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Announcing RGL.gg Sixes - Season 1
121
#121
31 Frags +

imagine seeing sigafoo making a league and thinking that you calling him out for being an idiot (rightfully so) would actually change anything
this man has been called an idiot for the past few years on the forums and changed fuck all
he legit banned the best team in his league for winning too much
how the fuck do you expect ANYTHING from him?

imagine seeing sigafoo making a league and thinking that you calling him out for being an idiot (rightfully so) would actually change anything
this man has been called an idiot for the past few years on the forums and changed fuck all
he legit banned the best team in his league for winning too much
how the fuck do you expect ANYTHING from him?
122
#122
4 Frags +
plusProtonalso @ phantom honestly i really disagree with the offclassing thing. literally every time I've played in the same division as one of those invite player offclass teams by the time I've played them in a match they're on their mains and scrimming normal days lol.

I think that the sandbagging rules are a good step in the right direction, but I still don't see the point of banning people from offclassing in lower divisions. Wouldn't it be rather simple to just ban players from playing their mains in lower divisions? If they switch back to their mains the other team could just report them and get a free win.

However this could cause some issues as the admins would have to decide what players are too good on what classes, but with situations like phantom it hardly makes sense to ban him from "sandbagging" on demo in lower divisions just because he can play medic at a higher level.

[quote=plusProton]
also @ phantom honestly i really disagree with the offclassing thing. literally every time I've played in the same division as one of those invite player offclass teams by the time I've played them in a match they're on their mains and scrimming normal days lol.[/quote]

I think that the sandbagging rules are a good step in the right direction, but I still don't see the point of banning people from offclassing in lower divisions. Wouldn't it be rather simple to just ban players from playing their mains in lower divisions? If they switch back to their mains the other team could just report them and get a free win.

However this could cause some issues as the admins would have to decide what players are too good on what classes, but with situations like phantom it hardly makes sense to ban him from "sandbagging" on demo in lower divisions just because he can play medic at a higher level.
123
#123
15 Frags +
EasyEI think that the sandbagging rules are a good step in the right direction, but I still don't see the point of banning people from offclassing in lower divisions. Wouldn't it be rather simple to just ban players from playing their mains in lower divisions? If they switch back to their mains the other team could just report them and get a free win.

However this could cause some issues as the admins would have to decide what players are too good on what classes, but with situations like phantom it hardly makes sense to ban him from "sandbagging" on demo in lower divisions just because he can play medic at a higher level.

I think our article explains our position well:

RGLA desire to off-class to avoid being called sandbaggers is something players regularly request. However, the thing to remember about the overwhelming majority of teams with off-classing players is that they will only off-class... until they lose. Almost every “off-classing” team will not finish mid-table because they are there “just to have fun;” almost always they either switch back to their mains mid season once they start to lose, or make playoffs just to switch back to their mains and try hard.

When ranking teams we don’t take “off-classing” into effect very much and rank teams based mostly in what they can do at their full potential.

To expand on this...
The way that it works is that we look at the quality of a roster, separate from the claims of off classing and place you on that. So if you make a high level Invite roster, but everyone is "off-classing" then we'd say you can off class in Invite all you want. If you are an Invite player and you have a roster with a mix of skill level. Then it'd make more sense for us to place them down a div into Advance.

And if your team of off-classing players can perform at a mid-level in that same div that they're playing in. Why should they be dropped down a div just so they can win it? If off-classing is truly just a fun season, then winning shouldn't be as important and a mid-table finish can still get you into playoffs.

Because when it comes to off-classing/sand bagging, if you fuck up and allow someone in too low of a div. You've fucked over an entire division. If you placed a player too high, you fucked over one person/team and you can always adjust for them next season. And given how much sandbagging has been accepted and prevalent in NA leagues prior to us. I think taking a more cautious approach in favor of the many, not the few, is the better way to go.

[quote=EasyE]I think that the sandbagging rules are a good step in the right direction, but I still don't see the point of banning people from offclassing in lower divisions. Wouldn't it be rather simple to just ban players from playing their mains in lower divisions? If they switch back to their mains the other team could just report them and get a free win.

