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Granary
1
#1
0 Frags +

So granary has been swept under the bus by all na leagues currently offering 6's play (i haven't checked ugc nobody cares about) that and i personally find this outrageous. This map has been here since the start, and it provides a unique game that challenges teams to play differently. For this reason, I would like to contribute ideas and suggestions to possible edits that could be made to sway interest back to the map, even if many of us like the state that it is already in For starter's we should be using the proper version of Granary (rc8), made by the one and only Dagger. The focus should be with these edits to not introduce too much, that will change how the map is fundamentally made, but rather making these placements well made and executed. I am a beginner at map editing so my guess Is if someone wanted to start working on the map after we get a good idea of what we need to change or add to make it better, it might not be me (but who knows, to be honest). I will be making a very simple survey that will hopefully guide us to the basics of what people think about the map. The questions might not be great, and I accidentally deleted one (which I can't remember) but I kindly ask for everyone taking the survey to put their thoughts into it. https://forms.gle/QgTWirjUSubmMLgK8 . Feel free to contact me, or comment your ideas too.

So granary has been swept under the bus by [b]all na leagues currently offering 6's play[/b] (i haven't checked ugc nobody cares about) that and i personally find this outrageous. This map has been here since the start, and it provides a unique game that challenges teams to play differently. For this reason, I would like to contribute ideas and suggestions to possible edits that could be made to [b]sway interest back to the map[/b], even if many of us like the state that it is already in For starter's we should be using the [b]proper[/b] version of Granary (rc8), made by the one and only Dagger. The focus should be with these edits to not introduce too much, that will change how the [b]map is fundamentally made[/b], but rather making these placements well made and executed. I am a beginner at map editing so my guess Is if someone wanted to start working on the map after we get a good idea of what we need to change or add to make it better, it might not be me (but who knows, to be honest). I will be making a very simple survey that will hopefully guide us to the basics of what people think about the map. The questions might not be great, and I accidentally deleted one (which I can't remember) but I kindly ask for everyone taking the survey to put their thoughts into it. https://forms.gle/QgTWirjUSubmMLgK8 . Feel free to contact me, or comment your ideas too.
2
#2
-35 Frags +

This map is bad and doesn't deserve to be in the rotation anymore no ifs ands nor buts.

Not even dagger's edits made it good.

This map is bad and doesn't deserve to be in the rotation anymore no ifs ands nor buts.

Not even dagger's edits made it good.
3
#3
5 Frags +

Well, as we saw in botmode's survey results, both propaganda and badlands were over twice as much voted for being removed from the map pool, so I'm not sure if your opinion is an accurate representation of what people think. Thank you anyway.

Well, as we saw in botmode's survey results, both propaganda and badlands were over twice as much voted for being removed from the map pool, so I'm not sure if your opinion is an accurate representation of what people think. Thank you anyway.
4
#4
1 Frags +

i dont like granary, but i like propaganda and badlands even less

i dont like granary, but i like propaganda and badlands even less
5
#5
0 Frags +

Any map that has that many tight chokepoints will find it hard to survive in today's tf2. That would be the ultimate start, just making the transition areas between points more fluid and encouraging mobility and options like other popular maps do e.g process

Any map that has that many tight chokepoints will find it hard to survive in today's tf2. That would be the ultimate start, just making the transition areas between points more fluid and encouraging mobility and options like other popular maps do e.g process
6
#6
66 Frags +

the only reason people "dont like granary" is because the scout main mafia complained about it because its the one map where they cant be superhumans for no reason
dont @ me

the only reason people "dont like granary" is because the scout main mafia complained about it because its the one map where they cant be superhumans for no reason
dont @ me
7
#7
0 Frags +

I am also working on a set of images for ideas i have on how to change the map. Might take a couple of days though.

I am also working on a set of images for ideas i have on how to change the map. Might take a couple of days though.
8
#8
5 Frags +

when is cp chad coming out

when is cp chad coming out
9
#9
-4 Frags +

map is too flat

map is too flat
10
#10
34 Frags +

Granary is fine as a map. It's different to all other maps in the pool for a few reasons:

Soldier is the strongest class.
7 cp playstyle
Tight chokes make it play differently, easy to learn holds/stalemates.
Easy to push out of last if you win a fight on last as defenders, as well as easy to push to last if you win a fight on second.
Lots more flank potential than other maps.
Mid and last plays like an arena fight testing team coordination over strats.
Plenty of offclasses easily viable.
Very basic strategies like ubertrading very viable.

