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Leagues meet to discuss future of North American TF2
posted in News
31
#31
19 Frags +
Batbattrippano but rly dont let sigafoo control a league because he already showed that he will ban people from playing together because they winPlease explain, new to the sigafoo hate train

essentially he placed a "salary cap" (this only affected froyotech players) on his league to forcibly break froyotech apart bc they won too much.

[quote=Batbat][quote=trippa]no but rly dont let sigafoo control a league because he already showed that he will ban people from playing together because they win[/quote]
Please explain, new to the sigafoo hate train[/quote]
essentially he placed a "salary cap" (this only affected froyotech players) on his league to forcibly break froyotech apart bc they won too much.
32
#32
62 Frags +

He also banned me from his league for not following his requests regarding the spy exploit (and because I tweeted a screenshot of him asking me to take down the post)

He also banned me from his league for not following his requests regarding the spy exploit (and because I tweeted a screenshot of him asking me to take down the post)
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#33
-48 Frags +

think he banned u for being the massive piece of shit you are pete, and that's fair.

edit: just because pete is right in this specific instance does not make him any better of a person

think he banned u for being the massive piece of shit you are pete, and that's fair.

edit: just because pete is right in this specific instance does not make him any better of a person
34
#34
3 Frags +

I really hope it's rgl so that scratchh won't be able to play for the first season.
http://prntscr.com/nhrloa

also reban cowmangler please

I really hope it's rgl so that scratchh won't be able to play for the first season.
http://prntscr.com/nhrloa

also reban cowmangler please
35
#35
22 Frags +
LightbringerOculismWould you ban someone from playing a league if you caught him hacking in an MGE/Pub server for fun?
Without hesitation.

habib should be banned he cheated before

pauly has also cheated before and by before i mean yesterday
http://logs.tf/2270254

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387764227965976579/571865210843824129/unknown.png

[quote=Lightbringer][quote=Oculism]
Would you ban someone from playing a league if you caught him hacking in an MGE/Pub server for fun?[/quote]

Without hesitation.[/quote]
habib should be banned he cheated before

pauly has also cheated before and by before i mean yesterday
http://logs.tf/2270254
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387764227965976579/571865210843824129/unknown.png[/img]
36
#36
21 Frags +

cool pauly can get banned then if this is true, but for habib that case was so long ago that it really cant be pushed anymore

cool pauly can get banned then if this is true, but for habib that case was so long ago that it really cant be pushed anymore
37
#37
-4 Frags +
dishsoapcool pauly can get banned then if this is true, but for habib that case was so long ago that it really cant be pushed anymore

Whens the cutoff

[quote=dishsoap]cool pauly can get banned then if this is true, but for habib that case was so long ago that it really cant be pushed anymore[/quote]
Whens the cutoff
38
#38
-11 Frags +
Oculismdishsoapcool pauly can get banned then if this is true, but for habib that case was so long ago that it really cant be pushed anymoreWhens the cutoff

a year or two

[quote=Oculism][quote=dishsoap]cool pauly can get banned then if this is true, but for habib that case was so long ago that it really cant be pushed anymore[/quote]
Whens the cutoff[/quote]
a year or two
39
#39
14 Frags +
mustardoverlordwhy are b4nny and luc, possibly the two most stubborn people in the entire esea 'community', always the only two guys invited to these things

in all fairness to luc, he's the main guy testing and attempting to improve competitive maps that are currently in development with his map test pugs, so it kind of makes sense to have him there regardless of his ability as a player.

[quote=mustardoverlord]why are b4nny and luc, possibly the two most stubborn people in the entire esea 'community', always the only two guys invited to these things[/quote]
in all fairness to luc, he's the main guy testing and attempting to improve competitive maps that are currently in development with his map test pugs, so it kind of makes sense to have him there regardless of his ability as a player.
40
#40
72 Frags +

https://i.imgur.com/H659Bdi.jpg

[img]https://i.imgur.com/H659Bdi.jpg[/img]
41
#41
5 Frags +
Oculismhttp://logs.tf/2270254

PRIME kev vibes

[quote=Oculism]
http://logs.tf/2270254
[/quote]

PRIME kev vibes
42
#42
24 Frags +
daybraekmustardoverlordwhy are b4nny and luc, possibly the two most stubborn people in the entire esea 'community', always the only two guys invited to these thingsin all fairness to luc, he's the main guy testing and attempting to improve competitive maps that are currently in development with his map test pugs, so it kind of makes sense to have him there regardless of his ability as a player.

that would be true if you have already established that your league's goal is to introduce x number of new maps and it's a meeting to decide which ones to put in

but if the point is to actually decide what a new league ought to look like in general, you can't invite way more people who lean towards as much new shit as possible (luc b4nny and sigafoo) and not people who balance that out the other direction

what about people like me who would be perfectly fine keeping the same maps for pretty much every season? do our opinions count for nothing?

