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Global Whitelist Data Gathering
1
#1
ETF2L
0 Frags +

Hello everyone.

We're trying out a new thing where we're having a generalized form for gathering some base data for future changes of the global whitelist. This is just for some of the weapons that currently get brought up frequently but if the feedback we receive through this is good we will most likely expand on it and keep on doing it.

https://forms.gle/z3psYDLbf9YUDjQL7

In order to make sure that everybody has some rough outline of what the pro and cons of the weapons are there is a rough description and arguments that have been listed by players and admins that have chipped into the conversation so far.

------------------------------------------------------
Below are pro and con arguments and the current status in the whitelist, This status has not changed yet.
------------------------------------------------------

Winger (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Winger:
You have to give up a lot of your clip size (12 -> 5) for an additional height gain in your jumps when held out. The shots also do a small additional amount of damage.

Pro and con arguments

  • The reduction in clip side causes the secundairy to lose a chunk of its usefullness in fights. The small increase in damage does not make up for it.
  • Giving additional jumping height to scout, which is already considered the strongest class, is overkill considering the class's base movement.

Atomizer (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Atomizer:
The bug where you didn't need to hold the weapon out fully to use the jump is gone.
You can do a third jump when you hold the weapon out but switching to the weapons is 50% slower then to other weapons.

Pro and con arguments

  • The scout that runs this weapon is no longer able to build uber with his medic.
  • Pulling out the weapon will allow you to get onto better highground but you need to make yourself uncapable of shooting for a while to do so.
  • An additional jump doesn't grant you that much extra height considering that the Winger is already allowed.
  • Giving additional jumping height to scout, which is already considered the strongest class, is overkill considering the class's base movement.

Cow Mangler 5000 (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Cow%20Mangler%205000
You gain unlimited ammunition and a gimmick alt-fire but you deal 20% less damage to buildings.

Pro and con arguments

  • Having unlimited ammo makes the weapon just a straight upgrade. The decreased damage to buildings is negligible.
  • Having unlimited ammo makes holding pure spam battles.
  • The alt-fire is just a gimmick but due to it putting people on fire and mini-critting, which removes damage fall-off, it is an easy spam option that can one-shots light classes.
  • It makes the game more boring and easier.

Direct Hit (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Direct_Hit
You have borderline no splash damage but your rockets are way faster and deal 25% more damage. You also minicrit airborne players.

Pro and con arguments

  • The removal of splash damage and increase of rocket speed causes the weapon to be more aim based compared to other rocket launchers.
  • Your usefullness in spam fights decreases heavily.
  • The damage increase allows for one-shotting light classes.
  • The aim required at mid to close range is limited.

Mantreads (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mantreads
The bug in regards to them has been fixed. They haven't been tested or ran after they got updated.
They allow for better strafing and cause you to be knocked around very little while in the air. You also deal damage when landing on somebodies head.

Pro and con arguments

  • They are very situational.
  • You're giving up the gunboats to run these.
  • The knockback reduction is too big and you can't avoid people bombing you with this.
  • They would add an interesting dynamic for last bombing in on last.

Dragons Fury (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Dragon's%20Fury
This weapon hasn't been allowed in the global whitelist before.
Rather then a consistent stream of flames you shoot out a flame "ball" that puts people on fire temporarily. Hitting people that are on fire will do increased damage. If you where to hit every shot you would do more damage then with a traditional flame thrower. Airblasting cooldown is increased by 50% making the weapon not as strong in defensive scenarios.

Pro and con arguments

  • The slower airblast cooldown makes the weapon rather weak in the main usage of pyro in 6v6. Which is holding lasts.
  • The increased damage compared to the other flame throwers is limited and also requires the user to hit all of the attacks.
  • The "ball" that it shoots blocks out vision, but so do normal flame throwers.

Loch'n load (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Loch-n-Load
You have a slower clip size, explosion radius and the pipes shatter on touching a surface but your projectiles are faster and do more damage to buildings.

Pro and con arguments

  • The weapon has less clip size and due to the lack of rollers it can be used less it spam down chockes
  • The increased projectile speed make the pipes easy to hit directly

Iron Bomber (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Iron_Bomber
Your rollers bounce very little, have a smaller explosion radius and explode 30% faster. The projectile is also slightly faster with how the source engine works.

Pro and con arguments

  • The difference is very minimal.
  • The weapon is a straight upgrade due to you being able to place your rollers more consistently as well as due to the non-mentioned projectile speed increase.
  • The projectiles are harder to see.

