hmh, I think the winger should also be banned... not directly a straight upgrade, but I still don't get why letting scouts have free highground in fights is beneficial. It's basically a straight upgrade 90% of the time, because better positioning in fights is often more important than the pistol dmg.
I'm pretty sure it being unlocked makes map creation/balancing harder aswell, since highground that can't be reached by the winger is more difficult to implement properly.
9
#9
2 Frags +
Dave_the_IrateI notice that a lot of people who propose these far more restrictive whitelists often want the Cloak and Dagger banned, which seems very strange to me. Surely you don't want to make it even more difficult for the spy class to break stalemates, which is pretty much the only thing it is somewhat useful for.

I have ptsd from that one ascent vs 7 (i think) game on badlands where they had a cloak and dagger spy standing still on gray bridge for literally 10 minutes. I actually fell asleep watching it

[quote=Dave_the_Irate]I notice that a lot of people who propose these far more restrictive whitelists often want the Cloak and Dagger banned, which seems very strange to me. Surely you don't want to make it even more difficult for the spy class to break stalemates, which is pretty much the only thing it is somewhat useful for.[/quote]

I have ptsd from that one ascent vs 7 (i think) game on badlands where they had a cloak and dagger spy standing still on gray bridge for literally 10 minutes. I actually fell asleep watching it
10
#10
4 Frags +
VoxiGazMakhttps://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).

I think from the current whitelist, only these should be banned for being a straight upgrade to their stock counterpart
https://i.imgur.com/B4o8h32.png

Hmh, I think the winger should also be banned... not directly a straight upgrade, but I still don't get why letting scouts have free highground in fights is beneficial. It's basically a straight upgrade 90% of the time, because better positioning in fights is often more important than the pistol dmg.
I'm pretty sure it being unlocked makes map creation/balancing harder aswell, since highground that can't be reached by the winger is more difficult to implement properly.

Helo me mr scout me jump over splash haha byeee!

[quote=Voxi][quote=Gaz][quote=Mak]https://whitelist.tf/11150

These r like the only unlocks that add more to the game than they take away, and even then some of them are contentious. Iron Bomber should probably straight out be banned now that it's confirmed straight upgrade (I'll forever hold the L for telling people it was just placebo for the past 2/3 years lmfao).[/quote]

I think from the current whitelist, only these should be banned for being a straight upgrade to their stock counterpart
[img]https://i.imgur.com/B4o8h32.png[/img][/quote]

Hmh, I think the winger should also be banned... not directly a straight upgrade, but I still don't get why letting scouts have free highground in fights is beneficial. It's basically a straight upgrade 90% of the time, because better positioning in fights is often more important than the pistol dmg.
I'm pretty sure it being unlocked makes map creation/balancing harder aswell, since highground that can't be reached by the winger is more difficult to implement properly.[/quote]

Helo me mr scout me jump over splash haha byeee!
11
#11
4 Frags +
Voxibecause better positioning in fights is often more important than the pistol dmg.

People underestimate how strong the pistol actually is. Contrary to popular belief the pistol is extremely easy to use on anything except other scouts. The scout secondary is a pick-your-poison scenario for other classes. For Scouts, it is a preference thing - I'm almost certain that in NA the majority of scouts use the default pistol, whereas in EU it feels like the Winger is more popular.

In my opinion the problem with the scout class stems from other things: it is the Medic-Scout-Speed and the issue that six bullets in the scattergun clip are extremely forgiving, especially because the reload speed is also incredibly high and that scouts dont sacrifice ammo for mobility, like soldiers do. I'm all up for banning Winger if the other stuff gets banned aswell, but unless changes happen to either the clip size or the reload speed of the scattergun, Scout will still remain the strongest class in the game.

[quote=Voxi]because better positioning in fights is often more important than the pistol dmg.
[/quote]
People underestimate how strong the pistol actually is. Contrary to popular belief the pistol is extremely easy to use on anything except other scouts. The scout secondary is a pick-your-poison scenario for other classes. For Scouts, it is a preference thing - I'm almost certain that in NA the majority of scouts use the default pistol, whereas in EU it feels like the Winger is more popular.

In my opinion the problem with the scout class stems from other things: it is the Medic-Scout-Speed and the issue that six bullets in the scattergun clip are extremely forgiving, especially because the reload speed is also incredibly high and that scouts dont sacrifice ammo for mobility, like soldiers do. I'm all up for banning Winger if the other stuff gets banned aswell, but unless changes happen to either the clip size or the reload speed of the scattergun, Scout will still remain the strongest class in the game.
12
#12
27 Frags +

If "straight upgrade to stock" is at all a valid reason to ban a weapon then we shouldn't allow gunboats, escape plan or crossbow. "Does it change class balance in a way that makes the game significantly worse" is probably a better motive to go with.