However this could cause some issues as the admins would have to decide what players are too good on what classes, but with situations like phantom it hardly makes sense to ban him from "sandbagging" on demo in lower divisions just because he can play medic at a higher level.[/quote]

I think our article explains our position well:
[Quote=RGL]A desire to off-class to avoid being called sandbaggers is something players regularly request. However, the thing to remember about the overwhelming majority of teams with off-classing players is that they will only off-class... until they lose. Almost every “off-classing” team will not finish mid-table because they are there “just to have fun;” almost always they either switch back to their mains mid season once they start to lose, or make playoffs just to switch back to their mains and try hard.

When ranking teams we don’t take “off-classing” into effect very much and rank teams based mostly in what they can do at their full potential.[/quote]

To expand on this...
The way that it works is that we look at the quality of a roster, separate from the claims of off classing and place you on that. So if you make a high level Invite roster, but everyone is "off-classing" then we'd say you can off class in Invite all you want. If you are an Invite player and you have a roster with a mix of skill level. Then it'd make more sense for us to place them down a div into Advance.

And if your team of off-classing players can perform at a mid-level in that same div that they're playing in. Why should they be dropped down a div just so they can win it? If off-classing is truly just a fun season, then winning shouldn't be as important and a mid-table finish can still get you into playoffs.

Because when it comes to off-classing/sand bagging, if you fuck up and allow someone in too low of a div. You've fucked over an entire division. If you placed a player too high, you fucked over one person/team and you can always adjust for them next season. And given how much sandbagging has been accepted and prevalent in NA leagues prior to us. I think taking a more cautious approach in favor of the many, not the few, is the better way to go.
124
#124
1 Frags +
Phantomyea so as I said admin discretion can be used here if the team starts try harding they can be disqualified

oh whoops missed that. makes sense to me

[quote=Phantom]yea so as I said admin discretion can be used here if the team starts try harding they can be disqualified[/quote]
oh whoops missed that. makes sense to me
125
#125
-2 Frags +

kinda dont agree with the offclass thing simply because i know people who offclass in lower divs because they're just not as good at those classes as they are on their mains

this is definitely something that needs to be handled on a case by case basis because not everyone is the type of person to switch back to their main and its pretty unfair to them for just wanting to play in a div where they actually should be playing on that class

there are a lot of people who do switch back, but there's just as many who actually just want to round themselves out and finish the season as they started and that's not something that should be overlooked

kinda dont agree with the offclass thing simply because i know people who offclass in lower divs because they're just not as good at those classes as they are on their mains

this is definitely something that needs to be handled on a case by case basis because not everyone is the type of person to switch back to their main and its pretty unfair to them for just wanting to play in a div where they actually should be playing on that class

there are a lot of people who do switch back, but there's just as many who actually just want to round themselves out and finish the season as they started and that's not something that should be overlooked
126
#126
18 Frags +

just do what etf2l does and don't allow people to switch to their mains

just do what etf2l does and don't allow people to switch to their mains
127
#127
15 Frags +

I can't believe this is happening to the game i love

I can't believe this is happening to the game i love
128
#128
5 Frags +

I can't help but feel like if you're taking this much of a hands on approach you should acknowledge the nuances to some situations rather than what appears to be following rules and guidelines strictly

ESEA: tf2? What's that?
RGL: We've decided the map pool and whitelist without any input from the masses, we have these black and white sandbag rules, these new poaching rules, and we will decide what division you get to play in for you.

It's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly

I can't help but feel like if you're taking this much of a hands on approach you should acknowledge the nuances to some situations rather than what appears to be following rules and guidelines strictly

ESEA: tf2? What's that?
RGL: We've decided the map pool and whitelist without any input from the masses, we have these black and white sandbag rules, these new poaching rules, and we will decide what division you get to play in for you.

It's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly
129
#129
9 Frags +
nazarajust do what etf2l does and don't allow people to switch to their mains

to be fair, I'm pretty sure that is a lot of tedious work on the part of the admins, and it's hard enough to keep admins as it is (look at everything the ugc admins had to put up with, doxxing attempts, players posting child pornography on the forums in an attempt to get rid of their adsense money, etc...)

