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Valve and Competitive TF2
posted in News
571
#571
0 Frags +
Mapleyou just get to a point where a scout will be the best option the majority of the time.

hence the one player limit on each class, meaning 2 scouts would be disallowed. you are right about the cycle not actually cycling, but worse than the 5th always being scout and therefore essentially going back to 6s, the 5th would in most cases be either a sniper or a heavy, depending on context. and no one wants to play against full time sniper, much less heavy (especially in matchmaking where successfully focusing a heavy would be near impossible). heavy/sniper would probably be so viable that i could easily see the scout offclassing to the other as well, and engineer/pyro on lasts.

[quote=Maple]you just get to a point where a scout will be the best option the majority of the time.[/quote]
hence the one player limit on each class, meaning 2 scouts would be disallowed. you are right about the cycle not actually cycling, but worse than the 5th always being scout and therefore essentially going back to 6s, the 5th would in most cases be either a sniper or a heavy, depending on context. and no one wants to play against full time sniper, much less heavy (especially in matchmaking where successfully focusing a heavy would be near impossible). heavy/sniper would probably be so viable that i could easily see the scout offclassing to the other as well, and engineer/pyro on lasts.
572
#572
8 Frags +

The way the classes are inherently designed in TF2 is that some classes are generally better overall while other classes are better for niche purposes. The classes that are better overall tend to be combat classes capable of winning 1v1's against every class except possibly themselves. Given this, there is some sense in having the generalist classes having a class limit of 2 while all others have a limit of 1, because these classes will be used in general purposes. This also serves to prevent unbeatable last holds with either two heavies or two engies. If valve chooses to go in this direction, the class selection screen should be reorganized into different categories: Combat, Support, Pick, and Defense, where combat includes scout soldier, support includes demo medic, pick (or some better title) includes spy and sniper and defense includes pyro, heavy and engineer. Players would be more accustomed to what these classes would do simply by having the classes be organized in this manner and it would make more sense than the current system.

I think 6v6 currently provides some pretty strong groundwork for a solid system in TF2 and valve should attempt to support it in a manner that makes sense; there is nothing wrong with 6v6 and a lot of players currently unaware to the gameplay and the metagame just need to be primed and prepared for it.

The way the classes are inherently designed in TF2 is that some classes are generally better overall while other classes are better for niche purposes. The classes that are better overall tend to be combat classes capable of winning 1v1's against every class except possibly themselves. Given this, there is some sense in having the generalist classes having a class limit of 2 while all others have a limit of 1, because these classes will be used in general purposes. This also serves to prevent unbeatable last holds with either two heavies or two engies. If valve chooses to go in this direction, the class selection screen should be reorganized into different categories: Combat, Support, Pick, and Defense, where combat includes scout soldier, support includes demo medic, pick (or some better title) includes spy and sniper and defense includes pyro, heavy and engineer. Players would be more accustomed to what these classes would do simply by having the classes be organized in this manner and it would make more sense than the current system.

I think 6v6 currently provides some pretty strong groundwork for a solid system in TF2 and valve should attempt to support it in a manner that makes sense; there is nothing wrong with 6v6 and a lot of players currently unaware to the gameplay and the metagame just need to be primed and prepared for it.
573
#573
26 Frags +

My gut feeling is that having those expendable scouts and soldiers on your team is what makes the game dynamic and exciting.

They can afford to make the risky plays because they come in duplicate. Only having one of each sounds like a total grind where pushing becomes less and less the favourable option.

Suddenly when half your team is slow as fuck aggressive holds become a huge gamble, because the window of time for transitioning between good positions is even larger.

Your only soldier died? OK I guess we can't control a choke point or pressure the enemy medic for 20 seconds. What is our play? Hold or retreat.

Your only scout died? OK we can't chase down weak players or backcap for 20 seconds. What is our play? Hold or retreat.

Even though we have two scout and two soldiers all four of those players tend to play very distinct roles in the prevalent passive/aggressive pocket/roamer setup. When you start replacing those roles with the ridge utility classes a lot of your teams decisions become binary choices because they are painfully ineffective in the majority of situations.

My gut feeling is that having those expendable scouts and soldiers on your team is what makes the game dynamic and exciting.

They can afford to make the risky plays because they come in duplicate. Only having one of each sounds like a total grind where pushing becomes less and less the favourable option.

Suddenly when half your team is slow as fuck aggressive holds become a huge gamble, because the window of time for transitioning between good positions is even larger.