Crusaders Crossbow (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Crusader%27s_Crossbow
Ah shit here we go again.
You can heal people for 75-150 health with a fast moving projectile. The weapon reloads automatically even when not held out. It also still builds slight amounts of ubercharge.

Pro and con arguments

  • It makes medic a more interesting class
  • Coordination within fights to get arrowed quickly can allow for a serious advantage
  • The coordination that is required is limited and just people yelling "ARROW"
  • It makes it so that playing off of damage is very difficult
  • It makes the game slower and more boring

Solemn Vow (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Solemn_Vow
It allows medics to see the health boxes of the enemy team the same as a spy can.

Pro and con arguments

  • It allows for a medic to call out focus calls based off of what health he sees on enemy players.
  • It removes the need of ubercharge tracking as you can just look at the enemy medic.

Diamondback (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Diamondback
It has a minor base damage penalty but can charge crits after getting a backstab or killing a building with a sapper.

Pro and con arguments

  • You need to be able to get a backstab before getting a crit hit as buildings rarely are present in 6s.
  • You get a free crit hit after getting a backstab making it possible to 2-shot light classes afterwards
  • The weapon barely has a downside
Hello everyone.

We're trying out a new thing where we're having a generalized form for gathering some base data for future changes of the global whitelist. This is just for some of the weapons that currently get brought up frequently but if the feedback we receive through this is good we will most likely expand on it and keep on doing it.

https://forms.gle/z3psYDLbf9YUDjQL7

In order to make sure that everybody has some rough outline of what the pro and cons of the weapons are there is a rough description and arguments that have been listed by players and admins that have chipped into the conversation so far.

[h]------------------------------------------------------
Below are pro and con arguments and the [b]current[/b] status in the whitelist, This status has not changed yet.
------------------------------------------------------[/h]


[h]Winger (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Winger: [/h]
You have to give up a lot of your clip size (12 -> 5) for an additional height gain in your jumps when held out. The shots also do a small additional amount of damage.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]The reduction in clip side causes the secundairy to lose a chunk of its usefullness in fights. The small increase in damage does not make up for it.
[*]Giving additional jumping height to scout, which is already considered the strongest class, is overkill considering the class's base movement.
[/list]

[h]Atomizer (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Atomizer: [/h]
The bug where you didn't need to hold the weapon out fully to use the jump is gone.
You can do a third jump when you hold the weapon out but switching to the weapons is 50% slower then to other weapons.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]The scout that runs this weapon is no longer able to build uber with his medic.
[*]Pulling out the weapon will allow you to get onto better highground but you need to make yourself uncapable of shooting for a while to do so.
[*]An additional jump doesn't grant you that much extra height considering that the Winger is already allowed.
[*]Giving additional jumping height to scout, which is already considered the strongest class, is overkill considering the class's base movement.
[/list]

[h]Cow Mangler 5000 (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Cow%20Mangler%205000[/h]
You gain unlimited ammunition and a gimmick alt-fire but you deal 20% less damage to buildings.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]Having unlimited ammo makes the weapon just a straight upgrade. The decreased damage to buildings is negligible.
[*]Having unlimited ammo makes holding pure spam battles.
[*]The alt-fire is just a gimmick but due to it putting people on fire and mini-critting, which removes damage fall-off, it is an easy spam option that can one-shots light classes.
[*]It makes the game more boring and easier.
[/list]

[h]Direct Hit (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Direct_Hit[/h]
You have borderline no splash damage but your rockets are way faster and deal 25% more damage. You also minicrit airborne players.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]The removal of splash damage and increase of rocket speed causes the weapon to be more aim based compared to other rocket launchers.
[*]Your usefullness in spam fights decreases heavily.
[*]The damage increase allows for one-shotting light classes.
[*]The aim required at mid to close range is limited.
[/list]

[h]Mantreads (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mantreads[/h]
The bug in regards to them has been fixed. They haven't been tested or ran after they got updated.
They allow for better strafing and cause you to be knocked around very little while in the air. You also deal damage when landing on somebodies head.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]They are very situational.
[*]You're giving up the gunboats to run these.
[*]The knockback reduction is too big and you can't avoid people bombing you with this.
[*]They would add an interesting dynamic for last bombing in on last.
[/list]