[quote=nazara]just do what etf2l does and don't allow people to switch to their mains[/quote]
to be fair, I'm pretty sure that is a [i]lot[/i] of tedious work on the part of the admins, and it's hard enough to keep admins as it is (look at everything the ugc admins had to put up with, doxxing attempts, players posting child pornography on the forums in an attempt to get rid of their adsense money, etc...)
130
#130
-2 Frags +
PhantomI can't help but feel like if you're taking this much of a hands on approach you should acknowledge the nuances to some situations rather than what appears to be following rules and guidelines strictly

ESEA: tf2? What's that?
RGL: We've decided the map pool and whitelist without any input from the masses, we have these black and white sandbag rules, these new poaching rules, and we will decide what division you get to play in for you.

It's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly

Jarring for ESEA only players

But this is how RGL has handled all their leagues for the past ~3 years and those formats seem to be doing fine so I'm inclined to trust it

[quote=Phantom]I can't help but feel like if you're taking this much of a hands on approach you should acknowledge the nuances to some situations rather than what appears to be following rules and guidelines strictly

ESEA: tf2? What's that?
RGL: We've decided the map pool and whitelist without any input from the masses, we have these black and white sandbag rules, these new poaching rules, and we will decide what division you get to play in for you.

It's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly[/quote]

Jarring for ESEA only players

But this is how RGL has handled all their leagues for the past ~3 years and those formats seem to be doing fine so I'm inclined to trust it
131
#131
-1 Frags +

question,

if esea can barely get 16 teams for im / 9 teams for invite, how does RGL expect to fill up im, main, advanced, and invite.

is it just gonna be 9 teams each where the bottom teams for each division is just clearly worse than the top? or will u realize that it wont happen, and merge the divisions.

question,

if esea can barely get 16 teams for im / 9 teams for invite, how does RGL expect to fill up im, main, advanced, and invite.

is it just gonna be 9 teams each where the bottom teams for each division is just clearly worse than the top? or will u realize that it wont happen, and merge the divisions.
132
#132
10 Frags +
plusProtonPhantomIt's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly
Jarring for ESEA only players

ESEA players are the group that is going to decide whether or not this league fails. Who cares what other groups think in this instance, ESEA is a huge transitioning playerbase.

[quote=plusProton][quote=Phantom]
It's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly[/quote]

Jarring for ESEA only players[/quote]

ESEA players are the group that is going to decide whether or not this league fails. Who cares what other groups think in this instance, ESEA is a huge transitioning playerbase.
133
#133
-7 Frags +
daybraekplusProtonPhantomIt's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly
Jarring for ESEA only players

ESEA players are the group that is going to decide whether or not this league fails. Who cares what other groups think in this instance, ESEA is a huge transitioning playerbase.

My point is that rgl's methods seem to work and actually lead to growth in their formats, yes it's different from ESEA but when it comes to ESEA different is probably better

[quote=daybraek][quote=plusProton][quote=Phantom]
It's a big jump, pretty jarring honestly[/quote]

Jarring for ESEA only players[/quote]

ESEA players are the group that is going to decide whether or not this league fails. Who cares what other groups think in this instance, ESEA is a huge transitioning playerbase.[/quote]
My point is that rgl's methods seem to work and actually lead to growth in their formats, yes it's different from ESEA but when it comes to ESEA different is probably better
134
#134
15 Frags +

Ah yes, because prolander and no restriction sixes have had an EXTREMELY successful run in attempting to change the 6's meta, their original league goal.

Show Content
The main reason (among possible gameplay issues) why people are upset with how RGL is approaching this new 6's league v.s. their other leagues, is that Sigafoo is deliberately trying to kill TFTV production and community motivation in favor for their own website and monopolized format. Think about it, since when has competitive 6's (at least in NA) not had a home on TFTV? All the discussions, including ESEA discussions have run through here, why should we change that now? In order for people to be more accepting of this league, Sigafoo MUST work with TFTV, because nobody wants to watch a bunch of highlander players cast invite 6's matches.

People insist on other "new" leagues, but what other league is going to be able to step up the funding of Sigafoo? Sidular? ESL? I don't think so.