Your only soldier died? OK I guess we can't control a choke point or pressure the enemy medic for 20 seconds. What is our play? Hold or retreat.

Your only scout died? OK we can't chase down weak players or backcap for 20 seconds. What is our play? Hold or retreat.

Even though we have two scout and two soldiers all four of those players tend to play very distinct roles in the prevalent passive/aggressive pocket/roamer setup. When you start replacing those roles with the ridge utility classes a lot of your teams decisions become binary choices because they are painfully ineffective in the majority of situations.
574
#574
7 Frags +

Honestly, I think it is far less complex than all of this discussion about class limits and stuff like that. When MvM was released there were no class limits, no weapon bans, and no established meta game. But now not only is there an expected class composition that is rarely deviated from, but there are accepted weapons and even an accepted order of upgrade purchases for a lot of the classes (though there is more deviation accepted in upgrades than in the other areas).

When it was new people learned this through experimentation, then from getting matched with people who had more experience, reading online guides, or watching streams. People learned the expected classes, they learned the accepted weapons, they learned the rolls that each class fills, and they learned the most effective order of upgrade purchases. And such, there is always the occasional new player who doesn't understand. Often they are kicked outright, or someone takes the time to teach them. Or they keep trying and failing until they learn in the same way that everyone before them learned.

And sometimes there is the experienced player who pulls out a less used class because they have discovered a way to make it viable, and often they are still expected to perform or their team will ask them to switch (or, more often, they will switch or leave on their own).

I think 6s can work without hard coded limits on class and team composition. I think that the same basic reasoning the allowed this format to refine itself to the current meta will still apply (mobility, more than anything else, wins in this game right now - ability to kite, to chase, to dodge, to quickly change position in in a hold or transition). Add to that the stream integration, the easy access to strong examples of the strength of that format and casual players will gravitate towards it.

If you want to be certain, cue with teammates, or friends. Stomp matches with the familiar classes and team composition. Players will, by nature, emulate the things they see working in streams or the things that they are beaten by first hand.

I'd like to believe that the meta that has existed for so many years already is not just the product of arbitrary bans and class limits. And I'd like to believe that regardless of how broken some of the weapons in tf2 currently are they will not be over powered enough that 6 random players can be expected to beat a group of 6 already veteran players adding up together.

Honestly, I think it is far less complex than all of this discussion about class limits and stuff like that. When MvM was released there were no class limits, no weapon bans, and no established meta game. But now not only is there an expected class composition that is rarely deviated from, but there are accepted weapons and even an accepted order of upgrade purchases for a lot of the classes (though there is more deviation accepted in upgrades than in the other areas).

When it was new people learned this through experimentation, then from getting matched with people who had more experience, reading online guides, or watching streams. People learned the expected classes, they learned the accepted weapons, they learned the rolls that each class fills, and they learned the most effective order of upgrade purchases. And such, there is always the occasional new player who doesn't understand. Often they are kicked outright, or someone takes the time to teach them. Or they keep trying and failing until they learn in the same way that everyone before them learned.

And sometimes there is the experienced player who pulls out a less used class because they have discovered a way to make it viable, and often they are still expected to perform or their team will ask them to switch (or, more often, they will switch or leave on their own).

I think 6s can work without hard coded limits on class and team composition. I think that the same basic reasoning the allowed this format to refine itself to the current meta will still apply (mobility, more than anything else, wins in this game right now - ability to kite, to chase, to dodge, to quickly change position in in a hold or transition). Add to that the stream integration, the easy access to strong examples of the strength of that format and casual players will gravitate towards it.

If you want to be certain, cue with teammates, or friends. Stomp matches with the familiar classes and team composition. Players will, by nature, emulate the things they see working in streams or the things that they are beaten by first hand.

I'd like to believe that the meta that has existed for so many years already is not just the product of arbitrary bans and class limits. And I'd like to believe that regardless of how broken some of the weapons in tf2 currently are they will not be over powered enough that 6 random players can be expected to beat a group of 6 already veteran players adding up together.
575
#575
8 Frags +

The problem with lack of class limits is that the composition we are used to in 6s isn't the most powerfull one if you remove class restrictions. We will be seing teams with 2 medics, 3 soldiers, 2 demos... which are too strong and might remove a lot of the fun we have in 6s. So you can say bye bye to our meta and welcome to the double-ubers-teams-that-will-make-the-game-not-fun overlords.

I like the idea of limiting 2 of each offensive classes and 1 of each support and defensive classes.