[h]Dragons Fury (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Dragon's%20Fury[/h]
This weapon hasn't been allowed in the global whitelist before.
Rather then a consistent stream of flames you shoot out a flame "ball" that puts people on fire temporarily. Hitting people that are on fire will do increased damage. If you where to hit every shot you would do more damage then with a traditional flame thrower. Airblasting cooldown is increased by 50% making the weapon not as strong in defensive scenarios.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]The slower airblast cooldown makes the weapon rather weak in the main usage of pyro in 6v6. Which is holding lasts.
[*]The increased damage compared to the other flame throwers is limited and also requires the user to hit all of the attacks.
[*]The "ball" that it shoots blocks out vision, but so do normal flame throwers.
[/list]

[h]Loch'n load (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Loch-n-Load[/h]
You have a slower clip size, explosion radius and the pipes shatter on touching a surface but your projectiles are faster and do more damage to buildings.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]The weapon has less clip size and due to the lack of rollers it can be used less it spam down chockes
[*]The increased projectile speed make the pipes easy to hit directly
[/list]

[h]Iron Bomber (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Iron_Bomber[/h]
Your rollers bounce very little, have a smaller explosion radius and explode 30% faster. The projectile is also slightly faster with how the source engine works.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]The difference is very minimal.
[*]The weapon is a straight upgrade due to you being able to place your rollers more consistently as well as due to the non-mentioned projectile speed increase.
[*]The projectiles are harder to see.
[/list]

[h]Crusaders Crossbow (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Crusader%27s_Crossbow[/h]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1qju6V1jLM]Ah shit here we go again.
[/url]You can heal people for 75-150 health with a fast moving projectile. The weapon reloads automatically even when not held out. It also still builds slight amounts of ubercharge.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]It makes medic a more interesting class
[*]Coordination within fights to get arrowed quickly can allow for a serious advantage
[*]The coordination that is required is limited and just people yelling "ARROW"
[*]It makes it so that playing off of damage is very difficult
[*]It makes the game slower and more boring
[/list]

[h]Solemn Vow (Banned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Solemn_Vow[/h]
It allows medics to see the health boxes of the enemy team the same as a spy can.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]It allows for a medic to call out focus calls based off of what health he sees on enemy players.
[*]It removes the need of ubercharge tracking as you can just look at the enemy medic.
[/list]

[h]Diamondback (Unbanned) - https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Diamondback[/h]
It has a minor base damage penalty but can charge crits after getting a backstab or killing a building with a sapper.

[b]Pro and con arguments[/b]
[list]
[*]You need to be able to get a backstab before getting a crit hit as buildings rarely are present in 6s.
[*]You get a free crit hit after getting a backstab making it possible to 2-shot light classes afterwards
[*]The weapon barely has a downside
[/list]
2
#2
17 Frags +

dragons fury and atomizer got nerfed to be fine. why ban DH lmao?

dragons fury and atomizer got nerfed to be fine. why ban DH lmao?
3
#3
-5 Frags +

please don't ban iron bomber and crossbow, makes the game so much worse

please don't ban iron bomber and crossbow, makes the game so much worse
4
#4
-29 Frags +

good initiative for once, truly hoping, you'll deal with other weapons as well in the future.

btw some weapons could just get easily unbanned, like buffalo steak, flying guillotine, short circuit. obviously the others need discussion, because it can change the usual gameplay pretty hard

good initiative for once, truly hoping, you'll deal with other weapons as well in the future.

btw some weapons could just get easily unbanned, like buffalo steak, flying guillotine, short circuit. obviously the others need discussion, because it can change the usual gameplay pretty hard
5
#5
1 Frags +

does dragon's fury not still have a weird lag/fps thing when firing? i noticed that a lot when it came out but it could be some placebo from how the entire screen flashes when you shoot it

does dragon's fury not still have a weird lag/fps thing when firing? i noticed that a lot when it came out but it could be some placebo from how the entire screen flashes when you shoot it
6
#6
3 Frags +

will the results be made public?

will the results be made public?
7
#7
34 Frags +

While the crossbow is cancer in its current state i feel it is a necessary evil to keep Soldiers relevant with that insufferable Scout speed Medic buff effectively removing the Scout's only weakness in team fights.

I still have no idea why Valve decided to buff Scout in this manner. Literally nobody wanted Scout to be buffed.

While the crossbow is cancer in its current state i feel it is a necessary evil to keep Soldiers relevant with that insufferable Scout speed Medic buff effectively removing the Scout's only weakness in team fights.