TLDR; For the sake of competitive TF2's future and success, Sigafoo has to be willing to cooperate with TFTV and have a looser hand on major gameplay changes (map pool, match time, etc.), at LEAST for the first 2 seasons.

Ah yes, because prolander and no restriction sixes have had an EXTREMELY successful run in attempting to change the 6's meta, their original league goal.

[spoiler]The main reason (among possible gameplay issues) why people are upset with how RGL is approaching this new 6's league v.s. their other leagues, is that Sigafoo is deliberately trying to kill TFTV production and community motivation in favor for their own website and monopolized format. Think about it, since when has competitive 6's (at least in NA) not had a home on TFTV? All the discussions, including ESEA discussions have run through here, why should we change that now? In order for people to be more accepting of this league, Sigafoo MUST work with TFTV, because nobody wants to watch a bunch of highlander players cast invite 6's matches.

People insist on other "new" leagues, but what other league is going to be able to step up the funding of Sigafoo? Sidular? ESL? I don't think so.
[/spoiler]

TLDR; For the sake of competitive TF2's future and success, Sigafoo has to be willing to cooperate with TFTV and have a looser hand on major gameplay changes (map pool, match time, etc.), at LEAST for the first 2 seasons.
135
#135
-7 Frags +

What does the 6s meta have to do with anything?

Those leagues get good numbers (more players than ESEA), so it's hardly like sigafoo is killing them

What does the 6s meta have to do with anything?

Those leagues get good numbers (more players than ESEA), so it's hardly like sigafoo is killing them
136
#136
25 Frags +

Pure numbers don't mean anything, how serious people are is what matters. UGC had the largest player base for years yet it was still considered a total meme by just about everyone.

Scream why should we change that now? In order for people to be more accepting of this league, Sigafoo MUST work with TFTV, because nobody wants to watch a bunch of highlander players cast invite 6's matches.

TLDR; For the sake of competitive TF2's future and success, Sigafoo has to be willing to cooperate with TFTV and have a looser hand on major gameplay changes (map pool, match time, etc.), at LEAST for the first 2 seasons.

Never going to happen because sigafoos vision of what RGL should be is more important than what the community actually wants. Much in the same way it is for banny, hence why this is literally the first time where the banny group has some actual power and you see all of these super bizarre and upending changes coming into play. It went from the invite Illuminati making decisions to the banny Illuminati ignoring the rest of invite and making deductions.

Pure numbers don't mean anything, how serious people are is what matters. UGC had the largest player base for years yet it was still considered a total meme by just about everyone.

[quote=Scream] why should we change that now? In order for people to be more accepting of this league, Sigafoo MUST work with TFTV, because nobody wants to watch a bunch of highlander players cast invite 6's matches.


TLDR; For the sake of competitive TF2's future and success, Sigafoo has to be willing to cooperate with TFTV and have a looser hand on major gameplay changes (map pool, match time, etc.), at LEAST for the first 2 seasons.[/quote]

Never going to happen because sigafoos vision of what RGL should be is more important than what the community actually wants. Much in the same way it is for banny, hence why this is literally the first time where the banny group has some actual power and you see all of these super bizarre and upending changes coming into play. It went from the invite Illuminati making decisions to the banny Illuminati ignoring the rest of invite and making deductions.
137
#137
6 Frags +
Tino_

https://i.imgur.com/lxRJEbY.png

[quote=Tino_][/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/lxRJEbY.png[/img]
138
#138
33 Frags +
Tino_
Never going to happen because sigafoos vision of what RGL should be is more important than what the community actually wants. Much in the same way it is for banny, hence why this is literally the first time where the banny group has some actual power and you see all of these super bizarre and upending changes coming into play. It went from the invite Illuminati making decisions to the banny Illuminati ignoring the rest of invite and making deductions.