The problem with lack of class limits is that the composition we are used to in 6s isn't the most powerfull one if you remove class restrictions. We will be seing teams with 2 medics, 3 soldiers, 2 demos... which are too strong and might remove a lot of the fun we have in 6s. So you can say bye bye to our meta and welcome to the double-ubers-teams-that-will-make-the-game-not-fun overlords.

I like the idea of limiting 2 of each offensive classes and 1 of each support and defensive classes.
576
#576
4 Frags +
DougThe problem with lack of class limits is that the composition we are used to in 6s isn't the most powerfull one if you remove class restrictions. We will be seing teams with 2 medics, 3 soldiers, 2 demos... which are too strong and might remove a lot of the fun we have in 6s. So you can say bye bye to our meta and welcome to the double-ubers-teams-that-will-make-the-game-not-fun overlords.

I like the idea of limiting 2 of each offensive classes and 1 of each support and defensive classes.

I'm not trying to theory craft what the strongest composition would be without class limits (though I am still inclined to believe that, at least in the current world of tf2, scouts are too strong for good teams to cut them in favor of another soldier or even another medic. I've no doubt that without class limits we would see more dynamic class changing, the creation of pocket strats that use unexpected combinations, and things of that nature. But at the end of the day, I think the current spread is likely the most ideal composition you could have for a generalist role).

At the end of the day, valve is going to want simple and easy to understand. Creating a whole system of coded logic around class limits, and when/how often you can off class. That would be a nightmare to code, and worse it would create potential obstacles to entry for new players.

I can't pretend to know what valve would do. But speaking as a programmer I could not imagine anything but the most simplistic of class limits/weapon bans making it into the first iterations of the match making system. After that, maybe more complexity can be added if the system proves ineffective, or if the meta that evolves is too static/stalemate-y to create good, interesting games.

[quote=Doug]The problem with lack of class limits is that the composition we are used to in 6s isn't the most powerfull one if you remove class restrictions. We will be seing teams with 2 medics, 3 soldiers, 2 demos... which are too strong and might remove a lot of the fun we have in 6s. So you can say bye bye to our meta and welcome to the double-ubers-teams-that-will-make-the-game-not-fun overlords.

I like the idea of limiting 2 of each offensive classes and 1 of each support and defensive classes.[/quote]

I'm not trying to theory craft what the strongest composition would be without class limits (though I am still inclined to believe that, at least in the current world of tf2, scouts are too strong for good teams to cut them in favor of another soldier or even another medic. I've no doubt that without class limits we would see more dynamic class changing, the creation of pocket strats that use unexpected combinations, and things of that nature. But at the end of the day, I think the current spread is likely the most ideal composition you could have for a generalist role).

At the end of the day, valve is going to want simple and easy to understand. Creating a whole system of coded logic around class limits, and when/how often you can off class. That would be a nightmare to code, and worse it would create potential obstacles to entry for new players.

I can't pretend to know what valve would do. But speaking as a programmer I could not imagine anything but the most simplistic of class limits/weapon bans making it into the first iterations of the match making system. After that, maybe more complexity can be added if the system proves ineffective, or if the meta that evolves is too static/stalemate-y to create good, interesting games.
577
#577
4 Frags +

6 demos. It's over

6 demos. It's over
578
#578
3 Frags +

the worst rational case is that we get classlimits of 2 across the board

if they're even above that, then... god help us all

the worst rational case is that we get classlimits of 2 across the board

if they're even above that, then... god help us all
579
#579
7 Frags +

One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.

One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.
580
#580
3 Frags +
_In_Sanity-snip-

The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.

ComangliaOne of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.

If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, Aztec).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.

[quote=_In_Sanity]-snip-[/quote]
The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.

[quote=Comanglia]One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.[/quote]
If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAGj_Mwk5E]Aztec[/url]).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.
581
#581
2 Frags +
DougComangliaOne of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, Aztec).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.

Right but they do also update antiquated maps that where in competitive example de_train
which ctf_2fort, ctf_turbine, cp_gravelpit do meet that criteria. I doubt ctf_2fort could be changed to be enjoyable on a competitive level but turbine has potential. I already enjoy gravelpit so I think that one is fairly likely. Also yukon, coldfront, etc.