I still have no idea why Valve decided to buff Scout in this manner. Literally nobody wanted Scout to be buffed.
8
#8
15 Frags +

I swear to god do not unban the fucking guillotine or the short circuit

I swear to god do not unban the fucking guillotine or the short circuit
9
#9
7 Frags +
Screwball
I still have no idea why Valve decided to buff Scout in this manner. Literally nobody wanted Scout to be buffed.

Pub mains who main medic and also only play Dustbowl thought Scout was too weak.

[quote=Screwball]

I still have no idea why Valve decided to buff Scout in this manner. Literally nobody wanted Scout to be buffed.[/quote]
Pub mains who main medic and also only play Dustbowl thought Scout was too weak.
10
#10
3 Frags +

If Dragon's Fury is so weak then why is it banned? The arguments make it sound like it got unbanned.

If Dragon's Fury is so weak then why is it banned? The arguments make it sound like it got unbanned.
11
#11
-5 Frags +

this is the first time i’ve ever heard anyone complain about the winger before. as for the rest, the only one i’m concerned about being unbanned is the solemn vow.

this is the first time i’ve ever heard anyone complain about the winger before. as for the rest, the only one i’m concerned about being unbanned is the solemn vow.
12
#12
10 Frags +

My thoughts on the weapons above:

Winger: Nobody in NA considers this weapon a problem afaik, scouts mostly use it to make certain jumps they otherwise couldn't in exchange for a gimped pistol.

Atomizer: Nobody in NA considers this a problem, its unbanned and nobody uses it. Pulling out a melee weapon mid fight instead of shooting is a meme.

Direct hit: Rarely used, giving up splash damage sucks.

Mantreads: Never used, giving up gunboats sucks.

Dragon's Fury: Incredibly weak weapon, no reason at all to be banned. It tanks the users fps, it's like aiming hitscan except delayed + ping, and it does pathetic damage if you don't hit it perfectly. Maybe on lan its a good weapon? I doubt it.

Loch'n Load: In theory it is a good weapon but I don't see it too much. Really annoying to fight when it is run however.

Solemn Vow: For some reason people think this weapon invalidates uber tracking on medic. It doesn't really. Meds rarely have sightlines on each other in the first place, and you don't spend your time on medic putting your crosshair on enemies, you are normally checking your team's health first, arrowing, etc. This weapon was playtested and meds rarely found chances to use it if ever. If you are using the weapon as your main form of uber tracking you will be caught out on a ton of maps. Honestly I think it would raise the medic skill ceiling a bit. It is kind of impressive to focus on everything medics already focus on while finding ways to use the solemn vow productively. During dry fights you could maybe try to see micro-(dis)advantages that you otherwise couldn't know and try to play off them(if you have the mental bandwidth to remember to do so!). I don't think it would be much better than just running the ubersaw (or amputator if you are a new age med), but if players are good enough they could maybe do some cool stuff with it. Honestly, if you aren't a medic main and you haven't tried using it before your theorycraft about the weapon is probably wrong. Medics are a pretty busy class, its not easy to remember to use it in the moment.

Diamondback: Free crit after backstab aint it chief. The backstab is already impactful, a free crit afterwards isn't needed- and it would further encourage spies to just stab lone flank members (for a crit now) when combos are spychecking. The frontier justice is similar in nature to the diamondback, but the crucial difference is that players have to feed a stationary sentry instead of a spy getting the crits on his terms. (also engineer can't cloak into random spots with his free crit like a spy can)

EDIT:
Oh yeah, the crossbow.
Without the crossbow med is a super unengaging class- you spend your entire game holding out a weapon that auto-aims for you and are 200% reliant on your team for everything- you lose almost all 'playmaking' potential. Most people are so used to running it at this point that I am decently confident in saying that almost everyone who wants it gone would change their mind after a week of scrimming without it. For as much as people say it slows down the game because you can't push on damage, it also allows for you to better heal up after fights where people die and push on numbers instead. Stalemates don't come from the crossbow, they are a natural consequence of 5cp as a gametype.

My thoughts on the weapons above:

Winger: Nobody in NA considers this weapon a problem afaik, scouts mostly use it to make certain jumps they otherwise couldn't in exchange for a gimped pistol.

Atomizer: Nobody in NA considers this a problem, its unbanned and nobody uses it. Pulling out a melee weapon mid fight instead of shooting is a meme.

Direct hit: Rarely used, giving up splash damage sucks.