DING DING DING

https://puu.sh/DEN3c/02a7bb1bc6.jpg

If you look at this image daf posted of the meeting, four of the seven people involved have shown to share similar visions and ideas of how to progress the game (not arguing whether or not I agree with those ideas)

And I know for sure that one of those three remaining that don't share all the same ideas had almost all of his input and suggestions ignored or changed grossly in the final rules document that was released

[quote=Tino_]

Never going to happen because [u]sigafoos vision of what RGL should be is more important than what the community actually wants. Much in the same way it is for banny, hence why this is literally the first time where the banny group has some actual power and you see all of these super bizarre and upending changes coming into play.[/u] It went from the invite Illuminati making decisions to the banny Illuminati ignoring the rest of invite and making deductions.[/quote]

DING DING DING

[img]https://puu.sh/DEN3c/02a7bb1bc6.jpg[/img]

If you look at this image daf posted of the meeting, four of the seven people involved have shown to share similar visions and ideas of how to progress the game (not arguing whether or not I agree with those ideas)

And I know for sure that one of those three remaining that don't share all the same ideas had almost all of his input and suggestions ignored or changed grossly in the final rules document that was released
139
#139
20 Frags +

if only rando was here

if only rando was here
140
#140
2 Frags +

im not sure if its just me but the sandbagging rules seem a little too harsh in comparison to eseas nonexistant one. this seems almost like the polar opposite and from what i understand it seems to force players to play in the same division of their peak gameplay. i dont know alot about etf2l but i saw a thread on here about the way etf2l enforces sandbagging (here is how they do it if anyone is interested) and i think this is the proper way to do it, to just not allow these players to play their best classes at a lower division, because otherwise there is literally no incentive to not play ur best class and u r severely punished for not playing ur main...

im not sure if its just me but the sandbagging rules seem a little too harsh in comparison to eseas nonexistant one. this seems almost like the polar opposite and from what i understand it seems to force players to play in the same division of their peak gameplay. i dont know alot about etf2l but i saw a thread on here about the way etf2l enforces sandbagging [url=http://etf2l.org/forum/league/topic-35515/page-1/](here is how they do it if anyone is interested)[/url] and i think this is the proper way to do it, to just not allow these players to play their best classes at a lower division, because otherwise there is literally no incentive to not play ur best class and u r severely punished for not playing ur main...
141
#141
-22 Frags +

Lets go over what actual changes people will feel when they go to play the game in RGL compared to last season of esea:

1.) Medics can use the sollemn vow if they remember to equip it and look at enemies
2.) Instead of banning badlands and granary every game, kalinka and clearcut can be banned every game
3.) Sandbagging gets a crack down for the first time in NA 6s

Apocalypse now. The game is ruined.

Lets go over what actual changes people will feel when they go to play the game in RGL compared to last season of esea:

1.) Medics can use the sollemn vow if they remember to equip it and look at enemies
2.) Instead of banning badlands and granary every game, kalinka and clearcut can be banned every game
3.) Sandbagging gets a crack down for the first time in NA 6s

Apocalypse now. The game is ruined.
142
#142
27 Frags +
Daffodil-1.) Medics can use the sollemn vow if they remember to equip it and look at enemies

Instead of using the gobal whitelist, which afaik gets very few complaints unlike the current ESEA one.

Daffodil-2.) Instead of banning badlands and granary every game, kalinka and clearcut can be banned every game

Missed opportunity to have a gobal map pool.

Daffodil-3.) Sandbagging gets a crack down for the first time in NA 6s

As far as I can tell the RGL admins have chosen a very lazy way to implement this, I can only speak from a EU point of view but it doesn't take very long to figure out what classes to restrict people from playing if they want to play in a lower tier.

Also why does the RGL site have no way of showing what players have actually played in official matches?

[quote=Daffodil-]
1.) Medics can use the sollemn vow if they remember to equip it and look at enemies
[/quote]

Instead of using the gobal whitelist, which afaik gets very few complaints unlike the current ESEA one.

[quote=Daffodil-]
2.) Instead of banning badlands and granary every game, kalinka and clearcut can be banned every game
[/quote]

Missed opportunity to have a gobal map pool.

[quote=Daffodil-]
3.) Sandbagging gets a crack down for the first time in NA 6s
[/quote]

As far as I can tell the RGL admins have chosen a very lazy way to implement this, I can only speak from a EU point of view but it doesn't take very long to figure out what classes to restrict people from playing if they want to play in a lower tier.