[quote=Doug]
[quote=Comanglia]One of the things I'm most excited about and that really hasn't been mentioned, that with the new match making we'll probably see a bunch of either new maps or map improvements. Keep in mind cp_gorge, ctf_turbine, ctf_2fort, ctf_doublecross, cp_foundry and other maps that weren't really suited for competitive before might get completely reworked.[/quote]
If you use CSGO as an example, Valve realizes people will only play de_ maps in competitive, so even though you are able to play cs_ maps in competitive matchmaking, they don't care if the maps are good for that mode. They don't even care to fix some de_ maps that aren't played in leagues (I'm looking at you, [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAGj_Mwk5E]Aztec[/url]).

One thing I believe they could do is make viaduct pro the official one.[/quote]

Right but they do also update antiquated maps that where in competitive example de_train
which ctf_2fort, ctf_turbine, cp_gravelpit do meet that criteria. I doubt ctf_2fort could be changed to be enjoyable on a competitive level but turbine has potential. I already enjoy gravelpit so I think that one is fairly likely. Also yukon, coldfront, etc.
582
#582
4 Frags +
Doug_In_Sanity-snip-The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.

I think the point that makes me doubt that these kind of strats would be as effective as people think (at least at higher levels... in the lower ranks I expect teams with multiple medics and heavies would be stupidly strong... but that would not last as the average skill of players increases through the ranks) is that you aren't just adding this additional medic or demo, you are removing one of the other classes as well.

Sure a second medic would be strong in terms of more uber potential and increased heals. But the extra medic is also removing a lot of mobility and damage potential. Meaning that if the other team is able to effectively focus down players during off uber pushes, then they would be at a fairly big advantage. Additionally you would be losing the versatility of the more expendable classes... sending in a scout or soldier is a lot less effective if you don't have another one available.

Same for a second demo. You are gaining more area control (which a sniper can already give you more easily than another set of sticky traps) and more general damage. But it is costing you in terms of 1v1 engagements which the demo is terrible at.

Then there is the question of what you trade. Do you remove the roamer, and create the need for more heals across the entire team (roamer is viable because of the ability to self sustain, a second demo would not be so heal independent). Or do you drop a scout, and lose the ability to capitalize on the increased damage output.

I don't for a moment think that we will not see these kinds of compositions come out for specific pushes or holds. And I expect as they are used valve will make adjustments (either to the class or to the format) that help to balance things out. But I do think that in terms of general usefulness these compositions are going to bring weaknesses that can be exploited... and that is sort of what makes a competitive game interesting. It would stop being a matter of who plays the 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, and 1 medic style of tf2 better. We've seen that game, and the answer is Froyo (and has been for a very long time). And it would start becoming a question of which team can more quickly recognize and effectively exploit weaknesses in the other team.

So long as every class still has a counter, and that counter remains viable, I think that the game will remain interesting and dynamic.

[quote=Doug][quote=_In_Sanity]-snip-[/quote]
The biggest problem I believe we would face is 2 medics. A team would be able to get 2 ~6 seconds uber and push with 4 invulnerable combat classes. That would make pushing broken and 6s not fun.

Also, 2 or more demomen can shutdown an entire area with traps.[/quote]

I think the point that makes me doubt that these kind of strats would be as effective as people think (at least at higher levels... in the lower ranks I expect teams with multiple medics and heavies would be stupidly strong... but that would not last as the average skill of players increases through the ranks) is that you aren't just adding this additional medic or demo, you are removing one of the other classes as well.

Sure a second medic would be strong in terms of more uber potential and increased heals. But the extra medic is also removing a lot of mobility and damage potential. Meaning that if the other team is able to effectively focus down players during off uber pushes, then they would be at a fairly big advantage. Additionally you would be losing the versatility of the more expendable classes... sending in a scout or soldier is a lot less effective if you don't have another one available.

Same for a second demo. You are gaining more area control (which a sniper can already give you more easily than another set of sticky traps) and more general damage. But it is costing you in terms of 1v1 engagements which the demo is terrible at.

Then there is the question of what you trade. Do you remove the roamer, and create the need for more heals across the entire team (roamer is viable because of the ability to self sustain, a second demo would not be so heal independent). Or do you drop a scout, and lose the ability to capitalize on the increased damage output.

I don't for a moment think that we will not see these kinds of compositions come out for specific pushes or holds. And I expect as they are used valve will make adjustments (either to the class or to the format) that help to balance things out. But I do think that in terms of general usefulness these compositions are going to bring weaknesses that can be exploited... and that is sort of what makes a competitive game interesting. It would stop being a matter of who plays the 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, 1 demo, and 1 medic style of tf2 better. We've seen that game, and the answer is Froyo (and has been for a very long time). And it would start becoming a question of which team can more quickly recognize and effectively exploit weaknesses in the other team.