Mantreads: Never used, giving up gunboats sucks.

Dragon's Fury: Incredibly weak weapon, no reason at all to be banned. It tanks the users fps, it's like aiming hitscan except delayed + ping, and it does pathetic damage if you don't hit it perfectly. Maybe on lan its a good weapon? I doubt it.

Loch'n Load: In theory it is a good weapon but I don't see it too much. [b]Really[/b] annoying to fight when it is run however.

Solemn Vow: For some reason people think this weapon invalidates uber tracking on medic. It doesn't really. Meds rarely have sightlines on each other in the first place, and you don't spend your time on medic putting your crosshair on enemies, you are normally checking your team's health first, arrowing, etc. This weapon was playtested and meds rarely found chances to use it if ever. If you are using the weapon as your main form of uber tracking you will be caught out on a ton of maps. Honestly I think it would raise the medic skill ceiling a bit. It is kind of impressive to focus on everything medics already focus on while finding ways to use the solemn vow productively. During dry fights you could maybe try to see micro-(dis)advantages that you otherwise couldn't know and try to play off them(if you have the mental bandwidth to remember to do so!). I don't think it would be much better than just running the ubersaw (or amputator if you are a new age med), but if players are good enough they could maybe do some cool stuff with it. Honestly, if you aren't a medic main and you haven't tried using it before your theorycraft about the weapon is probably wrong. Medics are a pretty busy class, its not easy to remember to use it in the moment.

Diamondback: Free crit after backstab aint it chief. The backstab is already impactful, a free crit afterwards isn't needed- and it would further encourage spies to just stab lone flank members (for a crit now) when combos are spychecking. The frontier justice is similar in nature to the diamondback, but the crucial difference is that players have to feed a stationary sentry instead of a spy getting the crits on his terms. (also engineer can't cloak into random spots with his free crit like a spy can)

EDIT:
Oh yeah, the crossbow.
Without the crossbow med is a super unengaging class- you spend your entire game holding out a weapon that auto-aims for you and are 200% reliant on your team for everything- you lose almost [i]all [/i]'playmaking' potential. Most people are so used to running it at this point that I am decently confident in saying that almost everyone who wants it gone would change their mind after a week of scrimming without it. For as much as people say it slows down the game because you can't push on damage, it also allows for you to better heal up after fights where people die and push on numbers instead. Stalemates don't come from the crossbow, they are a natural consequence of 5cp as a gametype.
13
#13
4 Frags +

a balance between competitive and fun is subjective, but when is something considered OP? isn't that a bit subjective as well?

a balance between competitive and fun is subjective, but when is something considered OP? isn't that a bit subjective as well?
14
#14
26 Frags +

Excuse me but this is the global whitelist, therefore NA do not get an opinion.

Winger is straight up broken, especially on mids like granary, process, and gullywash. I honestly don't think most people even realise how many useful winger jumps there are. It's really strange how everyone cries about scout class constantly yet nobody thinks "Hmmm maybe this unlock that lets him take the high ground whenever he wants has something to do with it."

Crossbow is broken too but will never, ever be banned because most m*dic mains are too braindead to even know what critheals are these days. Sad!

Mantreads are great for sacking into last on some maps, please unban

Excuse me but this is the global whitelist, therefore NA do not get an opinion.

Winger is straight up broken, especially on mids like granary, process, and gullywash. I honestly don't think most people even realise how many useful winger jumps there are. It's really strange how everyone cries about scout class constantly yet nobody thinks "Hmmm maybe this unlock that lets him take the high ground whenever he wants has something to do with it."

Crossbow is broken too but will never, ever be banned because most m*dic mains are too braindead to even know what critheals are these days. Sad!

Mantreads are great for sacking into last on some maps, please unban
15
#15
eXtelevision
3 Frags +

Thanks for posting a public form. I filled it out and also shared it to /r/trueTF2 to help it get more eXposure.

Thanks for posting a public form. I filled it out and also shared it to /r/trueTF2 to help it get more eXposure.
16
#16
19 Frags +
scrabWinger is straight up broken, especially on mids like granary, process, and gullywash. I honestly don't think most people even realise how many useful winger jumps there are. It's really strange how everyone cries about scout class constantly yet nobody thinks "Hmmm maybe this unlock that lets him take the high ground whenever he wants has something to do with it."