Also why does the RGL site have no way of showing what players have actually played in official matches?
143
#143
49 Frags +
Daffodil-Just for the record, sigafoo also attempted to get a representative from the paddie/corsa team as well.

as far as i know, neither of us were contacted

[quote=Daffodil-]Just for the record, sigafoo also attempted to get a representative from the paddie/corsa team as well.[/quote]

as far as i know, neither of us were contacted
144
#144
41 Frags +
corsaDaffodil-Just for the record, sigafoo also attempted to get a representative from the paddie/corsa team as well.
as far as i know, neither of us were contacted

Neither was anyone from Cafe Monsters

They only seemed to invite a very specific group of people to these meetings :~)

[quote=corsa][quote=Daffodil-]Just for the record, sigafoo also attempted to get a representative from the paddie/corsa team as well.[/quote]

as far as i know, neither of us were contacted[/quote]

Neither was anyone from Cafe Monsters

They only seemed to invite a very specific group of people to these meetings :~)
145
#145
-55 Frags +
corsaDaffodil-Just for the record, sigafoo also attempted to get a representative from the paddie/corsa team as well.
as far as i know, neither of us were contacted

I didn't contact every team in Invite, as generally more voices don't always make the decisions better. Often too many voices can stifle decisions because too many people trying to express an opinion. "Too many cooks in a kitchen."

I contacted the leaders that I've already worked with in the past to some degree. Which was b4nny and Lucrative.

Daf is a long time player in RGL and ESEA and I've had conversations with him in the past about various TF2 things. So I added him.

Then I wanted three more leaders to balance out that. I basically just went top down on rankings from ESEA Invite. I saw Ascent, so I reached out to Ma3la. Reached out to ford gaming which directed me to Sandblast. I reached out to Garbuglio (cafe monsters), who declined taking part in it. So then I added Space Pirates, who directed me to Shamoo.

Pretty straight forward, used the contacts I already knew and reached out to ones I didn't to fill in the gaps.

[quote=corsa][quote=Daffodil-]Just for the record, sigafoo also attempted to get a representative from the paddie/corsa team as well.[/quote]

as far as i know, neither of us were contacted[/quote]

I didn't contact every team in Invite, as generally more voices don't always make the decisions better. Often too many voices can stifle decisions because too many people trying to express an opinion. "Too many cooks in a kitchen."

I contacted the leaders that I've already worked with in the past to some degree. Which was b4nny and Lucrative.

Daf is a long time player in RGL and ESEA and I've had conversations with him in the past about various TF2 things. So I added him.

Then I wanted three more leaders to balance out that. I basically just went top down on rankings from ESEA Invite. I saw Ascent, so I reached out to Ma3la. Reached out to ford gaming which directed me to Sandblast. I reached out to Garbuglio (cafe monsters), who declined taking part in it. So then I added Space Pirates, who directed me to Shamoo.

Pretty straight forward, used the contacts I already knew and reached out to ones I didn't to fill in the gaps.
146
#146
42 Frags +

And u didnt hit up paddie or corsa who have been playing invite for like 4 years?????????? wtf lol

And u didnt hit up paddie or corsa who have been playing invite for like 4 years?????????? wtf lol
147
#147
44 Frags +
sigafooMy aim was to get about 6 people who have been long time ESEA Invite players.

Congrats, you got 3.

[quote=sigafoo]My aim was to get about 6 people who have been long time ESEA Invite players.[/quote]

Congrats, you got 3.
148
#148
cp_granary_pro
4 Frags +

why wasnt i invited to the meeting >:(
frigg u sigafoo !

why wasnt i invited to the meeting >:(
frigg u sigafoo !
149
#149
11 Frags +
sigafooOften too many voices can stifle decisions because too many people trying to express an opinion. ".

highlander comms ;____;

[quote=sigafoo]
Often too many voices can stifle decisions because too many people trying to express an opinion. ".[/quote]

highlander comms ;____;
150
#150
54 Frags +

i like how u stopped adding invite leaders after 3 so that ur echo chamber of 4 people agreeing with you was the majority

i like how u stopped adding invite leaders after 3 so that ur echo chamber of 4 people agreeing with you was the majority
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