It is such a unique map, I never get why the people who complain about it are the same people who want a new, fresh map. Look at process and sunshine, nearly identical maps. Look at metalworks, the "worst" parts of granary are so much more apparent there, but people still prefer it for some reason.

The problem with granary is that people don't know how to play it, not that it's a bad map (same with product and badlands). Granary and badlands are the two maps that people knew how to play better 3-5 years ago than they do now. If you want to learn how to play it, watch demos from years ago, not recent ones. Sometimes TF2 requires patience, something that todays players lack. Which I don't really get, since it's a part of the game. Don't know why people play the game if they dont have patience

Granary is fine as a map. It's different to all other maps in the pool for a few reasons:

Soldier is the strongest class.
7 cp playstyle
Tight chokes make it play differently, easy to learn holds/stalemates.
Easy to push out of last if you win a fight on last as defenders, as well as easy to push to last if you win a fight on second.
Lots more flank potential than other maps.
Mid and last plays like an arena fight testing team coordination over strats.
Plenty of offclasses easily viable.
Very basic strategies like ubertrading very viable.

It is such a unique map, I never get why the people who complain about it are the same people who want a new, fresh map. Look at process and sunshine, nearly identical maps. Look at metalworks, the "worst" parts of granary are so much more apparent there, but people still prefer it for some reason.

The problem with granary is that people don't know how to play it, not that it's a bad map (same with product and badlands). Granary and badlands are the two maps that people knew how to play better 3-5 years ago than they do now. If you want to learn how to play it, watch demos from years ago, not recent ones. Sometimes TF2 requires patience, something that todays players lack. Which I don't really get, since it's a part of the game. Don't know why people play the game if they dont have patience
11
#11
19 Frags +

I'd say a good majority of players have never played prop yet voted against it. most people haven't played gran since voting in esea either, yet they vote against it too. I don't understand how you can have an opinion on a map if you haven't played at least (note I said at least) a couple of times to truly get a grasp on it.

I'm not saying that those who have played it and have the opinion of it being bad are wrong, but I am saying that many people haven't and voted against it since they don't want to learn a new map.

People will play worse on new maps because they haven't become accustomed to it. Many people blame their bad play on the map on the first playtest then never play it even though they didn't even have a chance to fully grasp the map. People tend to think maps are too big or have too many doors on first playtests because they aren't used to covering everything or know the good pathways or jumps to cover ground the best. Most of the maps tend to be as big or smaller than process. Koth maps tend to be as big or smaller than viaduct. Maps seem to have too many props because they haven't learned how to traverse the map backwards as they have with every other map.

I remember there was another thread regarding how to fix granary, and dagger released a new test version that literally fixed most of the issues that people agreed upon in the thread, and then most of those people complained about those changes that were made and how dagger should revert it back even though his changes were good changes based on feedback.

edit1: another good example of this is koth_bagel. Many people tried to play bagel like viaduct and called it a shit map. But that map isn't good for scouts like viaduct is. Every strong scout position is easily spammed by demo or easily contested by a soldier. flanks are indoors with more splash options and high ground awnings are smaller so its harder to maintain the high ground as a scout. As such you need to be much more soldier-centric, but when it was on pugchamp and picked, everyone thought it was so awful because they'd tank their scouts like viaduct and run them through the chokes of bagel and get annihilated.

TLDR: people don't want to learn how to play maps, yet vote against them. granary is fine just learn how to play it.

I'd say a good majority of players have never played prop yet voted against it. most people haven't played gran since voting in esea either, yet they vote against it too. I don't understand how you can have an opinion on a map if you haven't played at least (note I said at least) a couple of times to truly get a grasp on it.

I'm not saying that those who have played it and have the opinion of it being bad are wrong, but I am saying that many people haven't and voted against it since they don't want to learn a new map.

People will play worse on new maps because they haven't become accustomed to it. Many people blame their bad play on the map on the first playtest then never play it even though they didn't even have a chance to fully grasp the map. People tend to think maps are too big or have too many doors on first playtests because they aren't used to covering everything or know the good pathways or jumps to cover ground the best. Most of the maps tend to be as big or smaller than process. Koth maps tend to be as big or smaller than viaduct. Maps seem to have too many props because they haven't learned how to traverse the map backwards as they have with every other map.