If "straight upgrade to stock" is at all a valid reason to ban a weapon then we shouldn't allow gunboats, escape plan or crossbow. "Does it change class balance in a way that makes the game significantly worse" is probably a better motive to go with.
13
#13
6 Frags +

yeah of course the scout would not be worthless without the winger but why leave it in? dont let perfection be the enemy of the good

yeah of course the scout would not be worthless without the winger but why leave it in? dont let perfection be the enemy of the good
14
#14
14 Frags +

Also, I realize most people disagree with me on this, but I don't really understand why you need to ban the 80% of weapons that nobody ever runs because they're terrible. I feel like tf2 is the only game where people want to ban things for being too underpowered. Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point).

As for things that should be banned are some weapons that are arguable because they throw off class balance a bit like the winger and then the real problem weapons are things like the vaccinator, quick fix, wrangler, rescue ranger, natascha which all have the common problem that they make stalemates and holding last really easy, or things that just insta win fights for no cost like mad milk.

Also, I realize most people disagree with me on this, but I don't really understand why you need to ban the 80% of weapons that nobody ever runs because they're terrible. I feel like tf2 is the only game where people want to ban things for being too underpowered. Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point).

As for things that should be banned are some weapons that are arguable because they throw off class balance a bit like the winger and then the real problem weapons are things like the vaccinator, quick fix, wrangler, rescue ranger, natascha which all have the common problem that they make stalemates and holding last really easy, or things that just insta win fights for no cost like mad milk.
15
#15
Process/Gullywash Refresh
-9 Frags +
ZestyAlso, I realize most people disagree with me on this, but I don't really understand why you need to ban the 80% of weapons that nobody ever runs because they're terrible. I feel like tf2 is the only game where people want to ban things for being too underpowered.

If they're terrible and nobody runs them, for what reason should they be allowed? The only use I can think of is finding a super niche situation where it's good, but lets be real, most people are gonna use them to throw games and troll

ZestyBeyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point).

Quickies can destroy midair stickies and for that reason alone they shouldn't be allowed imo & again, scottish is bad so why allow it?

Soldier backpacks remove depth from the game. Instead of coming up with a cordinated play or whatever, you can just killyourself and get a banner. It also slows down the game because of the time it takes to charge up, inbetween which your team could have already gone for another play. It's also harder to transition between points inbetween banner uses, and if both teams have issues breaking the stalemate and one team equips it the other team is forced to run it.

ZestyIf "straight upgrade to stock" is at all a valid reason to ban a weapon then we shouldn't allow gunboats, escape plan or crossbow. "Does it change class balance in a way that makes the game significantly worse" is probably a better motive to go with.

The other items like, kritz, gunboats, crossbow arguably adds more depth to the gameplay bc of uber counting, rocket jumping / positioning, health management [even if i think it heals too much].

Escape plan just makes soldier come back into fights a bit faster after getting a health pack or allows him to leave in some cases which is a nice bonus the class needs imo, not to mention it gives gunboat soldiers a way to build uber.

[quote=Zesty]Also, I realize most people disagree with me on this, but I don't really understand why you need to ban the 80% of weapons that nobody ever runs because they're terrible. I feel like tf2 is the only game where people want to ban things for being too underpowered. [/quote] If they're terrible and nobody runs them, for what reason should they be allowed? The only use I can think of is finding a super niche situation where it's good, but lets be real, most people are gonna use them to throw games and troll

[quote=Zesty]Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point). [/quote]
Quickies can destroy midair stickies and for that reason alone they shouldn't be allowed imo & again, scottish is bad so why allow it?

Soldier backpacks remove depth from the game. Instead of coming up with a cordinated play or whatever, you can just killyourself and get a banner. It also slows down the game because of the time it takes to charge up, inbetween which your team could have already gone for another play. It's also harder to transition between points inbetween banner uses, and [i]if[/i] both teams have issues breaking the stalemate and one team equips it the other team is forced to run it.

[quote=Zesty]If "straight upgrade to stock" is at all a valid reason to ban a weapon then we shouldn't allow gunboats, escape plan or crossbow. "Does it change class balance in a way that makes the game significantly worse" is probably a better motive to go with.[/quote]
The other items like, kritz, gunboats, crossbow arguably adds more depth to the gameplay bc of uber counting, rocket jumping / positioning, health management [even if i think it heals too much].