Couldn't agree more, literally almost a straight upgrade

[quote=scrab]
Winger is straight up broken, especially on mids like granary, process, and gullywash. I honestly don't think most people even realise how many useful winger jumps there are. It's really strange how everyone cries about scout class constantly yet nobody thinks "Hmmm maybe this unlock that lets him take the high ground whenever he wants has something to do with it."[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, literally almost a straight upgrade
17
#17
0 Frags +

ban quickies

ban quickies
18
#18
-15 Frags +
scrabExcuse me but this is the global whitelist, therefore NA do not get an opinion.

Winger is straight up broken, especially on mids like granary, process, and gullywash. I honestly don't think most people even realise how many useful winger jumps there are. It's really strange how everyone cries about scout class constantly yet nobody thinks "Hmmm maybe this unlock that lets him take the high ground whenever he wants has something to do with it."

Crossbow is broken too but will never, ever be banned because most m*dic mains are too braindead to even know what critheals are these days. Sad!

Mantreads are great for sacking into last on some maps, please unban

So as someone from NA who has a valid opinion on these weapon unlocks.. I should just ignore this huh?

[quote=scrab]Excuse me but this is the global whitelist, therefore NA do not get an opinion.

Winger is straight up broken, especially on mids like granary, process, and gullywash. I honestly don't think most people even realise how many useful winger jumps there are. It's really strange how everyone cries about scout class constantly yet nobody thinks "Hmmm maybe this unlock that lets him take the high ground whenever he wants has something to do with it."

Crossbow is broken too but will never, ever be banned because most m*dic mains are too braindead to even know what critheals are these days. Sad!

Mantreads are great for sacking into last on some maps, please unban[/quote]

So as someone from NA who has a valid opinion on these weapon unlocks.. I should just ignore this huh?
19
#19
eXtelevision
12 Frags +

It's just banter yao

It's just banter yao
20
#20
4 Frags +

Winger is just a straight upgrade to the default pistol. Combined with a jump script it makes moving around the map and evading much easier for a scout. Might be placebo but I also feel like the spread is lower and it just works better as a final blow weapon than the normal pistol because of its higher damage.

Winger is just a straight upgrade to the default pistol. Combined with a jump script it makes moving around the map and evading much easier for a scout. Might be placebo but I also feel like the spread is lower and it just works better as a final blow weapon than the normal pistol because of its higher damage.
21
#21
17 Frags +

the winger is stupidly good for escaping situations were you should really just die - You can remain high enough above the ground for rockets to not splash you for like 3 seconds - Its also quite pathetic that people (prem players too) use a script as well to further abuse it rather than just pressing literally 3 buttons. (Q -> space -> Q)

crossbow is a necessary evil to keep soldiers from just dying from any sort of aggression

iron bomber is a straight upgrade but i dont see enough people complaining about it to be banned

the direct hit is one of the rare cases in which a players skill actually determines how useful the weapon is and the downsides are heavy enough to warrent this weapon to stay unbanned.

the winger is stupidly good for escaping situations were you should really just die - You can remain high enough above the ground for rockets to not splash you for like 3 seconds - Its also quite pathetic that people (prem players too) use a script as well to further abuse it rather than just pressing literally 3 buttons. (Q -> space -> Q)

crossbow is a necessary evil to keep soldiers from just dying from any sort of aggression

iron bomber is a straight upgrade but i dont see enough people complaining about it to be banned

the direct hit is one of the rare cases in which a players skill actually determines how useful the weapon is and the downsides are heavy enough to warrent this weapon to stay unbanned.
22
#22
0 Frags +

Welp, it's time to go back to the pistol

Welp, it's time to go back to the pistol
23
#23
-8 Frags +

I wish to see the Cow Mangler return to ETF2L in the future :/

I wish to see the Cow Mangler return to ETF2L in the future :/
24
#24
-1 Frags +
morwannegScrewball
I still have no idea why Valve decided to buff Scout in this manner. Literally nobody wanted Scout to be buffed.
Pub mains who main medic and also only play Dustbowl thought Scout was too weak.

See I thought they did it as a QOL thing for medic, not necessarily scout specifically though realistically it only affected healing of scouts.

If that's the route Valve wanted to go the could just give medic the same speed boost for just healing people rather than specifically a scout.

[quote=morwanneg][quote=Screwball]

I still have no idea why Valve decided to buff Scout in this manner. Literally nobody wanted Scout to be buffed.[/quote]
Pub mains who main medic and also only play Dustbowl thought Scout was too weak.[/quote]

See I thought they did it as a QOL thing for medic, not necessarily scout specifically though realistically it only affected healing of scouts.