[quote=daybraek][quote=mustardoverlord]why are b4nny and luc, possibly the two most stubborn people in the entire esea 'community', always the only two guys invited to these things[/quote]
in all fairness to luc, he's the main guy testing and attempting to improve competitive maps that are currently in development with his map test pugs, so it kind of makes sense to have him there regardless of his ability as a player.[/quote]

that would be true if you have already established that your league's goal is to introduce x number of new maps and it's a meeting to decide which ones to put in

but if the point is to actually decide what a new league ought to look like in general, you can't invite way more people who lean towards as much new shit as possible (luc b4nny and sigafoo) and not people who balance that out the other direction

what about people like me who would be perfectly fine keeping the same maps for pretty much every season? do our opinions count for nothing?
43
#43
7 Frags +
OculismPlease dont grudge ban players, and set strict rules for the league with static ban times. Admins of certain leagues shouldnt have bias towards disliking or liking people.

I mean, if a player was (permanently) banned in a previous league for extensive harassment towards admins/players I think it's pretty safe to say they are pretty incorrigible as a person and are not worth keeping around in the comp scene. Mirroring bans is a really good way to keep problem players out of the picture IMO. Banning someone because you don't like them is one thing (otherwise I'd have banned half of the hl players I've ever met by now lol), but keeping someone banned based off of concrete evidence that they did something they shouldn't have in the past is definitely a smart move.

[quote=Oculism]Please dont grudge ban players, and set strict rules for the league with static ban times. Admins of certain leagues shouldnt have bias towards disliking or liking people.[/quote]

I mean, if a player was (permanently) banned in a previous league for extensive harassment towards admins/players I think it's pretty safe to say they are pretty incorrigible as a person and are not worth keeping around in the comp scene. Mirroring bans is a really good way to keep problem players out of the picture IMO. Banning someone because you don't like them is one thing (otherwise I'd have banned half of the hl players I've ever met by now lol), but keeping someone banned based off of concrete evidence that they did something they shouldn't have in the past is definitely a smart move.
44
#44
47 Frags +

scratch i would chill on the cheating subject seeing as half of your autism circlejerk has been banned from AS for cheating or harassing people on alts

scratch i would chill on the cheating subject seeing as half of your autism circlejerk has been banned from AS for cheating or harassing people on alts
45
#45
-38 Frags +

b4nny and luc get invited because they obviously care way more about growing the scene than most of anyone else. While it may seem lame because their ideas of progressing the game forward may seem outlandish to most, it's way better to have heads that actually believe in the future of the game than let's say 90% of fucking invite that just constantly spout "the game is dead/i hate this game" (this attitude does not lead to good leadership). They also do a lot to try to move the game forward. If you're worried that they're going to constantly try to push a no unlock/no class limit ruleset, as long as a majority of you guys genuinely keep saying you don't want it then it will not happen no matter how much they say.

If anyone is going to ride on sigafoo for trying to run a traditional 6s league, please keep in mind that he already said he is not going to be running it himself. Which means there won't be a 'salary cap', or anything else that you guys didn't personally like that he did. It would be under his brand, but ran by different people.

b4nny and luc get invited because they obviously care way more about growing the scene than most of anyone else. While it may seem lame because their ideas of progressing the game forward may seem outlandish to most, it's way better to have heads that actually believe in the future of the game than let's say 90% of fucking invite that just constantly spout "the game is dead/i hate this game" (this attitude does not lead to good leadership). They also do a lot to try to move the game forward. If you're worried that they're going to constantly try to push a no unlock/no class limit ruleset, as long as a majority of you guys genuinely keep saying you don't want it then it will not happen no matter how much they say.