I remember there was another thread regarding how to fix granary, and dagger released a new test version that literally fixed most of the issues that people agreed upon in the thread, and then most of those people complained about those changes that were made and how dagger should revert it back even though his changes were good changes based on feedback.

edit1: another good example of this is koth_bagel. Many people tried to play bagel like viaduct and called it a shit map. But that map isn't good for scouts like viaduct is. Every strong scout position is easily spammed by demo or easily contested by a soldier. flanks are indoors with more splash options and high ground awnings are smaller so its harder to maintain the high ground as a scout. As such you need to be much more soldier-centric, but when it was on pugchamp and picked, everyone thought it was so awful because they'd tank their scouts like viaduct and run them through the chokes of bagel and get annihilated.

TLDR: people don't want to learn how to play maps, yet vote against them. granary is fine just learn how to play it.
12
#12
-11 Frags +

the more small chokes and doors the worse the map is, seems pretty simple imo.

the more small chokes and doors the worse the map is, seems pretty simple imo.
13
#13
22 Frags +

granary is a good map you can all fuck right off

granary is a good map you can all fuck right off
14
#14
2 Frags +

Granary can be really fun if you take the time to learn how to play it but things like fights in lunchbox coming down to who has more health is really boring if u go into it with a solo mentality. Oftentimes as scout in stalemates there is 0 playmaking potential and you are watching doors because if you try and peek you will get annihilated by spam/traps, you can’t even support your sacs really as a scout.

However, there are also some really good flanks available at different times and you can’t just solo run in and get 2 picks by hitting meatshots so you have to wait and coordinate with your team which is cool kind of like badlands. I understand people’s frustration with the map if they’re just stuck in one of the cancer stalemates literally unable to do anything but watch a door but most of the issues I had with the map I realised I just needed to focus on playing with my team more.

IMO badlands is the same, I really think it can be the best map in the game but the thing is with granary and badlands you either get like an amazing game or an extreme stalemate but I find the more you know what you are doing and talk about it with your team beforehand the best parts of the map shine through.

Granary can be really fun if you take the time to learn how to play it but things like fights in lunchbox coming down to who has more health is really boring if u go into it with a solo mentality. Oftentimes as scout in stalemates there is 0 playmaking potential and you are watching doors because if you try and peek you will get annihilated by spam/traps, you can’t even support your sacs really as a scout.

However, there are also some really good flanks available at different times and you can’t just solo run in and get 2 picks by hitting meatshots so you have to wait and coordinate with your team which is cool kind of like badlands. I understand people’s frustration with the map if they’re just stuck in one of the cancer stalemates literally unable to do anything but watch a door but most of the issues I had with the map I realised I just needed to focus on playing with my team more.

IMO badlands is the same, I really think it can be the best map in the game but the thing is with granary and badlands you either get like an amazing game or an extreme stalemate but I find the more you know what you are doing and talk about it with your team beforehand the best parts of the map shine through.
15
#15
17 Frags +
sniffthe only reason people "dont like granary" is because the scout main mafia complained about it because its the one map where they cant be superhumans for no reason
dont @ me

this is true, fuck scouts

granary every week

[quote=sniff]the only reason people "dont like granary" is because the scout main mafia complained about it because its the one map where they cant be superhumans for no reason
dont @ me[/quote]

this is true, fuck scouts

granary every week
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#16
0 Frags +

granary pro rc8 was the best version the changes made since then are worse

granary pro rc8 was the best version the changes made since then are worse
17
#17
25 Frags +

granary is 100% better than prop and badlands

granary is 100% better than prop and badlands
18
#18
3 Frags +

pls

pls
19
#19
3 Frags +

Propaganda is DOGSHIT to play soldier on and i'm sick of the crybaby scout mains wanting every map they don't go 40/20 on with no effort removed. The meta already caters enough to scout mains. We don't need more insanely easy scout maps.