If that's the route Valve wanted to go the could just give medic the same speed boost for just healing people rather than specifically a scout.
25
#25
4 Frags +
TimTuma balance between competitive and fun is subjective, but when is something considered OP? isn't that a bit subjective as well?

It is easier to determine if a weapon is overpowered because you can use data instead of having to settle for all the different opinions and preferences in the community. For example the iron bomber and jag are straight upgrades as they are equipped over the stock weapon 99% of the time because they just do what the normal weapon does, but better and it's noticeable. In comparison the current available sniper, spy and heavy unlocks are all well balanced. In games you can notice that a player has the option to use the normal minigun, the brass beast or the tomislav - but there is no unlock that stands out so much that everyone is almost forced to use it.

[quote=TimTum]a balance between competitive and fun is subjective, but when is something considered OP? isn't that a bit subjective as well?[/quote]

It is easier to determine if a weapon is overpowered because you can use data instead of having to settle for all the different opinions and preferences in the community. For example the iron bomber and jag are straight upgrades as they are equipped over the stock weapon 99% of the time because they just do what the normal weapon does, but better and it's noticeable. In comparison the current available sniper, spy and heavy unlocks are all well balanced. In games you can notice that a player has the option to use the normal minigun, the brass beast or the tomislav - but there is no unlock that stands out so much that everyone is almost forced to use it.
26
#26
10 Frags +
Jynxiiiron bomber is a straight upgrade but i dont see enough people complaining about it to be banned

I want to complain so much about it but every time I do, people either call me a retard or don't care.

[quote=Jynxii]iron bomber is a straight upgrade but i dont see enough people complaining about it to be banned
[/quote]

I want to complain so much about it but every time I do, people either call me a retard or don't care.
27
#27
1 Frags +

The mostly unrecognized downside of iron bomber is how the shorter fuse time limits longer spam angles on certain maps. Although I definitely run iron bomber the majority of the time, the fact that its even worth it to still use stock sometimes seems like a sign it's balanced.

The mostly unrecognized downside of iron bomber is how the shorter fuse time limits longer spam angles on certain maps. Although I definitely run iron bomber the majority of the time, the fact that its even worth it to still use stock sometimes seems like a sign it's balanced.
28
#28
-5 Frags +

detonator unban when

detonator unban when
29
#29
9 Frags +
daybraek

I think that's a very minor advantage for the grenade launcher, the shorter fuse time has way more benefits in other situations. Especially in combination with rollers not bouncing around

[quote=daybraek][/quote]
I think that's a very minor advantage for the grenade launcher, the shorter fuse time has way more benefits in other situations. Especially in combination with rollers not bouncing around
30
#30
7 Frags +

The only thing about the Iron Bomber that really makes it better than the Grenade Launcher is the less obvious weapon fire, and the projectile not being as well highlighted as stock grenades, meaning they're harder to see/notice.

Since the projectile is harder to notice you get directed more often AND the rollers blend better with dark backgrounds. It's not easy to really show this cause a screenshot would still be mostly obvious in a lot of cases but when you consider it might be the difference of processing what you see could be the difference of 10-20ms or just flat out not seeing it at all.

Show Content

As can be seen in the 2 pictures the stock grenade has more area highlighted by the team color and is brighter to begin with.

Something I noticed after playing against some people running loch-n-load, despite the projectiles being literally faster they were easier to dodge cause I could clearly see them coming in a lot of cases.

The only thing about the Iron Bomber that really makes it better than the Grenade Launcher is the less obvious weapon fire, and the projectile not being as well highlighted as stock grenades, meaning they're harder to see/notice.

Since the projectile is harder to notice you get directed more often AND the rollers blend better with dark backgrounds. It's not easy to really show this cause a screenshot would still be mostly obvious in a lot of cases but when you consider it might be the difference of processing what you see could be the difference of 10-20ms or just flat out not seeing it at all.

[spoiler][img]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/0/09/RED_Iron_Bomber_Projectile.png[/img]
[img]https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/d/d0/Grenade_proj_red.png[/img][/spoiler]

As can be seen in the 2 pictures the stock grenade has more area highlighted by the team color and is brighter to begin with.

Something I noticed after playing against some people running loch-n-load, despite the projectiles being literally faster they were easier to dodge cause I could clearly see them coming in a lot of cases.
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