If anyone is going to ride on sigafoo for trying to run a traditional 6s league, please keep in mind that he already said he is not going to be running it himself. Which means there won't be a 'salary cap', or anything else that you guys didn't personally like that he did. It would be under his brand, but ran by different people.
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#46
11 Frags +

man everyone being angry about this league stuff but shout outs to recurse for the quality intro and article. I love ur stuff dude!

man everyone being angry about this league stuff but shout outs to recurse for the quality intro and article. I love ur stuff dude!
47
#47
59 Frags +

i just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches

i just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches
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#48
-11 Frags +
catfacescratch i would chill on the cheating subject seeing as half of your autism circlejerk has been banned from AS for cheating or harassing people on alts

havent you also cheated

thats funny

[quote=catface]scratch i would chill on the cheating subject seeing as half of your autism circlejerk has been banned from AS for cheating or harassing people on alts[/quote]
havent you also cheated

thats funny
49
#49
38 Frags +
NursayThey also do a lot to try to move the game forward.

Moving things forward is good but I think most of the community is fed up with the decisionmaking being opaque and feeling like it's just the whims of whoever's talking loudest, with what seems like 0 effort being being put into improving the process or consulting the entire rest of the community (outside of when a particular decision is completely hated and has to be reverted). All that paired with there still being no clear reasoning on why it's been going the direction it has, or really any long term plan at all.

People do want progress, it's just that the most relevant area for progress is to come up with an actually good decisionmaking process. Whitelists for example, every time a new whitelist comes out there's more headache and backlash than there were problems with the old whitelist in the first place -- which is a pretty good indication that the system ain't working well. But I don't think we've ever actually heard plans to fix this, we just end up running into the same situation a season or two later, with the same concerns and complaints. I get that it isn't easy and not everyone will be happy, but does anyone think the current method is actually any good?

This is the best opportunity the community at large will have to actually improving the way we approach things like whitelists to stop making controversial decisions, but it seems like that whole discussion is falling on some of the same people who've been making these controversial decisions in the first place.

[quote=Nursay]They also do a lot to try to move the game forward.[/quote]
Moving things forward is good but I think most of the community is fed up with the decisionmaking being opaque and feeling like it's just the whims of whoever's talking loudest, with what seems like 0 effort being being put into improving the process or consulting the entire rest of the community (outside of when a particular decision is completely hated and has to be reverted). All that paired with there still being no clear reasoning on why it's been going the direction it has, or really any long term plan at all.

People do want progress, it's just that the most relevant area for progress is to come up with an actually good decisionmaking process. Whitelists for example, every time a new whitelist comes out there's more headache and backlash than there were problems with the old whitelist in the first place -- which is a pretty good indication that the system ain't working well. But I don't think we've ever actually heard plans to fix this, we just end up running into the same situation a season or two later, with the same concerns and complaints. I get that it isn't easy and not everyone will be happy, but does anyone think the current method is actually any good?

This is the best opportunity the community at large will have to actually improving the way we approach things like whitelists to stop making controversial decisions, but it seems like that whole discussion is falling on some of the same people who've been making these controversial decisions in the first place.
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#50
-9 Frags +
JarateKingbut I think most of the community is fed up with the decision making being opaque and feeling like it's just the whims of whoever's talking loudest, with what seems like 0 effort being being put into improving the process or consulting the entire rest of the community (outside of when a particular decision is completely hated and has to be reverted).

Lucrative is the only person who hosts new map pugs every week and invites all players to join providing good feedback to mapmakers. Many of those map makers actually come in and watch the pugs as they happen. he posts publicly on tftv asking people to join and playtest the pugs. after every map he asks the entire pug if anyone has feedback and then when he has a batch of solid maps he sends out a poll and has people vote on which ones they think are most competitive ready before presenting them to league admins and discussing what they should do with them going forward. i dont understand how this is someone with the loudest voice speaking... It looks to me like there are plenty of chances for the community to be taking part in map discussion but unfortunately people arent taking advantage of whats being provided.

I also think that you are trying to get people who never take part in map testing, who never put time in to do solid long term testing of weapons, to show up and voice their opinion completely ignorant of the other side. its one thing for someone to show up to the map pugs do the weapons testing, show up to the discussion and then voice an opinion that is against b4nny or luc or whoever else is there, its another to do nothing and expect to be invited to the discussion. people who played the non restriction sixes seriously all season long are probably way more informed on whats broken having tried it multiple times ingame than others who used it for a couple pugs one week during testing on pugchamp. If I remember correctly propoganda was played by multiple invite teams in a new map cup and got feedback, then improved on that feedback and was then allowed into esea. Before that it was played in quindali pugs for a while and given tons of feedback, going through multiple versions.