So long as every class still has a counter, and that counter remains viable, I think that the game will remain interesting and dynamic.
583
#583
1 Frags +

Apparently Valve is going to focus on 5cp maps(?)

I asked B4nny during a stream, that was his reply.
No idea what was discussed about maps at Valve though. I don't remember it being brought up during Fully Charged.
I wouldn't mind koth maps being included.
I personally don't like the idea of ctf and attack/defend in comp though.

Apparently Valve is going to focus on 5cp maps(?)

I asked B4nny during a stream, that was his reply.
No idea what was discussed about maps at Valve though. I don't remember it being brought up during Fully Charged.
I wouldn't mind koth maps being included.
I personally don't like the idea of ctf and attack/defend in comp though.
584
#584
26 Frags +

Looks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs

Looks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/youtube]
585
#585
7 Frags +

YES! :D

YES! :D
586
#586
0 Frags +

Sort of unrelated question: when's i55?

Sort of unrelated question: when's i55?
587
#587
5 Frags +
aimanfireSort of unrelated question: when's i55?

August 28-30th, google is your friend

[quote=aimanfire]Sort of unrelated question: when's i55?[/quote]

August 28-30th, google is your friend
588
#588
1 Frags +

I second everything _In_Sanity says, but I have to add, again, only time will tell the best meta if everything is truly open.

I second everything _In_Sanity says, but I have to add, again, only time will tell the best meta if everything is truly open.
589
#589
-42 Frags +

Celebrate ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Celebrate ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
590
#590
8 Frags +

Does that mean TF2GAMES is dead now?

Does that mean TF2GAMES is dead now?
591
#591
0 Frags +

Ogreasmic.

Ogreasmic.
592
#592
8 Frags +
deetrLooks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs

dude that codec is so good, it literally sounds like mumble/teamspeak

[quote=deetr]Looks like the new voice codec in CSGO has almost no delay, so if they implement that we probably don't need to worry about in game voice being shitty

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52VAZEYtgs[/youtube][/quote]


dude that codec is so good, it literally sounds like mumble/teamspeak
593
#593
-43 Frags +

Has anyone checked out the hud called budhud? It might have leaked something of the competitive update and that they're gonna have a 6v6 and 9v9 (highlander) leaderboard, along with a MvM-like menu where you choose something. BTW, they might make people pay for the competitive scene! :(. I don't have any pictures of the menu, but I'll try to get some, but I do have the hud here if you want to put it on TF2 and see it for yourself: http://www.teamfortress.tv/20214/budhud

Has anyone checked out the hud called budhud? It might have leaked something of the competitive update and that they're gonna have a 6v6 and 9v9 (highlander) leaderboard, along with a MvM-like menu where you choose something. BTW, they might make people pay for the competitive scene! :(. I don't have any pictures of the menu, but I'll try to get some, but I do have the hud here if you want to put it on TF2 and see it for yourself: http://www.teamfortress.tv/20214/budhud
594
#594
11 Frags +

We've already had some discussion threads on that, Unit. It's old news to most of us, and it has nothing to do with budhud.

We've already had some discussion threads on that, Unit. It's old news to most of us, and it has nothing to do with budhud.
595
#595
38 Frags +

bump for funs and giggles
all this hype and excitement down the drain makes me sad, so much hope for this game

bump for funs and giggles
all this hype and excitement down the drain makes me sad, so much hope for this game
596
#596
38 Frags +

mindblowing competitive mode, in the bad way
im surprised they got rid of the big "BETA" letters. they still belong there.

mindblowing competitive mode, in the bad way
im surprised they got rid of the big "BETA" letters. they still belong there.
597
#597
26 Frags +

most disappointing update tf2's ever had, hopefully valve can pull something out of their ass and fix it

it's not looking good right now

most disappointing update tf2's ever had, hopefully valve can pull something out of their ass and fix it

it's not looking good right now
598
#598
-16 Frags +

Rip TF2 2007-2019

Rip TF2 2007-2019
599
#599
37 Frags +
Show Content
[spoiler][img]http://image.prntscr.com/image/2b55b7cf7e5a465b9ccd67ddc1d7aee1.png[/img][/spoiler]
600
#600
19 Frags +
treetoon
Show Content

How to correctly necro a thread.

[quote=treetoon][spoiler][img]http://image.prntscr.com/image/2b55b7cf7e5a465b9ccd67ddc1d7aee1.png[/img][/spoiler][/quote]
How to correctly necro a thread.
1 ⋅⋅ 17 18 19 20
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