Escape plan just makes soldier come back into fights a bit faster after getting a health pack or allows him to leave in some cases which is a nice bonus the class needs imo, not to mention it gives gunboat soldiers a way to build uber.
16
#16
-5 Frags +

Has anyone even tried the new quickfix? Wasnt the last time it was used in like 2012? I dont really think you guys realize but the weapon is dogshit now. Sure it might build 10% faster, but its not even worth it because the ubers are so terrible. You cant use in for traps or snipers, you can't flash people in on fights, and even if you get in clean you arent guaranteed to live because any synced damage kills you. Not to mention the biggest nerf, you can't have 200 hp midrange laser beam gremlins because of the decreased overheal. Scouts are maxed at 150 hp and can basically always die to spam. Also, because of the shared rocket jumping, you cant flash your demo/soldier while they bomb in. This weapon is fucking terrible why is everyone still acting like its gamebreaking?

Has anyone even tried the new quickfix? Wasnt the last time it was used in like 2012? I dont really think you guys realize but the weapon is dogshit now. Sure it might build 10% faster, but its not even worth it because the ubers are so terrible. You cant use in for traps or snipers, you can't flash people in on fights, and even if you get in clean you arent guaranteed to live because any synced damage kills you. Not to mention the biggest nerf, you can't have 200 hp midrange laser beam gremlins because of the decreased overheal. Scouts are maxed at 150 hp and can basically always die to spam. Also, because of the shared rocket jumping, you cant flash your demo/soldier while they bomb in. This weapon is fucking terrible why is everyone still acting like its gamebreaking?
17
#17
5 Frags +
Zesty Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point).

I think all of these unlocks pervert the flow of the game. Banners slow shit down by taking too long to build and kinda have busted effects (beside conch). The reward for good spam/pressure is the immediate effects of it, with banners you can have 1 guy take a bit more risk and have everyone else play low-risk and you'll build an advantage eventually while exposing your team as a whole to less chance of a misplay.

I also don't think demo (or any class) should have access to projectiles that can destroy stickies, its rly obnoxiously strong in enabling cheese plays. Luckily no map in the map pool rewards it too much atm but yea.

Infinity_Has anyone even tried the new quickfix? Wasnt the last time it was used in like 2012? I dont really think you guys realize but the weapon is dogshit now.

every1 knows the uber sucks but i think you're the one underestimating how good +40% heal rate is. The decision to bow or beam (assuming target is in range) is often marginal except for if you need to hit the bow for them to live during a fight. Quickfix heal rate is insanity, if your med is running it and their team isn't then you can just keep taking dry fights and win off of better heals. allowing it would probs lead to some stupid meta where people run it to mids then switch off it after they die, unless they wanna keep taking fights.

[quote=Zesty] Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point). [/quote]

I think all of these unlocks pervert the flow of the game. Banners slow shit down by taking too long to build and kinda have busted effects (beside conch). The reward for good spam/pressure is the immediate effects of it, with banners you can have 1 guy take a bit more risk and have everyone else play low-risk and you'll build an advantage eventually while exposing your team as a whole to less chance of a misplay.

I also don't think demo (or any class) should have access to projectiles that can destroy stickies, its rly obnoxiously strong in enabling cheese plays. Luckily no map in the map pool rewards it too much atm but yea.

[quote=Infinity_]Has anyone even tried the new quickfix? Wasnt the last time it was used in like 2012? I dont really think you guys realize but the weapon is dogshit now.[/quote]

every1 knows the uber sucks but i think you're the one underestimating how good +40% heal rate is. The decision to bow or beam (assuming target is in range) is often marginal except for if you need to hit the bow for them to live during a fight. Quickfix heal rate is insanity, if your med is running it and their team isn't then you can just keep taking dry fights and win off of better heals. allowing it would probs lead to some stupid meta where people run it to mids then switch off it after they die, unless they wanna keep taking fights.
18
#18
24 Frags +
Infinity_

scouts running meds out is pretty annoying but if I start seeing soldiers jumping their meds out I'm gonna lose my shit

[quote=Infinity_][/quote]

scouts running meds out is pretty annoying but if I start seeing soldiers jumping their meds out I'm gonna lose my shit
19
#19
-9 Frags +

https://whitelist.tf/11152

the "6 rebalances until valve major whitelist"
and yes I want the taunts unbanned

https://whitelist.tf/11152

the "6 rebalances until valve major whitelist"
and yes I want the taunts unbanned
20
#20
3 Frags +
Infinity_

You seem to completely ignore the 40% faster healing rate and the fact that it is extremely overpowered on mids or when defending.