[quote=JarateKing]but I think most of the community is fed up with the decision making being opaque and feeling like it's just the whims of whoever's talking loudest, with what seems like[b] 0 effort being being put into improving the process or consulting the entire rest of the community[/b] (outside of when a particular decision is completely hated and has to be reverted). [/quote]

Lucrative is the only person who hosts new map pugs every week and invites all players to join providing good feedback to mapmakers. Many of those map makers actually come in and watch the pugs as they happen. he posts publicly on tftv asking people to join and playtest the pugs. after every map he asks the entire pug if anyone has feedback and then when he has a batch of solid maps he sends out a poll and has people vote on which ones they think are most competitive ready before presenting them to league admins and discussing what they should do with them going forward. i dont understand how this is someone with the loudest voice speaking... It looks to me like there are plenty of chances for the community to be taking part in map discussion but unfortunately people arent taking advantage of whats being provided.

I also think that you are trying to get people who never take part in map testing, who never put time in to do solid long term testing of weapons, to show up and voice their opinion completely ignorant of the other side. its one thing for someone to show up to the map pugs do the weapons testing, show up to the discussion and then voice an opinion that is against b4nny or luc or whoever else is there, its another to do nothing and expect to be invited to the discussion. people who played the non restriction sixes seriously all season long are probably way more informed on whats broken having tried it multiple times ingame than others who used it for a couple pugs one week during testing on pugchamp. If I remember correctly propoganda was played by multiple invite teams in a new map cup and got feedback, then improved on that feedback and was then allowed into esea. Before that it was played in quindali pugs for a while and given tons of feedback, going through multiple versions.
51
#51
21 Frags +

What luc does with maps is definitely valuable but, again, refer to what I said about how we need to first agree that new maps are even necessary (and how often, and which maps to replace, and the system for doing so etc.) before any of the work on WHICH maps to pick becomes relevant

What luc does with maps is definitely valuable but, again, refer to what I said about how we need to first agree that new maps are even necessary (and how often, and which maps to replace, and the system for doing so etc.) before any of the work on WHICH maps to pick becomes relevant
52
#52
-24 Frags +
JarateKing

I'm just simply trying to say that I would much heavily prefer people who are more optimistic for our scene represent/lead us much more than people who think being in the same place this whole time is real any good. This is me saying I have no complaints there was no other invite players in the meeting. I also said later in the same paragraph that as long as people are loud about what they want, that's what they'll get no matter how hard luc and b4nny try to push their own ideas. I obviously have my own personal preference on things, but when it comes to a new league I highly doubt they'll do much to try to piss a majority of people off.

[quote=JarateKing][/quote]

I'm just simply trying to say that I would much heavily prefer people who are more optimistic for our scene represent/lead us much more than people who think being in the same place this whole time is real any good. This is me saying I have no complaints there was no other invite players in the meeting. I also said later in the same paragraph that as long as people are loud about what they want, that's what they'll get no matter how hard luc and b4nny try to push their own ideas. I obviously have my own personal preference on things, but when it comes to a new league I highly doubt they'll do much to try to piss a majority of people off.
53
#53
48 Frags +
Nursay

how did the last b4nny project go?

[quote=Nursay][/quote]
how did the last b4nny project go?
54
#54
12 Frags +

it feels pretty counterproductive to have this round table trying to "build a better future together" and then having like 4 leagues walk away and continue operating separately, not sure why ya'll gotta do it like that .-.

first person to roll out a LAN probably wins everyone's favor

it feels pretty counterproductive to have this round table trying to "build a better future together" and then having like 4 leagues walk away and continue operating separately, not sure why ya'll gotta do it like that .-.