Propaganda is DOGSHIT to play soldier on and i'm sick of the crybaby scout mains wanting every map they don't go 40/20 on with no effort removed. The meta already caters enough to scout mains. We don't need more insanely easy scout maps.
20
#20
5 Frags +

granary is cool if ur team can play it :-)

granary is cool if ur team can play it :-)
21
#21
7 Frags +
ScrewballPropaganda is DOGSHIT to play soldier on and i'm sick of the crybaby scout mains wanting every map they don't go 40/20 on with no effort removed. The meta already caters enough to scout mains. We don't need more insanely easy scout maps.

prop is one of the best soldier maps if you know how to leave the ground

[quote=Screwball]Propaganda is DOGSHIT to play soldier on and i'm sick of the crybaby scout mains wanting every map they don't go 40/20 on with no effort removed. The meta already caters enough to scout mains. We don't need more insanely easy scout maps.[/quote]

prop is one of the best soldier maps if you know how to leave the ground
22
#22
1 Frags +
skeezprop is one of the best soldier maps if you know how to leave the ground

High bombing literally every fight while getting chipped to death by scouts isn't even slightly entertaining to me. As a pocket soldier propaganda and viaduct are my personal hell. Then again i don't like playing pocket as roamer with heals.

Maybe i'm just bitter because im way better at scout than soldier despite putting almost no effort into learning how to play scout and liking soldier a lot more but IMHO due to the scout speed medic buff scout has gotten to the point of making every other position less fun to play. Its honestly dumb and i have no idea how more people don't see it.

[quote=skeez]
prop is one of the best soldier maps if you know how to leave the ground[/quote]
High bombing literally every fight while getting chipped to death by scouts isn't even slightly entertaining to me. As a pocket soldier propaganda and viaduct are my personal hell. Then again i don't like playing pocket as roamer with heals.

Maybe i'm just bitter because im way better at scout than soldier despite putting almost no effort into learning how to play scout and liking soldier a lot more but IMHO due to the scout speed medic buff scout has gotten to the point of making every other position less fun to play. Its honestly dumb and i have no idea how more people don't see it.
23
#23
6 Frags +

I think Granary is one of the better maps in the current map rotation and it gives soldiers and smart players a chance to shine. I think a lot of dm heavy players (especially scouts) don't like how they get terrible stats on the map because for once soldiers have the advantage in a lot of the areas. This means that you often need to play scout a little differently but there is still a whole lot of potential to make plays and you can win rounds for your team by making smart flank plays or co-ordinated backcaps rather than relying on pure dm.

I think Granary is one of the better maps in the current map rotation and it gives soldiers and smart players a chance to shine. I think a lot of dm heavy players (especially scouts) don't like how they get terrible stats on the map because for once soldiers have the advantage in a lot of the areas. This means that you often need to play scout a little differently but there is still a whole lot of potential to make plays and you can win rounds for your team by making smart flank plays or co-ordinated backcaps rather than relying on pure dm.
24
#24
2 Frags +
BuffMcStrongHuge "stuff"
TLDR: people don't want to learn how to play maps, yet vote against them. granary is fine just learn how to play it.

This just goes to show why we should give higher level players more voting power regarding map pools and whitelisting imo...

[quote=BuffMcStrongHuge] "stuff"
TLDR: people don't want to learn how to play maps, yet vote against them. granary is fine just learn how to play it.[/quote]

This just goes to show why we should give higher level players more voting power regarding map pools and whitelisting imo...
25
#25
0 Frags +

The map is fine as it is

It is not as fun to play it on pugs/lobbies as the other standard maps because of fast rolls when teams are imbalanced, lots of blind spots, more reliance on teammates protecting each other (demo/med at mid) and quicker death as soon as something isn't held properly.

Also propaganda is heavily disliked because it's the newest one, so for reasons very different to blands/granary.

The map is fine as it is

It is not as fun to play it on pugs/lobbies as the other standard maps because of fast rolls when teams are imbalanced, lots of blind spots, more reliance on teammates protecting each other (demo/med at mid) and quicker death as soon as something isn't held properly.

Also propaganda is heavily disliked because it's the newest one, so for reasons very different to blands/granary.
26
#26
2 Frags +

After many years calling out the scout illuminati and be called crazy, I'm glad people are slowly seeing the light.

After many years calling out the scout illuminati and be called crazy, I'm glad people are slowly seeing the light.
27
#27
-2 Frags +

Just move the 2nd point outside so it stops the entire area from being a stalematey two-parter and make it so that the combo can't watch both garage and choke. Right now they are so close together that the concept of a flank pretty much ceases to exist in a 2nd/mid stalemate. The stalemates on this map are horrendous, there is a reason golden caps happen more frequently and take very long usually.