[quote=Infinity_][/quote]
You seem to completely ignore the 40% faster healing rate and the fact that it is extremely overpowered on mids or when defending.
21
#21
3 Frags +
MakI think all of these unlocks pervert the flow of the game. Banners slow shit down by taking too long to build and kinda have busted effects (beside conch). The reward for good spam/pressure is the immediate effects of it, with banners you can have 1 guy take a bit more risk and have everyone else play low-risk and you'll build an advantage eventually while exposing your team as a whole to less chance of a misplay.

I don't know if I completely agree with this. Obviously banners work best if you play around a stalemate but they don't make creating the stalemate any easier which I think is the main problem with other unlocks that deserve a ban. They also provide a resolution to their own stalemates and some of the best counterplay to them is to not let the game get slow enough that they can build it (by doing stuff like aggressing the flank with ur combo, sending players behind etc). In that way they feel more equivalent to stuff like offclassing to sniper and spy where you're going to do it when there's already a stalemate rather than planning for one with it. It does take longer to build than a pick class does to get a pick so there's something in that though.

MakZesty Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point).
I also don't think demo (or any class) should have access to projectiles that can destroy stickies, its rly obnoxiously strong in enabling cheese plays. Luckily no map in the map pool rewards it too much atm but yea.

I'm not sure that enabling cheese plays (where you're saccing for the point or deleting stickies to get through a choke) is inherently bad, it's just different. I do think that deleting stickies as they're coming out of a demo's gun so you can do damage to him and deny him from doing any is a pretty stupid mechanic though.

I think my general point is I kind of worry that we have a very fixed idea of exactly what the game should be. At this point everyone has figured out how that version of tf2 should be played and it's purely about execution which imo makes the game far less interesting than it has been in the past (along with certain balance changes that threw off the initial flow the game was designed around in the first place). It really hits home watching the streams of the old ESEA finals where they're still working out how to do all this stuff. I don't think unlocks in general really affect much at all, but I do think that wanting to ban stuff when you won't see it used in 95% of games and it's effect on gameplay is minimal or for one specific play is very much a symptom of that.

[quote=Mak]
I think all of these unlocks pervert the flow of the game. Banners slow shit down by taking too long to build and kinda have busted effects (beside conch). The reward for good spam/pressure is the immediate effects of it, with banners you can have 1 guy take a bit more risk and have everyone else play low-risk and you'll build an advantage eventually while exposing your team as a whole to less chance of a misplay.
[/quote]

I don't know if I completely agree with this. Obviously banners work best if you play around a stalemate but they don't make creating the stalemate any easier which I think is the main problem with other unlocks that deserve a ban. They also provide a resolution to their own stalemates and some of the best counterplay to them is to not let the game get slow enough that they can build it (by doing stuff like aggressing the flank with ur combo, sending players behind etc). In that way they feel more equivalent to stuff like offclassing to sniper and spy where you're going to do it when there's already a stalemate rather than planning for one with it. It does take longer to build than a pick class does to get a pick so there's something in that though.

[quote=Mak][quote=Zesty] Beyond that, I think there's a few weapons that actually have good use cases that most people don't include on their lists (soldier backpacks, and either quickies or scottish resistance for getting stickies off a point).

[/quote]
I also don't think demo (or any class) should have access to projectiles that can destroy stickies, its rly obnoxiously strong in enabling cheese plays. Luckily no map in the map pool rewards it too much atm but yea.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that enabling cheese plays (where you're saccing for the point or deleting stickies to get through a choke) is inherently bad, it's just different. I do think that deleting stickies as they're coming out of a demo's gun so you can do damage to him and deny him from doing any is a pretty stupid mechanic though.


I think my general point is I kind of worry that we have a very fixed idea of exactly what the game should be. At this point everyone has figured out how that version of tf2 should be played and it's purely about execution which imo makes the game far less interesting than it has been in the past (along with certain balance changes that threw off the initial flow the game was designed around in the first place). It really hits home watching the streams of the old ESEA finals where they're still working out how to do all this stuff. I don't think unlocks in general really affect much at all, but I do think that wanting to ban stuff when you won't see it used in 95% of games and it's effect on gameplay is minimal or for one specific play is very much a symptom of that.
22
#22
-5 Frags +

current rgl whitelist except unban cow mangler pocket pistol and the conga taunt so i can dance with my teammates

current rgl whitelist except unban cow mangler pocket pistol and the conga taunt so i can dance with my teammates
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