first person to roll out a LAN probably wins everyone's favor
55
#55
6 Frags +
directstar1Alright, I know I am like an outsider here, and not many people know me, but I have to get this off my chest. Until FROYO breaks up, whatever you do, nothing is gonna change. The NA comp scene will stay as boring and people gonna continue losing interest, like what's happening right now, hence the closedown of ESEA for Tf2, this is just the start. Now I have nothing against b4nny and his teammates, I know they have worked hard to reach where they are now and would be unfair to accuse them of anything. I am also very aware that over this dominant period of FROYOtech, people keep saying other teams have to step up and take the throne away from froyo. However, let's be real that is not happening and we all know it, teams have tried but have not reached anywhere near. And teams, if they don't get incentivized, will not have the will-power to keep trying and stay together as a team to fight for first place. So right now the only possible solution I could think of which would attract more people and teams and grow the scene is if they disbanded and form separate teams. Think about it, all the excitement, no more boring monotonous seasons with a one team dominance, multiple teams fighting for the throne, big names once teammates now huge rivals, and endless more exciting possibilities. I seriously believe this is what tf2 needs and if things go one like it is going right now, I don't see the scene living for much longer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRcmPnSTM

[quote=directstar1]Alright, I know I am like an outsider here, and not many people know me, but I have to get this off my chest. Until FROYO breaks up, whatever you do, nothing is gonna change. The NA comp scene will stay as boring and people gonna continue losing interest, like what's happening right now, hence the closedown of ESEA for Tf2, this is just the start. Now I have nothing against b4nny and his teammates, I know they have worked hard to reach where they are now and would be unfair to accuse them of anything. I am also very aware that over this dominant period of FROYOtech, people keep saying other teams have to step up and take the throne away from froyo. However, let's be real that is not happening and we all know it, teams have tried but have not reached anywhere near. And teams, if they don't get incentivized, will not have the will-power to keep trying and stay together as a team to fight for first place. So right now the only possible solution I could think of which would attract more people and teams and grow the scene is if they disbanded and form separate teams. Think about it, all the excitement, no more boring monotonous seasons with a one team dominance, multiple teams fighting for the throne, big names once teammates now huge rivals, and endless more exciting possibilities. I seriously believe this is what tf2 needs and if things go one like it is going right now, I don't see the scene living for much longer[/quote]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRcmPnSTM[/youtube]
56
#56
12 Frags +
THEBILLDOZERi just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches

Every casters true gripe

[quote=THEBILLDOZER]i just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches[/quote]

Every casters true gripe
57
#57
3 Frags +
DreamboatTHEBILLDOZERi just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches
Every casters true gripe

ETF2L has a rule for that: http://etf2l.org/rules/general-rules/#2 (2.9)

[quote=Dreamboat][quote=THEBILLDOZER]i just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches[/quote]

Every casters true gripe[/quote]

ETF2L has a rule for that: http://etf2l.org/rules/general-rules/#2 (2.9)
58
#58
3 Frags +
TimTumDreamboatTHEBILLDOZERi just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches
Every casters true gripe

ETF2L has a rule for that: http://etf2l.org/rules/general-rules/#2 (2.9)

ESEA allegedly does too (or at least it definitely did at one point) its just never enforced

[quote=TimTum][quote=Dreamboat][quote=THEBILLDOZER]i just want players to be required to use their real alias in matches[/quote]

Every casters true gripe[/quote]

ETF2L has a rule for that: http://etf2l.org/rules/general-rules/#2 (2.9)[/quote]

ESEA allegedly does too (or at least it definitely did at one point) its just never enforced
59
#59
-1 Frags +

Personally I think ESL is the way to go. They're the largest and most experienced league that could put up the largest prize pools. The only thing they're not the prime choice for is putting up LAN events for TF2, but in my opinion, it's okay to leave that part of the operation up to smaller organizers like RGB.

Also ETF2L would be interesting, although I admittedly know fairly little about their league.

Personally I think ESL is the way to go. They're the largest and most experienced league that could put up the largest prize pools. The only thing they're not the prime choice for is putting up LAN events for TF2, but in my opinion, it's okay to leave that part of the operation up to smaller organizers like RGB.

Also ETF2L would be interesting, although I admittedly know fairly little about their league.
60
#60
5 Frags +

that sounds like statements from actual sports federation with the corporate bs along the lines of "we got a lot out of it(but what?) and "we look forward to help tf2 grow"

Maybe tf2 is becoming big after all

that sounds like statements from actual sports federation with the corporate bs along the lines of "we got a lot out of it(but what?) and "we look forward to help tf2 grow"

Maybe tf2 is becoming big after all
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