Just move the 2nd point outside so it stops the entire area from being a stalematey two-parter and make it so that the combo can't watch both garage and choke. Right now they are so close together that the concept of a flank pretty much ceases to exist in a 2nd/mid stalemate. The stalemates on this map are horrendous, there is a reason golden caps happen more frequently and take very long usually.
28
#28
1 Frags +
Voxi This just goes to show why we should give higher level players more voting power regarding map pools and whitelisting imo...

higher level players are just as guilty of the same thing regarding not trying maps out though. There were quite a few invite players who were asked to playtest propaganda before its addition to esea, Lucrative hosted New map pugs and publicly posted on tftv however not that many invite players actually frequent the pugs to test the new maps. There is a very select group of people that actually religiously tryout new maps. and then people don't feel like they had representation when a map is added and they don't like how the map plays. Recently new map pugs were hosted for a new version of granary, yet not many invite players actually showed up to test it. This same concept can also be applied to whitelisting. only a select amount of invite players actually take part in actively testing the weapons to see if they are actually broken.

[quote=Voxi] This just goes to show why we should give higher level players more voting power regarding map pools and whitelisting imo...[/quote]

higher level players are just as guilty of the same thing regarding not trying maps out though. There were quite a few invite players who were asked to playtest propaganda before its addition to esea, Lucrative hosted New map pugs and publicly posted on tftv however not that many invite players actually frequent the pugs to test the new maps. There is a very select group of people that actually religiously tryout new maps. and then people don't feel like they had representation when a map is added and they don't like how the map plays. Recently new map pugs were hosted for a new version of granary, yet not many invite players actually showed up to test it. This same concept can also be applied to whitelisting. only a select amount of invite players actually take part in actively testing the weapons to see if they are actually broken.
29
#29
6 Frags +

But guys its not pretty! It doesnt have green grass or bright colours, poop map :(

But guys its not pretty! It doesnt have green grass or bright colours, poop map :(
30
#30
-3 Frags +

Since when does granary allow for interesting play? I'm legitimately confused. I can understand when people say it offers different play, but interesting? Each point has 2-3 chokes that are very close together and easy to cover. The only exception is holding last at uber disad so you can't play close on the pipe. Every even match I've ever played or watched on granary boils down to one team winning mid, getting stalemated in yard if they didn't catch the med, and then waiting around for someone to screw up. In an even match, more than any other map, the team that makes the first move is more likely to be punished for it. Granary is the ultimate "wait for your opponent to get bored" map. Even cool flank routes like dropdown only work consistently when you've bored the enemy team into forgetting to watch it. Very, very occasionally you might catch a team as they walk under you pushing through garage, but I've only seen that work a handful of times, and it requires pretty good scouting and communication.

I've got no problems with how each individual point fight plays out. The problem is initiating those fights. I'd have no problem with 7cp either, if granary was actually a 7cp map, but in reality its so stalematey it just feels that way. In NA I think we're spoiled by almost every team playing fairly aggressive, to the point where most people would rather push than wait around if there's any chance at all the push will work. Still, you take two teams that are evenly matched, and as soon as one team goes up a round, the game slows way, way the fuck down. It's not a problem exclusive to granary, but it's definitely more pronounced.

Since when does granary allow for interesting play? I'm legitimately confused. I can understand when people say it offers different play, but interesting? Each point has 2-3 chokes that are very close together and easy to cover. The only exception is holding last at uber disad so you can't play close on the pipe. Every even match I've ever played or watched on granary boils down to one team winning mid, getting stalemated in yard if they didn't catch the med, and then waiting around for someone to screw up. In an even match, more than any other map, the team that makes the first move is more likely to be punished for it. Granary is the ultimate "wait for your opponent to get bored" map. Even cool flank routes like dropdown only work consistently when you've bored the enemy team into forgetting to watch it. Very, very occasionally you might catch a team as they walk under you pushing through garage, but I've only seen that work a handful of times, and it requires pretty good scouting and communication.

I've got no problems with how each individual point fight plays out. The problem is initiating those fights. I'd have no problem with 7cp either, if granary was actually a 7cp map, but in reality its so stalematey it just feels that way. In NA I think we're spoiled by almost every team playing fairly aggressive, to the point where most people would rather push than wait around if there's any chance at all the push will work. Still, you take two teams that are evenly matched, and as soon as one team goes up a round, the game slows way, way the fuck down. It's not a problem exclusive to granary, but it's definitely more pronounced.
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